EPTAs another update, Zimmerman wants a new judge for the case.
Shooting of Trayvon Martin - Page 67
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This is a sensitive and complex issue, please do not make comments without first reading the facts, which are cataloged in the OP. If you make an uninformed post, or one that isn't relevant to the discussion, you will be moderated. If in doubt, don't post. | ||
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Lightwip
United States5497 Posts
As another update, Zimmerman wants a new judge for the case. | ||
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Arghmyliver
United States1077 Posts
A couple things I notice in the description of the attack - Zimmerman describes Trayvon (17-year-old described by teacher as "major[ing] in cheerfulness") as a cold blooded killer. He says Trayvon attacked with no provocation (except for being followed by a random stranger) with intent to kill (premeditated murder had he succeeded) quoting him as saying "Your gonna die tonight, Mother Fucker (sic)." He says that Trayvon ". . . covered my mouth and nose and stopped my breathing. At this point I felt the suspect reach for my now exposed firearm and 'say" "Your gonna die tonight, Mother Fucker (sic)."" It is possible that with large hands Trayvon might be able to smother Zimmerman with one hand while simultaneously reaching for Zimmerman's gun with the other while simultaneously keeping him pinned to the ground with his 140 pound frame. In my opinion, however, this is highly unlikely (Disclaimer: This is an opinion). After he has gained permanent control of the gun (has drawn it and shot Trayvon) he decides that it is now necessary to restrain Trayvon by ". . . holding his hands away from his body." Trayvon now has a mortal gunshot wound to the torso. Some of the few things either could have done at this point to try to save Trayvon's life would be to attempt to staunch the flow of blood by applying pressure to the wound and not move Trayvon in any way to avoid further internal damage. Instead, according to Zimmerman's report, he climbs on top of him and prevents him from doing one of the only things that could have possibly saved his life. According to Zimmerman - the dialogue of the attack proceeded as follows; TM - "You got a problem?" GZ - "No." TM - "You do now." (GZ reaches for phone. TM punches GZ in the face, knocking him to the ground. TM pins GZ to the ground) GZ - "Help!" (Repeats) TM - "Shut the fuck up" (TM slams GZ's head into the ground repeatedly) GZ - "Help!" (Continues to repeat) (GZ attempts to free himself, exposing his firearm. TM smothers GZ and reaches for the firearm) TM - "You're gonna die tonight, motherfucker." (GZ draws his firearm and shoots TM in the torso. TM releases his hold on GZ and sits back) TM - "You got me." (GZ climbs on top of TM, restraining his arms. Onlooker(OL) arrives) OL - "Are you alright?" GZ - "No" OL - "I am calling 911." GZ - "I don't need you to call 911, I need you to help me restrain this guy." (Police arrive and disarm/restrain GZ) (Brief dialogue with police omitted) It is interesting to me that Trayvon - returning home from the Quickie Mart with a bag of Skittles and some AZ Iced Tea - would decide to take a brief detour for some assault/murder. His girlfriend (with whom Trayvon was speaking at the time of the incident) reports two lines of dialogue (TM - "What are you following me for?" GZ -"What are you doing here?") which are completely absent from Zimmerman's testimony. In the phone conversation with the non-emergency line dispatcher - George Zimmerman says that Trayvon starts running after he notices Zimmerman following him. So Trayvon reconsiders his initial reaction - to flee - and decides to return to assault Zimmerman with intent to kill. During the assault - Zimmerman is completely helpless and incapable of any action besides calling for help until he notices Trayvon reaching for his gun, at which point he immediately draws it himself and shoots Trayvon point blank in the torso. In my opinion, this is a severely flawed testimony. I do not know - nor does anyone else alive besides Zimmerman - what happened that night during the altercation between Zimmerman and Martin, but I am of the opinion that it was not what is recorded in this testimony. I do not understand how George Zimmerman went from completely helpless to restraining Trayvon Martin's nearly lifeless body in what was apparently a matter of seconds. He was able to free himself enough to draw his gun and fire in so rapid an action while Martin was attempting the exact same action from what was described as a far superior position that surely he should have been able restrain Martin without the use of deadly force. | ||
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Domus
510 Posts
1) Not being from the US I am not that familiar with gated communities. How big is this gated community, how big is the chance that someone knows a lot of people in this gated community when he is a neighbourhood watch? What I am curious about is, how strange is it for George, as a neighbourhood watch/appointed security to follow someone. 2) The actions of George, to me sound logical from his perspective up to a certain point. Mainly in that he observes what he thinks is suspicious behaviour. Calls the police for assistance and then continues to follow what he perceives as suspicious behaviour. But that is, if he knows many people in the neighbourhood and Martin is not familiar to him. 3) There is a point of confrontation. I think it will be very hard to determine how the confrontation went down. The eye witness reports are simply not clear enough/trustworthy, witnesses are not very trustworthy anyway, even more so if their stories change because of pressure or media. Georges statement also sounds flawed/one-dimensional. 