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This is quite an old idea, but with a fresh, glittery new paint job.
Who is going to oversee the distribution of resources and ensure it remains fair throughout the world?
Quite a deserving post on the first page. Tell me who are these angels whose only job title is to go throughout the earth making sure everybody's fed, clothed, and happy? Next, your currency is in political favors to get more than your fair share, etc. And no amount of futuristic robotic technology is going to cure humankind of wanting more than already obtained.
technology would move at a faster pace because there would be no money restrictions...
Where is your workforce speeding this along? The world does not organize itself to speed technological development suddenly when money is removed? Do you picture a long line of smiling, healthy workers walking into the large factory churning out brighter and better machines? Or do we have magic robots coming along to do that as well?
I get that there's a lot of guys out there with a laundry list of complaints about capitalism and monetary policy. However, you don't throw that away as some heavy burden and suddenly there's sunshine and butterflies. The advice offered is to replace a currency system, with all its flaws, and go to something with a host of worse, debilitating problems, deciding to pleasantly ignore all that. The assumption is that ANYTHING but money would be better than money.
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On May 06 2012 15:50 xeo1 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2012 09:28 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 06 2012 09:07 DeliCiousVP wrote:
Technology is what brings us welfare not opinions not markets not ideals and not self serving human behaviour. They assumed the guy who discovered the cure for pollio would patent it because thats how capitalistic the society was back then, He just scuffed and said ofc im giving it for free to everyone. What's your point? It's not that zero new technology will be created its that technology would move at a slower pace. The profit motive behind new cures pours billions into research. Professors and researchers that come up with new technology and cures often start their own companies to make progress happen quicker. That's why Cambridge, MA is so full of VC funded biotech firms. Super smart people at MIT and Harvard come up with new technology then start their own companies to get the funding they need and bring the technology to market faster. Here's an example: Donald Sadoway developed a new grid scale battery at MIT to make renewable energy work better. Here's his story: http://www.ted.com/talks/donald_sadoway_the_missing_link_to_renewable_energy.htmlAnd here's the company he started to make to happen: http://lmbcorporation.com/ technology would move at a faster pace because there would be no money restrictions...
There would still be resource restrictions.
And there's more to creating a useful product than just random technology. Companies help engineers and scientists do that.
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We're not there yet technologically to have machines feed/clothe us. Not even close! And there will still need to be
people performing work even after machines can do 90% of the job. The question is, what will compel them to do said work? Who will be unfortunate enough to be performing it on a beautiful sunny afternoon when the rest of the world is out engaging in utopian orgies in their pleasure domes?
Nevertheless I think abolishing currency and trying to organize society along other lines could definitely be possible! I think an experiment should be set up on a small privately owned island somewhere...
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there will be ALWAYS some kind of currency, whether it be money, resources, time, influence, whatever. How can the whole world collectively own something? Who distributes the resources? Who keeps the people in check? If everything was free, people would indulge in the most extreme excesses. To prevent this, there would need to be a governing body. Now we got people in charge... who are human (ie. communism).
If there was an unhackable, unmodifiable, AI that oversees distribution or something, it could possibly work. But we all know there cant be an AI at the top. There would need to be someone with higher access. Not to mention that the resource quotient would simply replace money as the new currency.
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@gameguard: People tend to conflate the money form, debt economy, and finance capital all together as "money," so their polemic is a bit misplaced and nebulous.
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a global shift is coming whether you realize it or not. the masses are getting angry.
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That's why all these so-called "revolutionaries" need to actually start thinking about a real program and shift the rhetoric from empty populism.
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On May 06 2012 17:09 xeo1 wrote:
a global shift is coming whether you realize it or not. the masses are getting angry.
Cool story lets stick to facts and data. Whether or not you think there is a global shift is irrelevant because it is not an argument. Should put up a poll regarding this on the front page so people can vote.
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In a world without money, where everything is supposedly free, can I own a car? Someone will build it for me paint it the color I want, put in the engine I want? Can I go out one day and get 10 cars for free to hold my own personal destruction derby? If not, will I be able to build my own cars so that such a derby may be held? Who will supply me the parts I need? Will I be allowed to mine the iron ore and construct the machines I need to make this happen? Can I own an iron deposit? Can I own the land I need to hold my derby? I really like destruction derbies.
Will a bronze-league Starcraft professional have access to the same amount of goods as a heart surgeon? If I don't feel like working, will I have access to the same amount of goods as everyone else? If not, who will decide what work is more valuable than other work, and what unit of measurement will be used to express this extra worth?
Will retail stores exist? Can I have everything they have in there? If not, will I be allowed to trade my goods for other goods? If not, who will stop me?
