|
We are extremely close to shutting down this thread for the same reasons the PUA thread was shut down. While some of the time this thread contains actual discussion with people asking help and people giving nice advice, it often gets derailed by rubbish that should not be here. The moderation team will be trying to steer this thread in a different direction from now on.
Posts of the following nature are banned:
1) ANYTHING regarding PUA. If your post contains the words 'alpha' or 'beta' or anything of that sort please don't hit post.
2) Stupid brags. You can tell us about your nice success stories with someone, but posts such as 'lol 50 Tinder matches' are a no-no.
3) Any misogynistic bullshit, including discussion about rape culture.
4) One night stands and random sex. These are basically brags that invariably devolve into gender role discussions and misogynistic comments.
Last chance, guys. This thread is for dating advice and sharing dating stories. While gender roles, sociocultural norms, and our biological imperative to reproduce are all tangentially related, these subjects are not the main purpose of the thread. Please AVOID these discussions. If you want to discuss them at length, go to PMs or start a blog. If you disagree with someone's ideologies, state that you disagree with them and why they won't work from a dating standpoint and move on. We will not tolerate any lengthy derailments that aren't directly about dating. |
On June 01 2013 00:40 Killscreen wrote:
The truth is this; genetically we are all cavemen, and women today respond to the same thing cave women did. Dont think for a second that sexual preference is decided by anything other than genes; it's way too important to be left up to chance. They want a guy who wont put up with their shit, who will spank their ass and pull their hair. Its an ugly truth, and super politically incorrect, but the truth nonetheless.
In my experience this is only applicable for a certain set of women, to which not all belong. One common characteristic women are attracted to seems to be confidence, but beyond that you have to take each woman for their own entity and make your judgements of character, not assume that one way of acting will be the trick. Also there are women who are specifically attracted to unconfident people! I think your attempt to 'simplify' matters by making it out that every woman wants to be with a caveman is unhelpful.
|
On June 01 2013 00:40 Killscreen wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2013 00:11 kyllinghest wrote:On May 31 2013 23:56 Killscreen wrote:On May 31 2013 23:09 kyllinghest wrote:On May 31 2013 22:59 kaykaykay wrote:
So you're suggesting I assume that she's interested.
"Yo, stop it, you have a boyfriend already."
"Well, who said anything about liking you anyway?"
I'm just trying to be nice and keep it cool yo. Maybe I shouldn't have thrown that part in about the hareem building.
But I was genuinely trying to be nice.
I mean cmon, this applies to both genders.
If some dude keeps asking you out, many times, doing all the goofy stuff, the least you could do was try ONE date out yes? Im sure you are a very nice guy, and perhaps it was kind and polite to go on that one date. I still think you should tell her how you feel about her now. I dont want to troll you here man, but "tell her how you feel" is almost always a bad idea regardless of context, and certainly in this one. It would be awkward as fuck. Men don't talk about our feeling unless we absolutely have to, and when we do have to, we lie. I think you and I have a very different approach to other people, lets just agree to disagree. Like I said, im not trying to troll or antagonize you. It's just hard for me to hold my tongue when I know for a fact that you are giving bad advice. Can I ask how old you are? The truth is this; genetically we are all cavemen, and women today respond to the same thing cave women did. Dont think for a second that sexual preference is decided by anything other than genes; it's way too important to be left up to chance. They want a guy who wont put up with their shit, who will spank their ass and pull their hair. Its an ugly truth, and super politically incorrect, but the truth nonetheless. Sex for the feminine is an act of submission to the dominant masculine. Doesn't mean they submit in other contexts, but when it comes to sex they do, or at least want to. Bottom line; if you want to succeed with women you need to be a man who is capable of dominating them in bed. A sensitive man who talks about his feelings a lot just isn't that man. I realize that the guy we are talking about isnt trying to have sex with this girl, but the principle still applies. Be a man! Watch HBOs Rome and look how Marc Anthony behaves for a good example of what a dominant alpha male looks like.
I am 24 years old, whilst I am aware of the fact that I have incredibly much to learn about life I have never had any trouble with women. Don't mistake my belief in honesty and kindness with a lack of directness and self belief.
I don't think you are wrong necessarily, I just think there are better ways to start a possibly meaningful realationship than lying and decieving to seem butch. You can be the decisionmaker and problemsolver women want without being a jerk!
|
On June 01 2013 00:53 sc4k wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2013 00:40 Killscreen wrote:
The truth is this; genetically we are all cavemen, and women today respond to the same thing cave women did. Dont think for a second that sexual preference is decided by anything other than genes; it's way too important to be left up to chance. They want a guy who wont put up with their shit, who will spank their ass and pull their hair. Its an ugly truth, and super politically incorrect, but the truth nonetheless.
In my experience this is only applicable for a certain set of women, to which not all belong. One common characteristic women are attracted to seems to be confidence, but beyond that you have to take each woman for their own entity and make your judgements of character, not assume that one way of acting will be the trick. Also there are women who are specifically attracted to unconfident people! I think your attempt to 'simplify' matters by making it out that every woman wants to be with a caveman is unhelpful.
Its very hard to discuss dating and women without generalizing. What I wrote wont apply to 100% of all women, but it does apply to most. Like I said, this is determined by genes. Women can have a limited number of children, so they have to be picky with which male they choose to mix their genes with, and they are programmed to pick males with the best genes available. Like all other social mammals, the alpha male is the usual choice.