4) From the information available I think that the evidence for this being a case of self-defense that warants deadly force is weak. There were so many options here from Georges point of view. It is clear at least that he shot Martin. I think his testimony of over the top violence by Martin is unlikely. But there must have been a struggle and George must have felt threatened. The wounds he has are not those of over the top violence. They are wounds of a small struggle. He has a small lash on his nose(that nose is not broken), and two small wounds at the back of his head. So yes, I think it is likely that he felt threatened since he was in a fight with a much larger guy (no matter how the fight started, will be hard to determine how is started, but there was a struggle). I think that using the gun was probably a severe lack of judgement. 5) I think it is very clear that the police made a major error in judgement. Someone is shot dead in a gated community and there is no thorough investigation. I think that the main focus here should be on how the police functions. Because that is also the place where these circumstances can be prevented. If the police functions correctly you should have less vigilantes and also, solve more crimes. I think vigilantism should be prevented at all cost, because citizens are just not trained to deal with threats/violence and making the right judgement calls like police officers should be. TLDR: I think this is a form of Manslaughter. I don't think that this was an intentional murder from George, or that there was malice involved. It sounds like he felt severly threatened, made the wrong judgement call and shot in the struggle. I also think that etnicity from Georges perspective has little to do with it, based on the information. I am not sure I can say the same about how the police force acted. I do think he should be punished for his lack of judgement and use of lethal force though, and Manslaughter is still a big punishment. Just a quick wiki reference: + Show Spoiler + Manslaughter: Maximum of 15 years in prison; maximum of 30 years in prison if a firearm is used plus a mandatory minimum of 25 years Aggravated manslaughter of a child: Maximum of 30 years in prison; maximum could be enhanced to life in prison if a firearm is used plus a mandatory minimum of 25 years Third degree murder: Maximum of 15 years in prison; maximum of 30 years in prison if a firearm is used plus a mandatory minimum of 25 years Second degree murder: Maximum of life in prison; Minimum of 25 years if a firearm is used, otherwise a minimum of 20.5 years under sentencing guidelines for a person with a clean record. First degree murder: Death penalty or life in prison. Parole in FL has been abolished for all crimes since 1983 and for all capital crimes since 1995. So in this case it would be 25-30 years of prison because he used a firearm. Is it possible to add the jury instructions for manslaughter to the OP? | ||
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Lightwip
United States5497 Posts
Also, it's important to note that the AZ Iced Tea was actually an AZ watermelon drink. Skittles and AZ Watermelon Drink are two important ingredients in the drug called lean, one which Trayvon was known to have been using. Since Zimmerman claimed in the police call that Trayvon looked like he was on drugs, this is important. | ||
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woody60707
United States1863 Posts
On July 15 2012 01:56 Lightwip wrote: The instructions on manslaughter were considered somewhere in the thread. But it's basically second degree without the "depraved killer" requirement. Irrelevant now though since he was charged with second degree murder. Also, it's important to note that the AZ Iced Tea was actually an AZ watermelon drink. Skittles and AZ Watermelon Drink are two important ingredients in the drug called lean, one which Trayvon was known to have been using. Since Zimmerman claimed in the police call that Trayvon looked like he was on drugs, this is important. Dude. That lean crap is just that, crap, made up by some racist ass people on the net that need to paint Martin as some druggy thug. There was just a little THC found in his system at the time of he's death. So he got high a few days ago. | ||
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Lightwip
United States5497 Posts
On July 15 2012 03:18 woody60707 wrote: Dude. That lean crap is just that, crap, made up by some racist ass people on the net that need to paint Martin as some druggy thug. There was just a little THC found in his system at the time of he's death. So he got high a few days ago. Can't argue with a solid argument like that. | ||
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Omnipresent
United States871 Posts
On July 15 2012 03:36 Lightwip wrote: Can't argue with a solid argument like that. How about this. "Lean" is basically hydrocodone cough syrup mixed in some sugary drink. It reduces motor function and causes euphoria and lethargy. It's not the kind of thing that makes you violent, and would leave you pretty incapapble of fighting if even if it did. In other words, even it the accusation is true (and there's no reason to think it is), it wouldn't make Zimmerman any more or less guilty. Nevermind the fact that hydrocodone is an opiate, and will show up on any tox screen. The accusation looks racist for a couple reasons. For starters, there is absolutely no evidence for it and it would have no bearing on the facts of the case if true. It's pure character assassination. Additionally, "lean" is a primarily found in hip hop culture. Those making this claim are accusing a black kid of unsavory activity most commonly associated with black musicians with absolutely no evidence. They're black. He's black. That's good enough. This is that the word "racist" means. That doesn't mean you're a racist. It just means you have weak information and biased sources. | ||