Will there be multiple designs of the same product type? If I want those cars for my derby, can I choose from more than one model? If not, will this model be more like a KIA or a lamborghini? Who decides what models are worth making? Are all models equally free?
Can I start my own business? What incentive would I have to start a business? What do I get in return, if not money? If my business is really innovative and succesful, will I be allowed to own more lamborghinis for my destruction derby?
Will there be prostitutes?
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On May 06 2012 18:11 Crushinator wrote:
Are all models equally free?
All models are free, but some are more free than others.
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On May 06 2012 18:11 Crushinator wrote:
In a world without money, where everything is supposedly free, can I own a car? Someone will build it for me paint it the color I want, put in the engine I want? Can I go out one day and get 10 cars for free to hold my own personal destruction derby? If not, will I be able to build my own cars so that such a derby may be held? Who will supply me the parts I need? Will I be allowed to mine the iron ore and construct the machines I need to make this happen? Can I own an iron deposit? Can I own the land I need to hold my derby? I really like destruction derbies.
Will a bronze-league Starcraft professional have access to the same amount of goods as a heart surgeon? If I don't feel like working, will I have access to the same amount of goods as everyone else? If not, who will decide what work is more valuable than other work, and what unit of measurement will be used to express this extra worth?
Will retail stores exist? Can I have everything they have in there? If not, will I be allowed to trade my goods for other goods? If not, who will stop me?
Will there be multiple designs of the same product type? If I want those cars for my derby, can I choose from more than one model? If not, will this model be more like a KIA or a lamborghini? Who decides what models are worth making? Are all models equally free?
Can I start my own business? What incentive would I have to start a business? What do I get in return, if not money? If my business is really innovative and succesful, will I be allowed to own more lamborghinis for my destruction derby?
Will there be prostitutes?
Lmfao how would prostitution work in this money-less "resource based economy."
I feel like some people are gonna have an unfair advantage in their access to the "prostitute resource," while others will be at a constant shortage...
How can this world of tomorrow fix this problem?
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On May 06 2012 18:19 Kiarip wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2012 18:11 Crushinator wrote:
In a world without money, where everything is supposedly free, can I own a car? Someone will build it for me paint it the color I want, put in the engine I want? Can I go out one day and get 10 cars for free to hold my own personal destruction derby? If not, will I be able to build my own cars so that such a derby may be held? Who will supply me the parts I need? Will I be allowed to mine the iron ore and construct the machines I need to make this happen? Can I own an iron deposit? Can I own the land I need to hold my derby? I really like destruction derbies.
Will a bronze-league Starcraft professional have access to the same amount of goods as a heart surgeon? If I don't feel like working, will I have access to the same amount of goods as everyone else? If not, who will decide what work is more valuable than other work, and what unit of measurement will be used to express this extra worth?
Will retail stores exist? Can I have everything they have in there? If not, will I be allowed to trade my goods for other goods? If not, who will stop me?
Will there be multiple designs of the same product type? If I want those cars for my derby, can I choose from more than one model? If not, will this model be more like a KIA or a lamborghini? Who decides what models are worth making? Are all models equally free?
Can I start my own business? What incentive would I have to start a business? What do I get in return, if not money? If my business is really innovative and succesful, will I be allowed to own more lamborghinis for my destruction derby?
Will there be prostitutes? Lmfao how would prostitution work in this money-less "resource based economy." I feel like some people are gonna have an unfair advantage in their access to the "prostitute resource," while others will be at a constant shortage... How can this world of tomorrow fix this problem?
It makes you wonder doesn't it. Lets say the supply of prostitutes is smaller than the demand for them. And lets say a supercomputer A.I. is in charge of distributing the supply of prostitues fairly among the needy. And, hell why not, lets say Angelina Jolie, for the good of humanity, decides to become a prostitute in this new world. Will the supercomputer realize the extra value of Angelina Jolie over a fat ugly one? How will it express this value? I find that funny.
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Some answers seem to imply that this proposal does not want to substitute money with resources.. but that's exactly what it does. It's the one limit you physically have, raw materials.
I think there will be robotic prostitutes. Humans might have sex for fun or reproduction, but the concept of doing it as a job, or doing any job because you need to survive, is not within this model. In the words of Picard people will work to improve themselves and the society they live in, not to earn money, so sorry no human prostitute for you.
In a world without money, where everything is supposedly free, can I own a car? Someone will build it for me paint it the color I want, put in the engine I want? Can I go out one day and get 10 cars for free to hold my own personal destruction derby? If not, will I be able to build my own cars so that such a derby may be held? Who will supply me the parts I need? Will I be allowed to mine the iron ore and construct the machines I need to make this happen? Can I own an iron deposit? Can I own the land I need to hold my derby? I really like destruction derbies.
