If you're seeing this topic then another mass shooting hap…

On February 16 2018 12:37 thePunGun wrote:
I'm so fuckin tired of this endless bullshit cycle repeating itself, that's why I have no respect for politcians they're just a bunch of spinless cowards....

edit:
@superstartran:
Must be nice to be dazzled by your own little bullshit bubble, careful don't let reality get too close or it might just pop one day

On February 16 2018 12:42 superstartran wrote:





Yeah man, it's not like there's dozens of quotes from CDC leadership about how they tried to push their own agenda before even doing their own research, or the fact that they used a completely faulty study that was thoroughly debunked by pretty much the entire scientific community.


That amendment didn't simply come out of nowhere; it was created because the liberal left was pushing an agenda that all firearms should be banned. So it's not like the NRA's fears aren't completely unfounded, although I'd say that most of the NRA leadership is being far too hardline (and they are and will suffer for it down the line).

On February 16 2018 12:39 superstartran wrote:




Most of the NRA leaders are hardliners; the vast majority of NRA members who are not in leadership roles however do not oppose things like expanded background checks. It's funny because the person who introduced the expanded background check legislation was actually a moderate NRA member, and the reason why it was defeated was really because some Democrats flipped in the more conservative states (fearing that they would not be elected again), otherwise it would have been passed already.

On February 16 2018 12:47 Plansix wrote:

Thoee quotes are from 20 years ago. They are no longer relevant to modern politics.

On February 16 2018 12:49 Plansix wrote:

So what you are saying is that a good law wasn’t passed because politicians feared the gun lobby?

On February 16 2018 12:55 superstartran wrote:




They are relevant as evidenced to the fact that the vast majority of the current left can't even understand why that amendment was created in the first place. You guys are only further proving the NRA leaderships point that you don't know what you're talking about when it comes to firearm statistics/firearm safety/firearm laws because you have thus far only argued by trying to appeal to emotion or shaming the opposing side. The media cites 18 school shootings already as though there were 18 mass shootings on the scale of Florida, people saying the CDC is banned from studying firearm related violence (hint : they are not), people saying that the entire NRA base (which is an estimated 5 million people) are a bunch of diehards that don't care about gun control despite the NRA's history from the early 1900s all the way to the 1980s as being of the most prominent organizations that pushed for gun control.


You try to paint the other side as a bunch of bad guys that supports unregulated gun acccess so that bad guys can go out there and kill innocent people; that's a load of horse shit and you know it. You guys need to stop demonizing the other side, and have actual dialogue, otherwise you will end up with nothing just like every single other incident before this. Want to know why the NRA leadership takes a hardline stance? It's because of bullshit claims and exaggerations by the left that is completely unsubstantiated.

On February 16 2018 12:47 Plansix wrote:

Thoee quotes are from 20 years ago. They are no longer relevant to modern politics. The law that is in place has effective killed all gun violence research by the government for 20 years.

On February 16 2018 12:59 superstartran wrote:




No, the law did not kill government research on gun violence; it only prevents the CDC for advocating for gun control. This is exactly the bullshit that is being spewed that pisses off legitimate law abiding firearm owners and pushes them to support the NRA, despite the fact that many gun owners don't support the NRA leadership's hardline stance in regards to gun control laws.


The CDC is allowed to study gun violence all they want; no one is going to stop them. The point is that the last two times the CDC did studies in 2003 and 2013, their evidence was inconclusive at best.

On February 16 2018 13:11 Plansix wrote:

The law prohibits conclusions about gun violence.

On February 16 2018 13:16 superstartran wrote:



The law prohibits the promotion of gun control, not conclusions about gun violence. Again, you're only proving the NRA leadership right, which is exactly how you end up in a situation where there's no real dialogue or action taken despite 17 innocent people dying.

On February 16 2018 12:59 Plansix wrote:

I didn’t paint the other side as bad or all gun owner. You keep framing this argument as me demonizing gun owners. I don’t.