Im sure there are women who are attracted to unconfident men; there are women who are attracted to other women, dead bodies and trees, which technically speaking is a dysfunction ( just like allergy and color blindness are dysfunctions ), since these attractions will produce poor offspring or none at all.
Its as true as saying men are attracted to women with hourglass shaped bodies who have symmetric facial features correlated with fertility. There are exceptions to this, but its still true for a vast majority of men.
|
On June 01 2013 01:01 kyllinghest wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2013 00:40 Killscreen wrote:On June 01 2013 00:11 kyllinghest wrote:On May 31 2013 23:56 Killscreen wrote:On May 31 2013 23:09 kyllinghest wrote:On May 31 2013 22:59 kaykaykay wrote:
So you're suggesting I assume that she's interested.
"Yo, stop it, you have a boyfriend already."
"Well, who said anything about liking you anyway?"
I'm just trying to be nice and keep it cool yo. Maybe I shouldn't have thrown that part in about the hareem building.
But I was genuinely trying to be nice.
I mean cmon, this applies to both genders.
If some dude keeps asking you out, many times, doing all the goofy stuff, the least you could do was try ONE date out yes? Im sure you are a very nice guy, and perhaps it was kind and polite to go on that one date. I still think you should tell her how you feel about her now. I dont want to troll you here man, but "tell her how you feel" is almost always a bad idea regardless of context, and certainly in this one. It would be awkward as fuck. Men don't talk about our feeling unless we absolutely have to, and when we do have to, we lie. I think you and I have a very different approach to other people, lets just agree to disagree. Like I said, im not trying to troll or antagonize you. It's just hard for me to hold my tongue when I know for a fact that you are giving bad advice. Can I ask how old you are? The truth is this; genetically we are all cavemen, and women today respond to the same thing cave women did. Dont think for a second that sexual preference is decided by anything other than genes; it's way too important to be left up to chance. They want a guy who wont put up with their shit, who will spank their ass and pull their hair. Its an ugly truth, and super politically incorrect, but the truth nonetheless. Sex for the feminine is an act of submission to the dominant masculine. Doesn't mean they submit in other contexts, but when it comes to sex they do, or at least want to. Bottom line; if you want to succeed with women you need to be a man who is capable of dominating them in bed. A sensitive man who talks about his feelings a lot just isn't that man. I realize that the guy we are talking about isnt trying to have sex with this girl, but the principle still applies. Be a man! Watch HBOs Rome and look how Marc Anthony behaves for a good example of what a dominant alpha male looks like. I am 24 years old, whilst I am aware of the fact that I have incredibly much to learn about life I have never had any trouble with women. Don't mistake my belief in honesty and kindness with a lack of directness and self belief. I don't think you are wrong, I just think there are better ways to start a possibly meaningful realationship than lying and decieving to seem butch. You can be the decisionmaker and problemsolver women want without being a jerk!
Not talking about your feelings is not the same as lying, being unkind or a jerk. I never said you should be a liar or a jerk. I just said you should be masculine in the traditional sense which is natural for a male.
|
On June 01 2013 00:25 kaykaykay wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2013 23:56 Killscreen wrote:On May 31 2013 23:09 kyllinghest wrote:On May 31 2013 22:59 kaykaykay wrote:
So you're suggesting I assume that she's interested.
"Yo, stop it, you have a boyfriend already."
"Well, who said anything about liking you anyway?"
I'm just trying to be nice and keep it cool yo. Maybe I shouldn't have thrown that part in about the hareem building.
But I was genuinely trying to be nice.
I mean cmon, this applies to both genders.
If some dude keeps asking you out, many times, doing all the goofy stuff, the least you could do was try ONE date out yes? Im sure you are a very nice guy, and perhaps it was kind and polite to go on that one date. I still think you should tell her how you feel about her now. I dont want to troll you here man, but "tell her how you feel" is almost always a bad idea regardless of context, and certainly in this one. It would be awkward as fuck. Men don't talk about our feeling unless we absolutely have to, and when we do have to, we lie. I have to agree with him here. Attractive men look like they're always in control and 'coming clean' with your feelings will inevitably lead to her thinking you're weird/creepy.
*lock eyes with her* "Wow, I really like you. As a friend, I mean. You're like a little sister to me."
...and then enjoy the power of the friend zone unfold.
(Don't do this if you really want to keep her off you. In that case just be "normal" but avoid any and all touchy things as best as you can and wait for her to friend zone you. =P)
|
On June 01 2013 01:07 Killscreen wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2013 01:01 kyllinghest wrote:On June 01 2013 00:40 Killscreen wrote:On June 01 2013 00:11 kyllinghest wrote:On May 31 2013 23:56 Killscreen wrote:On May 31 2013 23:09 kyllinghest wrote:On May 31 2013 22:59 kaykaykay wrote:
So you're suggesting I assume that she's interested.
"Yo, stop it, you have a boyfriend already."
"Well, who said anything about liking you anyway?"
I'm just trying to be nice and keep it cool yo. Maybe I shouldn't have thrown that part in about the hareem building.
But I was genuinely trying to be nice.
I mean cmon, this applies to both genders.
