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Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action. |
On February 22 2018 01:16 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2018 01:05 Danglars wrote:On February 22 2018 00:44 Plansix wrote:
You know what would be really helpful for the discussion? Not using overly broad terms like: the media, gun owners, leftists, the right and so on.
If you got a problem with coverage, point out a specific piece or opinion. If people don’t like the NRA, be specific and say you don’t like the leadership of the NRA and their hardline stance. Be specific.
As I have said a number of times, I have no problem with NRA members. I do not like the way the NRA leadership operates and I am increasingly suspect that they are the political tool of the gun industry. Especially in the last 10 years.
And I don’t like how the big legacy media outlets mislead on gun owners, gun violence, and guns. They spread the news that this was the 18th school shooting this year. They singled out the AR-15 as uniquely bad (and major columnists saying it had no reason to stay unbanned). These things hurt the dialogue in a high degree, but all anyone talks about is the NRA’s hardline stances, like its rather unique. This thread is a perfect example of the results. I really would prefer an accurate depiction of both sides. That involves pointing out all reasons why bump stocks aren’t banned or why gun owners fear incoming regulations will impact their freedoms. You see, you keep doing it. It is like you don’t know how to talk about the issue without lumping all of the media in the entire US, from local papers to MSNBC into one fat group. I can’t tell if it is habit or you keep doing it on purpose. The NYT put out like two op-eds supporting gun ownership and saying an assault rifle ban wouldn’t work since the shooting, so I don’t even know about this legacy you seem to feel exists. Your calls for accuracy fall flat when you are unable to articulate who the other side of the argument is in specific terms.
I refuse to close to my eyes to the general trend just because there exist exceptions. The NRA supported a ban on bump stocks. Do I obey your advice and tell the left that they’re a force for good on gun rights/gun control? Nonsense.
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On February 22 2018 00:09 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2018 23:37 Broetchenholer wrote:On February 21 2018 12:45 Danglars wrote:You know it's bad when you have to go to GQ to get an informed media article on guns:
1. Banning assault weapons would do almost nothing
After every high-profile shooting, Democrats like Hillary Clinton call for a ban on “assault weapons,” the military-style rifles that have been dubbed the weapon of choice for mass shooters.
There’s a problem with this popular liberal idea: banning these guns would not do much to save American lives. Only 3.6 percent of America’s gun murders are committed with any kind of rifle, according to FBI data. The majority of gun murders are committed with handguns. Even the Democratic staffers who wrote the now-expired 1994 federal assault weapon ban knew it was a largely symbolic policy.
There’s some evidence that banning high-capacity ammunition magazines might—over the very long term—reduce gun injuries. But a ban on the guns themselves “does nothing,” a former Obama administration official said last year. Though the White House endorsed a renewed ban after Sandy Hook, “we did the bare minimum,” the official said. “We would have pushed a lot harder if we had believed in it.”
The real effect of Democrats’ decades-long war on “assault weapons,” some advocates speculate, is that it’s simply made military-style guns more popular.
2. Owning 17 guns really isn’t that extreme
Just 3% of American adults own half the country’s guns, a new Harvard/Northeastern study estimated—and they own an average of 17 guns each.
To a non-gun owner, this might sound like a lot. But you have to think of guns as tools: a few different rifles for hunting different kinds of game, plus a shotgun, a handgun or two for self-protection, and some antique guns inherited from your grandfather. It adds up fast.
As one gun rights activist put it, “Why do you need more than one pair of shoes? The truth is, you don’t, but do you want more than one pair of shoes? If you’re going hiking, you don’t want to use that one pair of high heels.”
3. Only a tiny fraction of America’s guns are used in crimes
American civilians own between 265 million and 400 million guns. That’s at least one gun for every American adult. (There’s no official national count. Gun rights advocates are fiercely private about gun ownership and fear that if the government can track guns, it will be able to confiscate them.) Gun control advocates often note that America’s gun murder rate is 25 times higher than other high-income countries, and that this drives an overall murder rate than is 7 times higher than other rich countries.
But the vast majority of America’s gun owners—and their guns—aren’t involved in this violence. About 100,000 Americans are killed or violently injured with guns each year—a number that includes gun suicides. The total number of crimes involving guns is higher: as many as 500,000 a year, according to Justice Department estimates.
Roughly speaking, that means that fewer than 1% of American guns are used in recorded crime or violence each year. Most of America’s hundreds of millions of guns are sitting in gun safes, being used for target practice or hunting, and causing no harm at all.
4. Gun crime dropped even as Americans bought more firearms
After the school shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary School in 2012, pollsters asked if Americans thought gun crime was increasing or decreasing. 56% said gun crime had gone up over the past two decades. Only 12% knew the truth: gun murders had dropped by nearly 50% since the early 1990s. Over the same time period, Americans bought an estimated 70 million more guns.
This trend isn’t proof that more guns equal less crime—many factors drove a spike in gun violence in the early 1990s, and a drop afterwards. But it does show that the relationship between America’s high gun ownership rates and its high gun murder rates is more complex than a simple correlation.
GQ 1) Did you know that direct deaths of Nuclear Bombs in WW2 were only around 200k? That amounts to only about 1% of all losses ok WW2. Banning nuclear weapons therefore has no impact whatsoever. 2) Yeah, i'll give you that. A dedicated hunter might have quite a few rifles/shotguns. It get's ridiculous when someone has 10 pistols for "home protection" or a semi automatic long rifle against those - to quote a great pc game classic - really aggressive deer. 3. Did you know that the majority of all knives in America are not used in Crimes? Roughly speaking,fewer then 0,00001 percent of all knives are used in recorded crime or violence each year. True fact. 4. Violent crimes dropped statistically globally since the 1990 by 50 %. The USA is absolutely no outlier in this regard. Good job USA. How exactly are you allowed to call us out for using "wrong" statistics and emotional responses to the problem if this is what you refer to? Nobody believes banning semi automatic long rifles will stop gun violence. It will take away a toy that has no objective value for society but enables people to kill 50 people in a span of minutes. The second point is irrelevant. If your society treats hunting as a hobby like bowling, that's fine. It doesn't mean it has to stay that way though. You could pass legislation that limits the ability to hoard them. If your society decides it doesn't want "owning weapons" on a level of owning shoes then suddenly 17 again is a lot. Three and four are simply using statistics that suit the NRA agenda and say them with enough confidence so that the own people believe it. There is nothing else to it. The thread has now passed on though and some of the ideas here are good starting points. Banning all magazines with capacieties greater 10 is for example a good idea. The problem stays that you already have too many guns with high capacity magazines though. Needing reasons for something is fine as well, just treat it with a hint of computer game balance. You are only allowed to have x weapons of type y. Choose wisely. As your life progresses you can of course change your choice. Means, if you wanna buy a "hunting weapon", the clerk will tell you that you already own a double barrel shotgun and a remington. If you now want a third, you have to give back one of the other. And when you want a new pistol, bring back your old. You lost your pistol, okay, sir, please pay a fine that is higher then the purchase of a new one. You want to own a pumpgun? Sir, that is a military grade weapon, you don't need that much weapon for hunting or self defense. 1.) Maybe you would need to be an American to hear the familiar call to ban assault weapons in the wake of every school shooting. The comparison to nuclear weapons doesn’t make sense here. People think the deadliest mass shooting was with an AR-15, instead of the actual two pistols that were used. 3) Maybe your point is to ban knives in the hopes that criminals will get less of them. 4) You would think from media reports that the country is witnessing unprecedented levels of gun violence, caused by lax gun laws. This is untrue. The fact that you’re fighting this shows ignorance or perversity. It still remains that the loudest voices are the most uninformed ones on this topic. When you hear facts you don’t like, don’t be that guy that assumes the side they lend credence to invalidates the statistic. These are ground rules for the debates that everybody should know ... but certain Europeans and American leftists want to cover their eyes. You have got to hear both sides to actually claim to think. I’m not talking about hearing that the media says about the NRA amounts to hearing both sides. That’s foolishness.
