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Regaring robots doing a lot of the work that would just be awesome. Not saying that it would happen anytime soon but it might in a long time from now.
So what if that means less work for people? With the resources at hand from kickass robots it's not even necessary for people to work in order to survive.
If someone sleeping all day will make as much as anyone else; if you can afford anything anywhere what will possibly motivate people to achieve wealth and greatness ?
I think there are better things to strive for than "wealth and greatness". In a society where robots could just fix everything and the energy was basically free wealth would be meaningless, so people could spend their time educating themselves or just sit around doing nothing if that makes them happy, which it probably won't. Machines making our lives easier is a big reason behind todays living standards (at least in the west..) after the industrial revolution.
Anyway, that's the optimistic outlook =) Of course humans would still be assholes, and fight over robot control or whatever, possibly getting depressed about having too much freedom. Whatever the case it wouldn't be the technology and change that is to blame but the human response to it.
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On July 27 2011 20:45 decemberTV wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2011 20:19 MiraMax wrote:On July 27 2011 19:37 decemberTV wrote:On July 27 2011 13:33 Ruthless wrote:On July 27 2011 08:28 decemberTV wrote:On July 27 2011 08:02 shell wrote:
This can't be true since they are still alive ;D
but I hope it's true of course! Thats a very strong point you make.  "Free Energy" sounds very very scary though, doesn;t it ? At least in the short term it would be economic devastation. Not only on the energy markets; everywhere ! If you have free energy, you can exploit anything, indefinitely, you can mine anything, you can grow and, transform and build anything for free. Quickly all monetary units will simply devalue over night; If you no longer need to work 8 hours a day to receive monetary units what will 7 billion people do with their time ? 14 billion ? 28 billion in a few decades ? Wealth will mean nothing still we have a number of jobs that require the practitioner to undertake massive education and preparation. If someone sleeping all day will make as much as anyone else; if you can afford anything anywhere what will possibly motivate people to achieve wealth and greatness ? Already we see that a lot of people enjoying "too much freedom" grow more and more stupid each day. Each generation seems to be more stupid than the previous one in all western countries. My simple question is. How stupid will the 28 billion retards be in 2050 if this turns out to be true ?!?!? Hard to get much stupider than this post haha. Made me laugh. Apparently free energy = free work? It might be able to put the manual laborer out of a job, but until Computers are able to "think" free energy doesnt mean theres no value to human's thinking. There are other costs besides the energy required to make something happen lol. Cant make a house with just energy. Need materials. You are aware that computers in this very moment are taking off, flying and landing 70% of the planes in the world are you not ? At this point the pilots are mere supervisors for the whole process. Robots are even performing surgery. Robots don't need to "THINK" they just need to do 1 task really really well because unlike us they can be even more specialized. And that the vast majority of the german car building industry is practically robotized ? The only reason robots are not used everywhere is the cost of setting them up and running them which in most countries is much higher than the cheap labour force (look at India / China / and 90% of the world). Given that when electricity is available hidrogen is practically infinite, nickel is fairily common on the earth as it was deposited during "late bombardment" by asteroids after the earth's crust had cooled and even so its used in small quantities in the process, or so they say. Given that computers already do anything that humans can do 10 times better while never taking breaks and that computing power doubles every 16 months i think your post is the stupid one. Robots could mine ore, process, assemble and produce the final product cheaper safer and faster than humans as long as energy would be, for the most part, free. I can't believe you're actually saying that today's robots and computers could not mine, process the materials and build a house on their own once programmed to do so. I did quite some consulting in the German automobile industry and can assure you that the manufacturing is far from being completely robotized. Volkswagen, for instance, employs more than 400.000 people world-wide many of which work in production (even though manual labor is mainly important in final assembly, not in body and paint shops anymore). Even with free energy available, robots still have several severe disadvantages when compared to humans especially with regard to flexibility. It is further not energy cost which is a deterrent for robotic labour but rather the high investment cost in development (robots don't develop robots ... yet). "Free" (or really cheap) energy would not lead to a "collapse of the economy", but rather on the contrary to an immense increase in productivity and thus wealth. Unfortunately, the past track record of cold fusion claims has not been positive (and no, big oil was not responsible for that). That being said, the Rossi E-cat story seems quite unique in some respects and Italy is traditionally known as a country where also respected physicists work on cold fusion to some extent. It does seem too good to be true, but let's wait until October. German labour force is expensive. German car companies have 2 options either make more robots or move shop to a developing country where labour is more cheap. The fact that Volkswagen employs 400.000 world-wide means nothing because only in Germany or Japan having robots do the work makes sense economically at all. Think about it like this, in just a few decades agriculture in the western world went from manual labour of peasants and farmers who worked the field with their own hands or with horses to using tractors and harvesters that practically decimated the workforce needed so just a single "driver" is needed. By placing markers on the field the driver of the tractor or harvester can be replaced completely by a computer who can harvest 24 hours a day and requires far less energy and costs (if said energy is nearly free). And to answer to your reply on the economical issue. At the moment everyone in the world owns everyone else a great deal of monetary units which are more or less stable even though their value fluctuates. The current economic system is one based on inflation; luckily inflation in the US / Western Countries / Japan is halted by the always growing markets in the developing world. When the cost of everything goes down, raw materials, precious metals (since it would be so much cheaper to mine everything when you have robots running on cost free electricity) the value of monetary units will collapse in the short term as everything would be insanely cheap. This would very much anger countries like China for example who have invested a great deal in the US and are owed a great deal of money. Why ? Because suddenly they will be owed far less then what they gave to begin with. Why do you think Russia and China are so insanely angry with the US government for printing so much money ? : ] Show nested quote +On July 27 2011 20:24 Hyulik wrote:
It sounds far too good to be true. Decentralized clean Energy for <1€Cent would allow us to stop the climate change within a decade or so. We are at about 24.000$/t Nickel right now, so if you really believe this will work out, there is something to invest in.