If some dude keeps asking you out, many times, doing all the goofy stuff, the least you could do was try ONE date out yes? Im sure you are a very nice guy, and perhaps it was kind and polite to go on that one date. I still think you should tell her how you feel about her now. I dont want to troll you here man, but "tell her how you feel" is almost always a bad idea regardless of context, and certainly in this one. It would be awkward as fuck. Men don't talk about our feeling unless we absolutely have to, and when we do have to, we lie. I think you and I have a very different approach to other people, lets just agree to disagree. Like I said, im not trying to troll or antagonize you. It's just hard for me to hold my tongue when I know for a fact that you are giving bad advice. Can I ask how old you are? The truth is this; genetically we are all cavemen, and women today respond to the same thing cave women did. Dont think for a second that sexual preference is decided by anything other than genes; it's way too important to be left up to chance. They want a guy who wont put up with their shit, who will spank their ass and pull their hair. Its an ugly truth, and super politically incorrect, but the truth nonetheless. Sex for the feminine is an act of submission to the dominant masculine. Doesn't mean they submit in other contexts, but when it comes to sex they do, or at least want to. Bottom line; if you want to succeed with women you need to be a man who is capable of dominating them in bed. A sensitive man who talks about his feelings a lot just isn't that man. I realize that the guy we are talking about isnt trying to have sex with this girl, but the principle still applies. Be a man! Watch HBOs Rome and look how Marc Anthony behaves for a good example of what a dominant alpha male looks like. I am 24 years old, whilst I am aware of the fact that I have incredibly much to learn about life I have never had any trouble with women. Don't mistake my belief in honesty and kindness with a lack of directness and self belief. I don't think you are wrong, I just think there are better ways to start a possibly meaningful realationship than lying and decieving to seem butch. You can be the decisionmaker and problemsolver women want without being a jerk! Not talking about your feelings is not the same as lying, being unkind or a jerk. I never said you should be a liar or a jerk. I just said you should be masculine in the traditional sense which is natural for a male.
And that masculinity goes away if you tell someone you don't like them in a romantic way? Again, lets just disagree on this whole thing.
|
On June 01 2013 01:01 Killscreen wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2013 00:53 sc4k wrote:On June 01 2013 00:40 Killscreen wrote:
The truth is this; genetically we are all cavemen, and women today respond to the same thing cave women did. Dont think for a second that sexual preference is decided by anything other than genes; it's way too important to be left up to chance. They want a guy who wont put up with their shit, who will spank their ass and pull their hair. Its an ugly truth, and super politically incorrect, but the truth nonetheless.
In my experience this is only applicable for a certain set of women, to which not all belong. One common characteristic women are attracted to seems to be confidence, but beyond that you have to take each woman for their own entity and make your judgements of character, not assume that one way of acting will be the trick. Also there are women who are specifically attracted to unconfident people! I think your attempt to 'simplify' matters by making it out that every woman wants to be with a caveman is unhelpful. Its very hard to discuss dating and women without generalizing. What I wrote wont apply to 100% of all women, but it does apply to most. Like I said, this is determined by genes. Women can have a limited number of children, so they have to be picky with which male they choose to mix their genes with, and they are programmed to pick males with the best genes available. Like all other social mammals, the alpha male is the usual choice. Im sure there are women who are attracted to unconfident men; there are women who are attracted to other women, dead bodies and trees, which technically speaking is a dysfunction ( just like allergy and color blindness are dysfunctions ), since these attractions will produce poor offspring or none at all. Its as true as saying men are attracted to women with hourglass shaped bodies who have symmetric facial features correlated with fertility. There are exceptions to this, but its still true for a vast majority of men.
Well I have been observing couples for a long time as I am an experienced 'observer' and I believe that people often go for opposites to 'balance' out their genes. I also believe that men and women can all be placed on a different point in the scale between masculine and feminine. There are male 'brained' individuals who are heterosexual females, and female brained individuals who are heterosexual males. By no means are they in the minority either, I have observed that it seems for every 'manly-brained' male there will be an 'androgenous-brained' male and the opposite is true for females.
Purely feminine, pink-everywhere and puppies-on-the-brain women, who appreciate straightforward manliness and ruggedness, are not nearly as common as you might think. The same goes for men who are solely interested in hunting, sex and combat. I have observed that these two 'extremes' are attracted to each other the same way that tall guys and short girls so often get together. It's about balancing the scale.
It follows, therefore, that the people whose brains are more centrally orientated will respond better and be more attracted to more moderate behaviour and less extreme 'male' or 'female' characteristics. And I believe this is certainly the case. I would estimate that as many women I know who enjoy the 'caveman' act are turned off completely by it.
|
I'll also add that gender essential thinking is rather outdated. As a man, I consider it my duty to challenge and redefine others' definition of "masculinity". I'm a gym rat, personal trainer, and I love playing football and practicing boxing, but I also adore poetry, singing and dancing in public, and *gasp* talking about my feelings in an upfront manner. Clinging to outdated norms of gender essentialist behavior in pursuit of fitting some sort of cardboard "masculine" category is silly.
|
On June 01 2013 01:19 sc4k wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2013 01:01 Killscreen wrote:On June 01 2013 00:53 sc4k wrote:On June 01 2013 00:40 Killscreen wrote:
The truth is this; genetically we are all cavemen, and women today respond to the same thing cave women did. Dont think for a second that sexual preference is decided by anything other than genes; it's way too important to be left up to chance. They want a guy who wont put up with their shit, who will spank their ass and pull their hair. Its an ugly truth, and super politically incorrect, but the truth nonetheless.