1) No. BAnning semi automatic long rifles is a reasonable start because those weapons have the worst usefulness to threat ratio. It's like claiming that people should be allowed to attach spinning blades to their monster tracks because most deaths by a vehicle was in fact done by a Prius without spinning blades. The argument that semi automatic long rifles are not the problem because pistols are a worse problem is not an argument. Society has a history of allowing stuff that it shouldn't if it creates some kind of benefit to society. I don't agree on that, but one could say small firearms have value for american society because if everyone has one, everyone can defend itself and his/her property against everyone else. We accept this as a benefit. Pistols are the prius that can be used to cause death, but we accept that because it also grants us mobility. The AR-15 however is a solution to a problem that does not exist in civil society. It is a "fun" weapon and fun is usually not enough to counter the threat something has to society.
3) No, my point is that this statistic is fucking stupid. surprisingly, the percentage of guns used for violent gun crime is limited to the percentage of vieloent gun crime in your country, no matter how many guns you own. If you are saturated on guns, like you are, increasing that number times 2 means the number of weapons used for violence has just dropped magically by half. Even in the US the number of violent crimes is low enough to only amout to 1% of all guns, which seems really low, which is whiy it was said in the first place.
4) I never fought this. Start responding to what i say and not what youz want me to have said to fir your narrative. The murder rates of all OECD countries dropped massively over the last 3 decades. It's a global phenomenon probably caused by changes in demographics or economy or social structure common everywhere. The fact that the source you are quoting uses this fact to try and sell this as a reason why gun control cannot work and then you blame me and call me ignorant and perverse because i am fighting facts? WHAT THE FUCK?? You have voted for the guy that said America is a zombieapocalypse and onle he can bring law and order back. All i have ever read here on this forum is people complaining that gun rampages are not being addressed now and have not been addressed for years. That is something different then claiming the murder rate went up. That is what your president said, whom you defend whenever you have the chance.
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On February 22 2018 01:24 ahswtini wrote:
I can fully understand why gun owners refuse to "compromise" on any further gun control measures (I say compromise in inverted commas, because any compromise generally tends to be gun owners are subjected to more restrictions and get nothing in return). Rights, when taken away, are very rarely restored. Gun owners believe that their rights will be continually chipped away. Everytime something bad happens, restrictions are enacted. The next time something bad happens, more restrictions. The net result will be, mass shootings will continue and the restrictions did seemingly nothing to stop it. But will those restrictions be reversed? Of course not, because those restrictions are seen as better than nothing, even if their effectiveness is questionable.
Gun owners can simply point to the UK, where there are currently moves to require firearms certificates for air rifles and air pistols. To say this will seriously harm grassroots shooting in the UK is an understatement. The requirement for an FAC brings added costs, not just in applying for the license, but also for arranging secure storage of those air weapons. The UK govt also want to ban the 20 or 30 odd .50 cal rifles in civilian hands in the country. Their reasoning is that terrorists "might" get their hands on them. The notion that a terrorist would want to source an exceedingly rare rifle, one that they are unlikely to have any training with, and also a rifle that is large and unwieldy, and use it in an attack is ridiculous.
Yep. All of this. Your rights are chipped away and not restored when regulations are found to be ineffective in their aims. It’s a ratcheting effect ... always the same or a little more. If this were not the case, I’d feel very differently on the issue and I’d expect almost everyone that thinks like me too. This history on the issue is my choice for the biggest reason why discussion stalls.
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On February 22 2018 01:29 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2018 01:16 Plansix wrote:On February 22 2018 01:05 Danglars wrote:On February 22 2018 00:44 Plansix wrote:
You know what would be really helpful for the discussion? Not using overly broad terms like: the media, gun owners, leftists, the right and so on.
If you got a problem with coverage, point out a specific piece or opinion. If people don’t like the NRA, be specific and say you don’t like the leadership of the NRA and their hardline stance. Be specific.
As I have said a number of times, I have no problem with NRA members. I do not like the way the NRA leadership operates and I am increasingly suspect that they are the political tool of the gun industry. Especially in the last 10 years.
And I don’t like how the big legacy media outlets mislead on gun owners, gun violence, and guns. They spread the news that this was the 18th school shooting this year. They singled out the AR-15 as uniquely bad (and major columnists saying it had no reason to stay unbanned). These things hurt the dialogue in a high degree, but all anyone talks about is the NRA’s hardline stances, like its rather unique. This thread is a perfect example of the results. I really would prefer an accurate depiction of both sides. That involves pointing out all reasons why bump stocks aren’t banned or why gun owners fear incoming regulations will impact their freedoms. You see, you keep doing it. It is like you don’t know how to talk about the issue without lumping all of the media in the entire US, from local papers to MSNBC into one fat group. I can’t tell if it is habit or you keep doing it on purpose. The NYT put out like two op-eds supporting gun ownership and saying an assault rifle ban wouldn’t work since the shooting, so I don’t even know about this legacy you seem to feel exists. Your calls for accuracy fall flat when you are unable to articulate who the other side of the argument is in specific terms. I refuse to close to my eyes to the general trend just because there exist exceptions. The NRA supported a ban on bump stocks. Do I obey your advice and tell the left that they’re a force for good on gun rights/gun control? Nonsense.
If you are unwilling to hold yourself to the same standard that you demand of people that disagree with you, there is no reason for them to listen to you. You call for people to listen to each other, but then simply refuse to refine your points when asked.
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Northern Ireland22207 Posts
On February 22 2018 01:33 Broetchenholer wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2018 00:09 Danglars wrote:On February 21 2018 23:37 Broetchenholer wrote:On February 21 2018 12:45 Danglars wrote:You know it's bad when you have to go to GQ to get an informed media article on guns:
1. Banning assault weapons would do almost nothing
After every high-profile shooting, Democrats like Hillary Clinton call for a ban on “assault weapons,” the military-style rifles that have been dubbed the weapon of choice for mass shooters.
There’s a problem with this popular liberal idea: banning these guns would not do much to save American lives. Only 3.6 percent of America’s gun murders are committed with any kind of rifle, according to FBI data. The majority of gun murders are committed with handguns. Even the Democratic staffers who wrote the now-expired 1994 federal assault weapon ban knew it was a largely symbolic policy.
There’s some evidence that banning high-capacity ammunition magazines might—over the very long term—reduce gun injuries. But a ban on the guns themselves “does nothing,” a former Obama administration official said last year. Though the White House endorsed a renewed ban after Sandy Hook, “we did the bare minimum,” the official said. “We would have pushed a lot harder if we had believed in it.”
The real effect of Democrats’ decades-long war on “assault weapons,” some advocates speculate, is that it’s simply made military-style guns more popular.
2. Owning 17 guns really isn’t that extreme
Just 3% of American adults own half the country’s guns, a new Harvard/Northeastern study estimated—and they own an average of 17 guns each.
To a non-gun owner, this might sound like a lot. But you have to think of guns as tools: a few different rifles for hunting different kinds of game, plus a shotgun, a handgun or two for self-protection, and some antique guns inherited from your grandfather. It adds up fast.
As one gun rights activist put it, “Why do you need more than one pair of shoes? The truth is, you don’t, but do you want more than one pair of shoes? If you’re going hiking, you don’t want to use that one pair of high heels.”
3. Only a tiny fraction of America’s guns are used in crimes
American civilians own between 265 million and 400 million guns. That’s at least one gun for every American adult. (There’s no official national count. Gun rights advocates are fiercely private about gun ownership and fear that if the government can track guns, it will be able to confiscate them.) Gun control advocates often note that America’s gun murder rate is 25 times higher than other high-income countries, and that this drives an overall murder rate than is 7 times higher than other rich countries.
But the vast majority of America’s gun owners—and their guns—aren’t involved in this violence. About 100,000 Americans are killed or violently injured with guns each year—a number that includes gun suicides. The total number of crimes involving guns is higher: as many as 500,000 a year, according to Justice Department estimates.
