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+ Show Spoiler +On July 08 2011 01:32 Treemonkeys wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2011 08:42 Brotkrumen wrote:
I'm sorry, but you said that "the government forced a fiat currency on the people" and implied they did so for sinister reasons. You forgot to mention that that was done to stop the Great Depression and that there is good evidence today, that this was actually what did it.
Either you are backtracking now, or your only point is "the fiat currency saved us, but it is evil!"
I've read your post on values and it remains a representative piece of moral relativism. It's also a red herring right now.
Also you said that the government is the left arm of the corporations and the other way round. Which is a phrase most often not followed by substantive evidence of corporations changing the government in a way people don't want. That's all I was saying.
Lastly, I apologize. I will henceforth refrain from linking to material created by people that have spent years to acquire the knowledge to create it. Because they did force in on people and it was for sinister reasons. That doesn't make the gold standard (which was also forced on people) jesus fucking christ. That is just you projecting your simplistic view of the issue on to me, and than choosing to argue based on an assumption rather than understand, why? The gold standard was bad and fiat is worse. They are both just systems of control, to serve the wealthy and powerful. To think that fiat currency was the only way out of the great depression is absurd, there are always other options, and the consquences of fiat currency will be far worse that whatever so called good it did. You're picking a pretty bad time to praise the success of fiat as world economies are on the brink of failure - which will only pave the way for new currencies, and new and more powerful systems of the control. Thanks to fiat currency we now have a government that has grown in spending over 13 trillion dollars, and it is still accelerating! Most of this money is being using to build systems of control that will ultimately be used against us. Used to spread military over the entire world (which never even left your country) creating the largest and most powerful empire of all known history. Now you're probably going to tell me it's not an empire, because it's not called that. Empire is just a word, the US has every characteristic of one. I'm curious, have you ever been to the USA? If so where did you visit? It is pretty normal here for people to be unhappy with what the government allows the corporations to do, and what the corporations do for the government. I don't recall you linking anything. Show nested quote +
I am aware that you were answering.
The conversation was "Government forces corporations to make food safe"
You answered "Government doesn't because people get sick, so we should abolish government"
To which I am adding "With or without government, you have to check what you eat. So why are you complaining about something that you are not using anyway?"
Point is, the government has safety standards that are not totally ineffective. Without it, no regulations would be in place and people would be worse of.
So again, your reasoning is: "Regulation sometimes fails to make food completely safe, thus we need to abolish regulation".
No it does not "sometimes fail" it subsidizes food that is terrible for you. I'll say it once again, highest cancer rate in the world, highest obesity in the world, combined with terrible health care. That is the USA. I don't want to really get into what I think should be done, because I'm not sure. Which is probably why you're acting like an argumentative jackass in this conversation, no it wasn't your link that pissed me off, but posting it for the stated purpose of doing so sure did. It is apparently impossibly for you to respectfully talk to someone unless they present a god-mode "I have an infallible plan for the entire world here to present on a silver platter". I was simply having an honest conversation with someone who seemed interested until you butted in demanding all the answers and acting like a god damned smart ass. Show nested quote +One of us has a reading-comprehension issue. Could be me because I am the foreigner.
IIRC, you claimed that the only reason government regulation exists and why organic, healthy food (that organic is always healthy is another natural fallacy) is so expensive is a government plot.
I explained that it is simple economics. Industry farming is better than farming like a century ago. Yeah it is you because I said it was two reasons (which are both true) among others and rather than than discuss the others like a decent fucking person you saw an opportunity jumped on it. Oh and cheaper farming is not fucking worth it if you are eating fucking insecticide, and don't fucking tell me that is better when it fucking destroyed my life. Show nested quote +
You are almost there. "We" chose not to do that. We could if we cared enough, but we don't. And even if we cared enough, we would not get rid of our nuclear arsenal until everyone else does.
Thus, the "we" that cannot change things is a "we" that is prevented in doing so by "them" who don't want to. Welcome to democracy.
