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On December 23 2012 06:23 TerribleNoobling wrote:
Every state is evil. Consider the act of taxation. How many times does the act of taxing someone occur? In my nation - Canada, some 40 million people - there must be at least (and this is a conservative estimate) 200,000,000 acts of taxing a day. When you consider sales tax, income tax, etc. Each of these acts is an act of robbery. The state commits robbery 200,000,000 times a day. This is evil on a vast scale. To say nothing of murder, incarceration of non violent individuals... indeed the state is so evil and so obviously evil that it requires brainwashing on a massive scale so that people do not see what is staring them directly in their face.
Tax is a contribution to the state in order to pay for various things that benefit society as a whole (schools, hospitals, police, fire brigade etc.). You're also an idiot.
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You are also wrong by insisting that the atrocities are somehow inherently part of the state and non-state actors are immune to causing them. Unchecked non-state actors inflict atrocities in the same manner as states relative to their capabilities.
Again we have the semantic question of 'atrocities'. If you want to define atrocity as any garden variety slaying, you are correct. But if you want to define atrocity as I did, to mean a massive loss of life, something extremely unusual and terrible then there are structural reasons why it is only states that commit these crimes against humanity. The first is that non-state actors are generally non violent, and even the exception to this rule (for example Hamas) is only occasionally violent. States are constantly violent. Every act of the state is an act of violence, since it is preceded by taxation which is prima facie robbery or extortion. But no other organization can get away with it. For example you have the slaughter of somewhere between 100,000-> 1,000,000 innocent civilians in Iraq. Now this is obviously unjust, but it was allowed to occur and the people responsible for murder on this scale have not and will never be brought to justice. The state, or rather individuals in control of the state apparatus can literally get away with murder - although this may simply bring us back to your point, which is that state's can get away with this because they have power.
Either way, it is obvious the solution to the problem is to eliminate the power that state's hold by abolishing them. Clearly if their power enables them to commit these atrocities we must not allow them to have their power.
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On December 23 2012 06:23 TerribleNoobling wrote:
Every state is evil. Consider the act of taxation. How many times does the act of taxing someone occur? In my nation - Canada, some 40 million people - there must be at least (and this is a conservative estimate) 200,000,000 acts of taxing a day. When you consider sales tax, income tax, etc. Each of these acts is an act of robbery. The state commits robbery 200,000,000 times a day. This is evil on a vast scale. To say nothing of murder, incarceration of non violent individuals... indeed the state is so evil and so obviously evil that it requires brainwashing on a massive scale so that people do not see what is staring them directly in their face.
I'm fine with the state "robbing" me of some unnecessary part of my money if it helps construct the society I like to live in. Even if I realize some of those taxes don't go the way I would like, but I don't really care.
And this, good sir, is GROSSLY off-topic, stop derailing from guns please.
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On December 23 2012 05:53 TerribleNoobling wrote:
No, there is something inherently evil with the state. The state exists through aggressive violence. It is evil to use violence, or the threat of violence to bend another to your will.
What state? o_o
Inherently evil?
What state exists through aggressive violence?
What's going on here?
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On December 23 2012 06:31 Cutlery wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2012 05:53 TerribleNoobling wrote:
No, there is something inherently evil with the state. The state exists through aggressive violence. It is evil to use violence, or the threat of violence to bend another to your will. What state? o_o Inherently evil? What state exists through aggressive violence? What's going on here?
He's an anarchist who pretty much succeded on destroying this thread :/
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Tax is a contribution to the state in order to pay for various things that benefit society as a whole (schools, hospitals, police, fire brigade etc.). You're also an idiot.
If free health care and free school were such great ideas, you'd think you could finance them without having to threaten me with being locked in a cage to obtain the revenue. Obviously we should have schools and hospitals - but these can be funded voluntarily by consumers instead of relying on the business model of a highway robber.
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United Kingdom10006 Posts
I was having a good productive discussion in here last night that changed my view on a few things...
What happened?
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I'm having a discussion with some people. You could always make a new gun thread instead of whining in this one and telling me to shut up and calling me crazy or stupid.
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On December 23 2012 06:33 TerribleNoobling wrote:Show nested quote +Tax is a contribution to the state in order to pay for various things that benefit society as a whole (schools, hospitals, police, fire brigade etc.). You're also an idiot.
If free health care and free school were such great ideas, you'd think you could finance them without having to threaten me with being locked in a cage to obtain the revenue. Obviously we should have schools and hospitals - but these can be funded voluntarily by consumers instead of relying on the business model of a highway robber.
If people don't pay tax then they're just leeching off of the state. I'm banishing you back to trolldom. You're also not from Canada (glaring error in one of your posts - see if you can spot which one gave it away  ).
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On December 23 2012 06:34 TerribleNoobling wrote:
I'm having a discussion with some people. You could always make a new gun thread instead of whining in this one and telling me to shut up and calling me crazy or stupid.
Or you could make a new thread with an appropriate title for the discussion you're having, as is usual in forums.
