|
Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action. |
On December 23 2012 13:01 Xenocryst wrote:
It stuns me that people in America think that we need guns to protect us from the government... If it ever came push to shove there's no way in hell the populace could compete with the might of the US military. And just for the record do you really think that people should be able to carry a device that can kill someone with a push of a button? I don't think any civilian should be able to hold that power.
Let me notify you that if this senario ever happens, the U.S. Military would split in half, one half with the citizens and the other with the government. You cant forget that the U.S. Military have families back home that they will be willing to defend under all cost who it is against. I have done 2 tours and let me tell you, if my family back home was under threat from my own government, I am beside my family at all cost.
I think our problem is that people forgot what it is like to be an American, our country is devided by political parties and we all forget that we are on the same side, if the shit that is happening today happand 70 years ago, the citizens would have not allowed it to go this far.
Let me ask you guys some questions.
How do you think we gained independance from Britian? Was not through a fist fight.
Why has the U.S. never been invaded before EVER by another countries infantry? Japan was going to invade us, but their general attended Harvard here in the U.S. and knew that it could not be done, he stated "It can not be done, if we invade the U.S. there will be a rifle behind every blade of grass".
With the U.S. allowing its citizens to be armed, it has kept our country invasion free, allowed us to defend ourselves to violence, and not to mention our country was formed on the ability to obtain weapons and stay armed. The U.S. would not be here today if it was not due to Citizens being armed, just open a history book and start reading.
P.S. Sorry if I broke any forum rules, have been a follower of TL for many years now, just never posted a thing in my life. This topic spited me to post.
|
On December 24 2012 00:40 dronesss wrote:
Let me ask you guys some questions.
How do you think we gained independance from Britian? Was not through a fist fight.
Why has the U.S. never been invaded before EVER by another countries infantry? Japan was going to invade us, but their general attended Harvard here in the U.S. and knew that it could not be done, he stated "It can not be done, if we invade the U.S. there will be a rifle behind every blade of grass".
Well, there are multiple reasons for that that are not directly linked to your population having guns. The main factors being that you don't have a lot of land border to anything, and you have a big-ass military.
|
On February 20 2012 03:17 Jonoman92 wrote:
Plus, as some have mentioned, even if laws were passed to ban firearms. That would only serve to make the law-abiding citizens unarmed, while those who wanted guns could still get/keep them.
Precisely. I'm a hardcore liberal, about as hardcore as you could ever hope to find, yet on this issue and this very issue ALONE I often find myself on the side of those I generally debate against, disagree with, and vote against. What an odd world. I voted for Obama twice, and support him wholeheartedly with the exception of his stance on gun control, yet I would never vote Republican. What to do? ^^
|
On December 24 2012 00:52 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 00:40 dronesss wrote:
Let me ask you guys some questions.
How do you think we gained independance from Britian? Was not through a fist fight.
Why has the U.S. never been invaded before EVER by another countries infantry? Japan was going to invade us, but their general attended Harvard here in the U.S. and knew that it could not be done, he stated "It can not be done, if we invade the U.S. there will be a rifle behind every blade of grass".
Well, there are multiple reasons for that that are not directly linked to your population having guns. The main factors being that you don't have a lot of land border to anything, and you have a big-ass military.
Are you refering to the statement i made about us never being invaded? It was only because the citizens were armed, nothing else. At the time Japan could handle our military, but they couldent handle both military and citizens.
|
On December 24 2012 00:03 AmericanNightmare wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2012 13:01 Xenocryst wrote:
It stuns me that people in America think that we need guns to protect us from the government... If it ever came push to shove there's no way in hell the populace could compete with the might of the US military. I'm stunned so many people blindly trust the government with all the concrete evidence out there that shows that it doesn't care about you.. Ok.. so push came to shove.. it's like I've just been robbed/mugged by an armed criminal.. I'm standing there in my boxers with no hope of competing against this armed person.. So I should just surrender everything.. I should tell him my pin numbers and account numbers.. possibly give him my social.. the best way to get into my house and where he can find the best valuables.. maybe I should tell him how my wife like it so he can have his way with her too.. But.. according to you.. Since I stand a snowballs chance, I should just give in and allow the government to mistreat me whichever way they want.. These rich people in the government laugh at us because of how stupid the majority of you are.. You sheeple disgust me more than any other thing in the world.. other than creeps who take advantage of small children, but you're honestly are not far behind..
