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[SFW] Riddles / Puzzles / Brain Teasers - Page 31

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frogrubdown
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
1266 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-09 21:16:15
September 09 2012 21:12 GMT
#601
On September 10 2012 05:58 turtles wrote:
I have a clock with the hour hand pointing to 12.

If I move the hour hand forward by 5 hours it is at 5 O'clock, if I do this again it is at 10 O'clock, then 3 O'clock, then 8, 1, 6, 11, 4, 9, 2, 7 and then back again to 12 O'clock. Thus landing on every number on the clock once and only once.

Q1:
Which other numbers will this work for and what is the pattern?

Q2:
what about for a clock with M different positions where I move the hand by N positions each turn? prove that the pattern for Q1 is necessary and sufficient for the general case

Answers:
I forget... But I know that I have worked it out once. So if need be I could probably figure it out again.


+ Show Spoiler +

Ahh, this brings me back to my abstract algebra days/cyclic groups. All numbers that are relatively prime to 12 will do this, so 1,5,7, and 11. (to be relatively prime is to not share any divisors other than 1). The answer is the same for any M.

pf/
It follows easily that if they are relatively prime then it will go to every number. Here's the proof that it won't go to every number if they are not relatively prime.

You return to the original position in the clock whenever the number of moves you've made times the number you move by, n, is divisible by m, the total number of clock positions. Suppose m and n (everything here is a natural numbers s.t. m>n) have a common divisor, d. There exists d2 and d3 s.t. m=d(d2) and n=d(d3). Therefore, d2(n)=d(d2)(d3), which is divisible by m. Since d2<m, n returns to the original position in fewer than m moves meaning it couldn't have possibly gone to all m positions.

BajaBlood
Profile Joined August 2009
United States205 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-09 21:24:50
September 09 2012 21:21 GMT
#602
On September 10 2012 05:58 turtles wrote:
I have a clock with the hour hand pointing to 12.

If I move the hour hand forward by 5 hours it is at 5 O'clock, if I do this again it is at 10 O'clock, then 3 O'clock, then 8, 1, 6, 11, 4, 9, 2, 7 and then back again to 12 O'clock. Thus landing on every number on the clock once and only once.

Q1: Which other numbers will this work for and what is the pattern?

+ Show Spoiler +
Any prime number that is also not a non-trivial divisor (non-trivial divisor being a number 'n' that divides 'm' without leaving a remainder and isn't equal to 1 or m) of 12. That is:
1, 5, 7, 11 work.
2, 3 are prime but are non-trivial divisors of 12, so they do not work.
4, 6, 8, 9, 10, 12 are not prime, so they do not work.

On second thought, if you want to consider numbers outside of the range 1-M, then take the number modulo M then apply the above rule. 13 and 17 will work, as they mod 12 are 1 and 5, respectively, which both work.


On September 10 2012 05:58 turtles wrote:Q2: what about for a clock with M different positions where I move the hand by N positions each turn? prove that the pattern for Q1 is necessary and sufficient for the general case

+ Show Spoiler +
Same as above, but I don't have a proof. First take N mod M, then check to see if the remainder is a prime number that is not a non-trivial divisor of M


Edit: Fixed typo. Also got ninja'd by someone with an actual proof :D
CustomKal
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Canada749 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-09 21:41:14
September 09 2012 21:39 GMT
#603
On September 10 2012 05:58 turtles wrote:
I have a clock with the hour hand pointing to 12.

If I move the hour hand forward by 5 hours it is at 5 O'clock, if I do this again it is at 10 O'clock, then 3 O'clock, then 8, 1, 6, 11, 4, 9, 2, 7 and then back again to 12 O'clock. Thus landing on every number on the clock once and only once.

Q1:
Which other numbers will this work for and what is the pattern?

Q2:
what about for a clock with M different positions where I move the hand by N positions each turn? prove that the pattern for Q1 is necessary and sufficient for the general case

Answers:
I forget... But I know that I have worked it out once. So if need be I could probably figure it out again.


+ Show Spoiler +
I assume that the answer is simply move it ahead 1 hour at a time. This will always guarantee that it will work.