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On December 23 2012 06:23 TerribleNoobling wrote:
Every state is evil. Consider the act of taxation. How many times does the act of taxing someone occur? In my nation - Canada, some 40 million people - there must be at least (and this is a conservative estimate) 200,000,000 acts of taxing a day. When you consider sales tax, income tax, etc. Each of these acts is an act of robbery. The state commits robbery 200,000,000 times a day. This is evil on a vast scale. To say nothing of murder, incarceration of non violent individuals... indeed the state is so evil and so obviously evil that it requires brainwashing on a massive scale so that people do not see what is staring them directly in their face.
Huh? People pay taxes so I can go to school. Society wants people to be educated and not be farmers. Even long ago we had "taxation", for instance in feudalism, where people paid for protection.
How do you expect to succeed in a vacuum, where no one helps anyone? And you conclude that taxing is stealing and thus evil. I don't follow this train of thought.
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On December 23 2012 05:36 TerribleNoobling wrote:
Anyway, I am glad we can both agree with my original point - that states are responsible for all of the worst atrocities visited upon humanity. It's an important fact to understand.
What about religion?
Sure you don't mean that people are responsible for the atrocities?
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Taxation is nothing new, I will grant you that. Since as long as the state has existed people have been forced to give their hard earned wealth to the parasites in charge.
Taxation is robbery. You have two choices - pay your taxes or go to jail (aka have violence done to you). This is exactly the same choice a mugger gives you in an alley - give up your wallet or get beaten badly. What don't you follow?
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On December 23 2012 06:36 mordk wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2012 06:34 TerribleNoobling wrote:
I'm having a discussion with some people. You could always make a new gun thread instead of whining in this one and telling me to shut up and calling me crazy or stupid. Or you could make a new thread with an appropriate title for the discussion you're having, as is usual in forums.
But i doubt a lot of people would participate in a thread called "random incoherent anarchist ramblings, which might very well just be some guy trolling"
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On December 23 2012 06:38 Cutlery wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2012 05:36 TerribleNoobling wrote:
Anyway, I am glad we can both agree with my original point - that states are responsible for all of the worst atrocities visited upon humanity. It's an important fact to understand. What about religion?
What about religion? it wasn't the Catholic church that murdered 10,000,000 Russians. It wasn't Islam that caused the Khmer's barbaric drive to the countryside. Religion is, over all, I think a force for good in this world. It's voluntary (at least in my society). No one is forced to participate in it. Religion teaches us not to lie, not to steal, no to cheat, not to kill.
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On December 23 2012 06:39 TerribleNoobling wrote:
Taxation is nothing new, I will grant you that. Since as long as the state has existed people have been forced to give their hard earned wealth to the parasites in charge.
Taxation is robbery. You have two choices - pay your taxes or go to jail (aka have violence done to you). This is exactly the same choice a mugger gives you in an alley - give up your wallet or get beaten badly. What don't you follow?
Taxation is robbery how?
Explain to me how you earn money, and then explain to me why the taxes you pay are robbery.
Let me go first.
For a while I was teaching at a school. Tax payers funded the school and my pay check. I paid some taxes back. Without taxes I would not have a job. Hence I didn't feel robbed.
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Sure you don't mean that people are responsible for the atrocities?
Obviously yes people. I mean, states cannot do anything, only people can do things. Collectives cannot act. When I say states are responsible what I really mean is the people in charge of the state apparatus. But all of the worst things that have ever been done to humanity in the history of humanity have been at the hands of the people in charge of the state apparatus - at the hands of the state.
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For a while I was teaching at a school. Tax payers funded the school and my pay check. I paid some taxes back. Without taxes I would not have a job. Hence I didn't feel robbed.
You weren't robbed. You did the robbing. Net tax recipients don't pay taxes - the taxes they pay are better expressed as a reduction in salary.
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On December 23 2012 06:42 TerribleNoobling wrote:Obviously yes people. I mean, states cannot do anything, only people can do things. Collectives cannot act. When I say states are responsible what I really mean is the people in charge of the state apparatus. But all of the worst things that have ever been done to humanity in the history of humanity have been at the hands of the people in charge of the state apparatus - at the hands of the state.
But in a democracy, the people are in charge.
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On December 23 2012 06:43 TerribleNoobling wrote:Show nested quote +For a while I was teaching at a school. Tax payers funded the school and my pay check. I paid some taxes back. Without taxes I would not have a job. Hence I didn't feel robbed. You weren't robbed. You did the robbing. Net tax recipients don't pay taxes - the taxes they pay are better expressed as a reduction in salary.
Oh ok. I should teach children full time for free? And pay their school books?
Know you anything about economy, and how money makes the world go 'round? Without government and taxes, the economy stops working and money is worthless. Worthless. There would be no monetary value left to rob from you. That what you want?
This is an exercise in futility, I'm sure.
And no, taxes is not the same as a reduction in salary. Taxes give value to services which people/government/democracy thinks should be free or subsidized. For instance, growing up costs hundreds of thousand of dollars. A child cannot bear this price tag. The only other solution would be absolving government and most rights to property, and have everyone work to feed themselves.
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EPT