First of all-
The government does care about us because ultimately we are the ones who decide whether or not they get elected. That's a pretty important thing to remember. If kids in our schools are dying because of psychopath people having semi-automatic weaponry, and the government does nothing about it, than that politician probably isn't getting reelected. So maybe they don't necessarily care for the right reasons, or maybe they don't care as much as they should, but they do care.
Next-
That situation you described is a perfect example of what someone said earlier in this thread, about people who are strongly pro-gun tending to have this idea that something bad will happen to them and with a gun they could stop it. Well, no. It's not that simple. Say this situation you're describing does happen. This (armed, you said?) robber sees you pull out a gun on him, what the hell do you think he's going to do? Back off? He just tried to rob you, so he knows there's a good chance you might shoot him, so you think he's gonna wait for you to shoot first? No, he's gonna shoot you, because for him it becomes a life or death situation at that point. So your credit cards and such being robbed turned into a gunfight. Instead of putting your money at risk, you put your life at risk. Congrats.
Also the fact that those who are trying to protect innocent people(including children) from guns disgust you almost as much as pedophiles is....pretty fucked up. And your ad hominem's were real creative too.
|
On December 24 2012 00:59 dronesss wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 00:52 Simberto wrote:On December 24 2012 00:40 dronesss wrote:
Let me ask you guys some questions.
How do you think we gained independance from Britian? Was not through a fist fight.
Why has the U.S. never been invaded before EVER by another countries infantry? Japan was going to invade us, but their general attended Harvard here in the U.S. and knew that it could not be done, he stated "It can not be done, if we invade the U.S. there will be a rifle behind every blade of grass".
Well, there are multiple reasons for that that are not directly linked to your population having guns. The main factors being that you don't have a lot of land border to anything, and you have a big-ass military. Are you refering to the statement i made about us never being invaded? It was only because the citizens were armed, nothing else. At the time Japan could handle our military, but they couldent handle both military and citizens.
Nobody ever tried to invade United States because nobody ever intended to... European states have had a lot do deal with on their own, and Japan just wanted to secure an Empire in Pacific, which explains why they fought the United States (and in order to stop the help US were providing to China), but they never, ever, intended to invade the US. Stop saying it's because citizens carry guns, that's completely wrong.
|
On December 24 2012 00:40 dronesss wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2012 13:01 Xenocryst wrote:
It stuns me that people in America think that we need guns to protect us from the government... If it ever came push to shove there's no way in hell the populace could compete with the might of the US military. And just for the record do you really think that people should be able to carry a device that can kill someone with a push of a button? I don't think any civilian should be able to hold that power. Let me notify you that if this senario ever happens, the U.S. Military would split in half, one half with the citizens and the other with the government. You cant forget that the U.S. Military have families back home that they will be willing to defend under all cost who it is against. I have done 2 tours and let me tell you, if my family back home was under threat from my own government, I am beside my family at all cost. I think our problem is that people forgot what it is like to be an American, our country is devided by political parties and we all forget that we are on the same side, if the shit that is happening today happand 70 years ago, the citizens would have not allowed it to go this far. Let me ask you guys some questions. How do you think we gained independance from Britian? Was not through a fist fight. Why has the U.S. never been invaded before EVER by another countries infantry? Japan was going to invade us, but their general attended Harvard here in the U.S. and knew that it could not be done, he stated "It can not be done, if we invade the U.S. there will be a rifle behind every blade of grass". With the U.S. allowing its citizens to be armed, it has kept our country invasion free, allowed us to defend ourselves to violence, and not to mention our country was formed on the ability to obtain weapons and stay armed. The U.S. would not be here today if it was not due to Citizens being armed, just open a history book and start reading. P.S. Sorry if I broke any forum rules, have been a follower of TL for many years now, just never posted a thing in my life. This topic spited me to post.