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Millitron
United States2611 Posts
On July 14 2012 18:57 Arghmyliver wrote: In my opinion, this is a severely flawed testimony. I do not know - nor does anyone else alive besides Zimmerman - what happened that night during the altercation between Zimmerman and Martin, but I am of the opinion that it was not what is recorded in this testimony. I do not understand how George Zimmerman went from completely helpless to restraining Trayvon Martin's nearly lifeless body in what was apparently a matter of seconds. He was able to free himself enough to draw his gun and fire in so rapid an action while Martin was attempting the exact same action from what was described as a far superior position that surely he should have been able restrain Martin without the use of deadly force. While Martin was above Zimmerman, he's still reaching for the gun at a bad angle. It's practically impossible to draw someone else's gun (assuming it was holstered on his hip) with one hand. Being above Zimmerman is only a superior position when it comes to holding him down, not when it comes to taking Zimmerman's gun. Plus, Zimmerman didn't have to draw the gun and aim carefully and all that. He just had to draw the gun at all and fire, since he was at point-blank range. Without knowing exactly how he was being held down, its impossible to tell if he could have had enough range of motion to draw his gun. There's also the fact that by this point, Zimmerman's adrenaline would have been pumping, while Martin's would not, at least not as much. Martin likely did not suspect this was a life-or-death situation, at least not yet, so he would not be quite as full of adrenaline as Zimmerman. Whether this would be enough to allow Zimmerman to fire his gun, no one except him knows. | ||
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K_Dilkington
Sweden449 Posts
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MoonfireSpam
United Kingdom1153 Posts
On July 15 2012 03:36 Lightwip wrote: Can't argue with a solid argument like that. As pointed out "lean" is cough syrup + anything sweet. Using that as an argument for drug use is like arguing that anyone with rizla and tobacco is likely to be doing weed or any 20 something male with a £20 note does cocaine. They aren't important ingredients at all, the only thing with active ingredients is cough syrup. So yeah. The lean crap is total crap. | ||
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Arghmyliver
United States1077 Posts
On July 15 2012 05:07 MoonfireSpam wrote: As pointed out "lean" is cough syrup + anything sweet. Using that as an argument for drug use is like arguing that anyone with rizla and tobacco is likely to be doing weed or any 20 something male with a £20 note does cocaine. They aren't important ingredients at all, the only thing with active ingredients is cough syrup. So yeah. The lean crap is total crap. Not to mention it was posted on "conservativetreehouse.com." | ||
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Arghmyliver
United States1077 Posts
On July 15 2012 04:15 Millitron wrote: While Martin was above Zimmerman, he's still reaching for the gun at a bad angle. It's practically impossible to draw someone else's gun (assuming it was holstered on his hip) with one hand. Being above Zimmerman is only a superior position when it comes to holding him down, not when it comes to taking Zimmerman's gun. Plus, Zimmerman didn't have to draw the gun and aim carefully and all that. He just had to draw the gun at all and fire, since he was at point-blank range. Without knowing exactly how he was being held down, its impossible to tell if he could have had enough range of motion to draw his gun. There's also the fact that by this point, Zimmerman's adrenaline would have been pumping, while Martin's would not, at least not as much. Martin likely did not suspect this was a life-or-death situation, at least not yet, so he would not be quite as full of adrenaline as Zimmerman. Whether this would be enough to allow Zimmerman to fire his gun, no one except him knows. Hmm - being followed by a guy, then you get into a fight with him (regardless of how it starts) and then you realize he has a gun and you are not as afraid for your life as the guy with the gun? I just don't think there is any justification for you to pursue a guy you don't know because he is "walking casually in the rain." On Mythbusters, they did the experiment regarding whether it is better to run or walk in the rain from the standpoint of which gets you the most wet. It is better to walk in the rain as this provides less surface area for droplets to impact as opposed to running through the rain which exposes your entire front to droplet impact. This is actually a fairly commonly known fact. Deciding that "the suspect" must be on drugs because he is walking in the rain is one of the least factually-based conclusions I have ever heard. Almost as bad as "I shot him because I didn't now whether or not he had a gun" and "I'm sorry for the loss of you son, I did not know how old he was." On the other hand - Zimmerman himself admits to taking medication for ADHD. So we both know that he is on drugs AND has a gun (I guess not anymore now that he is in prison). So in my opinion - the person most justified in using lethal force to defend themselves is the guy who gets chased down at night by a man twice his size on drugs wielding a gun. | ||
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Lightwip
United States5497 Posts
