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3 billion in cuts to 1.2 billion in revenue is a significant compromise. Also, you seem to know a remarkable amount about
a) How close Boehner was to accepting the deal.
b) How successful he would be at getting the Republican caucus to accept any revenue increases.
Are you psychic? Because you appear to have read the minds of everyone involved.
Am I psychic? No, unlike you, I just read Politico, The Hill, etc., and actually know what is going on. I don't display my ignorance with contemptuous questions about whether someone else is "psychic" when they give me information I disagree with.
Taxes are at the lowest point in a long time. Moreover, cutting government spending isn't the way out of a recession either. That's one of the sucky things about a recession.
"Taxes are at the lowest point in a long time" is a non-sequitir to what I said.
Unfortunately for you, the Fed and the Treasury have used every trick up their sleeve to revive the economy and it has failed, and the tricks they have tried have brought our finances to a shambles and now put the economy in a more risky situation. And now we have no more tricks. Well, we can "print" more money which the Fed will soon do with QE3 but it isn't going to do anything.
So unfortunately, keeping government spending at current levels or raising it is no longer an option. The negative consequences of more debt are larger than the negative consequences of cutting government spending in a recession. A recession that wasn't supposed to happen, according to your side of the aisle.
You failed, stop trying to blame your failures on us, take some responsibility please.
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On August 06 2011 10:37 FarmI3oy wrote:Show nested quote +[B]
My take : Tax levels are at their lowest in years. GM pays exactly 0$ in tax. For some reason, people are suggesting that we reduce taxes on the rich. We need to both increase taxes and cut spending.
You can't tax the rich without hurting the poor that's a fact. Taxing the rich just means less jobs.
Can you supply references for this or did you just hear it on Fox news or something?
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On August 06 2011 10:54 bubblegumbo wrote:
It sucks that when the American government fucks up the rest of the world's economy is affect too, yep fuck Washington.
Japan's still stuck in its 2000s trouble.
Europe has Euro problems.
China's has bubble issues that they're fighting.
None are really US-related and has more to do with fundamental economic issues. The only hope for US bonds is that investors think that the rest of the world is weaker.
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On August 06 2011 10:56 acker wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2011 10:54 bubblegumbo wrote:
It sucks that when the American government fucks up the rest of the world's economy is affect too, yep fuck Washington. Japan's still stuck in its 2000s trouble. Europe has Euro problems. Neither is US-related. The only hope for US bonds is that investors think that the rest of the world is weaker.
I think Japan is sitting at 2.5x GDP and AA-? Despite Japan's economic troubles, investors still think the JPY is relatively stable. I think the rationale is that Japan is less likely to fuck up again. Who knows.
Europe has Greece to worry about.
Horray!
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The obvious to me:
If any government has to keep borrowing money to pay for stuff, eventually the credit runs out. This was going to come eventually unless something changed w/r/t government policies, which doesn't seem likely to happen.
What needs to happen:
Spending and tax income needs to come much closer together. Not being an economist I'm not going to speculate too far, but it seems to me that the US needs to expand the tax base and/or raise tax rates, as well as cutting back spending (no matter your politics, there are all sorts of cuts that could be made: even if we left military AND federal social spending alone the millions in "pork" could make a significant difference). In other words, good credit is based on the idea that if you want/need to you could pay down the debt, so we need to demonstrate that.
Of course, that's kind of vague.
Who needs to go:
Every politician who wastes influence on getting spending for pet (local) projects instead of putting the country first. That's #1.
Anybody trying to push through new spending on ANYTHING when we don't have the money to pay for current projects.
Beyond that, not sure.
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Capital is already deep, deep, deep in hiding thanks to the idiotic Big Government policies of this administration, let's encourage more companies to move out of America, more rich people to move their assets offshore, by raising taxes in a recession!
It's a brilliant religion, Democrats have, where you can tax your way out of a recession.
Okay, whoever wrote this: you obviously have no idea what you're talking about, so let me break it down for you:
First, capital isn't deep in hiding because of big government policies. It's in hiding because our recession caused a credit crunch that's keeping all of our capital in the banking system.
Second, companies move out of America because emerging economies just have unfair economic imbalances. It's natural, and it's not the biggest contributor to our problems.
Third, we haven't raised taxes in a recession. In fact, Obama extended tax breaks in December of 2010 for the Middle Class.
And don't say it was because of the Republicans. The Republicans forced Obama to continue tax extensions on top contributors, which has cost us $1.3 trillion in the last decade, in exchange for the middle class.
You're wrong on almost every account.
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On August 06 2011 10:57 Cambium wrote:
I think Japan is sitting at 2.5x GDP and AA-?
Europe has Greece to worry about.
Horray!