In my experience this is only applicable for a certain set of women, to which not all belong. One common characteristic women are attracted to seems to be confidence, but beyond that you have to take each woman for their own entity and make your judgements of character, not assume that one way of acting will be the trick. Also there are women who are specifically attracted to unconfident people! I think your attempt to 'simplify' matters by making it out that every woman wants to be with a caveman is unhelpful. Its very hard to discuss dating and women without generalizing. What I wrote wont apply to 100% of all women, but it does apply to most. Like I said, this is determined by genes. Women can have a limited number of children, so they have to be picky with which male they choose to mix their genes with, and they are programmed to pick males with the best genes available. Like all other social mammals, the alpha male is the usual choice. Im sure there are women who are attracted to unconfident men; there are women who are attracted to other women, dead bodies and trees, which technically speaking is a dysfunction ( just like allergy and color blindness are dysfunctions ), since these attractions will produce poor offspring or none at all. Its as true as saying men are attracted to women with hourglass shaped bodies who have symmetric facial features correlated with fertility. There are exceptions to this, but its still true for a vast majority of men. Well I have been observing couples for a long time as I am an experienced 'observer' and I believe that people often go for opposites to 'balance' out their genes. I also believe that men and women can all be placed on a different point in the scale between masculine and feminine. There are male 'brained' individuals who are heterosexual females, and female brained individuals who are heterosexual males. By no means are they in the minority either, I have observed that it seems for every 'manly-brained' male there will be an 'androgenous-brained' male and the opposite is true for females. Purely feminine, pink-everywhere and puppies-on-the-brain women, who appreciate straightforward manliness and ruggedness, are not nearly as common as you might think. The same goes for men who are solely interested in hunting, sex and combat. I have observed that these two 'extremes' are attracted to each other the same way that tall guys and short girls so often get together. It's about balancing the scale. It follows, therefore, that the people whose brains are more centrally orientated will respond better and be more attracted to more moderate behaviour and less extreme 'male' or 'female' characteristics. And I believe this is certainly the case. I would estimate that as many women I know who enjoy the 'caveman' act are turned off completely by it.
Im sorry but this is anecdotal and doesn't constitute data. I have studied evolutionary biology and sexual selection at a university, so Im not just basing this on my own personal experiences, its actual science. The fact is that not everyone is able to attract the type of mate they would like and have to settle for the person they are able to attract.
Look at it this way; do you see a lot of variation in male and female sex symbols? I think you'll find that most fit my descriptions. You might not think Jonny Depp is very masculine, but he is. Girls are attracted to Justin Bieber, women arent.
|
On June 01 2013 01:29 Killscreen wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2013 01:19 sc4k wrote:On June 01 2013 01:01 Killscreen wrote:On June 01 2013 00:53 sc4k wrote:On June 01 2013 00:40 Killscreen wrote:
The truth is this; genetically we are all cavemen, and women today respond to the same thing cave women did. Dont think for a second that sexual preference is decided by anything other than genes; it's way too important to be left up to chance. They want a guy who wont put up with their shit, who will spank their ass and pull their hair. Its an ugly truth, and super politically incorrect, but the truth nonetheless.
In my experience this is only applicable for a certain set of women, to which not all belong. One common characteristic women are attracted to seems to be confidence, but beyond that you have to take each woman for their own entity and make your judgements of character, not assume that one way of acting will be the trick. Also there are women who are specifically attracted to unconfident people! I think your attempt to 'simplify' matters by making it out that every woman wants to be with a caveman is unhelpful. Its very hard to discuss dating and women without generalizing. What I wrote wont apply to 100% of all women, but it does apply to most. Like I said, this is determined by genes. Women can have a limited number of children, so they have to be picky with which male they choose to mix their genes with, and they are programmed to pick males with the best genes available. Like all other social mammals, the alpha male is the usual choice. Im sure there are women who are attracted to unconfident men; there are women who are attracted to other women, dead bodies and trees, which technically speaking is a dysfunction ( just like allergy and color blindness are dysfunctions ), since these attractions will produce poor offspring or none at all. Its as true as saying men are attracted to women with hourglass shaped bodies who have symmetric facial features correlated with fertility. There are exceptions to this, but its still true for a vast majority of men. Well I have been observing couples for a long time as I am an experienced 'observer' and I believe that people often go for opposites to 'balance' out their genes. I also believe that men and women can all be placed on a different point in the scale between masculine and feminine. There are male 'brained' individuals who are heterosexual females, and female brained individuals who are heterosexual males. By no means are they in the minority either, I have observed that it seems for every 'manly-brained' male there will be an 'androgenous-brained' male and the opposite is true for females. Purely feminine, pink-everywhere and puppies-on-the-brain women, who appreciate straightforward manliness and ruggedness, are not nearly as common as you might think. The same goes for men who are solely interested in hunting, sex and combat. I have observed that these two 'extremes' are attracted to each other the same way that tall guys and short girls so often get together. It's about balancing the scale. It follows, therefore, that the people whose brains are more centrally orientated will respond better and be more attracted to more moderate behaviour and less extreme 'male' or 'female' characteristics. And I believe this is certainly the case. I would estimate that as many women I know who enjoy the 'caveman' act are turned off completely by it. Im sorry but this is anecdotal and doesn't constitute data. I have studied evolutionary biology and sexual selection at a university, so Im not just basing this on my own personal experiences, its actual science. The fact is that not everyone is able to attract the type of mate they would like and have to settle for the person they are able to attract. Look at it this way; do you see a lot of variation in male and female sex symbols? I think you'll find that most fit my descriptions. You might not think Jonny Depp is very masculine, but he is. Girls are attracted to Justin Bieber, women arent.