Someone forgot Mexico and the fact that British/Canadians had fun burning your cities 30 years after your Independence.
|
On December 24 2012 01:25 Kihshra wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 00:59 dronesss wrote:On December 24 2012 00:52 Simberto wrote:On December 24 2012 00:40 dronesss wrote:
Let me ask you guys some questions.
How do you think we gained independance from Britian? Was not through a fist fight.
Why has the U.S. never been invaded before EVER by another countries infantry? Japan was going to invade us, but their general attended Harvard here in the U.S. and knew that it could not be done, he stated "It can not be done, if we invade the U.S. there will be a rifle behind every blade of grass".
Well, there are multiple reasons for that that are not directly linked to your population having guns. The main factors being that you don't have a lot of land border to anything, and you have a big-ass military. Are you refering to the statement i made about us never being invaded? It was only because the citizens were armed, nothing else. At the time Japan could handle our military, but they couldent handle both military and citizens. Nobody ever tried to invade United States because nobody ever intended to... European states have had a lot do deal with on their own, and Japan just wanted to secure an Empire in Pacific, which explains why they fought the United States (and in order to stop the help US were providing to China), but they never, ever, intended to invade the US. Stop saying it's because citizens carry guns, that's completely wrong.
Japan did have the intent to invade the U.S. at one point, but never tried...due to the fact U.S. allowed their citizens to carry weapons......if you question it.....I am pretty sure google has the answer.
|
On December 24 2012 00:59 dronesss wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 00:52 Simberto wrote:On December 24 2012 00:40 dronesss wrote:
Let me ask you guys some questions.
How do you think we gained independance from Britian? Was not through a fist fight.
Why has the U.S. never been invaded before EVER by another countries infantry? Japan was going to invade us, but their general attended Harvard here in the U.S. and knew that it could not be done, he stated "It can not be done, if we invade the U.S. there will be a rifle behind every blade of grass".
Well, there are multiple reasons for that that are not directly linked to your population having guns. The main factors being that you don't have a lot of land border to anything, and you have a big-ass military. Are you refering to the statement i made about us never being invaded? It was only because the citizens were armed, nothing else. At the time Japan could handle our military, but they couldent handle both military and citizens.
Yeah I'm pretty sure that's probably bullshit. I think you need to back that outrageous claim up with some sources.
|
On December 24 2012 01:36 mcc wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 00:40 dronesss wrote:On December 23 2012 13:01 Xenocryst wrote:
It stuns me that people in America think that we need guns to protect us from the government... If it ever came push to shove there's no way in hell the populace could compete with the might of the US military. And just for the record do you really think that people should be able to carry a device that can kill someone with a push of a button? I don't think any civilian should be able to hold that power. Let me notify you that if this senario ever happens, the U.S. Military would split in half, one half with the citizens and the other with the government. You cant forget that the U.S. Military have families back home that they will be willing to defend under all cost who it is against. I have done 2 tours and let me tell you, if my family back home was under threat from my own government, I am beside my family at all cost. I think our problem is that people forgot what it is like to be an American, our country is devided by political parties and we all forget that we are on the same side, if the shit that is happening today happand 70 years ago, the citizens would have not allowed it to go this far. Let me ask you guys some questions. How do you think we gained independance from Britian? Was not through a fist fight. Why has the U.S. never been invaded before EVER by another countries infantry? Japan was going to invade us, but their general attended Harvard here in the U.S. and knew that it could not be done, he stated "It can not be done, if we invade the U.S. there will be a rifle behind every blade of grass". With the U.S. allowing its citizens to be armed, it has kept our country invasion free, allowed us to defend ourselves to violence, and not to mention our country was formed on the ability to obtain weapons and stay armed. The U.S. would not be here today if it was not due to Citizens being armed, just open a history book and start reading. P.S. Sorry if I broke any forum rules, have been a follower of TL for many years now, just never posted a thing in my life. This topic spited me to post. Someone forgot Mexico and the fact that British/Canadians had fun burning your cities 30 years after your Independence.
I did not forget, simply did not mention it.
But to add on to that, yes it did continue...and we continued to shoot.....
