EPTThe US debt (proper debate) - Page 16
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nukeazerg
United States168 Posts
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Nightfall.589
Canada766 Posts
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dogabutila
United States1437 Posts
77% of america think there should be a balanced budget amendment. It's time to stop spending more then we have. | ||
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iPlaY.NettleS
Australia4329 Posts
On July 26 2011 14:46 Nightfall.589 wrote: Or stop the wars, and raise taxes on the rich by a few percentage points. Hell, close the offshore loopholes, and cut corporate taxes while you're at it. Compensate with increased personal income taxes. Funny how according to you, the only sane solution, is to have the lower classes exclusively bear the burden of reducing debt. (While the wealth gap grows and grows...) The mega rich avoid taxes anyway , besides i don't see how getting rid of the federal reserve to help reduce the debt burden has anything to do with screwing the lower classes.Getting rid of unaffordable socialist programs was only a small part of my suggestions. | ||
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Nightfall.589
Canada766 Posts
Only because your tax code's got so many holes, a silt could hold more water. If the IRS had the tools to have at them, they'd pay. , besides i don't see how getting rid of the federal reserve to help reduce the debt burden has anything to do with screwing the lower classes. Getting rid of the federal reserve carries plenty of other problems. (And going back to gold-backed currency would be one of the saddest non-solutions imaginable) Getting rid of unaffordable socialist programs was only a small part of my suggestions. Yet, tax reforms/increases weren't any part of your suggestions. | ||
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domovoi
United States1478 Posts
On July 26 2011 15:31 Nightfall.589 wrote: Only because your tax code's got so many holes, a silt could hold more water. If the IRS had the tools to have at them, they'd pay. I don't think he's American, but this is a myth anyway. There aren't any big tax holes because of the AMT. There's of course abuse here and there (and people do get caught), but the top 1% pays for 40% of the U.S.'s taxes, and that's a lot higher than it was two decades ago. The U.S., in fact, has a much more progressive taxation structure than pretty much all other European countries (thanks mostly to their VAT). It's the distribution of services that's not so progressive. | ||
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Expurgate
United States208 Posts
On July 26 2011 10:08 DeepElemBlues wrote: That image is hilarious, $200-$300 billion a year is a joke to blame the skyrocketing debt on. Meanwhile the yearly deficit is approaching $2 trillion dollars. The wars are 10% or less of that cost. And the wars have been a decreasing in spending amount for several years now, at least Iraq. George Bush at one point in 2007 had deficit spending down to about $150 billion a month. Anytime you hear or read someone ranting about how it's military spending that is a huge problem, you can safely assume that they do not know what they are talking about. Including Secretary Gates. It's time to stop acting like a few hundred billion and a few trillion are comparable; they are not. Adding $300 billion to the debt every year, no one cares. The US can do that until doomsday without trouble. Adding 1.5-2 trillion a year? No. Sorry. Time for people to acknowledge that even with the wars about 2/3 of yearly government spending is entitlements and less than 10% on "the wars," and another 20% or so on maintaining the military in general, hmm I wonder what I should be focusing on to cut, the things I spend over 60% of my spending on, or the things I spend 20% of it on, or the things I spend 10% of it on. I wonder, what should be my main focus. Maybe someone can help me out, because I keep reading people whine about the wars and the military, I don't understand how going from 1.6 trillion yearly deficits to 1.4 or 1.3 is going to be much of a difference. It may be ideologically convenient to complain about military spending but it does nothing to address the issue of the US debt. It's just another excuse for people who are against military spending for non-fiscal reasons to trot out their tired old gut the military arguments. I'm all for not expanding combat to a new country every six months or so like Obama has been doing, but I am not for mindlessly cutting military spending just because some people say we "have to" when there are about ten other items that should be much much much higher priority to cut. This is a misrepresentation of what the actual image claims; also, if you looked at the quote you'd see I was addressing a poster who claimed that operational expenses for the military don't make a difference. In 2008, for example, non-budgeted expenses, which include operational costs of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, made up more than 30% of the total federal budget deficit for that year. Also, as I said in my post: EDIT2: This shouldn't be construed as suggesting that the defense budget itself can be cut adequately, there need to be broad reforms across the board for government spending to regain sustainability. Please don't be so rabid in your posts. Let's keep this discussion productive. | ||