For someone who studies evolutionary biology and sexual selection, you don't seem to be aware of the notion that genetic determinism is a fringe view that virtually nobody holds to (in the strong sense of it utterly determining in an unambiguous way what people do). To say that women are "programmed" to like particular things is absurd and has no scientific basis. Perhaps there is some weak predisposition for women to prefer certain things over others, but it is a weak predisposition, not a deterministic programming.
|
On June 01 2013 01:24 farvacola wrote:
I'll also add that gender essential thinking is rather outdated. As a man, I consider it my duty to challenge and redefine others' definition of "masculinity". I'm a gym rat, personal trainer, and I love playing football and practicing boxing, but I also adore poetry, singing and dancing in public, and *gasp* talking about my feelings in an upfront manner. Clinging to outdated norms of gender essentialist behavior in pursuit of fitting some sort of cardboard "masculine" category is silly.
"Outdated" implies that masculinity is some fleeting notion defined by society that changes over time like fashion. It isn't. It's behavior thats hard coded in our DNA. Im sorry you think thats silly, but your'e just straight up wrong.
|
On June 01 2013 01:33 Killscreen wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2013 01:24 farvacola wrote:
I'll also add that gender essential thinking is rather outdated. As a man, I consider it my duty to challenge and redefine others' definition of "masculinity". I'm a gym rat, personal trainer, and I love playing football and practicing boxing, but I also adore poetry, singing and dancing in public, and *gasp* talking about my feelings in an upfront manner. Clinging to outdated norms of gender essentialist behavior in pursuit of fitting some sort of cardboard "masculine" category is silly. "Outdated" implies that masculinity is some fleeting notion defined by society that changes over time like fashion. It isn't. It's behavior thats hard coded in our DNA. Im sorry you think thats silly, but your'e just straight up wrong.
Define masculinity, please, and provide genetic arguments to support this definition.
|
While I like the way you think there are way too many things that just... well... work when it comes to women in general. There's a certain point when it comes to dating/seduction where women start summarizing you with "Well, you're completely not my type but.. there is just something about you."
The things included in this "something" is what from my experience just works over and over again with barely any consideration to her preference. What I'm trying to get at are what people consider to be "classic" attraction switches but combined with social intelligence and well calibrated. For example the point where "dominance" isn't about control or guidance anymore but includes more subtle elements like offering the other person a secure space to be themselves and protection from things that are perceived as being outside influence.
Assuming there is some minimum of rapport in the beginning I have yet to meet people who can't be dragged into this bubble where you just forget about the world around you. And that's the position from where escalating the situation towards a sexual direction becomes incredibly easy.
edit: @the sc4k "observing people post", jeesh I'm slow.
|
On June 01 2013 01:33 Killscreen wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2013 01:24 farvacola wrote:
I'll also add that gender essential thinking is rather outdated. As a man, I consider it my duty to challenge and redefine others' definition of "masculinity". I'm a gym rat, personal trainer, and I love playing football and practicing boxing, but I also adore poetry, singing and dancing in public, and *gasp* talking about my feelings in an upfront manner. Clinging to outdated norms of gender essentialist behavior in pursuit of fitting some sort of cardboard "masculine" category is silly. "Outdated" implies that masculinity is some fleeting notion defined by society that changes over time like fashion. It isn't. It's behavior thats hard coded in our DNA. Im sorry you think thats silly, but your'e just straight up wrong.
Balls, penis, anatomical differences, and hormonal balances are hard coded. Expressions of masculinity are not. I'm sorry that you think that's silly, but no amount of studying evolutionary biology is going to tell men how to be men. It's pathetic that you rely on science in such a flimsy manner. And by pathetic, I mean it in the old fashioned sense, as "an appeal to emotion", because that's what your argument boils down to: an emotional attachment to traditional forms of masculine expression flimsily predicated on some sort of nebulous claim of science.
|
On June 01 2013 01:32 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2013 01:29 Killscreen wrote:On June 01 2013 01:19 sc4k wrote:On June 01 2013 01:01 Killscreen wrote:On June 01 2013 00:53 sc4k wrote:On June 01 2013 00:40 Killscreen wrote:
The truth is this; genetically we are all cavemen, and women today respond to the same thing cave women did. Dont think for a second that sexual preference is decided by anything other than genes; it's way too important to be left up to chance. They want a guy who wont put up with their shit, who will spank their ass and pull their hair. Its an ugly truth, and super politically incorrect, but the truth nonetheless.