Yeah everyone can own a car, since you get your share of resources. Even a nice big car, i guess then your home will be smaller. You can't get cars for free, you use up resources.. you can destroy your car over and over again since you can then recycle the materials and build a new one (adding in the non-recyclable materials from your resource quote).
You cannot own a iron deposit. To make a modern analogy, it's like someone wanting to own a money printing machine.
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On May 06 2012 18:39 Crushinator wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2012 18:19 Kiarip wrote:On May 06 2012 18:11 Crushinator wrote:
In a world without money, where everything is supposedly free, can I own a car? Someone will build it for me paint it the color I want, put in the engine I want? Can I go out one day and get 10 cars for free to hold my own personal destruction derby? If not, will I be able to build my own cars so that such a derby may be held? Who will supply me the parts I need? Will I be allowed to mine the iron ore and construct the machines I need to make this happen? Can I own an iron deposit? Can I own the land I need to hold my derby? I really like destruction derbies.
Will a bronze-league Starcraft professional have access to the same amount of goods as a heart surgeon? If I don't feel like working, will I have access to the same amount of goods as everyone else? If not, who will decide what work is more valuable than other work, and what unit of measurement will be used to express this extra worth?
Will retail stores exist? Can I have everything they have in there? If not, will I be allowed to trade my goods for other goods? If not, who will stop me?
Will there be multiple designs of the same product type? If I want those cars for my derby, can I choose from more than one model? If not, will this model be more like a KIA or a lamborghini? Who decides what models are worth making? Are all models equally free?
Can I start my own business? What incentive would I have to start a business? What do I get in return, if not money? If my business is really innovative and succesful, will I be allowed to own more lamborghinis for my destruction derby?
Will there be prostitutes? Lmfao how would prostitution work in this money-less "resource based economy." I feel like some people are gonna have an unfair advantage in their access to the "prostitute resource," while others will be at a constant shortage... How can this world of tomorrow fix this problem? It makes you wonder doesn't it. Lets say the supply of prostitutes is smaller than the demand for them. And lets say a supercomputer A.I. is in charge of distributing the supply of prostitues fairly among the needy. And, hell why not, lets say Angelina Jolie, for the good of humanity, decides to become a prostitute in this new world. Will the supercomputer realize the extra value of Angelina Jolie over a fat ugly one? How will it express this value? I find that funny.
I think we've found the ONE flaw with this system: Angelina Jolie being a free prostitute alone would bankrupt the resources and motivation of the New World.
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On May 06 2012 18:51 Ganondorf wrote:Some answers seem to imply that this proposal does not want to substitute money with resources.. but that's exactly what it does. It's the one limit you physically have, raw materials. I think there will be robotic prostitutes. Humans might have sex for fun or reproduction, but the concept of doing it as a job, or doing any job because you need to survive, is not within this model. In the words of Picard people will work to improve themselves and the society they live in, not to earn money, so sorry no human prostitute for you. Show nested quote +In a world without money, where everything is supposedly free, can I own a car? Someone will build it for me paint it the color I want, put in the engine I want? Can I go out one day and get 10 cars for free to hold my own personal destruction derby? If not, will I be able to build my own cars so that such a derby may be held? Who will supply me the parts I need? Will I be allowed to mine the iron ore and construct the machines I need to make this happen? Can I own an iron deposit? Can I own the land I need to hold my derby? I really like destruction derbies. Yeah everyone can own a car, since you get your share of resources. Even a nice big car, i guess then your home will be smaller. You can't get cars for free, you use up resources.. you can destroy your car over and over again since you can then recycle the materials and build a new one (adding in the non-recyclable materials from your resource quote). You cannot own a iron deposit. To make a modern analogy, it's like someone wanting to own a money printing machine.
How is the value of different resources expressed relative to eachother? I imagine every person will be allocated their fair share of iron and their fair share of bricks somehow. Will someone distribute pieces of paper that credit each individual with a certain amount of these resources? Can I trade my fair share of bricks with someone elses fair share of iron? What is stopping a certain resource credit from becoming money? Lets say everyone gets a credit to use up a certain amount of gold. What is stopping gold credits from becoming money?
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On May 06 2012 17:09 xeo1 wrote:
a global shift is coming whether you realize it or not. the masses are getting angry.
In this entire thread only 2(!!!) people seem to be arguing for the idea while the rest have provided facts on why its dumb and wont work. At the end this claim is what both of them end up saying when they have no counters and not to mention still no polls as it would only get 3-4 votes in favor.