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Nightfall.589
Canada766 Posts
On July 26 2011 16:01 domovoi wrote: I don't think he's American, but this is a myth anyway. There aren't any big tax holes because of the AMT. There's of course abuse here and there (and people do get caught), but the top 1% pays for 40% of the U.S.'s taxes, and that's a lot higher than it was two decades ago. The U.S., in fact, has a much more progressive taxation structure than pretty much all other European countries (thanks mostly to their VAT). It's the distribution of services that's not so progressive. Income taxes - they pay. However, there are plenty of loopholes in the corporate tax code. Especially when it comes to money being hidden in offshore fully-owned subsidiaries. | ||
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NotSupporting
Sweden1998 Posts
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TheDraken
United States640 Posts
On July 26 2011 17:54 NotSupporting wrote: Americans simply need to realize that they are living way over what they can manage. The superpower that was USA will be no more and it's time to save whatever you can instead of crashing the country completely while politicians seem more interested in their own positions. There should be a huge tax increase for wealthy people. The only Americans that realize how to manage their finances and not spend themselves into bankruptcy are the wealthy. The majority of the upper class have taken the time to educate themselves, stay out of "enjoy now pay later" schemes, read the fine print, and invest their money in an intelligent manner. Nothing other people can't do themselves. As people have mentioned above, the US tax code already has one of the most dramatic gradients, and about half of Americans don't even pay income taxes. Meanwhile the top 1% pays more taxes to the government than the bottom 95% combined. It's ridiculous that there are people who don't pay a penny to the government demanding more tax increases for other people so they can continue to enjoy benefits they don't pay for. It's disgusting, and frankly I've become so disillusioned with the laziness of the lower and middle classes that I couldn't give any less of a shit if this economy tanks into another severe depression. My assets have all been paid for. I live within my means. My bank account is stashed with money that was earned through years of six day work weeks and ten hour days, supported by a college education paid for retroactively with my own money. None of that was voodoo magic, and when people cry that the government doesn't coddle their ass, I wait for the day when the government can no longer feed them on a silver spoon. It's ridiculous that there are high school dropouts living with the delusion that healthcare, comfortable retirement, and education are all birthrights. No human is born with the promise that someone else is obligated to keep them alive. They are luxuries earned through years of labor during a person's middle years. As we say in economics, there's no such thing as a free lunch. The majority of Americans have elected scheming yahoos into government by believing they can get everything for nothing, and that a hard working minority of citizens will pay for the laziness of a majority. The 1929 depression was good for America in that it created a generation of people who knew the value of wise spending and hard work. Let the economy tank and let the depression/revolution/armageddon happen. Time for people to man the fuck up. | ||
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Casta
Denmark234 Posts
On July 26 2011 18:42 TheDraken wrote: ... It's ridiculous that there are high school dropouts living with the delusion that healthcare, comfortable retirement, and education are all birthrights. No human is born with the promise that someone else is obligated to keep them alive. They are luxuries earned through years of labor during a person's middle years. As we say in economics, there's no such thing as a free lunch. ... I live in a country where healthcare, comfortable retirement and education is something granted by the state to every citizen. I like the perspective that everyone can become anything if they got the brains and not only the ones with the rich parents and a thick wallet. Also if you are poor and suffer a terrible accident you will still get patched up and get ready to contribute to society. Of course some are taking advantage of the system, but the overall gain is greater if such a thing would be measured imo. I understand that not having these safety nets guaranteed sparks a lot of people to work harder, but the ones not capable of the pressure just gets left behind and will eventually become unused potential or even criminals in a modern society. | ||
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Reyis
Pitcairn287 Posts
Some countries that are cooperating with USA are already making lots of work to downgrade their own national currency to balance the market and mutually benefiting. Turkey is a huge example since they are one of the main allies with USA militarily, we can see that they have more connections than just military. Last couple of days Turkish money against US Dollar just made a huge increase from 1.60 TL / 1 USD to aprox 2 TL / 1 USD. There are some more countries joining the band rather silently, behind the media coverage same as Turkey. | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10700 Posts
