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This is a sensitive and complex issue, please do not make comments without first reading the facts, which are cataloged in the OP.
If you make an uninformed post, or one that isn't relevant to the discussion, you will be moderated. If in doubt, don't post. |
On July 15 2012 08:59 Arghmyliver wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2012 06:12 Lightwip wrote:Here's the quote: Zimmerman: Hey, we've had some break-ins in my neighborhood, and there's a real suspicious guy, uh, [near] Retreat View Circle. Um, the best address I can give you is 111 Retreat View Circle. This guy looks like he's up to no good, or he's on drugs or something. It's raining and he's just walking around, looking about. It's not that he was walking, it was that he was acting funny. He later describes in more detail how Trayvon kept randomly looking at houses. That could be reason enough to think that he might be planning to rob someone. Also, Zimmerman and Trayvon are about the same height (Trayvon is 2in taller). Definitely a build that would allow him to fight Zimmerman given no gun. While they are approximately the same height, Zimmerman weighs over one hundred pounds more than the kid who allegedly knocked him to the ground with a single punch.
50 pounds more. 158 vs 200.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin#People_involved_in_the_case
In any case, that could definitely happen. It takes just one strong punch.
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On July 15 2012 09:58 MVega wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2012 09:32 eXigent. wrote:On July 15 2012 09:08 ticklishmusic wrote:On July 15 2012 08:59 Arghmyliver wrote:On July 15 2012 06:12 Lightwip wrote:Here's the quote: Zimmerman: Hey, we've had some break-ins in my neighborhood, and there's a real suspicious guy, uh, [near] Retreat View Circle. Um, the best address I can give you is 111 Retreat View Circle. This guy looks like he's up to no good, or he's on drugs or something. It's raining and he's just walking around, looking about. It's not that he was walking, it was that he was acting funny. He later describes in more detail how Trayvon kept randomly looking at houses. That could be reason enough to think that he might be planning to rob someone. Also, Zimmerman and Trayvon are about the same height (Trayvon is 2in taller). Definitely a build that would allow him to fight Zimmerman given no gun. While they are approximately the same height, Zimmerman weighs over one hundred pounds more than the kid who allegedly knocked him to the ground with a single punch. Weight doesn't mean much there though. A good punch to the head can get someone bigger than you down pretty easily. No matter how big you are, your brain is still squishy. You could also have a "glass jaw" as they say in the fighting world. You could be double someones weight, but if they catch you with a solid punch to your chin, odds are you will drop pretty quickly. There are lots of variables. Height and weight differences make a difference, but there are lots of other things that influence the outcome of a fight. Assuming for a moment that Zimmerman was surprised by Trayvon's alleged violent response to being followed, that swings the fight into Trayvon's favor. Experience also plays a role as well, if Trayvon had more experience than Zimmerman that gives him an advantage as well. Response to fear also plays a factor. If Zimmerman was afraid of Trayvon and didn't respond well to that fear he could be at a disadvantage by making critical mistakes. Since we weren't there it's really hard to say how it went down. A real fist fight amongst normal people is vastly different from something like an MMA match.
All I was saying is that no matter your size, a really strong punch to someone's jaw can have the potential to floor someone.
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On July 15 2012 10:28 Lightwip wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2012 08:59 Arghmyliver wrote:On July 15 2012 06:12 Lightwip wrote:Here's the quote: Zimmerman: Hey, we've had some break-ins in my neighborhood, and there's a real suspicious guy, uh, [near] Retreat View Circle. Um, the best address I can give you is 111 Retreat View Circle. This guy looks like he's up to no good, or he's on drugs or something. It's raining and he's just walking around, looking about. It's not that he was walking, it was that he was acting funny. He later describes in more detail how Trayvon kept randomly looking at houses. That could be reason enough to think that he might be planning to rob someone. Also, Zimmerman and Trayvon are about the same height (Trayvon is 2in taller). Definitely a build that would allow him to fight Zimmerman given no gun. While they are approximately the same height, Zimmerman weighs over one hundred pounds more than the kid who allegedly knocked him to the ground with a single punch. 50 pounds more. 158 vs 200. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin#People_involved_in_the_caseIn any case, that could definitely happen. It takes just one strong punch.