Roughly speaking, that means that fewer than 1% of American guns are used in recorded crime or violence each year. Most of America’s hundreds of millions of guns are sitting in gun safes, being used for target practice or hunting, and causing no harm at all.
4. Gun crime dropped even as Americans bought more firearms
After the school shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary School in 2012, pollsters asked if Americans thought gun crime was increasing or decreasing. 56% said gun crime had gone up over the past two decades. Only 12% knew the truth: gun murders had dropped by nearly 50% since the early 1990s. Over the same time period, Americans bought an estimated 70 million more guns.
This trend isn’t proof that more guns equal less crime—many factors drove a spike in gun violence in the early 1990s, and a drop afterwards. But it does show that the relationship between America’s high gun ownership rates and its high gun murder rates is more complex than a simple correlation.
GQ 1) Did you know that direct deaths of Nuclear Bombs in WW2 were only around 200k? That amounts to only about 1% of all losses ok WW2. Banning nuclear weapons therefore has no impact whatsoever. 2) Yeah, i'll give you that. A dedicated hunter might have quite a few rifles/shotguns. It get's ridiculous when someone has 10 pistols for "home protection" or a semi automatic long rifle against those - to quote a great pc game classic - really aggressive deer. 3. Did you know that the majority of all knives in America are not used in Crimes? Roughly speaking,fewer then 0,00001 percent of all knives are used in recorded crime or violence each year. True fact. 4. Violent crimes dropped statistically globally since the 1990 by 50 %. The USA is absolutely no outlier in this regard. Good job USA. How exactly are you allowed to call us out for using "wrong" statistics and emotional responses to the problem if this is what you refer to? Nobody believes banning semi automatic long rifles will stop gun violence. It will take away a toy that has no objective value for society but enables people to kill 50 people in a span of minutes. The second point is irrelevant. If your society treats hunting as a hobby like bowling, that's fine. It doesn't mean it has to stay that way though. You could pass legislation that limits the ability to hoard them. If your society decides it doesn't want "owning weapons" on a level of owning shoes then suddenly 17 again is a lot. Three and four are simply using statistics that suit the NRA agenda and say them with enough confidence so that the own people believe it. There is nothing else to it. The thread has now passed on though and some of the ideas here are good starting points. Banning all magazines with capacieties greater 10 is for example a good idea. The problem stays that you already have too many guns with high capacity magazines though. Needing reasons for something is fine as well, just treat it with a hint of computer game balance. You are only allowed to have x weapons of type y. Choose wisely. As your life progresses you can of course change your choice. Means, if you wanna buy a "hunting weapon", the clerk will tell you that you already own a double barrel shotgun and a remington. If you now want a third, you have to give back one of the other. And when you want a new pistol, bring back your old. You lost your pistol, okay, sir, please pay a fine that is higher then the purchase of a new one. You want to own a pumpgun? Sir, that is a military grade weapon, you don't need that much weapon for hunting or self defense. 1.) Maybe you would need to be an American to hear the familiar call to ban assault weapons in the wake of every school shooting. The comparison to nuclear weapons doesn’t make sense here. People think the deadliest mass shooting was with an AR-15, instead of the actual two pistols that were used. 3) Maybe your point is to ban knives in the hopes that criminals will get less of them. 4) You would think from media reports that the country is witnessing unprecedented levels of gun violence, caused by lax gun laws. This is untrue. The fact that you’re fighting this shows ignorance or perversity. It still remains that the loudest voices are the most uninformed ones on this topic. When you hear facts you don’t like, don’t be that guy that assumes the side they lend credence to invalidates the statistic. These are ground rules for the debates that everybody should know ... but certain Europeans and American leftists want to cover their eyes. You have got to hear both sides to actually claim to think. I’m not talking about hearing that the media says about the NRA amounts to hearing both sides. That’s foolishness. 1) No. BAnning semi automatic long rifles is a reasonable start because those weapons have the worst usefulness to threat ratio. It's like claiming that people should be allowed to attach spinning blades to their monster tracks because most deaths by a vehicle was in fact done by a Prius without spinning blades. The argument that semi automatic long rifles are not the problem because pistols are a worse problem is not an argument. Society has a history of allowing stuff that it shouldn't if it creates some kind of benefit to society. I don't agree on that, but one could say small firearms have value for american society because if everyone has one, everyone can defend itself and his/her property against everyone else. We accept this as a benefit. Pistols are the prius that can be used to cause death, but we accept that because it also grants us mobility. The AR-15 however is a solution to a problem that does not exist in civil society. It is a "fun" weapon and fun is usually not enough to counter the threat something has to society. 3) No, my point is that this statistic is fucking stupid. surprisingly, the percentage of guns used for violent gun crime is limited to the percentage of vieloent gun crime in your country, no matter how many guns you own. If you are saturated on guns, like you are, increasing that number times 2 means the number of weapons used for violence has just dropped magically by half. Even in the US the number of violent crimes is low enough to only amout to 1% of all guns, which seems really low, which is whiy it was said in the first place. 4) I never fought this. Start responding to what i say and not what youz want me to have said to fir your narrative. The murder rates of all OECD countries dropped massively over the last 3 decades. It's a global phenomenon probably caused by changes in demographics or economy or social structure common everywhere. The fact that the source you are quoting uses this fact to try and sell this as a reason why gun control cannot work and then you blame me and call me ignorant and perverse because i am fighting facts? WHAT THE FUCK?? You have voted for the guy that said America is a zombieapocalypse and onle he can bring law and order back. All i have ever read here on this forum is people complaining that gun rampages are not being addressed now and have not been addressed for years. That is something different then claiming the murder rate went up. That is what your president said, whom you defend whenever you have the chance.
1. semi-automatic rifles are probably the best weapon for home defence. pistols lack power but are also more difficult to shoot. shotguns are heavy recoiling, especially for female or younger shooters. semi auto carbines match the stopping power of a rifle round with the controllability of an intermediate rifle round (5.56)
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On February 22 2018 01:34 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2018 01:24 ahswtini wrote:
I can fully understand why gun owners refuse to "compromise" on any further gun control measures (I say compromise in inverted commas, because any compromise generally tends to be gun owners are subjected to more restrictions and get nothing in return). Rights, when taken away, are very rarely restored. Gun owners believe that their rights will be continually chipped away. Everytime something bad happens, restrictions are enacted. The next time something bad happens, more restrictions. The net result will be, mass shootings will continue and the restrictions did seemingly nothing to stop it. But will those restrictions be reversed? Of course not, because those restrictions are seen as better than nothing, even if their effectiveness is questionable.
Gun owners can simply point to the UK, where there are currently moves to require firearms certificates for air rifles and air pistols. To say this will seriously harm grassroots shooting in the UK is an understatement. The requirement for an FAC brings added costs, not just in applying for the license, but also for arranging secure storage of those air weapons. The UK govt also want to ban the 20 or 30 odd .50 cal rifles in civilian hands in the country. Their reasoning is that terrorists "might" get their hands on them. The notion that a terrorist would want to source an exceedingly rare rifle, one that they are unlikely to have any training with, and also a rifle that is large and unwieldy, and use it in an attack is ridiculous. Yep. All of this. Your rights are chipped away and not restored when regulations are found to be ineffective in their aims. It’s a ratcheting effect ... always the same or a little more. If this were not the case, I’d feel very differently on the issue and I’d expect almost everyone that thinks like me too. This history on the issue is my choice for the biggest reason why discussion stalls.
That is what society does, it takes away rights of people if it feels they conflict with the greater good of everyone else. What about the people that feels they have the right to now live next to someone who owns a gun? Why is their right not in your equation. You make it sound as if the compromise is you lose something while no one else gains something. In the US, gun proponents had everything on their sight while gun opponents have lost their freedom over and over and over again. It's called a compromise because the other side gains something it didn't have before and you would rather not give them anything because you want it all on your side.
