If you feel the need to post a reaction to the news, post a comment on the youtube video. Don't bring it here. This thread is for a discussion on the topic, and your post better have substance to it. Low content posts will be met with moderator action.
Here is a good post by someone with experience in escalation of force training. Read that too. This post might change your opinion of in the incident.
On January 25 2012 15:27 Curu wrote: Dunno if it's been posted already but this immediately came to mind:
Justified IMO. If you blatantly disregard multiple warnings and make any indication you are going for a weapon you deserve to be shot.
(Warning the video will make you feel like shit afterwards)
Very powerful footage. It's no pleasure watching this but I respectfully incite those who believe that American policeman are trigger happy to watch this. It helps understand why they somehow act the way they do.
How would you implement your rules for police officers, given what the law says, and that in your video, everything the attacker did up until raising his weapon was perfectly legal. Do people have a right to do things that are legal, until a police officer tells them otherwise?
I thought that the police officer overreacted in shooting the guy with the crow bar to death but that video seriously makes me think otherwise now... I mean jesus fucking christ that's a terrible video. Usually I'm indifferent to all sorts of gore videos even if they are real. But the fact that we are here arguing and debating on whether or not the police officer should not have acted the way he did makes me feel sick after watching the video.
I'm such a moderate when it comes to these things sometimes. Although in the past I have had narrow minded opinions on some threads in the general section, for the most part I'm moderate and don't bother posting.
But in the end I think it really comes to a better understanding of the situation. In the video where the officers died, I don't anyone would have any qualms if they had unloaded their entire clips in to that insane man's body. In the case of the guy with the crowbar, there would have been alternatives, and furthermore the man had his hands out and equipped with just a crowbar- not a gun.
I'm reminded of the thread about the bully who was stabbed by his victim.
It's amazing how many people will insist that society needs to prioritize the safety of violent attackers over the safety of innocents and law enforcement.
As an aside, the lesson that LEO's should take away from this incident is to ditch 9mm in favor of heavier rounds like .45 ACP and 10mm. Aside from the obvious advantages in stopping determined (and possibly high) threats more quickly, it's apparent that the uninformed public, has a negative opinion of using a large volume of fire. Relying on heavier weaponry would reduce the number of rounds necessary to stop a threat, even if this would have the same or even higher lethality (the ignorant public, as can be evidenced by this thread, wouldn't know any better; all they can see is "too many shots").
I know that there is plenty of violence in the USA, number one among so called civilized countries and by incarceration rate too And the police office cannot be too humane, if there is even 10% probability to die for a police officer, the threat will be killed. But from someone form Europe it looks very weird. Even more weird that 5 last unnecessary shots. Even more weird the fact that there are people who justify that murder.
I can imagine many possible ways to solve that actually standard situation without killing the person.
On January 29 2012 07:43 GeyzeR wrote: I know that there is plenty of violence in the USA, number one among so called civilized countries and by incarceration rate too And the police office cannot be too humane, if there is even 10% probability to die for a police officer, the threat will be killed. But from someone form Europe it looks very weird. Even more weird that 5 last unnecessary shots. Even more weird the fact that there are people who justify that murder.
I can imagine many possible ways to solve that actually standard situation without killing the person.
Dude. It's not murder. Murder is the unlawful premeditated killing of another person. This is clearly not the case.
Sometimes it helps to step back from the situation and think about the principles involved. I a normally harsh critic of police misconduct, but I firmly believe that, as a society, we must set certain rules to allow them to perform their jobs safely. One of those rules is that, when confronted with a potentially lethal attack, we allow them to defend themselves to the fullest extent possible. It's important to recognize that everyone in the United States understands that fact. When you threaten a fellow member of your society, particularly a police officer, you forfeit your right to safety up to and including your life. It's a similar situation to burglary in states with a "castle doctrine:" invade someone's home and your life is in their hands. The key aspect of both rules, and the reason that I support them, is that there is absolutely no danger to law-abiding citizens. Want to stay alive? Don't threaten citizens, cops, or invade someone's home. The choice is yours.