Im for closing this thread as for the past 10 pages the 2 defenders of this idea have shown that they do not have facts to back up their claim and basically keep saying to us as a counter: "you are wrong, this will happen and there is nothing you can do to stop it".
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On May 06 2012 17:44 BlindKill wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2012 17:09 xeo1 wrote:
a global shift is coming whether you realize it or not. the masses are getting angry. Cool story lets stick to facts and data. Whether or not you think there is a global shift is irrelevant because it is not an argument. Should put up a poll regarding this on the front page so people can vote.
Religion threads generally aren't tolerated on TeamLiquid. And this guy sounds like a true believer. The proletariat will not suffer long the oppression of the bourgeoisie. The tide of the great uprising will sweep across the globe in anger and unity.
Honestly, the propaganda is so similar as to be comical. No, this is the true intellectual movement. No, this time we have found the one real way to free the common man, to bring equality to all. We have identified the core corruption in the system, and with that gone, everyone will skip and jump and have picnics and take their kids to the beach with new, cleaner oceans. Maybe spend a year in one of those communes (IC.org etc) and report back to us on their technological sophistication, etc.
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-So you get food / car / house for the amount of hours you are at work or doing something for society right ? or is it free and you get holidays for your work ? Does it mean that you buy things you like for your time ? woo isnt that the same thing ?
-what about sportsmen ? for gold medal they get better food or just glory ? (probably going too far here. sorry)
I just want to say that money =/= Evil / problems. We can easily build underwater city today. np.
BTW was I the only one who was looking for a donate button ? 
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On May 06 2012 19:01 Crushinator wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2012 18:51 Ganondorf wrote:Some answers seem to imply that this proposal does not want to substitute money with resources.. but that's exactly what it does. It's the one limit you physically have, raw materials. I think there will be robotic prostitutes. Humans might have sex for fun or reproduction, but the concept of doing it as a job, or doing any job because you need to survive, is not within this model. In the words of Picard people will work to improve themselves and the society they live in, not to earn money, so sorry no human prostitute for you. In a world without money, where everything is supposedly free, can I own a car? Someone will build it for me paint it the color I want, put in the engine I want? Can I go out one day and get 10 cars for free to hold my own personal destruction derby? If not, will I be able to build my own cars so that such a derby may be held? Who will supply me the parts I need? Will I be allowed to mine the iron ore and construct the machines I need to make this happen? Can I own an iron deposit? Can I own the land I need to hold my derby? I really like destruction derbies. Yeah everyone can own a car, since you get your share of resources. Even a nice big car, i guess then your home will be smaller. You can't get cars for free, you use up resources.. you can destroy your car over and over again since you can then recycle the materials and build a new one (adding in the non-recyclable materials from your resource quote). You cannot own a iron deposit. To make a modern analogy, it's like someone wanting to own a money printing machine. How is the value of different resources expressed relative to eachother? I imagine every person will be allocated their fair share of iron and their fair share of bricks somehow. Will someone distribute pieces of paper that credit each individual with a certain amount of these resources? Can I trade my fair share of bricks with someone elses fair share of iron? What is stopping a certain resource credit from becoming money? Lets say everyone gets a credit to use up a certain amount of gold. What is stopping gold credits from becoming money?
I wouldn't now argue about more details when most people seem to have misunderstood the proposal and just think anyone thinking it could remotely make sense is wrong and an idiot. Why are you asking if in a society without money, then you can have money ? You'll get goods, not resources, and you don't have to use them all up, now will you ask, can you trade goods ? Sure why not, but there's no real reason to do so. Same as before, why do you ask if in a society without human labor, then some humans can become prostitutes ? There is no money, no labor. If you're trolling, you're being repetitive. If there's no money and no labor, don't add them back in. That's the starting point. If it's too hard to understand, let's say everyone who wants to add money back to start profiting from other people, will go to jail. Of course, all jail guards are robots (before you again ask if humans can do that job. no they cannot). Good luck hacking those guards to get out.
I've yet to see someone criticizing this idea for what was really proposed and not for what they think it proposes, like communism or a society without money but then you add money back..
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On May 06 2012 19:18 NIIINO wrote:
-what about sportsmen ? for gold medal they get better food or just glory ? (probably going too far here. sorry)
Many sports of today bring no monetary gain, they in fact cause monetary losses for many players.
Take a lower GM player, probably spends 30 hours a week playing or doing things related to the game. Monetary gain is probably around $50 for that time. Go down to diamond and you have some people spending the same amount of time and gaining no money while having expenses in electricity, computer parts, the game itself, a place to play, internet and so on.
Basically, sports is done because it is fun, not because there is money in it.
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EPT