Zimmerman: Hey, we've had some break-ins in my neighborhood, and there's a real suspicious guy, uh, [near] Retreat View Circle. Um, the best address I can give you is 111 Retreat View Circle. This guy looks like he's up to no good, or he's on drugs or something. It's raining and he's just walking around, looking about. It's not that he was walking, it was that he was acting funny. He later describes in more detail how Trayvon kept randomly looking at houses. That could be reason enough to think that he might be planning to rob someone. Also, Zimmerman and Trayvon are about the same height (Trayvon is 2in taller). Definitely a build that would allow him to fight Zimmerman given no gun. | ||
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Forgottenfrog
United States1268 Posts
On July 15 2012 06:12 Lightwip wrote: Here's the quote: It's not that he was walking, it was that he was acting funny. He later describes in more detail how Trayvon kept randomly looking at houses. That could be reason enough to think that he might be planning to rob someone. Also, Zimmerman and Trayvon are about the same height (Trayvon is 2in taller). Definitely a build that would allow him to fight Zimmerman given no gun. He's looking at houses so he might be planning to rob someone? People need to stop saying this. What is there to look at when you are walking? Are you suppose to look at the ground? look straight forward? Everytime I walk around the neighborhood, I would look at the houses, lawns, cars, or anything within my surrounding but that does not mean im planning to rob anything. Seriously people, just cause you look at houses, does not mean you're planning to rob them. If he was snooping around by the windows of houses and looking inside, then that might be a different story but seriously stop with the "trayvon looking suspicious." It's much more suspicious that Zimmerman is following someone. | ||
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Lightwip
United States5497 Posts
On July 15 2012 06:35 Forgottenfrog wrote: He's looking at houses so he might be planning to rob someone? People need to stop saying this. What is there to look at when you are walking? Are you suppose to look at the ground? look straight forward? Everytime I walk around the neighborhood, I would look at the houses, lawns, cars, or anything within my surrounding but that does not mean im planning to rob anything. Seriously people, just cause you look at houses, does not mean you're planning to rob them. If he was snooping around by the windows of houses and looking inside, then that might be a different story but seriously stop with the "trayvon looking suspicious." It's much more suspicious that Zimmerman is following someone. Strawman. All I said is that Zimmerman might have reason to think that he was planning to rob, all things considered, not that that makes Trayvon a robber. It's also fully understandable that Zimmerman wanted to follow given that he was a neighborhood watch and the police of that area allegedly suck. | ||
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Forgottenfrog
United States1268 Posts
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Arghmyliver
United States1077 Posts
On July 15 2012 06:12 Lightwip wrote: Here's the quote: It's not that he was walking, it was that he was acting funny. He later describes in more detail how Trayvon kept randomly looking at houses. That could be reason enough to think that he might be planning to rob someone. Also, Zimmerman and Trayvon are about the same height (Trayvon is 2in taller). Definitely a build that would allow him to fight Zimmerman given no gun. While they are approximately the same height, Zimmerman weighs over one hundred pounds more than the kid who allegedly knocked him to the ground with a single punch. | ||
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ticklishmusic
United States15977 Posts
On July 15 2012 08:59 Arghmyliver wrote: While they are approximately the same height, Zimmerman weighs over one hundred pounds more than the kid who allegedly knocked him to the ground with a single punch. Weight doesn't mean much there though. A good punch to the head can get someone bigger than you down pretty easily. No matter how big you are, your brain is still squishy. | ||
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eXigent.
Canada2419 Posts
On July 15 2012 09:08 ticklishmusic wrote: Weight doesn't mean much there though. A good punch to the head can get someone bigger than you down pretty easily. No matter how big you are, your brain is still squishy. You could also have a "glass jaw" as they say in the fighting world. You could be double someones weight, but if they catch you with a solid punch to your chin, odds are you will drop pretty quickly. | ||
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MVega
763 Posts
On July 15 2012 09:32 eXigent. wrote: You could also have a "glass jaw" as they say in the fighting world. You could be double someones weight, but if they catch you with a solid punch to your chin, odds are you will drop pretty quickly. There are lots of variables. Height and weight differences make a difference, but there are lots of other things that influence the outcome of a fight. Assuming for a moment that Zimmerman was surprised by Trayvon's alleged violent response to being followed, that swings the fight into Trayvon's favor. Experience also plays a role as well, if Trayvon had more experience than Zimmerman that gives him an advantage as well. Response to fear also plays a factor. If Zimmerman was afraid of Trayvon and didn't respond well to that fear he could be at a disadvantage by making critical mistakes. Since we weren't there it's really hard to say how it went down. A real fist fight amongst normal people is vastly different from something like an MMA match. | ||
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