EDIT: Oh, numbers, not number. XD
Aragnis
Profile Joined April 2011
Australia17 Posts
September 14 2012 05:05 GMT
#604
On June 29 2012 12:34 calderon wrote:
if a plane was on a conveyor belt, trying to take off, but the conveyor belt would match the speed of the planes wheels PERFECTLY in the opposite direction, would the plane ever take off?

[image loading]


Yeah, this has been done to death, but I had to answer it anyway. Feel free to ignore if you're sick of the topic.

+ Show Spoiler +
It's a trick question. My answer is it depends, but if the plane did take off, it would not be in a good way.

First, let's note that the mythbusters clip is not directly relevent. In their formulation, they move the treadmill at the plane's takeoff speed, not at the wheel speed. The plane's engine provides thrust pushing against the air, the thrust easily overcomes the friction of the wheels on the treadmill (which, while higher than the usual friction of wheels on stationary ground, is still orders of magnitude smaller than the thrust the engines provide), the plane begins to move forward (at which point, the wheel speed exceeds the treadmill's speed), and when the plane reaches the necessary takeoff speed through the air, it takes off (at that point, the wheel speed is roughly double the treadmill's speed).

So we're going to need a treadmill that can go faster - several orders of magnitude faster - if it's to match the plane's wheel speed. The constraint that the treadmill's speed match the plane's wheel speed means that, as long as the wheels do not skid, the plane must remain stationary relative to the ground. The plane's thrust remains the same, and the thrust is provided by pushing against the air. So the treadmill must move so fast that the rolling resistance is equal to the thrust.

But there are physical limits to what the wheels can take (ignoring the physical limits of the conveyer belt setup, since that's already magical and arbitary). Those wheels aren't designed to turn at thousands of times their usual takeoff speeds. And with a treadmill moving that fast, the airspeed (relative to the stationary ground) isn't going to remain zero either. Let's consider both these effects, starting with the wheels.

Now, if the wheels fall off, then while they are still spinning (and the treadmill still moving backwards at super speed), the plane will collapse onto it's now wheelless undercarridge onto the treadmill. You will effectively be dropping your plane onto a spinning grinder. Bad news for the plane, and bad news for anyone standing anywhere nearby, as bits go flying. The plane will take off, but in pieces (and going backwards).

How might we make our wheels survive? Ordinarily, we would try to minimise rolling friction to allow for higher speeds, but here, that makes things worse. The lower the friction, the faster the wheels have to spin to generate enough backwards pull on the plane to match the engine's thrust (which we have to do in order to keep the plane stationary relative to the ground, which was shown earlier to be necessary to satisfy the problem's requirements). So lowering friction just leads to an even faster treadmill.

No, the trick is to go the other way. If we apply the plane's wheel brakes (and they are sufficiently strong), then the plane's wheel speed will remain 0 (and thus, the treadmill will also remain stationary). The problem then comes down to this: does the plane have sufficient thrust to skid the wheels? If so, can it reach takeoff speed with the wheels locked? If so, it will take off (after burning through a lot of wheel rubber - don't try this at home folks!). Most likely, it will not.

What about air movement? Could that make the plane take off? Well, that depends on something not specified in the problem - how big si the treadmill? There could be a short piece of treadmill under each wheel, or a massive treadmill stretching for miles ahead of the plane. Under short treadmill conditions (as are depicted), the treadmill speed required for this would not be reached until well after the wheels fell off or caught fire. But what about a large treadmill? You'd probably still suffer wheel failure before the airspeed got high enough, but let's suppose the wheels somehow survived; what would happen?

Well, the plane would liftoff. But the plane is still stationary relative to the ground at the moment of takeoff, and all of its airspeed comes from the treadmill-induced wind. This windspeed falls off rapidly with height. A few meters further up, the air is barely moving - and so is the plane. No airspeed means no lift, and also no control over the plane. It would gently nose-down and dive back into the wind, and into the ground. The best you could hope for would be a bumpy landing (slightly further forward from your starting point). The worst would be.. worse.
Jonoman92
Profile Blog Joined September 2006
United States9110 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-11-29 11:34:20
November 29 2012 00:56 GMT
#605
Figured I'd resurrect this rather than make a new thread. This is an inductive type problem I had pop up recently. I admit defeat. I don't know the answer so if you post be sure to provide a valid explanation!