10 years ago: 1$ = CHF ~1.70 (IIRC). Today: 1$ = CHF 0.80. Yeah, not falling at all... The thing is, the $ is not "suddenly" falling (due to the crisis the Franc also got stronger and stronger in the last weeks/months), it's a long term trend, nothing recent. The Euro compared to the Franc still looks much more stable (last time i checked, it also lost, but not by that margin...). | ||
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BlackFlag
499 Posts
On July 26 2011 19:16 Casta wrote: I want to comment on a little of your post. I live in a country where healthcare, comfortable retirement and education is something granted by the state to every citizen. I like the perspective that everyone can become anything if they got the brains and not only the ones with the rich parents and a thick wallet. Also if you are poor and suffer a terrible accident you will still get patched up and get ready to contribute to society. Of course some are taking advantage of the system, but the overall gain is greater if such a thing would be measured imo. I understand that not having these safety nets guaranteed sparks a lot of people to work harder, but the ones not capable of the pressure just gets left behind and will eventually become unused potential or even criminals in a modern society. It is a human right. And before Industrialization these "services" were guaranteed by "the family" (which is much bigger than the core family.) With Industrialization these large families dissolved and the state had to implent social programs who overtook the social role "family" had before Industrialization. It's the duty of a country to guarantee welfare for everyone. If it doesn't, you can go right back in the 19th century and look how nice urban life was for the broad masses. But that's propably cool for "economists" because wage-slaves are good for "the economy" (What an abstract term, because "the economy" is everyone. It's you, me, my friends and that drug dealer across the street. "The economy" isn't something that's cut off from the rest of society. Society is build on "the economy" and vice versa.) | ||
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NotSupporting
Sweden1998 Posts
On July 26 2011 19:16 Casta wrote: I want to comment on a little of your post. I live in a country where healthcare, comfortable retirement and education is something granted by the state to every citizen. I like the perspective that everyone can become anything if they got the brains and not only the ones with the rich parents and a thick wallet. Also if you are poor and suffer a terrible accident you will still get patched up and get ready to contribute to society. Of course some are taking advantage of the system, but the overall gain is greater if such a thing would be measured imo. I understand that not having these safety nets guaranteed sparks a lot of people to work harder, but the ones not capable of the pressure just gets left behind and will eventually become unused potential or even criminals in a modern society. My old English teacher who was American but moved to Sweden described this in a great way. In Sweden (also Scandinavia) everyone has the chance to go far but if you happen to fail there will always be a safety-net for you to fall on. In America some people have the chance to go even further but if you happen to fail you will fall much deeper and hope that someone catches you. In other words; Sweden is safer. The risk is much lower but at the same time the reward might not be as big. This does not mean however that you cannot become rich in Scandinavia, trust me you can. However to be come insanely rich like some people in America is really hard. | ||
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Traeon
Austria366 Posts
On July 26 2011 18:42 TheDraken wrote: The only Americans that realize how to manage their finances and not spend themselves into bankruptcy are the wealthy. The majority of the upper class have taken the time to educate themselves, stay out of "enjoy now pay later" schemes, read the fine print, and invest their money in an intelligent manner. Nothing other people can't do themselves. Uh, how about "the wealthy are heavily favored to gain even more wealth in the current system"? Despite (or probably because of) the economical crisis, the number of millionaires has been increasing in affected countries. | ||
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Gamegene
United States8308 Posts
In fact, I don't even hate the politicians, I hate the dumb atmosphere of the American public who think that all time historic low Bush tax rates can be maintained when we've had 2 wars (possibly 3 now with the supposedly "secret" war in Yemen). It's a really dumb argument when you say that you are fiscally conservative, that you "care" about the national debt, yet can't bear to tax the more well off (so you can just make the balance by cutting funds to entitlement programs). Republicans are trying to cater to the fucking stupid American public by complaining that "the debt needs to be solved NOW!111" and that "it's going to kill jobs" (not necessarily, it surely will if the government collapses financially and/or public sector jobs are cut), all while promising no tax hikes. Right now they're playing political chicken with Obama and his veto signature, but they can't afford to go for a bipartisan (and fucking sane) agreement on the debt because they were given congress through the tea party (fucking insane rightwingers). Yet at the same time they can't allow the government to collapse from the debt otherwise BOTH parties lose (and possibly the entire idea that government can work). It's frustrating as hell- You can't have your cake and eat it too, dimwits! | ||