I really don't see how cheap energy damages an economy. The industry fears high energy prices, why would it fear low ones as well? Gathering and mining ressources would not change much, the tertiary sector would probably get better air conditioning and that's about it. We still need oil for chemicals and cars for years to come. Building Houses is still being done manually, mining is far too complex to be done automatically etc.Have you ever seen how clumsy robots move? We can't even make programs that effectively recognize wether a tank is friend or foe, how would a computer know where to mine, how to mine and what to mine? That's like sending in a five year old on a quest of finding shiny stuff in a dungeon.
edit typo Very low energy prices almost over night will result in everything from raw materials to finished products become very cheap. Currencies will plummet and the "world debt system" would collapse along with them. Also, countries hold their national reserves in either US dollars or gold. When the US goes onwards and prints insane amounts of new moneys there's inflation in the US, the value of the dollar goes down and everything that the countries in the world hold in their national reserves devalues. Unfortunately nobody can stop the US from printing money. Putin can rage about it but thats all he can do.
What makes you so sure that the US is going to be the only country with access to the technology. What your saying approaches the situation from the point where only the US currency would experience inflation due to the lowered energy costs.
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On July 27 2011 21:24 Ravencruiser wrote:
Sigh, I wasn't even going to click on the thread but somehow did anyway.
Let's put it this way:
For those of you still trying to argue "it might be possible", I pity you.
The exact same thing, and I mean exactly the same, has happened at least a few hundred times before this. No independent review entities/methods allowed, zero information on mechanism of action, sets a future "revealing date" (while reaping the benefits of all the hype/publicity before the big blow-out), etc.
Every time, the scam has some sort of catch that tries to make itself unique; and yet in every case, a scam is still a scam.
ya i think i'll believe you instead of the Nobel in Physics who says it is possible.
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Hmmmm this is all very interesting. But for now it's impossible for us to really 100% know if this is real or just a scam. Just wake me up when September ends.
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It's like the x-files - "I want to believe". But I don't. Hey, if I'm proved wrong that'll be great because the world gets cheap and plentiful energy!
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On July 27 2011 21:24 Ravencruiser wrote:
Sigh, I wasn't even going to click on the thread but somehow did anyway.
Let's put it this way:
For those of you still trying to argue "it might be possible", I pity you.
The exact same thing, and I mean exactly the same, has happened at least a few hundred times before this. No independent review entities/methods allowed, zero information on mechanism of action, sets a future "revealing date" (while reaping the benefits of all the hype/publicity before the big blow-out), etc.
Every time, the scam has some sort of catch that tries to make itself unique; and yet in every case, a scam is still a scam.
On July 27 2011 20:48 Probe1 wrote:
For fucks sake if you want to prove it's real just allow independent verification without oversight instead of making a 50+ page document eliminating ways it could be a scam.
I don't want to be this negative.. wait, yes I do. There are ample procedures for being taken seriously. I suggest they try one of them. (Hint: That does not include inviting people over for a day pass to look at it.)
I am myself a great skeptic, especially when the discussion is about scientific objects (just watch my previous posts on other threads). However, since i live in Italy, I had been observing this story for long time, and I came to the conclusion that there are great possibilities that the whole thing is real. Why? Because:
1) As said before (maybe) there is an energy output much greater than te energy put in the device to make it work, and there are no ways to produce such a great amount of energy with other reactions than nuclear reactions.
2) There is a power plant in production in Greece.
3) Rossi and Forcardi put their faces in that and, especially Focardi, have a reputation, that will be destroyed if the whole story is a fake. So no purpose of lying.