Spreads for Spain, Portugal, and, more recently, Italy have all gone way, way up compared to Germany or France. Ireland's going through strange stuff, too.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/quote?ticker=.ITAGER10:IND
Simply put: contagion is happening. Europe needs serious action fast, or they're screwed even harder than the US is.
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On August 06 2011 10:48 acker wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2011 10:45 Saryph wrote:
On another note, S&P put out a statement saying the reason for the downgrade was because BOTH sides are fighting too much, and that the government wasn't properly look at cutting spending AND raising taxes. Not one, but both.
Yet even after that release, all you see here is one person after another blaming only the republicans, or only the democrats. S&P is paid to be completely politically neutral, they can't show bias or favoritism without losing credibility on the markets. I feel a storm blowing. I'm stepping out before the black hole seizes me.
Don't credit rating agencies have an incentive to give good ratings? Who'll they get business from if they're reputed for handing out the worst ratings, on average?
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On August 06 2011 10:54 DeltaSigmaL wrote:
Wait, you think capital is in hiding because of gov? If it wasn't for gov bailouts, we would be in 2nd depression right now!
We are in 2nd depression right now , how can you solve a debt issue by creating more debt? pure insanity.
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Unless you know the ins and outs of getting out of taxes with an organization or business you stand no chance running one in the states. Trying to run something legit and paying all the taxes the government throws at you currently will bleed you dry and you won't last.
Companies and Business's will just keep moving over seas and jobs will continue to be lost because the government has their fingers in literally every loop hole.
Insurance companies IE the bloodsuckers of this country get away with bending the people of this country over and taking them in the rear.
The whole incident in Wisconsin was a joke. The unions flamed and went to war with the Governor saying that he was going to ruin them (union workers) after the bill passed they found out that the bill actually SAVED money for teachers because they could buy cheaper insurance.
Nothing will ever be the same until people start manning up and start shoveling shit and cleaning toilets otherwise known as doing the jobs they don't want to do because they think they are to good for it. MAN THE FUCK UP! and get a fucking job.
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On August 06 2011 10:59 acker wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2011 10:57 Cambium wrote:
I think Japan is sitting at 2.5x GDP and AA-?
Europe has Greece to worry about.
Horray! Spreads for Spain, Portugal, and, more recently, Italy have all gone way, way up compared to Germany or France. Simply put: contagion is happening. Euro needs serious action fast.
If I may say, Japan's problems are not with debt.
The public itself has very low debt holdings and the country saves more than it borrows.
But everything else is bad. 
On August 06 2011 10:59 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2011 10:54 DeltaSigmaL wrote:
Wait, you think capital is in hiding because of gov? If it wasn't for gov bailouts, we would be in 2nd depression right now! We are in 2nd depression right now , how can you solve a debt issue by creating more debt? pure insanity.
No. We're not in a depression.
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yup we all know that tax cuts and spending cuts in government grows an economy it's why the U.K. has a 0% growth rate.
UK has a 0% growth rate because your austerity policies are a joke :D
If they were serious about fixing their government's spending problems and the country's economic malaise they'd make real reform to the NHS and the general governmental regulatory structure.
Instead the UK has tried to have it both ways which has failed spectacularly, as attempts to show Keynesian works through moderate or large doses of it have failed around the globe spectacularly these last few years.
herp at least that's what people at tea party tell us which has no basis in fact. Way to grow an econ is to spend, improve infrastructure, and educate/train, but what do academics that study this stuff know.
What has no basis in fact is the idea that government spending stimulates an economy after government debt reaches a certain point.
The past few years should have readily disabused even the most foolish of this notion, but we still have people like you who think you can credit card your way out of anything.
Academics who study this stuff don't know much, judging from their abysmal failures the past few years. Here's an idea: when you're trying to be condescending about intellect, it's better when there are no results to be found. Then you can just pontificate your ass off all day. We tried the way "academics who study this stuff" said, it didn't work.
Turns out, banks and governments can't avoid the consequences of grossly distorting the market with debt piled on debt piled on debt, decades and decades of it. Keynes would personally be appalled at how his theories have been altered from "spend in bad times, save in good times" to "spend in good times, spend in bad times." Keynes was never for that. He understood that you can't deficit spend endlessly, if you do it too much in good times you won't be able to do it enough in bad times without doing worse damage.
The situation we are in now.
But all the academics who study this stuff who came after him, I guess they weren't as smart as some people think.
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Okay I'm out of this thread, its already turned into the blame-game.
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On August 06 2011 11:00 Zergneedsfood wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2011 10:59 acker wrote:On August 06 2011 10:57 Cambium wrote:
I think Japan is sitting at 2.5x GDP and AA-?
Europe has Greece to worry about.