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sunprince
United States2258 Posts
On July 26 2011 17:54 NotSupporting wrote: There should be a huge tax increase for wealthy people. As mentioned by others in this thread, wealthy Americans do foot a large percenage of America's tax bills (top 1% pays 40% of taxes). Increasing this by a few percentage points would help, but the real tax money that we're missing out on is in corporate tax (and to a lesser extent in capital gains taxing). We have some of the world's highest marginal corporate tax rates, but there are enough loopholes that many corporations don't pay taxes at all. This doesn't even get into the sizable subisides and tax breaks that we go out of our way to provide (why the hell are we giving massive agribusiness corps corn subidisdies, or tax breaks to fossil fuel companies?). If you want to dramatically increase tax revenue, reform corporate tax to eliminate loopholes while simultaneously lowering the marginal corporate tax rate, with a net result that American corporations will actually pay taxes, but not so much that they'd flee elsewhere. And while you're at it, kill subsidies to big business, and tax capital gains like any other source of income. I wouldn't do this independent of cutting entitlement programs, but this is how we have to handle the revenue side. | ||
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TheDraken
United States640 Posts
On July 26 2011 19:42 BlackFlag wrote: It is a human right. And before Industrialization these "services" were guaranteed by "the family" (which is much bigger than the core family.) With Industrialization these large families dissolved and the state had to implent social programs who overtook the social role "family" had before Industrialization. It's the duty of a country to guarantee welfare for everyone. If it doesn't, you can go right back in the 19th century and look how nice urban life was for the broad masses. But that's propably cool for "economists" because wage-slaves are good for "the economy" (What an abstract term, because "the economy" is everyone. It's you, me, my friends and that drug dealer across the street. "The economy" isn't something that's cut off from the rest of society. Society is build on "the economy" and vice versa.) There's a huge difference between making someone in your family pay for your "rights" and making some successful stranger pay for your "rights". If the family fails to provide the safety net for its members, it's not the job of the state to forcefully establish a surrogate "mommy" for all of those children with fail parents. For those from Denmark and Sweden commenting that they do indeed have free healthcare and the like, it's important to remember that these nations are valuing the intervention of the state in exchange for economic growth (and cutting down the reward for work) to create such an environment. While I see no problem with countries adopting that model if they value that, part of America's allure is its traditionally cutthroat environment. People used to come here knowing that they would be rewarded in greater degree for their hard work, accepting the fact that with increased rewards comes increased risk. Recently we've seen a push for Europeanization, but frankly if people want better safety nets, move to Europe. Let the people who don't need them continue to live in an environment where people accept the risks and benefits of greater self-reliance. 50 years ago a man could venture into American business and land himself into bankruptcy 2 or 3 times (and suffer for it) and yet persevere out to make himself a fortune the fourth time around. In fact, the trend of dipping in and out of poverty before making it big is a rather common theme among successful businessmen. That environment is now threatened by a push for greater and greater safety nets (where bankruptcy is an inconvenient packet of paperwork and a check in the mail), which stifles the climb up for entrepreneurs looking to make a fortune. The American Dream is dying a slow death, and we're doing it to ourselves. | ||
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shell
Portugal2722 Posts
It's way less expensive to spend millions on food programs against obesity then to fight it later in the hospital where you will lose lives and pay up for the medical care! etc.. So actually your quality of life decreases without social policies.. That's why smaller and weaker countrys are in fact better countrys to live then USA, like sweden, denmark, norway, finland and Canada! But of course almost all EU countrys have a better life standart then in USA even if you guys have all the money! | ||
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