So I could do something if I cared more? Now you're fucking telling me I don't care enough? Jesus christ you are fucking arrogant. Show nested quote +
On a local level, running for office is easy. I will go to a cafe this sunday and talk to a guy who runs for my local district. If he wins, he will probably try and run for a city office. After this, maybe federal level.
So that's easy.
Of course your opinions might prevent you from gaining office and we are again at this darn "they", they who disagree with us and prevent us from doing what is good for them. Darn them!
Oh so you talked to a guy in a cafe, so it's easy? Probably not even the same country as me? Fucking stupid. Show nested quote +You are not a slave. You are an american. Just your passport, and I really mean the thing you can hold in your hands, is worth 3000$ on the black market. Go anywhere you want, the jungle maybe, or an abandoned village in the ex soviet union, or even africa and live your society free dream. You can if you just want to. You have a right to also. What you don't have a right to is your anarchy where you are right now against the will of your fellow men.
Sorry, that was slang. Imagine I sell you an apple with a plastic wrapper. It's really cheap to produce both and the plastic wrapper adds value to my apple. Now you eat that apple, throw the plastic wrapper away.
the externality is that the wrapper litters the street and somebody needs to clean that up. Without regulation I keep my profits and won't do a thing. A government can force me to go and pick up that wrapper, which costs time and thus money, but it has forced me to internalize the externality. I can't survive without either having my labor taken from me and used against me and to kill others, or without greatly risking my own safety. I am a slave. Oh many times did I fucking say I am not an anarchist or saying we should have anarchy? HOW MANY TIMES? What a waste of time you have been.
Is there a specific reason why you started to use "fucking" as every fifth word in your ranting? It is pretty annoying, and does not help your points in any way.
Also, as far as i understand it now, your point seems to be "Everything is bad, everybody hates me. Everybody is corrupt and trying to abuse me." I really seem to miss what you are going on about, but what do you want? Just for everyone to realize that they live in a miserable world and should be unhappy all the time? That seems to both be pretty emo, and not really serve any purpose.
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On July 07 2011 02:57 Cyba wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2011 02:51 xM(Z wrote:On July 06 2011 20:56 Cyba wrote:On July 06 2011 19:32 xM(Z wrote:
way to completely miss his point... Which point ? That he wants to live in a society with freedom, but not just any society, he wants to live in this same one and denie other people's freedom to live simple safe lives because he needs more "freedom". There's no point to be missed, everybody can live in absolute freedom, just not next to people who don't care to regress back to the tribal ages ;p his point was purely theoretical and was based on the symbiotic relation between those 2 cases. he said/stated that it exists (doesnt matter why). so, if the sad/suffering dude would just leave his cage (as you said), it would mean that the happy dude would stop enjoying his standard of living/equality/cage. (he actually said it the other way arround but i cant see why it wouldnt go both ways. he went with pity(hoping to get it from the happy dude), i went with contempt assuming the phrase "implicitly requires that i..." goes both ways ). And my point was it's a bad example and if anything it shows anarchism can't exist since there's more happy caged ppl then unhappy ones. Raining outside implies my car will get wet, my car is wet doesn't imply it was raining.
its not a bad example if you look at freedom/equality/standard of living as something finite.
imagine freedom as being a buble and someone (the happy dude), gets to have 95% leaving 5% for the unhappy dude. now, you can scream as much as you want at the unhappy dude "go get yourself more freedom" but he cant do it, because he cant pass 100% and if he takes, lets say, 30% it means that the happy dudes part of the buble shrinks to 70%.
in a world with limited resources its unwise to think at infinities then assume everyone can have their slice of heaven.
ps: "Raining outside implies my car will get wet" - if and only if your car is outside, else it doesnt.
(wont be replying again since its a little off topic)
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On July 08 2011 02:39 Simberto wrote:
Is there a specific reason why you started to use "fucking" as every fifth word in your ranting? It is pretty annoying, and does not help your points in any way.
Also, as far as i understand it now, your point seems to be "Everything is bad, everybody hates me. Everybody is corrupt and trying to abuse me." I really seem to miss what you are going on about, but what do you want? Just for everyone to realize that they live in a miserable world and should be unhappy all the time? That seems to both be pretty emo, and not really serve any purpose.