Picture what the U.S. would be like today if we did not have weapons to fend off mexico or britian, we would not be U.S.....simple logic
|
On December 24 2012 01:58 BallinWitStalin wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 00:59 dronesss wrote:On December 24 2012 00:52 Simberto wrote:On December 24 2012 00:40 dronesss wrote:
Let me ask you guys some questions.
How do you think we gained independance from Britian? Was not through a fist fight.
Why has the U.S. never been invaded before EVER by another countries infantry? Japan was going to invade us, but their general attended Harvard here in the U.S. and knew that it could not be done, he stated "It can not be done, if we invade the U.S. there will be a rifle behind every blade of grass".
Well, there are multiple reasons for that that are not directly linked to your population having guns. The main factors being that you don't have a lot of land border to anything, and you have a big-ass military. Are you refering to the statement i made about us never being invaded? It was only because the citizens were armed, nothing else. At the time Japan could handle our military, but they couldent handle both military and citizens. Yeah I'm pretty sure that's probably bullshit. I think you need to back that outrageous claim up with some sources.
http://www.warhistoryfans.com/reason-for-japan-not-invading-continental-us-152362.html
www.history.army.mil/books/70-7_04.htm
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Isoroku_Yamamoto
This should be enough, there are probably 30 more links in google......and this is not a claim it is a fact..
|
On December 24 2012 01:05 Josealtron wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 00:03 AmericanNightmare wrote:On December 23 2012 13:01 Xenocryst wrote:
It stuns me that people in America think that we need guns to protect us from the government... If it ever came push to shove there's no way in hell the populace could compete with the might of the US military. I'm stunned so many people blindly trust the government with all the concrete evidence out there that shows that it doesn't care about you.. Ok.. so push came to shove.. it's like I've just been robbed/mugged by an armed criminal.. I'm standing there in my boxers with no hope of competing against this armed person.. So I should just surrender everything.. I should tell him my pin numbers and account numbers.. possibly give him my social.. the best way to get into my house and where he can find the best valuables.. maybe I should tell him how my wife like it so he can have his way with her too.. But.. according to you.. Since I stand a snowballs chance, I should just give in and allow the government to mistreat me whichever way they want.. These rich people in the government laugh at us because of how stupid the majority of you are.. You sheeple disgust me more than any other thing in the world.. other than creeps who take advantage of small children, but you're honestly are not far behind.. First of all- The government does care about us because ultimately we are the ones who decide whether or not they get elected. That's a pretty important thing to remember. If kids in our schools are dying because of psychopath people having semi-automatic weaponry, and the government does nothing about it, than that politician probably isn't getting reelected. So maybe they don't necessarily care for the right reasons, or maybe they don't care as much as they should, but they do care. Next- That situation you described is a perfect example of what someone said earlier in this thread, about people who are strongly pro-gun tending to have this idea that something bad will happen to them and with a gun they could stop it. Well, no. It's not that simple. Say this situation you're describing does happen. This (armed, you said?) robber sees you pull out a gun on him, what the hell do you think he's going to do? Back off? He just tried to rob you, so he knows there's a good chance you might shoot him, so you think he's gonna wait for you to shoot first? No, he's gonna shoot you, because for him it becomes a life or death situation at that point. So your credit cards and such being robbed turned into a gunfight. Instead of putting your money at risk, you put your life at risk. Congrats. Also the fact that those who are trying to protect innocent people(including children) from guns disgust you almost as much as pedophiles is....pretty fucked up. And your ad hominem's were real creative too.
Some people actually have guts and understand every action is a determining factor on the future of the world. They couldn't bear to give in to something that's against what they believe in when they have the power to stop it. That's probably a good thing.
|
On December 24 2012 00:59 dronesss wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 00:52 Simberto wrote:On December 24 2012 00:40 dronesss wrote:
Let me ask you guys some questions.
How do you think we gained independance from Britian? Was not through a fist fight.
Why has the U.S. never been invaded before EVER by another countries infantry? Japan was going to invade us, but their general attended Harvard here in the U.S. and knew that it could not be done, he stated "It can not be done, if we invade the U.S. there will be a rifle behind every blade of grass".