This suspect, of his own volition, gave away his right to safety when he threatened the police officers. I don't care if they felt like they needed 100 shots to protect themselves. The man with the crowbar forfeited any right to safety when he threatened them with deadly force and did not stop when asked. No one made him do that, whether he was on drugs or not. So, his life becomes less important than the safety of these police officers who are trying to do their job and go home to their families. I think that's a totally reasonable standard.
Effectively, it is a societal decision that the officers' safety is paramount, and the man with the crowbar was 100% responsible for creating the situation. He made it clear that he had no regard for his own life when he continued menacing cops with a crowbar.
On January 29 2012 07:56 Olinimm wrote: Dude. It's not murder. Murder is the unlawful premeditated killing of another person. This is clearly not the case.
I am not agree with that law, that allow a policeman to kill in case of a slight danger to his death, without taking all possible measures to avoid it It is not my law and from my point of view it is a murder. You do not like some laws in Muslim countries, like how they treat cheating woman etc., but you are absolutely OK with a law that permit an unnecessary death. What is better, 1 dead policemen or 10 dead suspects?
On January 29 2012 07:43 GeyzeR wrote: But from someone form Europe it looks very weird. Even more weird that 5 last unnecessary shots. Even more weird the fact that there are people who justify that murder.
That's because you've been influenced by Hollywood movies. Multiple shots is standard training when your intent is to bring down the target. A single shot, unless it hits a select number of locations, is extremely unlikely to stop someone from attacking back.
I can imagine many possible ways to solve that actually standard situation without killing the person.
Name them, then, and I'm sure we can discuss why those methods aren't recommended.
On January 29 2012 07:56 Olinimm wrote: Dude. It's not murder. Murder is the unlawful premeditated killing of another person. This is clearly not the case.
I am not agree with that law, that allow a policeman to kill in case of a slight danger to his death, without taking all possible measures to avoid it It is not my law and from my point of view it is a murder. You do not like some laws in Muslim countries, like how they treat cheating woman etc., but you are absolutely OK with a law that permit an unnecessary death. What is better, 1 dead policemen or 10 dead suspects?
It's not about which situation is better. It's about how that guy was threatening and quite close to bashing that policeman's head in with a weapon so the cop had the right to defend himself and his partner. I.E. not murder. And actually I'd rather 10 violent maniacs that would attack people with a weapon for no reason be dead than one decent police officer.
On January 29 2012 08:43 GeyzeR wrote:I am not agree with that law, that allow a policeman to kill in case of a slight danger to his death, without taking all possible measures to avoid it It is not my law and from my point of view it is a murder. You do not like some laws in Muslim countries, like how they treat cheating woman etc., but you are absolutely OK with a law that permit an unnecessary death.
It's not a matter of a point of view. You simply don't understand the definition of murder.
On January 29 2012 08:43 GeyzeR wrote:What is better, 1 dead policemen or 10 dead suspects?
If by "suspect" you mean violent attacker assaulting police officers with a deadly weapon, then I would rather that a hundred of them be killed rather than a single law-abiding police officer.
On January 29 2012 07:56 Olinimm wrote: Dude. It's not murder. Murder is the unlawful premeditated killing of another person. This is clearly not the case.
I am not agree with that law, that allow a policeman to kill in case of a slight danger to his death, without taking all possible measures to avoid it It is not my law and from my point of view it is a murder. You do not like some laws in Muslim countries, like how they treat cheating woman etc., but you are absolutely OK with a law that permit an unnecessary death. What is better, 1 dead policemen or 10 dead suspects?
And from the point of view of many other people, if the policeman was not allowed to shoot to defend himself, the people that made that law would be guilty of his murder.