Hmm that's an interestingly specific number for Trayvon and a rounded one for Zimmerman - everything I've read says 140 vs 250. Zimmerman was punched in the nose not the jaw also - granted getting punched in the nose hurts a lot too (never been punched in the nose but I did have a basketball goal fall on my face when I dunked and all of the water had leaked out of the counterweight - I lost a lot of blood through my nose). I still don't know that "walking around, looking about" in the rain really qualifies as suspicious behavior. Even if there were break-ins in the neighborhood.
I really wish no one had died that night.
Zimmerman's story is that Martin attacked him and tried to murder him in cold blood.
It sounds like to me - from inconsistencies in Zimmerman's report of their dialogue - Zimmerman confronted Martin about his presence in the neighborhood, their dialogue degraded into what was basically a wrestling match where Zimmerman drew and fired his gun, killing Martin.
He was told by the operator to remain in his vehicle.
It was not necessary to pursue Martin.
If he remains in his vehicle no one dies in Twin Lakes that night.
This is at the very least negligent manslaughter.
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This is most certainly a case involving manslaughter. No idea why they decided to charge him with Murder2 because he's clearly not guilty of Murder2.
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If Martin attacked Zimmerman it is negligent manslaughter only.
If Zimmerman following Martin instigated dialogue which deteriorated into violence I think you can make a case for murder in the second degree.
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It would be pretty hard to prove that Zimmerman was depraved at the time of the killing, a requirement for Murder2, given that he was pretty sane during the phone call that happened just a few minutes before.
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On July 15 2012 05:52 Arghmyliver wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2012 04:15 Millitron wrote:On July 14 2012 18:57 Arghmyliver wrote:
In my opinion, this is a severely flawed testimony. I do not know - nor does anyone else alive besides Zimmerman - what happened that night during the altercation between Zimmerman and Martin, but I am of the opinion that it was not what is recorded in this testimony. I do not understand how George Zimmerman went from completely helpless to restraining Trayvon Martin's nearly lifeless body in what was apparently a matter of seconds. He was able to free himself enough to draw his gun and fire in so rapid an action while Martin was attempting the exact same action from what was described as a far superior position that surely he should have been able restrain Martin without the use of deadly force. While Martin was above Zimmerman, he's still reaching for the gun at a bad angle. It's practically impossible to draw someone else's gun (assuming it was holstered on his hip) with one hand. Being above Zimmerman is only a superior position when it comes to holding him down, not when it comes to taking Zimmerman's gun. Plus, Zimmerman didn't have to draw the gun and aim carefully and all that. He just had to draw the gun at all and fire, since he was at point-blank range. Without knowing exactly how he was being held down, its impossible to tell if he could have had enough range of motion to draw his gun. There's also the fact that by this point, Zimmerman's adrenaline would have been pumping, while Martin's would not, at least not as much. Martin likely did not suspect this was a life-or-death situation, at least not yet, so he would not be quite as full of adrenaline as Zimmerman. Whether this would be enough to allow Zimmerman to fire his gun, no one except him knows. Hmm - being followed by a guy, then you get into a fight with him (regardless of how it starts) and then you realize he has a gun and you are not as afraid for your life as the guy with the gun? I just don't think there is any justification for you to pursue a guy you don't know because he is "walking casually in the rain." On Mythbusters, they did the experiment regarding whether it is better to run or walk in the rain from the standpoint of which gets you the most wet. It is better to walk in the rain as this provides less surface area for droplets to impact as opposed to running through the rain which exposes your entire front to droplet impact. This is actually a fairly commonly known fact. Deciding that "the suspect" must be on drugs because he is walking in the rain is one of the least factually-based conclusions I have ever heard. Almost as bad as "I shot him because I didn't now whether or not he had a gun" and "I'm sorry for the loss of you son, I did not know how old he was." On the other hand - Zimmerman himself admits to taking medication for ADHD. So we both know that he is on drugs AND has a gun (I guess not anymore now that he is in prison). So in my opinion - the person most justified in using lethal force to defend themselves is the guy who gets chased down at night by a man twice his size on drugs wielding a gun.
I don't have a solid conclusion on this matter, but wow, you make Zimmerman sound so bad. He probably got prescribed adderall and that's not really going to affect one's judgement. The adrenaline would be more of an effect than anything. He was licensed, which doesn't say much, but I am also and the #1 thing they preach next to safety is that you only pull your gun out if you think your life is in danger.