Well, there are multiple reasons for that that are not directly linked to your population having guns. The main factors being that you don't have a lot of land border to anything, and you have a big-ass military. Are you refering to the statement i made about us never being invaded? It was only because the citizens were armed, nothing else. At the time Japan could handle our military, but they couldent handle both military and citizens.
Someone needs to read their history books again. No, Japan never had any power or plans to attack mainland USA, they only wanted to control the pacific ocean and the islands there. Not because civilians, but because US ground power by tanks and other military vechicles.
Even one of your sources in your other post says that this is not true.
|
On December 24 2012 02:12 Sea_Food wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 00:59 dronesss wrote:On December 24 2012 00:52 Simberto wrote:On December 24 2012 00:40 dronesss wrote:
Let me ask you guys some questions.
How do you think we gained independance from Britian? Was not through a fist fight.
Why has the U.S. never been invaded before EVER by another countries infantry? Japan was going to invade us, but their general attended Harvard here in the U.S. and knew that it could not be done, he stated "It can not be done, if we invade the U.S. there will be a rifle behind every blade of grass".
Well, there are multiple reasons for that that are not directly linked to your population having guns. The main factors being that you don't have a lot of land border to anything, and you have a big-ass military. Are you refering to the statement i made about us never being invaded? It was only because the citizens were armed, nothing else. At the time Japan could handle our military, but they couldent handle both military and citizens. Someone needs to read their history books again. No, Japan never had any power or plans to attack mainland USA, they only wanted to control the pacific ocean and the islands there. Not because civilians, but because US ground power by tanks and other military vechicles.
What are our schools teaching, please use google....its a nifty tool. And read my post above.
Japan did have the IDEA to invade the US, but did not due to the reasons I stated above. The Idea was thrown out of the window.
|
The biggest problem in the US is how you glamorise it, always talking about the constitution and making it out as though guns are necessary for safety. And for some reason a simple gun isn't enough for self defense, you need to be legally allowed to own fully automatic rifles etc. Of the frequent gun-massacres that happen in schools there, how many have been stopped by other people with firearms? Of those I've heard of they almost always end when the gunman decides he wants it to. Hopefully there comes a time when you realise this emphasis on guns is perverse. Guns are for killing, nothing else. There's no reason for them to be legal beyond hunting.
And generally speaking the idea of using a gun for self defense is just... If somebody pulls a gun on you, you're not going to have chance to pull your own gun. If they have a knife it's a different matter, but justifying gun ownership as a response to knife crime or having your house robbed just doesn't cut it, because it brings guns into the equation which just makes knife crime far less attractive than gun crime in the mind of the criminal, because then he's not going to be outdone.
|
On December 24 2012 02:11 dronesss wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 01:58 BallinWitStalin wrote:On December 24 2012 00:59 dronesss wrote:On December 24 2012 00:52 Simberto wrote:On December 24 2012 00:40 dronesss wrote:
Let me ask you guys some questions.
How do you think we gained independance from Britian? Was not through a fist fight.
Why has the U.S. never been invaded before EVER by another countries infantry? Japan was going to invade us, but their general attended Harvard here in the U.S. and knew that it could not be done, he stated "It can not be done, if we invade the U.S. there will be a rifle behind every blade of grass".
Well, there are multiple reasons for that that are not directly linked to your population having guns. The main factors being that you don't have a lot of land border to anything, and you have a big-ass military. Are you refering to the statement i made about us never being invaded? It was only because the citizens were armed, nothing else. At the time Japan could handle our military, but they couldent handle both military and citizens. Yeah I'm pretty sure that's probably bullshit. I think you need to back that outrageous claim up with some sources. http://www.warhistoryfans.com/reason-for-japan-not-invading-continental-us-152362.htmlwww.history.army.mil/books/70-7_04.htmhttp://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Isoroku_YamamotoThis should be enough, there are probably 30 more links in google......and this is not a claim it is a fact..