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On February 22 2018 01:33 Broetchenholer wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2018 00:09 Danglars wrote:On February 21 2018 23:37 Broetchenholer wrote:On February 21 2018 12:45 Danglars wrote:You know it's bad when you have to go to GQ to get an informed media article on guns:
1. Banning assault weapons would do almost nothing
After every high-profile shooting, Democrats like Hillary Clinton call for a ban on “assault weapons,” the military-style rifles that have been dubbed the weapon of choice for mass shooters.
There’s a problem with this popular liberal idea: banning these guns would not do much to save American lives. Only 3.6 percent of America’s gun murders are committed with any kind of rifle, according to FBI data. The majority of gun murders are committed with handguns. Even the Democratic staffers who wrote the now-expired 1994 federal assault weapon ban knew it was a largely symbolic policy.
There’s some evidence that banning high-capacity ammunition magazines might—over the very long term—reduce gun injuries. But a ban on the guns themselves “does nothing,” a former Obama administration official said last year. Though the White House endorsed a renewed ban after Sandy Hook, “we did the bare minimum,” the official said. “We would have pushed a lot harder if we had believed in it.”
The real effect of Democrats’ decades-long war on “assault weapons,” some advocates speculate, is that it’s simply made military-style guns more popular.
2. Owning 17 guns really isn’t that extreme
Just 3% of American adults own half the country’s guns, a new Harvard/Northeastern study estimated—and they own an average of 17 guns each.
To a non-gun owner, this might sound like a lot. But you have to think of guns as tools: a few different rifles for hunting different kinds of game, plus a shotgun, a handgun or two for self-protection, and some antique guns inherited from your grandfather. It adds up fast.
As one gun rights activist put it, “Why do you need more than one pair of shoes? The truth is, you don’t, but do you want more than one pair of shoes? If you’re going hiking, you don’t want to use that one pair of high heels.”
3. Only a tiny fraction of America’s guns are used in crimes
American civilians own between 265 million and 400 million guns. That’s at least one gun for every American adult. (There’s no official national count. Gun rights advocates are fiercely private about gun ownership and fear that if the government can track guns, it will be able to confiscate them.) Gun control advocates often note that America’s gun murder rate is 25 times higher than other high-income countries, and that this drives an overall murder rate than is 7 times higher than other rich countries.
But the vast majority of America’s gun owners—and their guns—aren’t involved in this violence. About 100,000 Americans are killed or violently injured with guns each year—a number that includes gun suicides. The total number of crimes involving guns is higher: as many as 500,000 a year, according to Justice Department estimates.
Roughly speaking, that means that fewer than 1% of American guns are used in recorded crime or violence each year. Most of America’s hundreds of millions of guns are sitting in gun safes, being used for target practice or hunting, and causing no harm at all.
4. Gun crime dropped even as Americans bought more firearms
After the school shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary School in 2012, pollsters asked if Americans thought gun crime was increasing or decreasing. 56% said gun crime had gone up over the past two decades. Only 12% knew the truth: gun murders had dropped by nearly 50% since the early 1990s. Over the same time period, Americans bought an estimated 70 million more guns.
This trend isn’t proof that more guns equal less crime—many factors drove a spike in gun violence in the early 1990s, and a drop afterwards. But it does show that the relationship between America’s high gun ownership rates and its high gun murder rates is more complex than a simple correlation.
GQ 1) Did you know that direct deaths of Nuclear Bombs in WW2 were only around 200k? That amounts to only about 1% of all losses ok WW2. Banning nuclear weapons therefore has no impact whatsoever. 2) Yeah, i'll give you that. A dedicated hunter might have quite a few rifles/shotguns. It get's ridiculous when someone has 10 pistols for "home protection" or a semi automatic long rifle against those - to quote a great pc game classic - really aggressive deer. 3. Did you know that the majority of all knives in America are not used in Crimes? Roughly speaking,fewer then 0,00001 percent of all knives are used in recorded crime or violence each year. True fact. 4. Violent crimes dropped statistically globally since the 1990 by 50 %. The USA is absolutely no outlier in this regard. Good job USA. How exactly are you allowed to call us out for using "wrong" statistics and emotional responses to the problem if this is what you refer to? Nobody believes banning semi automatic long rifles will stop gun violence. It will take away a toy that has no objective value for society but enables people to kill 50 people in a span of minutes. The second point is irrelevant. If your society treats hunting as a hobby like bowling, that's fine. It doesn't mean it has to stay that way though. You could pass legislation that limits the ability to hoard them. If your society decides it doesn't want "owning weapons" on a level of owning shoes then suddenly 17 again is a lot. Three and four are simply using statistics that suit the NRA agenda and say them with enough confidence so that the own people believe it. There is nothing else to it. The thread has now passed on though and some of the ideas here are good starting points. Banning all magazines with capacieties greater 10 is for example a good idea. The problem stays that you already have too many guns with high capacity magazines though. Needing reasons for something is fine as well, just treat it with a hint of computer game balance. You are only allowed to have x weapons of type y. Choose wisely. As your life progresses you can of course change your choice. Means, if you wanna buy a "hunting weapon", the clerk will tell you that you already own a double barrel shotgun and a remington. If you now want a third, you have to give back one of the other. And when you want a new pistol, bring back your old. You lost your pistol, okay, sir, please pay a fine that is higher then the purchase of a new one. You want to own a pumpgun? Sir, that is a military grade weapon, you don't need that much weapon for hunting or self defense. 1.) Maybe you would need to be an American to hear the familiar call to ban assault weapons in the wake of every school shooting. The comparison to nuclear weapons doesn’t make sense here. People think the deadliest mass shooting was with an AR-15, instead of the actual two pistols that were used. 3) Maybe your point is to ban knives in the hopes that criminals will get less of them. 4) You would think from media reports that the country is witnessing unprecedented levels of gun violence, caused by lax gun laws. This is untrue. The fact that you’re fighting this shows ignorance or perversity. It still remains that the loudest voices are the most uninformed ones on this topic. When you hear facts you don’t like, don’t be that guy that assumes the side they lend credence to invalidates the statistic. These are ground rules for the debates that everybody should know ... but certain Europeans and American leftists want to cover their eyes. You have got to hear both sides to actually claim to think. I’m not talking about hearing that the media says about the NRA amounts to hearing both sides. That’s foolishness. 1) No. BAnning semi automatic long rifles is a reasonable start because those weapons have the worst usefulness to threat ratio. It's like claiming that people should be allowed to attach spinning blades to their monster tracks because most deaths by a vehicle was in fact done by a Prius without spinning blades. The argument that semi automatic long rifles are not the problem because pistols are a worse problem is not an argument. Society has a history of allowing stuff that it shouldn't if it creates some kind of benefit to society. I don't agree on that, but one could say small firearms have value for american society because if everyone has one, everyone can defend itself and his/her property against everyone else. We accept this as a benefit. Pistols are the prius that can be used to cause death, but we accept that because it also grants us mobility. The AR-15 however is a solution to a problem that does not exist in civil society. It is a "fun" weapon and fun is usually not enough to counter the threat something has to society. 3) No, my point is that this statistic is fucking stupid. surprisingly, the percentage of guns used for violent gun crime is limited to the percentage of vieloent gun crime in your country, no matter how many guns you own. If you are saturated on guns, like you are, increasing that number times 2 means the number of weapons used for violence has just dropped magically by half. Even in the US the number of violent crimes is low enough to only amout to 1% of all guns, which seems really low, which is whiy it was said in the first place. 4) I never fought this. Start responding to what i say and not what youz want me to have said to fir your narrative. The murder rates of all OECD countries dropped massively over the last 3 decades. It's a global phenomenon probably caused by changes in demographics or economy or social structure common everywhere. The fact that the source you are quoting uses this fact to try and sell this as a reason why gun control cannot work and then you blame me and call me ignorant and perverse because i am fighting facts? WHAT THE FUCK?? You have voted for the guy that said America is a zombieapocalypse and onle he can bring law and order back. All i have ever read here on this forum is people complaining that gun rampages are not being addressed now and have not been addressed for years. That is something different then claiming the murder rate went up. That is what your president said, whom you defend whenever you have the chance.