I do think that if Martin was on top of Zimmerman beating him down, that it would've been pretty hard to draw, especially if he carried in the 4 o clock position like many I know do. Your arms would be covering your face or trying to get the guy off of you. It all really comes down to the state and jury, but IMO, getting beat down by a guy much smaller than you does not qualify as life threatening in many states. If there were multiple people, then maybe that would justify the use of deadly force.
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On July 15 2012 11:50 prochobo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2012 05:52 Arghmyliver wrote:On July 15 2012 04:15 Millitron wrote:On July 14 2012 18:57 Arghmyliver wrote:
In my opinion, this is a severely flawed testimony. I do not know - nor does anyone else alive besides Zimmerman - what happened that night during the altercation between Zimmerman and Martin, but I am of the opinion that it was not what is recorded in this testimony. I do not understand how George Zimmerman went from completely helpless to restraining Trayvon Martin's nearly lifeless body in what was apparently a matter of seconds. He was able to free himself enough to draw his gun and fire in so rapid an action while Martin was attempting the exact same action from what was described as a far superior position that surely he should have been able restrain Martin without the use of deadly force. While Martin was above Zimmerman, he's still reaching for the gun at a bad angle. It's practically impossible to draw someone else's gun (assuming it was holstered on his hip) with one hand. Being above Zimmerman is only a superior position when it comes to holding him down, not when it comes to taking Zimmerman's gun. Plus, Zimmerman didn't have to draw the gun and aim carefully and all that. He just had to draw the gun at all and fire, since he was at point-blank range. Without knowing exactly how he was being held down, its impossible to tell if he could have had enough range of motion to draw his gun. There's also the fact that by this point, Zimmerman's adrenaline would have been pumping, while Martin's would not, at least not as much. Martin likely did not suspect this was a life-or-death situation, at least not yet, so he would not be quite as full of adrenaline as Zimmerman. Whether this would be enough to allow Zimmerman to fire his gun, no one except him knows. Hmm - being followed by a guy, then you get into a fight with him (regardless of how it starts) and then you realize he has a gun and you are not as afraid for your life as the guy with the gun? I just don't think there is any justification for you to pursue a guy you don't know because he is "walking casually in the rain." On Mythbusters, they did the experiment regarding whether it is better to run or walk in the rain from the standpoint of which gets you the most wet. It is better to walk in the rain as this provides less surface area for droplets to impact as opposed to running through the rain which exposes your entire front to droplet impact. This is actually a fairly commonly known fact. Deciding that "the suspect" must be on drugs because he is walking in the rain is one of the least factually-based conclusions I have ever heard. Almost as bad as "I shot him because I didn't now whether or not he had a gun" and "I'm sorry for the loss of you son, I did not know how old he was." On the other hand - Zimmerman himself admits to taking medication for ADHD. So we both know that he is on drugs AND has a gun (I guess not anymore now that he is in prison). So in my opinion - the person most justified in using lethal force to defend themselves is the guy who gets chased down at night by a man twice his size on drugs wielding a gun. I don't have a solid conclusion on this matter, but wow, you make Zimmerman sound so bad. He probably got prescribed adderall and that's not really going to affect one's judgement. The adrenaline would be more of an effect than anything. He was licensed, which doesn't say much, but I am also and the #1 thing they preach next to safety is that you only pull your gun out if you think your life is in danger. I do think that if Martin was on top of Zimmerman beating him down, that it would've been pretty hard to draw, especially if he carried in the 4 o clock position like many I know do. Your arms would be covering your face or trying to get the guy off of you. It all really comes down to the state and jury, but IMO, getting beat down by a guy much smaller than you does not qualify as life threatening in many states. If there were multiple people, then maybe that would justify the use of deadly force.
I wasn't trying to make him look bad - but by his own logic he should have had neighborhood watch calling the police on him. Even if Martin WAS on drugs - that's not really illegal. In order to be charged with public intoxication you pretty much have to be making a scene or go up to a cop and say "I'm on LSD" and try to take your pants off (true story - guy was on Morning Glory seeds [LSA - but he took a lot of them so...]). I don't think walking in the rain really qualifies. Zimmerman should have stayed in his car. The 911 call might be warranted given the recent crime rate in the neighborhood - but definitely not the pursuit, and Martin wasn't really doing anything incredibly suspicious.