[image loading]

edit: For clarification, the images are read left to right, and from the choices you are supposed to say what comes next.
G_G
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Canada178 Posts
November 29 2012 01:07 GMT
#606
At first I thought it might be that all the top ones can be drawn without removing pen from paper or tracing over an already drawn line, like this sort of thing:

+ Show Spoiler +


and that only one of the answers can also be done like that, but clearly that's wrong. Maybe I'm just missing something and someone else can carry this idea.
rei
Profile Blog Joined October 2002
United States3594 Posts
November 29 2012 01:09 GMT
#607
what's the question?
GET OUT OF MY BASE CHILL
HaruRH
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
Singapore2780 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-11-29 07:26:45
November 29 2012 01:43 GMT
#608
On November 29 2012 09:56 Jonoman92 wrote:
Figured I'd resurrect this rather than make a new thread. This is an inductive type problem I had pop up recently. I admit defeat. I don't know the answer so if you post be sure to provide a valid explanation!

[image loading]


My answer is
+ Show Spoiler +

A.
The given pictures have no recurring pattern/shape, thus we can assume that B, D and E can be ruled out.

But A or C? C can be ruled out because none of the shapes have only vertical/horizontal lines.

Did i do anything wrong?


edit: them spelling mistakes
It is fucking D4 and you are still alive as a CONFIRMED FUCKING TOWN. This is how fucking terrible scum thinks you are - Koshi
Cascade
Profile Blog Joined March 2006
Australia5405 Posts
November 29 2012 02:25 GMT
#609
On November 29 2012 09:56 Jonoman92 wrote:
Figured I'd resurrect this rather than make a new thread. This is an inductive type problem I had pop up recently. I admit defeat. I don't know the answer so if you post be sure to provide a valid explanation!

[image loading]

Not really sure... Is it a "what comes next" kind of problem, or "which is of the same type" kind? With "inductive", do you mean "what comes next"?

Only thing that comes to my mind at first is to count the number of cells in each figure: 4, 5, 1, 2, 3 after which I guess you would like a figure with 4 cells, ie B. But not convinced that is what they are after... You can essentially pick any of the alternatives and come up with some kind of motivation. are you supposed to be able to predict the shape of the next figure without seeing the alternatives? Or is it only "which of these alternatives makes sense"?
Jonoman92
Profile Blog Joined September 2006
United States9110 Posts
November 29 2012 11:36 GMT
#610
On November 29 2012 10:43 HaruRH wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 29 2012 09:56 Jonoman92 wrote:
Figured I'd resurrect this rather than make a new thread. This is an inductive type problem I had pop up recently. I admit defeat. I don't know the answer so if you post be sure to provide a valid explanation!

[image loading]


My answer is
+ Show Spoiler +

A.
The given pictures have no recurring pattern/shape, thus we can assume that B, D and E can be ruled out.

But A or C? C can be ruled out because none of the shapes have only vertical/horizontal lines.

Did i do anything wrong?


edit: them spelling mistakes


Ah yes, I should've looked for what wasn't there rather than what was there I suppose. I think your reasoning is correct.
CptZouglou
Profile Joined November 2011
France146 Posts
November 29 2012 12:15 GMT
#611
Generalized version of a classic one:

A hundred indians are captured by cowboys. The sadistic cowboys then play a game to decide which indians to kill: They carve one of the 12 zodiac symbols on each indian's back. Then, during the massacre day, the indians are put in line, and starting from the end of the queue, each indian is asked his symbol: if he can answer correctly, he will be saved.

From their long riddle experience, the indians knew a strategy to try and save as many as they could. How many can they save, and how ?

Notes:
- The indians cannot see their own symbol, and can only see the symbols of all the indians in front of them in the queue.
- The indians can only say one word when asked: the name of their symbol (they cannot communicate in any other way).
- When an indian say something, everyone else hears it
- Indians are smart
AmericanUmlaut
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Germany2597 Posts
November 29 2012 12:19 GMT
#612
+ Show Spoiler +
My guess is that it's a series of N shapes with N%5+1 (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5...) interior cells, and the segment we're seeing is starting at 4. So then we see 5, 1, 2, 3, and we should pick B, which has 4 interior cells.
The frumious Bandersnatch
AmericanUmlaut
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Germany2597 Posts
November 29 2012 12:23 GMT
#613
On November 29 2012 21:15 CptZouglou wrote:
Generalized version of a classic one:

A hundred indians are captured by cowboys. The sadistic cowboys then play a game to decide which indians to kill: They carve one of the 12 zodiac symbols on each indian's back. Then, during the massacre day, the indians are put in line, and starting from the end of the queue, each indian is asked his symbol: if he can answer correctly, he will be saved.