You should read your own links. The wiki quote you are referencing "You cannot invade the mainland United States. There would be a rifle behind every blade of grass." is under the header of 'Misattributed'. False. Not real.
|
On December 24 2012 02:15 bardtown wrote:
The biggest problem in the US is how you glamorise it, always talking about the constitution and making it out as though guns are necessary for safety. And for some reason a simple gun isn't enough for self defense, you need to be legally allowed to own fully automatic rifles etc. Of the frequent gun-massacres that happen in schools there, how many have been stopped by other people with firearms? Of those I've heard of they almost always end when the gunman decides he wants it to. Hopefully there comes a time when you realise this emphasis on guns is perverse. Guns are for killing, nothing else. There's no reason for them to be legal beyond hunting.
And generally speaking the idea of using a gun for self defense is just... If somebody pulls a gun on you, you're not going to have chance to pull your own gun. If they have a knife it's a different matter, but justifying gun ownership as a response to knife crime or having your house robbed just doesn't cut it, because it brings guns into the equation which just makes knife crime far less attractive than gun crime in the mind of the criminal, because then he's not going to be outdone.
I am not saying we should own 30 rifles, but I believe we should atleast own a revolver or small hand gun....maybe 1 rifle but I am not for us being 100% gunless.
|
You are definitely going to be better able to defend yourself against someone with a gun if you have a gun then if you do not. There is simply no defense to being attacked by an individual with a gun aside from having a gun yourself (perhaps fleeing or hiding). While I'm sure there are situations where you cannot draw or get to your gun (especially if their are laws that restrict guns to being locked up in a safe!) there will be countless situations where you can arm yourself before the assailant can point his gun at you. Like when they are breaking into your house, for example.
What it comes down to is this : if you want to be defenseless, weak and and a victim, then by all means disarm yourself. But don't you dare try to disarm me so that I can become defenseless, weak and a victim like you. That's not for me. I have myself to defend, and some day I will have a wife and children to defend, and I want to be able to stop anyone from harming them. And that means having a gun. I don't trust in the goodness of society. I don't trust that they are going to be okay, or that I am going to be okay. I trust in my ability to defend myself against someone else, aided by modern technology and weaponry. Guns.
|
On December 24 2012 02:20 TerribleNoobling wrote:
You are definitely going to be better able to defend yourself against someone with a gun if you have a gun then if you do not. There is simply no defense to being attacked by an individual with a gun aside from having a gun yourself (perhaps fleeing or hiding). While I'm sure there are situations where you cannot draw or get to your gun (especially if their are laws that restrict guns to being locked up in a safe!) there will be countless situations where you can arm yourself before the assailant can point his gun at you. Like when they are breaking into your house, for example.
What it comes down to is this : if you want to be defenseless, weak and and a victim, then by all means disarm yourself. But don't you dare try to disarm me so that I can become defenseless, weak and a victim like you. That's not for me. I have myself to defend, and some day I will have a wife and children to defend, and I want to be able to stop anyone from harming them. And that means having a gun. I don't trust in the goodness of society. I don't trust that they are going to be okay, or that I am going to be okay. I trust in my ability to defend myself against someone else, aided by modern technology and weaponry. Guns.
Spoken like a champ.
|
On December 24 2012 02:20 TerribleNoobling wrote:
You are definitely going to be better able to defend yourself against someone with a gun if you have a gun then if you do not. There is simply no defense to being attacked by an individual with a gun aside from having a gun yourself (perhaps fleeing or hiding). While I'm sure there are situations where you cannot draw or get to your gun (especially if their are laws that restrict guns to being locked up in a safe!) there will be countless situations where you can arm yourself before the assailant can point his gun at you. Like when they are breaking into your house, for example.
What it comes down to is this : if you want to be defenseless, weak and and a victim, then by all means disarm yourself. But don't you dare try to disarm me so that I can become defenseless, weak and a victim like you. That's not for me. I have myself to defend, and some day I will have a wife and children to defend, and I want to be able to stop anyone from harming them. And that means having a gun. I don't trust in the goodness of society. I don't trust that they are going to be okay, or that I am going to be okay. I trust in my ability to defend myself against someone else, aided by modern technology and weaponry. Guns.
What I'm reading is that you need a gun to defend yourself, and yet those of us who would rather face a gun without one are weak. That's backwards. You're weak.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