On January 29 2012 07:56 Olinimm wrote: Dude. It's not murder. Murder is the unlawful premeditated killing of another person. This is clearly not the case.
I am not agree with that law, that allow a policeman to kill in case of a slight danger to his death, without taking all possible measures to avoid it It is not my law and from my point of view it is a murder. You do not like some laws in Muslim countries, like how they treat cheating woman etc., but you are absolutely OK with a law that permit an unnecessary death. What is better, 1 dead policemen or 10 dead suspects?
It's not about which situation is better. It's about how that guy was threatening and quite close to bashing that policeman's head in with a weapon so the cop had the right to defend himself and his partner. I.E. not murder. And actually I'd rather 10 violent maniacs that would attack people with a weapon for no reason be dead than one decent police officer.
Yeah, Thats a stupid question. Who in their right mind would choose 10 (attempted) murderers above 1 policeman? And what policeman in their right mind would ever choose a criminals life over his own?
Are you really so narrow minded that you think its ok to let policemen die because you think they shouldn't be allowed to defend themselves?
Heres another clue to you. You are under the same law as a police officer. If someone attempts to take your life, you have the right to defend yourself by any means. Do you really want that law taken away from you? Do you really want to go to prison because someone else tried to kill you and you stopped him?
edit: I'm answering to the quote in the quote btw, if that wasn't obvious.
Justified IMO. If you blatantly disregard multiple warnings and make any indication you are going for a weapon you deserve to be shot.
(Warning the video will make you feel like shit afterwards)
I can usually look at "NSFL" links no problem, but in this case, the warning was accurate, I do feel like shit. This video is like the reverse of the OP video: instead of the crazy homicidal maniac getting killed, the cop is killed, screaming for mercy. Ugggh.
the thing that REALLY bothers me is how everyone just stood around after it happened. instead of helping the guy after they shot him, an officer just stood over him. i'm sure they called an ambulance, but they could have at least tried to help keep the guy alive after putting 10 rounds in him.
Considering cops in many urban areas aren't trained or equipped medically, there isn't much else they could reasonably do other than call an ambulance and secure the area.
Pretty funny video. Watch to the end imo, to see one of the UK cops mace himself. LOL. The shields were a good move though, pretty much nullified the machete.
This strategy would never work in the US of course, since we are all armed to the teeth. It's better for the cops to shoot first when confronted with a violent individual.
Pretty funny video. Watch to the end imo, to see one of the UK cops mace himself. LOL. The shields were a good move though, pretty much nullified the machete.
This strategy would never work in the US of course, since we are all armed to the teeth. It's better for the cops to shoot first when confronted with a violent individual.
I agree it seems a bit comical when he tries to use a bin, but at the end of the day nobody was killed..
On January 29 2012 07:42 sunprince wrote: As an aside, the lesson that LEO's should take away from this incident is to ditch 9mm in favor of heavier rounds like .45 ACP and 10mm. Aside from the obvious advantages in stopping determined (and possibly high) threats more quickly, it's apparent that the uninformed public, has a negative opinion of using a large volume of fire. Relying on heavier weaponry would reduce the number of rounds necessary to stop a threat, even if this would have the same or even higher lethality (the ignorant public, as can be evidenced by this thread, wouldn't know any better; all they can see is "too many shots").
Bullets don't magically halt when they miss or encounter obstacles like walls, your suggestion is to appease the uninformed public (when shootings like this aren't even widely opposed in the US) at the cost of increased harm and danger to innocent bystandards and other civilians.
Wow that came out of nowhere, if it wasnt for the comment I would have thought the cops would have waited a little longer but it really surprised me how quickly things escalted. I cant believe that the tasering events they described failed and what other measures for diffusing the situation failed previous to this. Its really easy to react harshly agaisnt the cops here because atleast according to the news report were only seeing part of the actual event.
Are there any statistics on how many people die in similar situations to this because I certainly hope this is an isolated event.
EPT