From their long riddle experience, the indians knew a strategy to try and save as many as they could. How many can they save, and how ?

Notes:
- The indians cannot see their own symbol, and can only see the symbols of all the indians in front of them in the queue.
- The indians can only say one word when asked: the name of their symbol (they cannot communicate in any other way).
- When an indian say something, everyone else hears it
- Indians are smart

I think you're missing some required information. As described, it's possible that every single Indian is marked with the same symbol, and no amount of information about the symbols marking other Indians is useful for deducing any given Indian's mark.
The frumious Bandersnatch
Ketch
Profile Joined October 2010
Netherlands7285 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-11-29 12:32:40
November 29 2012 12:28 GMT
#614
On November 29 2012 21:15 CptZouglou wrote:
Generalized version of a classic one:

A hundred indians are captured by cowboys. The sadistic cowboys then play a game to decide which indians to kill: They carve one of the 12 zodiac symbols on each indian's back. Then, during the massacre day, the indians are put in line, and starting from the end of the queue, each indian is asked his symbol: if he can answer correctly, he will be saved.

From their long riddle experience, the indians knew a strategy to try and save as many as they could. How many can they save, and how ?

Notes:
- The indians cannot see their own symbol, and can only see the symbols of all the indians in front of them in the queue.
- The indians can only say one word when asked: the name of their symbol (they cannot communicate in any other way).
- When an indian say something, everyone else hears it
- Indians are smart


Answer
+ Show Spoiler +
If I understand the riddle correctly, they will do the following:
First one will say symbol of person before him, Second one will say his own symbol to save himself. This goes on in pairs to the end, so 50 can be saved for sure. The indians sacrificing themselves however have a 1/12 chance that their symbol is the same as the one before them in the queue, so after them in the queue.

So the expected amount that is saved would be 50+ 50/12, this last part can obviously range from 1-50

There probably is a more optimal strategy, let me think about this some more .
Legionnaire
Profile Joined January 2003
Australia4515 Posts
November 29 2012 12:33 GMT
#615
They are all standing in line, and start talking from the back forwards. They say the symbol of the one in front. If they die, the one in front knows what their symbol is and says it, thus lives. The next one starts again, and says the one in front, etc etc. Thus 50% are instantly saved and the rest have a 1/12 chance of survival.

Is there a way to save all or all but 1?
My hope is one day stupid people will feel the same pain when they talk, as the pain the rest of us feel when we hear them. Twitter: @Legionnaire_au
CptZouglou
Profile Joined November 2011
France146 Posts
November 29 2012 12:43 GMT
#616
On November 29 2012 21:23 AmericanUmlaut wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 29 2012 21:15 CptZouglou wrote:
Generalized version of a classic one:

A hundred indians are captured by cowboys. The sadistic cowboys then play a game to decide which indians to kill: They carve one of the 12 zodiac symbols on each indian's back. Then, during the massacre day, the indians are put in line, and starting from the end of the queue, each indian is asked his symbol: if he can answer correctly, he will be saved.

From their long riddle experience, the indians knew a strategy to try and save as many as they could. How many can they save, and how ?

Notes:
- The indians cannot see their own symbol, and can only see the symbols of all the indians in front of them in the queue.
- The indians can only say one word when asked: the name of their symbol (they cannot communicate in any other way).
- When an indian say something, everyone else hears it
- Indians are smart

I think you're missing some required information. As described, it's possible that every single Indian is marked with the same symbol, and no amount of information about the symbols marking other Indians is useful for deducing any given Indian's mark.


Hmm, I believe it doesn't matter if every indian has the same symbol. Still the indians know from the start that there are 12 different possible symbols and know all the symbols (or maybe I'm missing something?)