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On July 15 2012 08:59 Arghmyliver wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2012 06:12 Lightwip wrote:Here's the quote: Zimmerman: Hey, we've had some break-ins in my neighborhood, and there's a real suspicious guy, uh, [near] Retreat View Circle. Um, the best address I can give you is 111 Retreat View Circle. This guy looks like he's up to no good, or he's on drugs or something. It's raining and he's just walking around, looking about. It's not that he was walking, it was that he was acting funny. He later describes in more detail how Trayvon kept randomly looking at houses. That could be reason enough to think that he might be planning to rob someone. Also, Zimmerman and Trayvon are about the same height (Trayvon is 2in taller). Definitely a build that would allow him to fight Zimmerman given no gun. While they are approximately the same height, Zimmerman weighs over one hundred pounds more than the kid who allegedly knocked him to the ground with a single punch.
Zimmerman weighed 185 pounds at the time of the incident. Martin weighed 158. That is only a 27 pound difference. Martin was also 3 inches taller than Zimmerman.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin
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sounds pretty weird to me bring out that tale of the tape shit.
Based from what I know, the size doesnt matter much when you compare a teen to an adult...
doesnt seem to me many 16-17-18 yrs old male can beat the shit out of adult...
Don't know a single guy that did not get taller than his father in his teens. Don't know a single one that was able to pwn his dad until he was well in his twenties...
A full grown male is pretty strong compared to a teen...
for TM to have jumped that guy... he must have been pretty much cornered and felt like he had no other way out ( or it did not happen and he was shot by an asshole : wrong place/wrong time )
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On July 15 2012 12:37 Millitron wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2012 08:59 Arghmyliver wrote:On July 15 2012 06:12 Lightwip wrote:Here's the quote: Zimmerman: Hey, we've had some break-ins in my neighborhood, and there's a real suspicious guy, uh, [near] Retreat View Circle. Um, the best address I can give you is 111 Retreat View Circle. This guy looks like he's up to no good, or he's on drugs or something. It's raining and he's just walking around, looking about. It's not that he was walking, it was that he was acting funny. He later describes in more detail how Trayvon kept randomly looking at houses. That could be reason enough to think that he might be planning to rob someone. Also, Zimmerman and Trayvon are about the same height (Trayvon is 2in taller). Definitely a build that would allow him to fight Zimmerman given no gun. While they are approximately the same height, Zimmerman weighs over one hundred pounds more than the kid who allegedly knocked him to the ground with a single punch. Zimmerman weighed 185 pounds at the time of the incident. Martin weighed 158. That is only a 27 pound difference. Martin was also 3 inches taller than Zimmerman. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin
3 inches taller = approx. the same height.
I have seen a lot of different figures for their weights from many different sources. Wikipedia isn't the only website on the internet (although it is a rather good one). Certainly he could fight Zimmerman, but why on earth would he want to - especially if his first reaction was to flee?
I think there are minor inconsistencies in Zimmerman's account which lead me to believe that the altercation between the two occurred differently than how he says it did. He has shown that he has no qualms about lying to better his position legally (bond incident). I don't think he intended to kill Martin, but I think its possible he realized that what he had done could be construed as murder in the second degree (since he was studying to become a judge) and altered his story to make it seem more like self-defense (realizing the only other witness was dead). This is just a theory of course.