4) Many Scientist, from different nations (so not possibly connected by shared interests) are convinced that this "e-cat" can work: http://www.nyteknik.se/nyheter/energi_miljo/energi/article3144827.ece
http://www.queryonline.it/ this site, in italian, followed the evolution of the whole story, since almost the beginning. It is the main media of CICAP, a very skeptical Italian organization composed by scientists, journalists etc. (it was very skeptical about the reactor at the beginning, but gradually they changed their mind, keeping a cautious approach at least since a full demonstration end explanation of the phenomena will be given).
5) Rossi is actually in contact with Bologna University in order to organize this demonstration.
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Hmm, I'm a sceptic by heart, even though I want this to work, I just can't believe it (yet).
Kind of reminds me of this
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On July 27 2011 08:28 decemberTV wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2011 08:02 shell wrote:
This can't be true since they are still alive ;D
but I hope it's true of course! Thats a very strong point you make. "Free Energy" sounds very very scary though, doesn;t it ? At least in the short term it would be economic devastation. Not only on the energy markets; everywhere ! If you have free energy, you can exploit anything, indefinitely, you can mine anything, you can grow and, transform and build anything for free. Quickly all monetary units will simply devalue over night; If you no longer need to work 8 hours a day to receive monetary units what will 7 billion people do with their time ? 14 billion ? 28 billion in a few decades ? Wealth will mean nothing still we have a number of jobs that require the practitioner to undertake massive education and preparation. If someone sleeping all day will make as much as anyone else; if you can afford anything anywhere what will possibly motivate people to achieve wealth and greatness ? Already we see that a lot of people enjoying "too much freedom" grow more and more stupid each day. Each generation seems to be more stupid than the previous one in all western countries. My simple question is. How stupid will the 28 billion retards be in 2050 if this turns out to be true ?!?!?
You are incredibly stupid.
The energy isn't literally free. In what way does cheaper energy equate with worldwide uselessness? Do you really think that in some way if energy became cheaper we wouldn't need groceries or water or journalists or hospitals?
All of those would require the same amount of working as they do now.
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Everyone being sure it's a scam need to explain me what is the mobile ?
2 scientist working for 20 years on an experiment, going public and inviting top physicians in this field.
If i was about to do a very elaborate scam, I will try to avoid the part where all the public attention is focused on me. If he's a scammer, what's the point of it ? How can he become richer or more popular with this scam that's being studied right now ?
Rossi is smart, what does he have to gain for such a scam ?
What make more sense ? 2 scientists making a discovery or 2 smart guys that want to be unfamous and hated all over the world for a volontary delusive scam ?
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On July 27 2011 20:35 Probe1 wrote:
What's there to discuss about this? If it can be independently verified outside of the purview and supervision of the inventors then we have a very impressive new power source.
If not then it's another free energy scam. I'll get back to you in six months when there's actually something verifiable.
Maybe because they invested all of their own money, and want a patent first before the Americans/Chinese copy the product?
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On July 28 2011 07:32 s.a.y wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2011 20:35 Probe1 wrote:
What's there to discuss about this? If it can be independently verified outside of the purview and supervision of the inventors then we have a very impressive new power source.
If not then it's another free energy scam. I'll get back to you in six months when there's actually something verifiable. Maybe because they invested all of their own money, and want a patent first before the Americans/Chinese copy the product?
Or indeed before someone else makes a similar discovery. There are various other LENR-type projects going on at the moment, with promising results.
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On July 27 2011 23:58 rubio91 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2011 21:24 Ravencruiser wrote:
Sigh, I wasn't even going to click on the thread but somehow did anyway.
Let's put it this way:
For those of you still trying to argue "it might be possible", I pity you.
The exact same thing, and I mean exactly the same, has happened at least a few hundred times before this. No independent review entities/methods allowed, zero information on mechanism of action, sets a future "revealing date" (while reaping the benefits of all the hype/publicity before the big blow-out), etc.
Every time, the scam has some sort of catch that tries to make itself unique; and yet in every case, a scam is still a scam. Show nested quote +On July 27 2011 20:48 Probe1 wrote:
For fucks sake if you want to prove it's real just allow independent verification without oversight instead of making a 50+ page document eliminating ways it could be a scam.