1) I don’t acknowledge your characterization of “usefulness to threat ratio.” They’re popular for their useful characteristics. They aren’t popular because the country is filled with potential school shooters that want to be prepared to go kill some kids. You’re acting like th buyers are idiots, which is exactly why myself and others point out the demonization of gun owners. You sit in judgement of the tradeoffs you choose to highlight. Get lost.
3) You were the one that brought up knife statistics. Gun control proponents have long argued that reducing the accessibility of guns will helpfully reduce the amount criminals can acquire and use by proxy. It would be like banning knives because a small percentage are used to unlawful purposes. Oops. Doesn’t work for your argument.
4) Nope. Read the article again. It’s correcting falsehoods. People feel like recent mass shootings mean violence in this country is on the rise, and new regulations on guns is a necessary “do something” response.
But please keep talking about “You have voted for the guy that said America is a zombieapocalypse.” We need more people to realize how crazy some people on the other side (or on their side) really are. The hatred and emotional response is absolutely palpable. We need more people to recognize why gun owners are justified on slamming the brakes to respond to the unabashed craziness.
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Younger shooters... My god. Not strong/grown enough to fire a gun but able to potentially killing someone for entering the wrong house...
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On February 22 2018 01:41 ahswtini wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2018 01:33 Broetchenholer wrote:On February 22 2018 00:09 Danglars wrote:On February 21 2018 23:37 Broetchenholer wrote:On February 21 2018 12:45 Danglars wrote:You know it's bad when you have to go to GQ to get an informed media article on guns:
1. Banning assault weapons would do almost nothing
After every high-profile shooting, Democrats like Hillary Clinton call for a ban on “assault weapons,” the military-style rifles that have been dubbed the weapon of choice for mass shooters.
There’s a problem with this popular liberal idea: banning these guns would not do much to save American lives. Only 3.6 percent of America’s gun murders are committed with any kind of rifle, according to FBI data. The majority of gun murders are committed with handguns. Even the Democratic staffers who wrote the now-expired 1994 federal assault weapon ban knew it was a largely symbolic policy.
There’s some evidence that banning high-capacity ammunition magazines might—over the very long term—reduce gun injuries. But a ban on the guns themselves “does nothing,” a former Obama administration official said last year. Though the White House endorsed a renewed ban after Sandy Hook, “we did the bare minimum,” the official said. “We would have pushed a lot harder if we had believed in it.”
The real effect of Democrats’ decades-long war on “assault weapons,” some advocates speculate, is that it’s simply made military-style guns more popular.
2. Owning 17 guns really isn’t that extreme
Just 3% of American adults own half the country’s guns, a new Harvard/Northeastern study estimated—and they own an average of 17 guns each.
To a non-gun owner, this might sound like a lot. But you have to think of guns as tools: a few different rifles for hunting different kinds of game, plus a shotgun, a handgun or two for self-protection, and some antique guns inherited from your grandfather. It adds up fast.
As one gun rights activist put it, “Why do you need more than one pair of shoes? The truth is, you don’t, but do you want more than one pair of shoes? If you’re going hiking, you don’t want to use that one pair of high heels.”
3. Only a tiny fraction of America’s guns are used in crimes
American civilians own between 265 million and 400 million guns. That’s at least one gun for every American adult. (There’s no official national count. Gun rights advocates are fiercely private about gun ownership and fear that if the government can track guns, it will be able to confiscate them.) Gun control advocates often note that America’s gun murder rate is 25 times higher than other high-income countries, and that this drives an overall murder rate than is 7 times higher than other rich countries.
But the vast majority of America’s gun owners—and their guns—aren’t involved in this violence. About 100,000 Americans are killed or violently injured with guns each year—a number that includes gun suicides. The total number of crimes involving guns is higher: as many as 500,000 a year, according to Justice Department estimates.
Roughly speaking, that means that fewer than 1% of American guns are used in recorded crime or violence each year. Most of America’s hundreds of millions of guns are sitting in gun safes, being used for target practice or hunting, and causing no harm at all.
4. Gun crime dropped even as Americans bought more firearms
After the school shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary School in 2012, pollsters asked if Americans thought gun crime was increasing or decreasing. 56% said gun crime had gone up over the past two decades. Only 12% knew the truth: gun murders had dropped by nearly 50% since the early 1990s. Over the same time period, Americans bought an estimated 70 million more guns.
This trend isn’t proof that more guns equal less crime—many factors drove a spike in gun violence in the early 1990s, and a drop afterwards. But it does show that the relationship between America’s high gun ownership rates and its high gun murder rates is more complex than a simple correlation.
GQ 1) Did you know that direct deaths of Nuclear Bombs in WW2 were only around 200k? That amounts to only about 1% of all losses ok WW2. Banning nuclear weapons therefore has no impact whatsoever. 2) Yeah, i'll give you that. A dedicated hunter might have quite a few rifles/shotguns. It get's ridiculous when someone has 10 pistols for "home protection" or a semi automatic long rifle against those - to quote a great pc game classic - really aggressive deer. 3. Did you know that the majority of all knives in America are not used in Crimes? Roughly speaking,fewer then 0,00001 percent of all knives are used in recorded crime or violence each year. True fact. 4. Violent crimes dropped statistically globally since the 1990 by 50 %. The USA is absolutely no outlier in this regard. Good job USA. How exactly are you allowed to call us out for using "wrong" statistics and emotional responses to the problem if this is what you refer to? Nobody believes banning semi automatic long rifles will stop gun violence. It will take away a toy that has no objective value for society but enables people to kill 50 people in a span of minutes. The second point is irrelevant. If your society treats hunting as a hobby like bowling, that's fine. It doesn't mean it has to stay that way though. You could pass legislation that limits the ability to hoard them. If your society decides it doesn't want "owning weapons" on a level of owning shoes then suddenly 17 again is a lot. Three and four are simply using statistics that suit the NRA agenda and say them with enough confidence so that the own people believe it. There is nothing else to it. The thread has now passed on though and some of the ideas here are good starting points. Banning all magazines with capacieties greater 10 is for example a good idea. The problem stays that you already have too many guns with high capacity magazines though. Needing reasons for something is fine as well, just treat it with a hint of computer game balance. You are only allowed to have x weapons of type y. Choose wisely. As your life progresses you can of course change your choice. Means, if you wanna buy a "hunting weapon", the clerk will tell you that you already own a double barrel shotgun and a remington. If you now want a third, you have to give back one of the other. And when you want a new pistol, bring back your old. You lost your pistol, okay, sir, please pay a fine that is higher then the purchase of a new one. You want to own a pumpgun? Sir, that is a military grade weapon, you don't need that much weapon for hunting or self defense. 1.) Maybe you would need to be an American to hear the familiar call to ban assault weapons in the wake of every school shooting. The comparison to nuclear weapons doesn’t make sense here. People think the deadliest mass shooting was with an AR-15, instead of the actual two pistols that were used. 3) Maybe your point is to ban knives in the hopes that criminals will get less of them. 4) You would think from media reports that the country is witnessing unprecedented levels of gun violence, caused by lax gun laws. This is untrue. The fact that you’re fighting this shows ignorance or perversity. It still remains that the loudest voices are the most uninformed ones on this topic. When you hear facts you don’t like, don’t be that guy that assumes the side they lend credence to invalidates the statistic. These are ground rules for the debates that everybody should know ... but certain Europeans and American leftists want to cover their eyes. You have got to hear both sides to actually claim to think. I’m not talking about hearing that the media says about the NRA amounts to hearing both sides. That’s foolishness. 1) No. BAnning semi automatic long rifles is a reasonable start because those weapons have the worst usefulness to threat ratio. It's like claiming that people should be allowed to attach spinning blades to their monster tracks because most deaths by a vehicle was in fact done by a Prius without spinning blades. The argument that semi automatic long rifles are not the problem because pistols are a worse problem is not an argument. Society has a history of allowing stuff that it shouldn't if it creates some kind of benefit to society. I don't agree on that, but one could say small firearms have value for american society because if everyone has one, everyone can defend itself and his/her property against everyone else. We accept this as a benefit. Pistols are the prius that can be used to cause death, but we accept that because it also grants us mobility. The AR-15 however is a solution to a problem that does not exist in civil society. It is a "fun" weapon and fun is usually not enough to counter the threat something has to society. 3) No, my point is that this statistic is fucking stupid. surprisingly, the percentage of guns used for violent gun crime is limited to the percentage of vieloent gun crime in your country, no matter how many guns you own. If you are saturated on guns, like you are, increasing that number times 2 means the number of weapons used for violence has just dropped magically by half. Even in the US the number of violent crimes is low enough to only amout to 1% of all guns, which seems really low, which is whiy it was said in the first place. 4) I never fought this. Start responding to what i say and not what youz want me to have said to fir your narrative. The murder rates of all OECD countries dropped massively over the last 3 decades. It's a global phenomenon probably caused by changes in demographics or economy or social structure common everywhere. The fact that the source you are quoting uses this fact to try and sell this as a reason why gun control cannot work and then you blame me and call me ignorant and perverse because i am fighting facts? WHAT THE FUCK?? You have voted for the guy that said America is a zombieapocalypse and onle he can bring law and order back. All i have ever read here on this forum is people complaining that gun rampages are not being addressed now and have not been addressed for years. That is something different then claiming the murder rate went up. That is what your president said, whom you defend whenever you have the chance. 1. semi-automatic rifles are probably the best weapon for home defence. pistols lack power but are also more difficult to shoot. shotguns are heavy recoiling, especially for female or younger shooters. semi auto carbines match the stopping power of a rifle round with the controllability of an intermediate rifle round (5.56)
Of course they are the best for home defense. That form factor and design was modeled after M-4 carbine, which were designed for urban combat at close to medium range. They are also designed to pump out bullets as fast as you can pull the trigger.