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On July 15 2012 13:01 Arghmyliver wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2012 12:37 Millitron wrote:On July 15 2012 08:59 Arghmyliver wrote:On July 15 2012 06:12 Lightwip wrote:Here's the quote: Zimmerman: Hey, we've had some break-ins in my neighborhood, and there's a real suspicious guy, uh, [near] Retreat View Circle. Um, the best address I can give you is 111 Retreat View Circle. This guy looks like he's up to no good, or he's on drugs or something. It's raining and he's just walking around, looking about. It's not that he was walking, it was that he was acting funny. He later describes in more detail how Trayvon kept randomly looking at houses. That could be reason enough to think that he might be planning to rob someone. Also, Zimmerman and Trayvon are about the same height (Trayvon is 2in taller). Definitely a build that would allow him to fight Zimmerman given no gun. While they are approximately the same height, Zimmerman weighs over one hundred pounds more than the kid who allegedly knocked him to the ground with a single punch. Zimmerman weighed 185 pounds at the time of the incident. Martin weighed 158. That is only a 27 pound difference. Martin was also 3 inches taller than Zimmerman. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin 3 inches taller = approx. the same height. I have seen a lot of different figures for their weights from many different sources. Wikipedia isn't the only website on the internet (although it is a rather good one). Certainly he could fight Zimmerman, but why on earth would he want to - especially if his first reaction was to flee? I think there are minor inconsistencies in Zimmerman's account which lead me to believe that the altercation between the two occurred differently than how he says it did. He has shown that he has no qualms about lying to better his position legally (bond incident). I don't think he intended to kill Martin, but I think its possible he realized that what he had done could be construed as murder in the second degree (since he was studying to become a judge) and altered his story to make it seem more like self-defense (realizing the only other witness was dead). This is just a theory of course.
3 inches is a big difference in height actually. I'm 5'10 and 130. My best friend is 5'7 and 155, but we're both pretty fit. I'm kind of slender, and he's on the slightly built side.
now, my dad is kind of a special case. he may be an inch shorter and 10 pounds lighter, but he was a paratrooper in the army. my brown belt in karate wouldn't count for anything if i got in a fight with him. still with the average adult, i'd probably get the jump on them pretty quick.
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On July 15 2012 12:56 Kevin_Sorbo wrote:
sounds pretty weird to me bring out that tale of the tape shit.
Based from what I know, the size doesnt matter much when you compare a teen to an adult...
doesnt seem to me many 16-17-18 yrs old male can beat the shit out of adult...
Don't know a single guy that did not get taller than his father in his teens. Don't know a single one that was able to pwn his dad until he was well in his twenties...
A full grown male is pretty strong compared to a teen...
for TM to have jumped that guy... he must have been pretty much cornered and felt like he had no other way out ( or it did not happen and he was shot by an asshole : wrong place/wrong time )
Really? You've never seen a high school kid that can hold his on versus a guy who is nearly 30?
Especially if the high school kid has any type of weight training for sports (HS football players can straight wreck full grown men who aren't in shape) and the adult has a desk job and a beer gut.
Hard to say without seeing these two actually involved in a fight, but based off of the facts (weight and height) Id say either one could pose a threat to the other if they got the first swing in.
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On July 16 2012 10:06 ticklishmusic wrote:
3 inches is a big difference in height actually. I'm 5'10 and 130. My best friend is 5'7 and 155, but we're both pretty fit. I'm kind of slender, and he's on the slightly built side.
If you're 5'10" 130 and think you could get the jump on the average adult, I'd advise you not to try.
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Saw this on Yahoo and thought it was ridiculous. Zimmerman was 8-18 at the time of the alleged molestation, meaning this happened 20-10 years ago, if it happened. Can't see this being relevant to the case AT ALL, but I'm sure it will give the anti-zimmerman movement some more steam.
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On July 16 2012 10:06 ticklishmusic wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2012 13:01 Arghmyliver wrote:On July 15 2012 12:37 Millitron wrote:On July 15 2012 08:59 Arghmyliver wrote:On July 15 2012 06:12 Lightwip wrote:Here's the quote: Zimmerman: Hey, we've had some break-ins in my neighborhood, and there's a real suspicious guy, uh, [near] Retreat View Circle. Um, the best address I can give you is 111 Retreat View Circle. This guy looks like he's up to no good, or he's on drugs or something. It's raining and he's just walking around, looking about. It's not that he was walking, it was that he was acting funny. He later describes in more detail how Trayvon kept randomly looking at houses. That could be reason enough to think that he might be planning to rob someone. Also, Zimmerman and Trayvon are about the same height (Trayvon is 2in taller). Definitely a build that would allow him to fight Zimmerman given no gun. While they are approximately the same height, Zimmerman weighs over one hundred pounds more than the kid who allegedly knocked him to the ground with a single punch. Zimmerman weighed 185 pounds at the time of the incident. Martin weighed 158. That is only a 27 pound difference. Martin was also 3 inches taller than Zimmerman. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin 3 inches taller = approx. the same height. I have seen a lot of different figures for their weights from many different sources. Wikipedia isn't the only website on the internet (although it is a rather good one). Certainly he could fight Zimmerman, but why on earth would he want to - especially if his first reaction was to flee? I think there are minor inconsistencies in Zimmerman's account which lead me to believe that the altercation between the two occurred differently than how he says it did. He has shown that he has no qualms about lying to better his position legally (bond incident). I don't think he intended to kill Martin, but I think its possible he realized that what he had done could be construed as murder in the second degree (since he was studying to become a judge) and altered his story to make it seem more like self-defense (realizing the only other witness was dead). This is just a theory of course. 3 inches is a big difference in height actually. I'm 5'10 and 130. My best friend is 5'7 and 155, but we're both pretty fit. I'm kind of slender, and he's on the slightly built side. now, my dad is kind of a special case. he may be an inch shorter and 10 pounds lighter, but he was a paratrooper in the army. my brown belt in karate wouldn't count for anything if i got in a fight with him. still with the average adult, i'd probably get the jump on them pretty quick.