Horray! Spreads for Spain, Portugal, and, more recently, Italy have all gone way, way up compared to Germany or France. Simply put: contagion is happening. Euro needs serious action fast. If I may say, Japan's problems are not with debt. The public itself has very low debt holdings and the country saves more than it borrows. But everything else is bad.
I think the recent earthquake might actually be good for Japan, depending on how they handle it...
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The lowering of the rating is just a big big slap in the face to the United Stats Government. People blame republicans because they are the ones that tend to not want taxes raised and want to cut from programs that hurt more of the middle/lower man than the upper man. Hopefully this lowering of the rating will get the people in Washington to get their act together and really work on something to fix the economy that we are in now. We are seeing the effects of a long war, un-industrializing, and bad politics.
Does anyone know if this has affected any other currency much?
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Uh... It's neither frightening nor illuminating.
"Compromising to get things done" is essentially a euphemism for "forever expanding government." Getting things done of course means expanding government, almost by definition, which is something many republicans oppose.
I'm against compromise, and I'm certainly not a republican. I'm in favor of gridlock, of more NOT getting done. Whenever republicans and democrats "compromise," it usually means the American people are getting screwed, and the debt and the deficit are expanding.
There is a reason our constitution established 3 competing branches of government, that are meant to check and balance each other... it was to ensure that the government didn't GET TOO MUCH DONE!
When people say this, it makes no sense. Compromising doesn't always mean expanding the government. How 'bout the latest compromise, where we avoided defaulting, or did you want us to be in an infinite gridlock and default? You think that would be good for the country? (hint: it would not be good).
3 branches were created to ensure each branch had limited power. Checks and balances ensure liberty suppossedly. The founding fathers did not create the branches thinking "Oh, we need a way to make our country inefficient".
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On August 06 2011 11:00 Zergneedsfood wrote:If I may say, Japan's problems are not with debt. The public itself has very low debt holdings and the country saves more than it borrows. But everything else is bad.
Well, bad for Europe. Good the the United States. Interest rates are at record lows because US debt has become relatively safer due to turmoil in the rest of the civilized world.
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I sure hope this is a massive wake up call for US politicians. They arent just screwing around with the lives of Americans, but the entire world's economy is at stake here. The US politicians need to take responsibility for the very important role they have in our world. Too bad the American political system is so fucked up, or maybe some decent people could get voted in.
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For the inevitable "tax the rich" discussion:
Income taxes are probably as high as they should be already. After payroll, social security, medicare, FICA, and state/federal income taxes, someone making $100k to $300k is going to send about 50% of their income to the government in some way. And unless you're a doctor, you probably don't make over $300k a year from paychecks alone.
Most of the really rich get their income from capital gains. If you hold an asset for over a year, any returns on it are taxed at 15%. (20% in 2013) But the big difference is that you aren't getting a paycheck, so none of the normal payroll taxes apply.
As a result, as you move from 6 to 7 figures a year, you actually pay less in taxes. Good article about it here: http://www.freakonomics.com/2008/05/01/taxes-warren-buffett-and-paying-my-fair-share/
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On August 06 2011 11:00 DeepElemBlues wrote:Show nested quote +yup we all know that tax cuts and spending cuts in government grows an economy it's why the U.K. has a 0% growth rate. UK has a 0% growth rate because your austerity policies are a joke :D If they were serious about fixing their government's spending problems and the country's economic malaise they'd make real reform to the NHS and the general governmental regulatory structure. Instead the UK has tried to have it both ways which has failed spectacularly, as attempts to show Keynesian works through moderate or large doses of it have failed around the globe spectacularly these last few years. Show nested quote +herp at least that's what people at tea party tell us which has no basis in fact. Way to grow an econ is to spend, improve infrastructure, and educate/train, but what do academics that study this stuff know. What has no basis in fact is the idea that government spending stimulates an economy after government debt reaches a certain point. The past few years should have readily disabused even the most foolish of this notion, but we still have people like you who think you can credit card your way out of anything.
I'm sure you've studied economics, or something of the sort before. But how do you make such conclusive claims about such complex systems? I've studied economics for the last 3 years and I will not dare to make scientific and conclusive claims such as these. What is your evidence and/or reasoning for:
- Keynesianism .. failed in moderate to large doses.
- UK has 0% growth because of austerity policies.
- Government debt doesn't stimulate economy after debt reaches a certain point. (of course you could argue here that you could have a few thousand % debt and you can't argue that the economy will continue to be "stimulated" in a positive way, but if you argue this you must know that your statement was flawed as it's so hard to interpret).
- "The past few years should have readily disabused even the most foolish of this notion, but we still have people like you who think you can credit card your way out of anything." - Why?
Don't say "we've tried these things and we're still fucked", as you're just now making the claim that we wouldn't have been worse off without these policies which requires just as much evidence to support.
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EPT