And my very tiny wife can fire a shotgun with no problem. I have never bought into the recoil excuse for why AR-15 is the better choice.
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If the idea behind banning bump stocks is to decrease rate of fire, what rate of child death is the acceptable level?
Without bump stocks, you can still plow through quite a few kids in not too much time. At what rate is a weapon considered too dangerous? 10 kids/minute? 5? We are clearly at a point where we are saying rednecks shooting soda cans on their property may be inconvenienced for the sake of saving a few kids each school shooting. But how inconvenienced? As the constitution clearly states, rednecks must be permitted to shoot soda cans on their property, and at a rate of fire competitive with modern engineering. But if we are willing to so brazenly disregard our founding fathers, how far are we willing to go?
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Northern Ireland22207 Posts
On February 22 2018 01:48 Velr wrote:
Younger shooters... My god. Not strong/grown enough to fire a gun but able to potentially killing someone for entering the wrong house...
yes, plenty of home invaders have been shot by a minor. i suppose you think that's a bad thing.
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On February 22 2018 01:53 ahswtini wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2018 01:48 Velr wrote:
Younger shooters... My god. Not strong/grown enough to fire a gun but able to potentially killing someone for entering the wrong house... yes, plenty of home invaders have been shot by a minor. i suppose you think that's a bad thing.
yes, plenty of kids have shot their siblings in their own home on accident. i suppose you think that's a good thing
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This is the level of very productive discussion on guns I have come to expect from the internet.
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On February 22 2018 01:41 ahswtini wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2018 01:33 Broetchenholer wrote:On February 22 2018 00:09 Danglars wrote:On February 21 2018 23:37 Broetchenholer wrote:On February 21 2018 12:45 Danglars wrote:You know it's bad when you have to go to GQ to get an informed media article on guns:
1. Banning assault weapons would do almost nothing
After every high-profile shooting, Democrats like Hillary Clinton call for a ban on “assault weapons,” the military-style rifles that have been dubbed the weapon of choice for mass shooters.
There’s a problem with this popular liberal idea: banning these guns would not do much to save American lives. Only 3.6 percent of America’s gun murders are committed with any kind of rifle, according to FBI data. The majority of gun murders are committed with handguns. Even the Democratic staffers who wrote the now-expired 1994 federal assault weapon ban knew it was a largely symbolic policy.
There’s some evidence that banning high-capacity ammunition magazines might—over the very long term—reduce gun injuries. But a ban on the guns themselves “does nothing,” a former Obama administration official said last year. Though the White House endorsed a renewed ban after Sandy Hook, “we did the bare minimum,” the official said. “We would have pushed a lot harder if we had believed in it.”
The real effect of Democrats’ decades-long war on “assault weapons,” some advocates speculate, is that it’s simply made military-style guns more popular.
2. Owning 17 guns really isn’t that extreme
Just 3% of American adults own half the country’s guns, a new Harvard/Northeastern study estimated—and they own an average of 17 guns each.
To a non-gun owner, this might sound like a lot. But you have to think of guns as tools: a few different rifles for hunting different kinds of game, plus a shotgun, a handgun or two for self-protection, and some antique guns inherited from your grandfather. It adds up fast.
As one gun rights activist put it, “Why do you need more than one pair of shoes? The truth is, you don’t, but do you want more than one pair of shoes? If you’re going hiking, you don’t want to use that one pair of high heels.”
3. Only a tiny fraction of America’s guns are used in crimes
American civilians own between 265 million and 400 million guns. That’s at least one gun for every American adult. (There’s no official national count. Gun rights advocates are fiercely private about gun ownership and fear that if the government can track guns, it will be able to confiscate them.) Gun control advocates often note that America’s gun murder rate is 25 times higher than other high-income countries, and that this drives an overall murder rate than is 7 times higher than other rich countries.
But the vast majority of America’s gun owners—and their guns—aren’t involved in this violence. About 100,000 Americans are killed or violently injured with guns each year—a number that includes gun suicides. The total number of crimes involving guns is higher: as many as 500,000 a year, according to Justice Department estimates.
Roughly speaking, that means that fewer than 1% of American guns are used in recorded crime or violence each year. Most of America’s hundreds of millions of guns are sitting in gun safes, being used for target practice or hunting, and causing no harm at all.
4. Gun crime dropped even as Americans bought more firearms
After the school shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary School in 2012, pollsters asked if Americans thought gun crime was increasing or decreasing. 56% said gun crime had gone up over the past two decades. Only 12% knew the truth: gun murders had dropped by nearly 50% since the early 1990s. Over the same time period, Americans bought an estimated 70 million more guns.
This trend isn’t proof that more guns equal less crime—many factors drove a spike in gun violence in the early 1990s, and a drop afterwards. But it does show that the relationship between America’s high gun ownership rates and its high gun murder rates is more complex than a simple correlation.