No offence, since I had to use a calculator to change that to kg and centimeters and might be mistaken, but you aren't anywhere near the weight class of an average adult. From personal experience I can tell you that the 20kg more of an adult of your size would weight make a very large difference.
Obviously there are quite a few other factors in any hand to hand altercation, willingness to do violence, training, etc. I am a Teacher without any special hand to hand training except a 2 week course in my army time, but simply via size and muscles I am (and was) able to subdue any unarmed teenager who makes trouble without problems. As long as they do not pull a gun or a knife experience and higher mass are almost always enough. (For the record i am 192cm tall and weigh about 90kg).
Yes there are always exceptions who train heavily with weights (football is not a common sport here so most athletes train for speed as required in soccer or tennis) but they are few and far between and the example under discussion here is clearly not one of them if the numbers given in this thread can be believed.
To get back to the point, 3 inches in height make a difference, but the 30 pounds more weight are far more important in a fight. Frankly my biggest problem is that Zimmerman does not make a very reliable witness. He behaved contrary to the recommendation (or orders) of the 911 call, and started (or at the very least) provoked a confrontation which ended with a young teenager dead.
One last note, going back the entire quote chain, if walking about and looking at houses is enough to be called suspicious I'd probably get arrested every second day because I like walking around the neighbourhood in the evening to clear my head before going to sleep. Frankly what appals me the most is that he still seems convinced he has done nothing wrong...
(edit) tacking this on here since I don't want to doublepost:
The molestation buisness seems very shady to say the least. Maybe the Yahoo summary is just lacking in detail, but that does not seem like a very believable story. Frankly it feels more like a cry for attention completly unrelated to the case in general.
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You are talking about a straight up fight. Any semi-fit teen can sucker-punch an adult. I'm not saying that's what happened but this whole talk about height and weight is not really relevant.
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On July 17 2012 05:23 Tula wrote:
Frankly my biggest problem is that Zimmerman does not make a very reliable witness.
How did you come to such a conclusion? Not only does his account of the events appear to be corroborated by the evidence, his estimation of Trayvon as a suspicious character proved to be very accurate. He said Trayvon looked like he was on drugs, the autopsy showed he had been smoking marijuana. Trayvon also abused cough syrup and was buying ingredients for a cough syrup cocktail (skittles and Arizona watermelon drink).
Trayvon had been caught in school with a burglary tool and stolen women's jewelry, so the conclusion that he may have been looking for a house to rob when he was walking around looking into houses was very reasonable and it was smart to phone police.
On July 17 2012 05:23 Tula wrote:
He behaved contrary to the recommendation (or orders) of the 911 call,
He obeyed the 911 operator, responded "okay" and immediately stopped following. You are either misinformed or a liar.
On July 17 2012 05:23 Tula wrote:
and started (or at the very least) provoked a confrontation which ended with a young teenager dead.
Trayvon confronted Zimmerman from behind and assaulted him when he was returning to his truck. This is a clearly unprovoked attack, initiated by Trayvon himself.
On July 17 2012 05:23 Tula wrote:
One last note, going back the entire quote chain, if walking about and looking at houses is enough to be called suspicious I'd probably get arrested every second day because I like walking around the neighbourhood in the evening to clear my head before going to sleep.