In my experience this is only applicable for a certain set of women, to which not all belong. One common characteristic women are attracted to seems to be confidence, but beyond that you have to take each woman for their own entity and make your judgements of character, not assume that one way of acting will be the trick. Also there are women who are specifically attracted to unconfident people! I think your attempt to 'simplify' matters by making it out that every woman wants to be with a caveman is unhelpful. Its very hard to discuss dating and women without generalizing. What I wrote wont apply to 100% of all women, but it does apply to most. Like I said, this is determined by genes. Women can have a limited number of children, so they have to be picky with which male they choose to mix their genes with, and they are programmed to pick males with the best genes available. Like all other social mammals, the alpha male is the usual choice. Im sure there are women who are attracted to unconfident men; there are women who are attracted to other women, dead bodies and trees, which technically speaking is a dysfunction ( just like allergy and color blindness are dysfunctions ), since these attractions will produce poor offspring or none at all. Its as true as saying men are attracted to women with hourglass shaped bodies who have symmetric facial features correlated with fertility. There are exceptions to this, but its still true for a vast majority of men. Well I have been observing couples for a long time as I am an experienced 'observer' and I believe that people often go for opposites to 'balance' out their genes. I also believe that men and women can all be placed on a different point in the scale between masculine and feminine. There are male 'brained' individuals who are heterosexual females, and female brained individuals who are heterosexual males. By no means are they in the minority either, I have observed that it seems for every 'manly-brained' male there will be an 'androgenous-brained' male and the opposite is true for females. Purely feminine, pink-everywhere and puppies-on-the-brain women, who appreciate straightforward manliness and ruggedness, are not nearly as common as you might think. The same goes for men who are solely interested in hunting, sex and combat. I have observed that these two 'extremes' are attracted to each other the same way that tall guys and short girls so often get together. It's about balancing the scale. It follows, therefore, that the people whose brains are more centrally orientated will respond better and be more attracted to more moderate behaviour and less extreme 'male' or 'female' characteristics. And I believe this is certainly the case. I would estimate that as many women I know who enjoy the 'caveman' act are turned off completely by it. Im sorry but this is anecdotal and doesn't constitute data. I have studied evolutionary biology and sexual selection at a university, so Im not just basing this on my own personal experiences, its actual science. The fact is that not everyone is able to attract the type of mate they would like and have to settle for the person they are able to attract. Look at it this way; do you see a lot of variation in male and female sex symbols? I think you'll find that most fit my descriptions. You might not think Jonny Depp is very masculine, but he is. Girls are attracted to Justin Bieber, women arent. For someone who studies evolutionary biology and sexual selection, you don't seem to be aware of the notion that genetic determinism is a fringe view that virtually nobody holds to (in the strong sense of it utterly determining in an unambiguous way what people do). To say that women are "programmed" to like particular things is absurd and has no scientific basis.
I disagree. It has a strong scientific basis. For you to say it doesn't, you would need to show how humans are fundamentally different from every other sexually reproducing species on earth. If it isn't genetically determined, why do men find the same physical traits attractive? Or does it only apply to men and not women?
How would you explain sexual jealousy if not for genetically coded behavior? How do you explain our like of sugar and salt if not genetically determined behavior?
Are our dietary preferences genetically coded, but sexual preferences not?
Perhaps there is some weak predisposition for women to prefer certain things over others, but it is a weak predisposition, not a deterministic programming.
If there is only a weak disposition, how do you explain this? Given how important mate selection is, wouldnt you expect it to be a strong disposition? I mean spreading our genes is our primary purpose, why is there only a weak disposition when you would expect a strong one?
|
On June 01 2013 01:36 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2013 01:33 Killscreen wrote:On June 01 2013 01:24 farvacola wrote:
I'll also add that gender essential thinking is rather outdated. As a man, I consider it my duty to challenge and redefine others' definition of "masculinity". I'm a gym rat, personal trainer, and I love playing football and practicing boxing, but I also adore poetry, singing and dancing in public, and *gasp* talking about my feelings in an upfront manner. Clinging to outdated norms of gender essentialist behavior in pursuit of fitting some sort of cardboard "masculine" category is silly. "Outdated" implies that masculinity is some fleeting notion defined by society that changes over time like fashion. It isn't. It's behavior thats hard coded in our DNA. Im sorry you think thats silly, but your'e just straight up wrong. Balls, penis, anatomical differences, and hormonal balances are hard coded. Expressions of masculinity are not. I'm sorry that you think that's silly, but no amount of studying evolutionary biology is going to tell men how to be men. It's pathetic that you rely on science in such a flimsy manner. And by pathetic, I mean it in the old fashioned sense, as "an appeal to emotion", because that's what your argument boils down to: an emotional attachment to traditional forms of masculine expression flimsily predicated on some sort of nebulous claim of science.
I didn't see an argument among all those insults. Im sorry if you were offended. That was not my intent.
|
On June 01 2013 01:43 Killscreen wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2013 01:32 Shiori wrote:On June 01 2013 01:29 Killscreen wrote:On June 01 2013 01:19 sc4k wrote:On June 01 2013 01:01 Killscreen wrote:On June 01 2013 00:53 sc4k wrote:On June 01 2013 00:40 Killscreen wrote:
The truth is this; genetically we are all cavemen, and women today respond to the same thing cave women did. Dont think for a second that sexual preference is decided by anything other than genes; it's way too important to be left up to chance. They want a guy who wont put up with their shit, who will spank their ass and pull their hair. Its an ugly truth, and super politically incorrect, but the truth nonetheless.