GQ 1) Did you know that direct deaths of Nuclear Bombs in WW2 were only around 200k? That amounts to only about 1% of all losses ok WW2. Banning nuclear weapons therefore has no impact whatsoever. 2) Yeah, i'll give you that. A dedicated hunter might have quite a few rifles/shotguns. It get's ridiculous when someone has 10 pistols for "home protection" or a semi automatic long rifle against those - to quote a great pc game classic - really aggressive deer. 3. Did you know that the majority of all knives in America are not used in Crimes? Roughly speaking,fewer then 0,00001 percent of all knives are used in recorded crime or violence each year. True fact. 4. Violent crimes dropped statistically globally since the 1990 by 50 %. The USA is absolutely no outlier in this regard. Good job USA. How exactly are you allowed to call us out for using "wrong" statistics and emotional responses to the problem if this is what you refer to? Nobody believes banning semi automatic long rifles will stop gun violence. It will take away a toy that has no objective value for society but enables people to kill 50 people in a span of minutes. The second point is irrelevant. If your society treats hunting as a hobby like bowling, that's fine. It doesn't mean it has to stay that way though. You could pass legislation that limits the ability to hoard them. If your society decides it doesn't want "owning weapons" on a level of owning shoes then suddenly 17 again is a lot. Three and four are simply using statistics that suit the NRA agenda and say them with enough confidence so that the own people believe it. There is nothing else to it. The thread has now passed on though and some of the ideas here are good starting points. Banning all magazines with capacieties greater 10 is for example a good idea. The problem stays that you already have too many guns with high capacity magazines though. Needing reasons for something is fine as well, just treat it with a hint of computer game balance. You are only allowed to have x weapons of type y. Choose wisely. As your life progresses you can of course change your choice. Means, if you wanna buy a "hunting weapon", the clerk will tell you that you already own a double barrel shotgun and a remington. If you now want a third, you have to give back one of the other. And when you want a new pistol, bring back your old. You lost your pistol, okay, sir, please pay a fine that is higher then the purchase of a new one. You want to own a pumpgun? Sir, that is a military grade weapon, you don't need that much weapon for hunting or self defense. 1.) Maybe you would need to be an American to hear the familiar call to ban assault weapons in the wake of every school shooting. The comparison to nuclear weapons doesn’t make sense here. People think the deadliest mass shooting was with an AR-15, instead of the actual two pistols that were used. 3) Maybe your point is to ban knives in the hopes that criminals will get less of them. 4) You would think from media reports that the country is witnessing unprecedented levels of gun violence, caused by lax gun laws. This is untrue. The fact that you’re fighting this shows ignorance or perversity. It still remains that the loudest voices are the most uninformed ones on this topic. When you hear facts you don’t like, don’t be that guy that assumes the side they lend credence to invalidates the statistic. These are ground rules for the debates that everybody should know ... but certain Europeans and American leftists want to cover their eyes. You have got to hear both sides to actually claim to think. I’m not talking about hearing that the media says about the NRA amounts to hearing both sides. That’s foolishness. 1) No. BAnning semi automatic long rifles is a reasonable start because those weapons have the worst usefulness to threat ratio. It's like claiming that people should be allowed to attach spinning blades to their monster tracks because most deaths by a vehicle was in fact done by a Prius without spinning blades. The argument that semi automatic long rifles are not the problem because pistols are a worse problem is not an argument. Society has a history of allowing stuff that it shouldn't if it creates some kind of benefit to society. I don't agree on that, but one could say small firearms have value for american society because if everyone has one, everyone can defend itself and his/her property against everyone else. We accept this as a benefit. Pistols are the prius that can be used to cause death, but we accept that because it also grants us mobility. The AR-15 however is a solution to a problem that does not exist in civil society. It is a "fun" weapon and fun is usually not enough to counter the threat something has to society. 3) No, my point is that this statistic is fucking stupid. surprisingly, the percentage of guns used for violent gun crime is limited to the percentage of vieloent gun crime in your country, no matter how many guns you own. If you are saturated on guns, like you are, increasing that number times 2 means the number of weapons used for violence has just dropped magically by half. Even in the US the number of violent crimes is low enough to only amout to 1% of all guns, which seems really low, which is whiy it was said in the first place. 4) I never fought this. Start responding to what i say and not what youz want me to have said to fir your narrative. The murder rates of all OECD countries dropped massively over the last 3 decades. It's a global phenomenon probably caused by changes in demographics or economy or social structure common everywhere. The fact that the source you are quoting uses this fact to try and sell this as a reason why gun control cannot work and then you blame me and call me ignorant and perverse because i am fighting facts? WHAT THE FUCK?? You have voted for the guy that said America is a zombieapocalypse and onle he can bring law and order back. All i have ever read here on this forum is people complaining that gun rampages are not being addressed now and have not been addressed for years. That is something different then claiming the murder rate went up. That is what your president said, whom you defend whenever you have the chance. 1. semi-automatic rifles are probably the best weapon for home defence. pistols lack power but are also more difficult to shoot. shotguns are heavy recoiling, especially for female or younger shooters. semi auto carbines match the stopping power of a rifle round with the controllability of an intermediate rifle round (5.56)
Make the gun automatic then, even better for home defence because the spraying allows for even completely untrained people to sometimes land a lucky hit. You can't have both the "weapons are the great equalizer which is why we need them to defend ourselves" argument and the but untrained people need easier weapons to shoot with argument. Whith enough training, 9mm pistols are easy enough to use that women and children are able to defend themselves from any equally trained thread, no matter the physical attributes involved. If skill suddenly plays a role, the untrained homedefender will simply lose to the skilled home invader again and the gun used is completely irrelevant.
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Northern Ireland22207 Posts
On February 22 2018 01:58 Broetchenholer wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2018 01:41 ahswtini wrote:On February 22 2018 01:33 Broetchenholer wrote:On February 22 2018 00:09 Danglars wrote:On February 21 2018 23:37 Broetchenholer wrote:On February 21 2018 12:45 Danglars wrote:You know it's bad when you have to go to GQ to get an informed media article on guns:
1. Banning assault weapons would do almost nothing
After every high-profile shooting, Democrats like Hillary Clinton call for a ban on “assault weapons,” the military-style rifles that have been dubbed the weapon of choice for mass shooters.
There’s a problem with this popular liberal idea: banning these guns would not do much to save American lives. Only 3.6 percent of America’s gun murders are committed with any kind of rifle, according to FBI data. The majority of gun murders are committed with handguns. Even the Democratic staffers who wrote the now-expired 1994 federal assault weapon ban knew it was a largely symbolic policy.
There’s some evidence that banning high-capacity ammunition magazines might—over the very long term—reduce gun injuries. But a ban on the guns themselves “does nothing,” a former Obama administration official said last year. Though the White House endorsed a renewed ban after Sandy Hook, “we did the bare minimum,” the official said. “We would have pushed a lot harder if we had believed in it.”
The real effect of Democrats’ decades-long war on “assault weapons,” some advocates speculate, is that it’s simply made military-style guns more popular.
2. Owning 17 guns really isn’t that extreme
Just 3% of American adults own half the country’s guns, a new Harvard/Northeastern study estimated—and they own an average of 17 guns each.
To a non-gun owner, this might sound like a lot. But you have to think of guns as tools: a few different rifles for hunting different kinds of game, plus a shotgun, a handgun or two for self-protection, and some antique guns inherited from your grandfather. It adds up fast.
As one gun rights activist put it, “Why do you need more than one pair of shoes? The truth is, you don’t, but do you want more than one pair of shoes? If you’re going hiking, you don’t want to use that one pair of high heels.”
3. Only a tiny fraction of America’s guns are used in crimes
American civilians own between 265 million and 400 million guns. That’s at least one gun for every American adult. (There’s no official national count. Gun rights advocates are fiercely private about gun ownership and fear that if the government can track guns, it will be able to confiscate them.) Gun control advocates often note that America’s gun murder rate is 25 times higher than other high-income countries, and that this drives an overall murder rate than is 7 times higher than other rich countries.
But the vast majority of America’s gun owners—and their guns—aren’t involved in this violence. About 100,000 Americans are killed or violently injured with guns each year—a number that includes gun suicides. The total number of crimes involving guns is higher: as many as 500,000 a year, according to Justice Department estimates.
Roughly speaking, that means that fewer than 1% of American guns are used in recorded crime or violence each year. Most of America’s hundreds of millions of guns are sitting in gun safes, being used for target practice or hunting, and causing no harm at all.
4. Gun crime dropped even as Americans bought more firearms
After the school shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary School in 2012, pollsters asked if Americans thought gun crime was increasing or decreasing. 56% said gun crime had gone up over the past two decades. Only 12% knew the truth: gun murders had dropped by nearly 50% since the early 1990s. Over the same time period, Americans bought an estimated 70 million more guns.