It is unlikely you actually look at people's houses, wander slowly, and attempt to peer into windows in a neighborhood that has been experiencing high amounts of crime. But if you do, you certainly should expect the police to be phoned on you eventually and I hope you don't assault the person who reports your behaviour to police.
On July 17 2012 05:23 Tula wrote:
Frankly what appals me the most is that he still seems convinced he has done nothing wrong...
There's nothing wrong with being a good citizen who looks out for your neighbors. There's nothing wrong with defending yourself when you are being attacked.
He did nothing wrong. What he did was right and good.
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On July 17 2012 05:56 Portlandian wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 05:23 Tula wrote:
Frankly my biggest problem is that Zimmerman does not make a very reliable witness. How did you come to such a conclusion? Not only does his account of the events appear to be corroborated by the evidence, his estimation of Trayvon as a suspicious character proved to be very accurate. He said Trayvon looked like he was on drugs, the autopsy showed he had been smoking marijuana. Trayvon also abused cough syrup and was buying ingredients for a cough syrup cocktail (skittles and Arizona watermelon drink). Trayvon had been caught in school with a burglary tool and stolen women's jewelry, so the conclusion that he may have been looking for a house to rob when he was walking around looking into houses was very reasonable and it was smart to phone police.
You are including unproven allegations by the defense as fact. Linking marijuana to drugs in this context is idiotic at best. Considering that you appear to be from Belgium you should be well aware that marijuana does not make someone more aggressive, on the contrary it usually makes you more relaxed. skittles and Arizona watermelon drink might be something you can use for a cough syrup cocktail (whatever that is, I've never heard of it in Austria btw.) but it is also a soft drink and a snack, so it literally proves nothing. Fact is he might have considered Trayvon suspicious, but frankly so would he himself have appeared. He trailed someone through the dark without attempting to identify himself remember?
On July 17 2012 05:56 Portlandian wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 05:23 Tula wrote:
He behaved contrary to the recommendation (or orders) of the 911 call, He obeyed the 911 operator, responded "okay" and immediately stopped following. You are either misinformed or a liar.
Not according to the sources given in the OP, which is the only thing I can base my information on. If you have other information by all means link it.
On July 17 2012 05:56 Portlandian wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 05:23 Tula wrote:
and started (or at the very least) provoked a confrontation which ended with a young teenager dead. Trayvon confronted Zimmerman from behind and assaulted him when he was returning to his truck. This is a clearly unprovoked attack, initiated by Trayvon himself.
According to Zimmermans statement you mean. There is no reliable witness to corrobate that and the other party is dead. Zimmerman had no wounds requiring medical attention according to the Sanford police officer (again see OP).
On July 17 2012 05:56 Portlandian wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 05:23 Tula wrote:
One last note, going back the entire quote chain, if walking about and looking at houses is enough to be called suspicious I'd probably get arrested every second day because I like walking around the neighbourhood in the evening to clear my head before going to sleep. It is unlikely you actually look at people's houses, wander slowly, and attempt to peer into windows in a neighborhood that has been experiencing high amounts of crime. But if you do, you certainly should expect the police to be phoned on you eventually and I hope you don't assault the person who reports your behaviour to police.
Again you assume quite a lot here. We have no proof that Trayvon assaulted anyone. We also have no proof that he truly did what you are stating as a fact. He might have simply been walking back to his fathers house with his munchies when someone started following him without identifying himself.
We know as a fact from the police call that Trayvon started fleeing and Zimmerman pursued him. Frankly that sounds like fairly normal fear behaviour to me (and also to the investigating police officers if you'd recall).
On July 17 2012 05:56 Portlandian wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 05:23 Tula wrote:
Frankly what appals me the most is that he still seems convinced he has done nothing wrong... There's nothing wrong with being a good citizen who looks out for your neighbors. There's nothing wrong with defending yourself when you are being attacked. He did nothing wrong. What he did was right and good.
So, it's right and good that a teenager who was minding his own buisness and on his way home is now dead because a good citizen instigated an unnecessary confrontation and defended himself with a gun against an unarmed person who might or might not have struck the first blow? Frankly if so our definitions of what is right and good differ quite a bit. Personally I consider it criminal.
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