I demonized the NRA and gun manufacturers that peddle this proganda that the democrats are going to take away guns. Because it makes a fuck ton of money. And they have folks like you so convinced that the Left is going to take way your guns that you bring up 20 year old quotes that have nothing to do with modern politics like some talismanic ward against discussions of gun safety. Look at these 20 year old statements, this is the left on guns, now and forever. They have conviced the CDC can never be trust forever.

And the result is today. 20 years of the NRA having congress by the balls, killing every single law. From background checks to bump stocks. Nothing but gun sales and school shootings.

I’m sure will will be doing this again soon, with another group of dead students and not even a debate in congress.

On February 16 2018 13:22 Plansix wrote:

I work for law firm and no way is that law clear. What defines “Promote” is subjective and anyone writing that report avoided language that could be construed as supporting gun control in any way. And we know this because CDC employees have said just that. It’s not clear, so they don’t go near gun research.

Edit: don’t come in here saying you want a real dialoge when’ve you waved around the exact same 20 year old quote when someone complained about the CDC rule.

On February 16 2018 13:25 superstartran wrote:



1) The fact that you have not actually produced any facts or studies to support your position is already demonstrating why so many gun owners support the NRA. You've yet to convince anyone why the right should even listen to you.

2) The NRA doesn't actually outspend alot of powerful lobby groups such as the automobile industry, tech giants, wallstreet, etc.; it's influence actually far exceeds how much money it actually spends. Which should probably tell you that the NRA's power and influence goes far beyond how much money it spends.

3) Universal Background checks could have been passed if the same Democrats who pushed for universal background checks actually manned up and passed the bill instead of backing out at the last second. A good chunk of NRA backed republicans actually supported the universal background check bill; it was the other side who called for the universal background check and pussied out at the last minute.


And gun manufacturers are big industry, but they are not bigger than other major industry players like the tech giants, automobile industry, wall street, etc. You are making some seriously laughable claims here. The reason why the NRA remains significantly powerful in capital hill is because they represent a very large segment of the population that feels very strongly on an issue. Said people feel like they get misrepresented alot, and that they are talked down to by people who literally have no fucking clue about gun control, gun safety, or guns in general.

On February 16 2018 13:25 superstartran wrote:
1) The fact that you have not actually produced any facts or studies to support your position is already demonstrating why so many gun owners support the NRA. You've yet to convince anyone why the right should even listen to you.

2) The NRA doesn't actually outspend alot of powerful lobby groups such as the automobile industry, tech giants, wallstreet, etc.; it's influence actually far exceeds how much money it actually spends. Which should probably tell you that the NRA's power and influence goes far beyond how much money it spends.

On February 16 2018 13:53 Plansix wrote:

Ok first of all: The NRA spends heavily on one aspect of politics, primaries.

https://www.npr.org/2017/10/17/558202994/how-the-nra-uses-its-political-clout-an-early-lesson-in-oklahoma

That is where they make their stamp on DC. Not the general elections, but primaries where they can target the hard core voting base of a specific party.

https://www.npr.org/2017/10/10/556578593/the-nra-wasnt-always-against-gun-restrictions

Second of all, the NRA has become more radical over time. They used to not be against gun control, but were taken over by hard liners. Now they are a political organization through and through. They hand out report cards on politicians, just like FNMA used to send politicians threatening to regulate them further a list of people who had mortgages with them. And like FNMA of old, they don't back specific senators or reps, just make sure that the ones they don't want lose in a primary. And if they can't kill a bill with Republicans, they go after democrats. That is why the Democrats backed down on that bill.