In my experience this is only applicable for a certain set of women, to which not all belong. One common characteristic women are attracted to seems to be confidence, but beyond that you have to take each woman for their own entity and make your judgements of character, not assume that one way of acting will be the trick. Also there are women who are specifically attracted to unconfident people! I think your attempt to 'simplify' matters by making it out that every woman wants to be with a caveman is unhelpful. Its very hard to discuss dating and women without generalizing. What I wrote wont apply to 100% of all women, but it does apply to most. Like I said, this is determined by genes. Women can have a limited number of children, so they have to be picky with which male they choose to mix their genes with, and they are programmed to pick males with the best genes available. Like all other social mammals, the alpha male is the usual choice. Im sure there are women who are attracted to unconfident men; there are women who are attracted to other women, dead bodies and trees, which technically speaking is a dysfunction ( just like allergy and color blindness are dysfunctions ), since these attractions will produce poor offspring or none at all. Its as true as saying men are attracted to women with hourglass shaped bodies who have symmetric facial features correlated with fertility. There are exceptions to this, but its still true for a vast majority of men. Well I have been observing couples for a long time as I am an experienced 'observer' and I believe that people often go for opposites to 'balance' out their genes. I also believe that men and women can all be placed on a different point in the scale between masculine and feminine. There are male 'brained' individuals who are heterosexual females, and female brained individuals who are heterosexual males. By no means are they in the minority either, I have observed that it seems for every 'manly-brained' male there will be an 'androgenous-brained' male and the opposite is true for females. Purely feminine, pink-everywhere and puppies-on-the-brain women, who appreciate straightforward manliness and ruggedness, are not nearly as common as you might think. The same goes for men who are solely interested in hunting, sex and combat. I have observed that these two 'extremes' are attracted to each other the same way that tall guys and short girls so often get together. It's about balancing the scale. It follows, therefore, that the people whose brains are more centrally orientated will respond better and be more attracted to more moderate behaviour and less extreme 'male' or 'female' characteristics. And I believe this is certainly the case. I would estimate that as many women I know who enjoy the 'caveman' act are turned off completely by it. Im sorry but this is anecdotal and doesn't constitute data. I have studied evolutionary biology and sexual selection at a university, so Im not just basing this on my own personal experiences, its actual science. The fact is that not everyone is able to attract the type of mate they would like and have to settle for the person they are able to attract. Look at it this way; do you see a lot of variation in male and female sex symbols? I think you'll find that most fit my descriptions. You might not think Jonny Depp is very masculine, but he is. Girls are attracted to Justin Bieber, women arent. For someone who studies evolutionary biology and sexual selection, you don't seem to be aware of the notion that genetic determinism is a fringe view that virtually nobody holds to (in the strong sense of it utterly determining in an unambiguous way what people do). To say that women are "programmed" to like particular things is absurd and has no scientific basis. I disagree. It has a strong scientific basis. For you to say it doesn't, you would need to show how humans are fundamentally different from every other sexually reproducing species on earth. If it isn't genetically determined, why do men find the same physical traits attractive? Or does it only apply to men and not women? How would you explain sexual jealousy if not for genetically coded behavior? How do you explain our like of sugar and salt if not genetically determined behavior? Are our dietary preferences genetically coded, but sexual preferences not? Show nested quote +
Perhaps there is some weak predisposition for women to prefer certain things over others, but it is a weak predisposition, not a deterministic programming.
If there is only a weak disposition, how do you explain this? Given how important mate selection is, wouldnt you expect it to be a strong disposition? I mean spreading our genes is our primary purpose, why is there only a weak disposition when you would expect a strong one?
Did you seriously just ask for a difference between humans and every other sexually reproducing organism on Earth? There's a pretty big one, and it involves the typing of words, the thinking of thoughts, and the agency of self-determined behavior. I'll let you fill in the blanks. Think, for a moment, on how much genetic material and mating opportunity is "wasted" everyday due to humanity's love for masturbation. Millions upon millions of men spill their seed in front of a computer every day, and yet you want us to believe that some sort of genetic compulsion dictates sexual taste? It simply does not follow.
|
Farva, I'm not entirely sure but I think what he's trying to get across is this:
Woman says: "I don't like dominant men." - while this makes it likely that she responds badly to mostly dominant men (aka those who can be defined over that aspect of their personality) it does NOT mean that she will respond badly to dominant male behaviour in general. In this case her still possibly likely positive response to "dominant behaviour" (similar to what I outlined above) is no contradiction to her actual preference in that area and can be considered "hard coded".
|
On June 01 2013 01:47 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2013 01:43 Killscreen wrote:On June 01 2013 01:32 Shiori wrote:On June 01 2013 01:29 Killscreen wrote:On June 01 2013 01:19 sc4k wrote:On June 01 2013 01:01 Killscreen wrote:On June 01 2013 00:53 sc4k wrote:On June 01 2013 00:40 Killscreen wrote:
The truth is this; genetically we are all cavemen, and women today respond to the same thing cave women did. Dont think for a second that sexual preference is decided by anything other than genes; it's way too important to be left up to chance. They want a guy who wont put up with their shit, who will spank their ass and pull their hair. Its an ugly truth, and super politically incorrect, but the truth nonetheless.