Because the world is full of fucking morons and this is a complete waste of time to talk about anyways. What does it even matter how it "helps" my points? Even if I did convince anyone, it's not like any of us can change a god damned thing about it. It's not even that the whole world is fucked up but the US is pretty bad right now and getting worse, I am definitely getting the hell out while I hopefully still can.
Hey at least we can play starcraft!
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On July 07 2011 21:57 BestZergOnEast wrote:
Hryul :
If you look at life a the beginning or during the industrial revolution, yes, life was brutal for the workers. But it was slightly less brutal than before. The reason why people moved to the cities abandoning their cottage industries and family farms was because as much as it sucked working 12 hours a day in a factory or coal mine it was slightly better than working 15 hours a day scractching a living out of the dirt. You cannot simply look at conditions 400 years ago in a vacuum, you must understand what came before and what came afterwards. It was capital accumulation, the development of industry - namely, it was capitalism that ameliorated the working conditions of these people, not orgnaization or unions.
As far as arming yourself or not is concerned, I would live to live in a utopian world where I never have to worry about whether or not anyone who will hurt me, but so long as I don't I would rather trust in my ability to defend myself than trust in someone else not to attack me.
I don't think a "dispute resolution organization" (as they have been theorized) would want to protect a criminal. It would cause too much headaches for them, so once they realized this guy was stealing from people they would drop him from their lists.
First for Treehmonkeys: Herp Derp. You are not a slave. You have the choice where and how you want to live. What you can't achieve is living in some society without obeying its rules/without consequences. So either you accept the rules OR try to change them OR gtfo! But I won't reply any further because you just turned emo . . .
Now to the Zerg:
It is at least questionable that live was really better at the factories. People moved there because they thought it was better. But I don't want to discuss this. The right point was mentioned earlier: Yes, live improved for workers eventually, but they had to fight for their right. It wasn't given to them by the owners of the factories. Labor union like organizations did that, not "capitalism".
For the second point: "drop" them from the list? So a contract isn't worth the paper written on it. Or do you have court? How do they stay independent, if they get paid by the same people they have to sentence? And the last question wasn't a rhetorical one: What if one of these companies turn into a mafia? What if they arrange prices in a cartel? Who could stop them?
The last point: I won't trust my ability to defend myself. Because there is always someone who is faster, stronger or smarter than me. Guns aren't the great equalizers. Some people can aim better than others, some are faster, some are easier to ambush and so forth. . .
There is hardly any gvmt that couldn't improve in one way or another on the whole wide world. But again: I really believe that without any gvmts it would be far worse.
E: Nice in dodging my point about the health care in europe.
Just a remark: I know that this is an English page, but do you really think the usage of words like "ameliorate" will improve this discussion?
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Are you kidding? Somalia is one of the biggest hellholes on this planet. You couldn't pay me enough to live there.
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On July 08 2011 02:54 Treemonkeys wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2011 02:39 Simberto wrote:
Is there a specific reason why you started to use "fucking" as every fifth word in your ranting? It is pretty annoying, and does not help your points in any way.
Also, as far as i understand it now, your point seems to be "Everything is bad, everybody hates me. Everybody is corrupt and trying to abuse me." I really seem to miss what you are going on about, but what do you want? Just for everyone to realize that they live in a miserable world and should be unhappy all the time? That seems to both be pretty emo, and not really serve any purpose. Because the world is full of fucking morons and this is a complete waste of time to talk about anyways. What does it even matter how it "helps" my points? Even if I did convince anyone, it's not like any of us can change a god damned thing about it. It's not even that the whole world is fucked up but the US is pretty bad right now and getting worse, I am definitely getting the hell out while I hopefully still can. Hey at least we can play starcraft!
Just some things...
Since we're both in the same country and all.
1) Do you have a college degree, if so what is it?
2) Do you vote?
3) Do you volunteer or take part in community actions?