This trend isn’t proof that more guns equal less crime—many factors drove a spike in gun violence in the early 1990s, and a drop afterwards. But it does show that the relationship between America’s high gun ownership rates and its high gun murder rates is more complex than a simple correlation.
GQ 1) Did you know that direct deaths of Nuclear Bombs in WW2 were only around 200k? That amounts to only about 1% of all losses ok WW2. Banning nuclear weapons therefore has no impact whatsoever. 2) Yeah, i'll give you that. A dedicated hunter might have quite a few rifles/shotguns. It get's ridiculous when someone has 10 pistols for "home protection" or a semi automatic long rifle against those - to quote a great pc game classic - really aggressive deer. 3. Did you know that the majority of all knives in America are not used in Crimes? Roughly speaking,fewer then 0,00001 percent of all knives are used in recorded crime or violence each year. True fact. 4. Violent crimes dropped statistically globally since the 1990 by 50 %. The USA is absolutely no outlier in this regard. Good job USA. How exactly are you allowed to call us out for using "wrong" statistics and emotional responses to the problem if this is what you refer to? Nobody believes banning semi automatic long rifles will stop gun violence. It will take away a toy that has no objective value for society but enables people to kill 50 people in a span of minutes. The second point is irrelevant. If your society treats hunting as a hobby like bowling, that's fine. It doesn't mean it has to stay that way though. You could pass legislation that limits the ability to hoard them. If your society decides it doesn't want "owning weapons" on a level of owning shoes then suddenly 17 again is a lot. Three and four are simply using statistics that suit the NRA agenda and say them with enough confidence so that the own people believe it. There is nothing else to it. The thread has now passed on though and some of the ideas here are good starting points. Banning all magazines with capacieties greater 10 is for example a good idea. The problem stays that you already have too many guns with high capacity magazines though. Needing reasons for something is fine as well, just treat it with a hint of computer game balance. You are only allowed to have x weapons of type y. Choose wisely. As your life progresses you can of course change your choice. Means, if you wanna buy a "hunting weapon", the clerk will tell you that you already own a double barrel shotgun and a remington. If you now want a third, you have to give back one of the other. And when you want a new pistol, bring back your old. You lost your pistol, okay, sir, please pay a fine that is higher then the purchase of a new one. You want to own a pumpgun? Sir, that is a military grade weapon, you don't need that much weapon for hunting or self defense. 1.) Maybe you would need to be an American to hear the familiar call to ban assault weapons in the wake of every school shooting. The comparison to nuclear weapons doesn’t make sense here. People think the deadliest mass shooting was with an AR-15, instead of the actual two pistols that were used. 3) Maybe your point is to ban knives in the hopes that criminals will get less of them. 4) You would think from media reports that the country is witnessing unprecedented levels of gun violence, caused by lax gun laws. This is untrue. The fact that you’re fighting this shows ignorance or perversity. It still remains that the loudest voices are the most uninformed ones on this topic. When you hear facts you don’t like, don’t be that guy that assumes the side they lend credence to invalidates the statistic. These are ground rules for the debates that everybody should know ... but certain Europeans and American leftists want to cover their eyes. You have got to hear both sides to actually claim to think. I’m not talking about hearing that the media says about the NRA amounts to hearing both sides. That’s foolishness. 1) No. BAnning semi automatic long rifles is a reasonable start because those weapons have the worst usefulness to threat ratio. It's like claiming that people should be allowed to attach spinning blades to their monster tracks because most deaths by a vehicle was in fact done by a Prius without spinning blades. The argument that semi automatic long rifles are not the problem because pistols are a worse problem is not an argument. Society has a history of allowing stuff that it shouldn't if it creates some kind of benefit to society. I don't agree on that, but one could say small firearms have value for american society because if everyone has one, everyone can defend itself and his/her property against everyone else. We accept this as a benefit. Pistols are the prius that can be used to cause death, but we accept that because it also grants us mobility. The AR-15 however is a solution to a problem that does not exist in civil society. It is a "fun" weapon and fun is usually not enough to counter the threat something has to society. 3) No, my point is that this statistic is fucking stupid. surprisingly, the percentage of guns used for violent gun crime is limited to the percentage of vieloent gun crime in your country, no matter how many guns you own. If you are saturated on guns, like you are, increasing that number times 2 means the number of weapons used for violence has just dropped magically by half. Even in the US the number of violent crimes is low enough to only amout to 1% of all guns, which seems really low, which is whiy it was said in the first place. 4) I never fought this. Start responding to what i say and not what youz want me to have said to fir your narrative. The murder rates of all OECD countries dropped massively over the last 3 decades. It's a global phenomenon probably caused by changes in demographics or economy or social structure common everywhere. The fact that the source you are quoting uses this fact to try and sell this as a reason why gun control cannot work and then you blame me and call me ignorant and perverse because i am fighting facts? WHAT THE FUCK?? You have voted for the guy that said America is a zombieapocalypse and onle he can bring law and order back. All i have ever read here on this forum is people complaining that gun rampages are not being addressed now and have not been addressed for years. That is something different then claiming the murder rate went up. That is what your president said, whom you defend whenever you have the chance. 1. semi-automatic rifles are probably the best weapon for home defence. pistols lack power but are also more difficult to shoot. shotguns are heavy recoiling, especially for female or younger shooters. semi auto carbines match the stopping power of a rifle round with the controllability of an intermediate rifle round (5.56) Make the gun automatic then, even better for home defence because the spraying allows for even completely untrained people to sometimes land a lucky hit. You can't have both the "weapons are the great equalizer which is why we need them to defend ourselves" argument and the but untrained people need easier weapons to shoot with argument. Whith enough training, 9mm pistols are easy enough to use that women and children are able to defend themselves from any equally trained thread, no matter the physical attributes involved. If skill suddenly plays a role, the untrained homedefender will simply lose to the skilled home invader again and the gun used is completely irrelevant.
the issue has nothing to do with training or lack of. ar-15s are simply easier to handle and are more powerful than handguns. according to your logic, special forces don't need rifles, because they have enough training to be effective with a 9mm pistol. of course skill makes a difference. the idea is that the home defender should have as much advantage over the invader. it's not a fair fight and shouldn't be a fair fight.
your facetious comment about making the gun automatic is pretty see-through, but i'll bite. one advantage of a rifle is it is inherently more accurate. which means fewer missed shots. which means less risk of collateral damage. making a gun automatic defeats that entire purpose. nobody whose life depends on it will choose automatic fire.
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sarcasm not withstanding why is it that considering SHOOTING a home invader a bad thing, a bad thing? is it not ok to think home invasion is not punishable by death?
i suppose this could be a conversation for a different thread but this baffles me every time it is glossed over.
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Northern Ireland22207 Posts
On February 22 2018 02:04 brian wrote:
sarcasm not withstanding why is it that considering SHOOTING a home invader a bad thing, a bad thing? is it not ok to think home invasion is not punishable by death?
i suppose this could be a conversation for a different thread but this baffles me every time it is glossed over.
i don't know, but when i brought up the fact that a poster seemed to be upset that a child could shoot dead a home invader, someone else decided to make it a moral equivalency to a child shooting a sibling
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Search his posts in this tread... I wouldn't be surprised if aswtini was pro landmine homedefense.
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On February 22 2018 02:05 ahswtini wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2018 02:04 brian wrote:
sarcasm not withstanding why is it that considering SHOOTING a home invader a bad thing, a bad thing? is it not ok to think home invasion is not punishable by death?
i suppose this could be a conversation for a different thread but this baffles me every time it is glossed over. i don't know, but when i brought up the fact that a poster seemed to be upset that a child could shoot dead a home invader, someone else decided to make it a moral equivalency to a child shooting a sibling
is there not reason to be upset, inept comparison aside? is the ultimate result of every act of self defense a dead body?
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If you are a responsible gun owner, the goal is to make the home invader leave or surrender. In my state you can’t just unload on someone without warning unless a reasonable belief that doing so would lead to death or great bodily harm.
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EPT