I don't want to be this negative.. wait, yes I do. There are ample procedures for being taken seriously. I suggest they try one of them. (Hint: That does not include inviting people over for a day pass to look at it.) I am myself a great skeptic, especially when the discussion is about scientific objects (just watch my previous posts on other threads). However, since i live in Italy, I had been observing this story for long time, and I came to the conclusion that there are great possibilities that the whole thing is real. Why? Because: 1) As said before (maybe) there is an energy output much greater than te energy put in the device to make it work, and there are no ways to produce such a great amount of energy with other reactions than nuclear reactions. 2) There is a power plant in production in Greece. 3) Rossi and Forcardi put their faces in that and, especially Focardi, have a reputation, that will be destroyed if the whole story is a fake. So no purpose of lying. 4) Many Scientist, from different nations (so not possibly connected by shared interests) are convinced that this "e-cat" can work: http://www.nyteknik.se/nyheter/energi_miljo/energi/article3144827.ecehttp://www.queryonline.it/ this site, in italian, followed the evolution of the whole story, since almost the beginning. It is the main media of CICAP, a very skeptical Italian organization composed by scientists, journalists etc. (it was very skeptical about the reactor at the beginning, but gradually they changed their mind, keeping a cautious approach at least since a full demonstration end explanation of the phenomena will be given). 5) Rossi is actually in contact with Bologna University in order to organize this demonstration.
Literally none of these matter. You either show it works on an economic scale or you explain the mechanism in detail. They should quit wasting everyone's time, and come back when they have done either of the two.
Unless they somehow found a way to create energy from bored scientists and gullible journalists I really don't see the point of their demonstrations.
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It's kind of sad how many people are so adamant that no matter how much evidence there is, something still isn't true. It's like the westborough baptist church was invited and someone told them these scientists were homosexual
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That interview with the Swedish scientists really got my hopes up I have to say. My first assumption was just that it's another scam but I've heard about what they call the "Swedish Sceptic Society" before and it's interesting that they managed to win over these guys.
So if it is a scam it's seems to be a really good one, like a magic trick that even skeptic scientists can't figure out how it's done. Looks like there is some cause for at least a cautious optimism about this project. It would be so nice if there was something that could compete with fossil fuels.
Edit. Both the scientists interviewed were kind of positive about the whole idea to begin with though. I expected them to be more.. skeptic.
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On July 28 2011 08:30 Eknoid4 wrote:
It's kind of sad how many people are so adamant that no matter how much evidence there is, something still isn't true. It's like the westborough baptist church was invited and someone told them these scientists were homosexual
I think its just a reservation of judgement, there's no harm in that. If it turns out to be true, its not as if these people will be adamant that it still doesn't work.
We'll see in october.
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On July 28 2011 09:14 Vore210 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 08:30 Eknoid4 wrote:
It's kind of sad how many people are so adamant that no matter how much evidence there is, something still isn't true. It's like the westborough baptist church was invited and someone told them these scientists were homosexual I think its just a reservation of judgement, there's no harm in that. If it turns out to be true, its not as if these people will be adamant that it still doesn't work. We'll see in october.
Reservation of judgement doesn't say things like "no matter what, this isn't real"
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On July 27 2011 16:09 Nightfall.589 wrote:
Why are we discussing commercial implications of something that, as is inevitably the case with cold fusion, a hoax?
May as well be discussing the commercial implications of immortality magnets, or time travel.
I won't call that just a reservation of judgement; there have been multiple posts of people that are SURE that it's a hoax. Keeping the judgement for later is perfectly fine, but claiming IT'S FAKE when you actually have no more clue than anyone else is kinda.... meh...
Cold fusion has always been a topic that had to be shut down. For what reason ? we'll see
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On July 27 2011 19:37 decemberTV wrote:
I can't believe you're actually saying that today's robots and computers could not mine, process the materials and build a house on their own once programmed to do so.
I also hear that, by the year 2000, each of us will own a flying car.
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On July 28 2011 09:49 Gegenschein wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2011 19:37 decemberTV wrote:
I can't believe you're actually saying that today's robots and computers could not mine, process the materials and build a house on their own once programmed to do so. I also hear that, by the year 2000, each of us will own a flying car.
I mean he has a point that it would be possible to do so, it just would not be efficient at all. It would require so much specialized, "one time" programming, and maintenance that it would be completely pointless to do it that way when migrant labor costs 10$ an hour. It would take more engineering hours per house to do it, then it would take labor hours to build it, but it would not be impossible as a large scale engineering feat. It simply would not be "feasible."
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The fact is that even though energy/fuel production represents a major part of our current economy, it represents but a very small portion of the work actually done by human beings.
"Free" energy would certainly change a lot of things, but I don't see it changing our society into a "society of leisure" (which humans have fantasize about since the industrial revolution). In fact, electricity right now is cheap enough that if they were to replace McDonald's employees by machines, they would have already done it.
The Internet is already revolutionizing our world. Robot fantasies are so 1950.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://s3.amazonaws.com/data.tumblr.com/tumblr_lgy0hbMUzs1qe2mq3o1_1280.png?AWSAccessKeyId=AKIAJ6IHWSU3BX3X7X3Q&Expires=1311876242&Signature=qjXufDxhhs6j2LXxPhLVk7aaw8Y%3D)