There is a much better solution than 50%. All indians but one can be saved!
Bone_Idle
Profile Joined January 2004
Bulgaria40 Posts
November 29 2012 13:17 GMT
#617
On November 29 2012 09:56 Jonoman92 wrote:
Figured I'd resurrect this rather than make a new thread. This is an inductive type problem I had pop up recently. I admit defeat. I don't know the answer so if you post be sure to provide a valid explanation!

[image loading]

edit: For clarification, the images are read left to right, and from the choices you are supposed to say what comes next.


+ Show Spoiler +
I think it might be D.

The way I see it is that you need to look at how many triangles you can identify in each figure: the first has 4, the second 2, and the third and fourth have zero triangles. The fifth one also has 4 triangles implying a restart of the pattern (4,2,0,0). If the above logic makes any sense, than the correct answer should be D, as it has 2 triangles in it.
jaybrundage
Profile Joined December 2009
United States3921 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-11-29 13:44:03
November 29 2012 13:39 GMT
#618
On November 29 2012 09:56 Jonoman92 wrote:
Figured I'd resurrect this rather than make a new thread. This is an inductive type problem I had pop up recently. I admit defeat. I don't know the answer so if you post be sure to provide a valid explanation!

[image loading]

edit: For clarification, the images are read left to right, and from the choices you are supposed to say what comes next.

Seems pretty straight forward to me.
+ Show Spoiler +
I think the answer is B. The reason being that I think that you have to count the number of shapes in the picture in the first picture its 4 then 5 then 1 then 2 then 3 it would follow if you have a recouring pattern of 1 to 5 then the next number of shapes would be 4. B has four shapes. At least that's what i think :3
The more you sweat in training, the less you bleed in battle.
aseq
Profile Joined January 2003
Netherlands4019 Posts
November 29 2012 13:45 GMT
#619
On November 29 2012 21:15 CptZouglou wrote:
Generalized version of a classic one:

A hundred indians are captured by cowboys. The sadistic cowboys then play a game to decide which indians to kill: They carve one of the 12 zodiac symbols on each indian's back. Then, during the massacre day, the indians are put in line, and starting from the end of the queue, each indian is asked his symbol: if he can answer correctly, he will be saved.

From their long riddle experience, the indians knew a strategy to try and save as many as they could. How many can they save, and how ?

Notes:
- The indians cannot see their own symbol, and can only see the symbols of all the indians in front of them in the queue.
- The indians can only say one word when asked: the name of their symbol (they cannot communicate in any other way).
- When an indian say something, everyone else hears it
- Indians are smart


+ Show Spoiler +
They can try something like the following, although i'm not sure it's the easiest way:
They number the zodiac from 1 to 12 (are they allowed to do this?), or use their normal order if they know it. They then add all the amounts from all zodiacs they can see in front of them. Naturally, a mod 12 is used since you can't count further than 12. The back indian will answer the total of all the others and is sacrificed. The next one in line can calculate the difference between the number answered and his own calculated number, so he can save himself. The next one will subtract that number from the first, allowing him to know the difference between the total he calculated and total he counted, which is his own zodiac. This continues until the end, for every next indian is saved. Better make sure all the indians can count well, though, one mistake may cost a lot of lives .


By the way, great thread, although we should really be able to filter stuff. Posts commenting with the white/orange ball and threadmill/airplane problem are so annoying.
aseq
Profile Joined January 2003
Netherlands4019 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-11-29 13:54:40
November 29 2012 13:48 GMT
#620
On November 29 2012 09:56 Jonoman92 wrote:
Figured I'd resurrect this rather than make a new thread. This is an inductive type problem I had pop up recently. I admit defeat. I don't know the answer so if you post be sure to provide a valid explanation!

[image loading]

edit: For clarification, the images are read left to right, and from the choices you are supposed to say what comes next.


Problem with these is that there is no way of knowing what parameter you're supposed to look for. The 4,5,1,2,3 answer seems ok, but it's not very convincing. The mod(5) + 1 comes out of nowhere, only there happen to be as many examples and answers.

It could be something completely different, like: Does the shape have straight lines in non 45x degree angles? The current situation would be 1,1,0,0,1 so the correct answer would be E. Which is probably not the answer .
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