And this influence is why no gun laws get brought to the floor or debated. This is why the ATF is still prohibited from using computers to track illegal guns in 2018. This is why when the vast majority of Americans support background checks and reasonable gun laws, no laws get passed. Because a small, but powerful minority of gun owners hold sway over the primaries in the US. 3% of Americans own 50% of the guns in this country.

https://www.npr.org/2016/09/20/494765559/nearly-half-of-guns-in-u-s-owned-by-3-percent-of-population-study-finds

(you will note that the researcher says gun owners were nervous that the study was political motivated to take away their guns, it is a common theme in these studies)

And as someone who grew up in rural America, guns and gun owners that all were members of the NRA, you all get it as good as you give it. You think the left is mean, so are gun owners on the right. I lived around them for 25 years and they all say the same thing about out of touch liberals that don't understand guns, blah blah blah. This isn't about hurt feelings.

So if we are going to talk about the NRA, lets talk about the real NRA, not the PR version that they have created. The one that dumped 30 million into the last election and collects well over 50% of its funding from the people who make and sell guns.

On February 16 2018 13:55 Aquanim wrote:

If you are in favour of "sensible gun control laws", in your words, why do you need to listen to Plansix? Why don't you just advocate for those laws?


I don't see how the fact that other influential lobby groups exist is relevant to the current discussion.

On February 16 2018 14:00 superstartran wrote:




The NRA doesn't actually donate that much money when you compare them to much larger industries; in fact their influence in both primaries and general elections predominantly comes from the fact that they are able to motivate their political base to go out and vote, something the other side has been unable to do so.


Also, the NRA's pac funding specifically comes from individuals.


http://money.cnn.com/news/cnnmoney-investigates/nra-funding-donors/index.html



As I said, the NRA is able to get large swaths of people to vote in ways they want them to vote; getting that many people to vote (over 5 million members) is a much bigger deal than spending 30 million dollars which is a drop in the hat for much larger industries such as the Pharmaceutical industry.

On February 16 2018 14:08 Plansix wrote:

That is irrelevant to the discussion at hand. They are a single issue group and there issue is making sure gun laws don't get passed. We are talking about gun laws. And the NRA does not give a shit want else that politician does so long as they don't pass any gun laws, which is evident because they donated 23 million to Trump alone the last election.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/nra-sticking-trump-breaks-own-record-campaign-spending-n665056

And again, in that election the NRA doubled down on the narrative that a democratic victory would lead to guns being taken away. At no point was that ever an issue in the 2016 election and no candidate advocated for it. Because for the NRA, facts don't matter. There is nothing the democrats can say to convince the NRA or its supporters that they won't pass laws to take away peoples guns. Nothing.

So you are right, the NRA's power comes form its voters. And it has spent the last 20 years scaring the shit out of them to boost gun sales and make sure no gun safety laws get passed. Including 2016 when they just lied to people about their guns being taken away by Clinton. Just like they did with Obama in 2008, who also said he wasn't going to take away peoples guns.

On February 16 2018 14:19 superstartran wrote:




Right, and the reason why NRA leadership has been able to do so is because the other side basically demonizes anyone that supports 2nd amendment rights, but maybe flexible on issues such as what types of firearms, high capacity magazines, etc.


Which is my entire point. You, along with tons of other posters in this thread basically demonize anyone who supports firearm rights as terrible people. Not only that, you severely misrepresent evidence to fit your own narrative an agenda, without even listening to the other side, or even understanding very recent history (history as recent as 20 years ago, which is not that long ago). And then you wonder why the NRA has such a strong chokehold on so many congressional members; well, it's because you pissed off so many legitimate gun owners. The NRA's strength lies in its voters, not in how much money it spends which is essentially nothing compared to other larger entities. You want change? You have to convince a large section of those voters to cross over the line. It starts with you, and various other people on the left from not being a bunch of assholes to gun owners in the first place.

On February 16 2018 12:35 superstartran wrote:




Actual language of the bill


"none of the funds made available for injury prevention and control at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) may be used to advocate or promote gun control."



It does not say that the CDC cannot study firearm related violence. We've already gone over why this amendment was created in the first place.

On February 16 2018 11:35 superstartran wrote:You can basically read about the history from a conservative/Republican viewpoint here


https://drgo.us/history-of-gun-control/］