In my experience this is only applicable for a certain set of women, to which not all belong. One common characteristic women are attracted to seems to be confidence, but beyond that you have to take each woman for their own entity and make your judgements of character, not assume that one way of acting will be the trick. Also there are women who are specifically attracted to unconfident people! I think your attempt to 'simplify' matters by making it out that every woman wants to be with a caveman is unhelpful. Its very hard to discuss dating and women without generalizing. What I wrote wont apply to 100% of all women, but it does apply to most. Like I said, this is determined by genes. Women can have a limited number of children, so they have to be picky with which male they choose to mix their genes with, and they are programmed to pick males with the best genes available. Like all other social mammals, the alpha male is the usual choice. Im sure there are women who are attracted to unconfident men; there are women who are attracted to other women, dead bodies and trees, which technically speaking is a dysfunction ( just like allergy and color blindness are dysfunctions ), since these attractions will produce poor offspring or none at all. Its as true as saying men are attracted to women with hourglass shaped bodies who have symmetric facial features correlated with fertility. There are exceptions to this, but its still true for a vast majority of men. Well I have been observing couples for a long time as I am an experienced 'observer' and I believe that people often go for opposites to 'balance' out their genes. I also believe that men and women can all be placed on a different point in the scale between masculine and feminine. There are male 'brained' individuals who are heterosexual females, and female brained individuals who are heterosexual males. By no means are they in the minority either, I have observed that it seems for every 'manly-brained' male there will be an 'androgenous-brained' male and the opposite is true for females. Purely feminine, pink-everywhere and puppies-on-the-brain women, who appreciate straightforward manliness and ruggedness, are not nearly as common as you might think. The same goes for men who are solely interested in hunting, sex and combat. I have observed that these two 'extremes' are attracted to each other the same way that tall guys and short girls so often get together. It's about balancing the scale. It follows, therefore, that the people whose brains are more centrally orientated will respond better and be more attracted to more moderate behaviour and less extreme 'male' or 'female' characteristics. And I believe this is certainly the case. I would estimate that as many women I know who enjoy the 'caveman' act are turned off completely by it. Im sorry but this is anecdotal and doesn't constitute data. I have studied evolutionary biology and sexual selection at a university, so Im not just basing this on my own personal experiences, its actual science. The fact is that not everyone is able to attract the type of mate they would like and have to settle for the person they are able to attract. Look at it this way; do you see a lot of variation in male and female sex symbols? I think you'll find that most fit my descriptions. You might not think Jonny Depp is very masculine, but he is. Girls are attracted to Justin Bieber, women arent. For someone who studies evolutionary biology and sexual selection, you don't seem to be aware of the notion that genetic determinism is a fringe view that virtually nobody holds to (in the strong sense of it utterly determining in an unambiguous way what people do). To say that women are "programmed" to like particular things is absurd and has no scientific basis. I disagree. It has a strong scientific basis. For you to say it doesn't, you would need to show how humans are fundamentally different from every other sexually reproducing species on earth. If it isn't genetically determined, why do men find the same physical traits attractive? Or does it only apply to men and not women? How would you explain sexual jealousy if not for genetically coded behavior? How do you explain our like of sugar and salt if not genetically determined behavior? Are our dietary preferences genetically coded, but sexual preferences not?
Perhaps there is some weak predisposition for women to prefer certain things over others, but it is a weak predisposition, not a deterministic programming.
If there is only a weak disposition, how do you explain this? Given how important mate selection is, wouldnt you expect it to be a strong disposition? I mean spreading our genes is our primary purpose, why is there only a weak disposition when you would expect a strong one? Did you seriously just ask for a difference between humans and every other sexually reproducing organism on Earth? There's a pretty big one, and it involves the typing of words, the thinking of thoughts, and the agency of self-determined behavior. I'll let you fill in the blanks.
Yes we have an extreme intellect. That is a difference, but this difference cannot and does not account for the fundamental differences you are claiming. You are saying that all life on earth has genetically coded behavior except humans because we are smart. How does our intellect absolve us from genetically coded behavior? And if we are absolved from this, why do we like salt and sugar, and why do we tend to find the same traits attractive?
I asked you a lot of questions, and I would appreciate answers to them before I respond any more.
edit: sperm is cheap and does not limit the number of offspring men can have. I produce enough sperm to have hundreds of thousands of children. Amount of sperm is not the bottleneck, finding females willing to mate with me is the bottleneck.
|
On June 01 2013 00:29 kyllinghest wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2013 00:25 kaykaykay wrote:On May 31 2013 23:56 Killscreen wrote:On May 31 2013 23:09 kyllinghest wrote:On May 31 2013 22:59 kaykaykay wrote:
So you're suggesting I assume that she's interested.
"Yo, stop it, you have a boyfriend already."
"Well, who said anything about liking you anyway?"
I'm just trying to be nice and keep it cool yo. Maybe I shouldn't have thrown that part in about the hareem building.
But I was genuinely trying to be nice.
I mean cmon, this applies to both genders.
If some dude keeps asking you out, many times, doing all the goofy stuff, the least you could do was try ONE date out yes? Im sure you are a very nice guy, and perhaps it was kind and polite to go on that one date. I still think you should tell her how you feel about her now. I dont want to troll you here man, but "tell her how you feel" is almost always a bad idea regardless of context, and certainly in this one. It would be awkward as fuck. Men don't talk about our feeling unless we absolutely have to, and when we do have to, we lie. I have to agree with him here. Attractive men look like they're always in control and 'coming clean' with your feelings will inevitably lead to her thinking you're weird/creepy. What ever works for you then. Be yourself and some day you will find the right girls for you!
Thanks! You seem like a nice guy yourself too.
I think what we're all trying to say is simply, girls don't like nice guys, they love great guys.
And great guys direct the pace and flow of the relationship.
For example, instead of a " Hey, would you like to have coffee with me today?"
which might seem perfectly alright for a nice guy to say,
a great guy would say something like this "I'm having coffee later, want to join me?"
Might seem similar but there's a subtle difference.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