Because all of those "we can't change anything, everyone is an idiot (but you of course, m i rite?), the US is pretty bad right now (slipping from the leaders of the industrialized world to lower on the paradigm doesn't make the US = anywhere near the level of half th third world countries out there)"...and so on.
My point is, yes...The US is currently struggling with a whole metric ton of issues from corruption at all levels to police brutality to being caught warmongering and trying to influence global policies through monetary muscle but that doesn't mean that tomorrow everything is going to go up in flames. Apathetic nihilism is never an answer for anything. I've run into far too many of people like you who shout all the negatives and never have any solutions. Instead, you're just as ineffective as the corrupt and if anything, only further that cause because it's very easy to see the bad. It's much harder to try and come up with effective solutions (eco-villages, permaculture, legal reform)
Also, I'm not going to say swearing makes anything different because people like George Carlin got their point across pretty damn well. The difference is, you have nothing to add except stating/parroting things people already know. So, by all means my fellow American, let's fuck up this thread but I've got a feeling when I look up to people like Michael Reynolds and Bill Mollison, you look up to people like Bill Hicks and Alex Jones.
However, if you have ideas/solutions. I would love to see them (sources please or at least something I can look up relatively easy) because I absolutely adore seeing new points of view.
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If the US is shit I can't imagine what it was in the 30s - dinosaur shit? I don't even want to think what kind of shit the US was before electricity or indoor plumbing was invented. Some kind of shit no doubt. Treemonkeys can probably tell us.
It's a truly sinister system of control that gives you precisely what you want, isn't it? Fiat currency, credit, all of it resulting in a saturation of abundance. When almost everyone is fed and warm at night, the system has a compelling argument for control indeed.
Oh wait this isn't Brave New World we aren't popping somas and fucking strangers every day (only on the weekends!), faith in the system because it has worked is not a sign of it secretly controlling us through debt or some such nonsense. People go into debt because they see tangible benefits from it, not because they are maneuvered or forced to do so.
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This conspiracy theorist garbage is a fun read though. I honestly thought Zeitgeist was a satire.
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On July 08 2011 04:27 TheGlassface wrote:
1) Do you have a college degree, if so what is it?
2) Do you vote?
3) Do you volunteer or take part in community actions?
What is the purpose of these questions before I consider answering them? A pop quiz to see if I am running the appropriate hamster wheels required for change?
Oh and I don't look up to anyone and if I didn't it wouldn't be Alex Jones he's just an asshole making money off of people's fear offering them nothing valuable in return, I never heard of Bill Hicks before yout mentioned him. It's like you have never met a unique person in your entire life, got to shove me into one propaganda cubicle weather it is Alex Jones, Libertarian, Anarchist, Tea party, etc. While some people might agree with bits and pieces of my philosophy it is mine and mine only and I've yet to find a good reason to "look up to someone". I learn what is valuable from people and discard the rest, no one is anything close to perfect - far from it. Including me of course, I'm just another idiot in the pond and the only thing that sets me apart is being self aware my own shortcomings.
Society fucked me over, it is as simple as that. Call me emo or whatever the fuck you want, but that is what happened. I'd say I'm happy it worked out for you but I'd be lying. For most people have their minds bludgeoned effectively enough that they never become self aware of what has been done to them, and all of us. Ignorance is truly bliss, and for that I am jealous.
On July 08 2011 06:18 DeepElemBlues wrote:
electricity or indoor plumbing
Do electricity and plumbing make you feel happy? Give you a reason to live? This is exactly why you cannot understand where I'm coming from. Such pointless and shallow luxuries, you only think life would be miserable without them because you have been weakened and caged for so long.
On July 08 2011 06:18 DeepElemBlues wrote:
Oh wait this isn't Brave New World we aren't popping somas and fucking strangers every day (only on the weekends!)
The only on weekends is quite ironic, and I'm really surprised you wouldn't want to live in BNW.
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Why does every thread with potential to be interesting in this forum turn into Treemonkeys vs the world?
On July 08 2011 06:45 Treemonkeys wrote:Do electricity and plumbing make you feel happy? Give you a reason to live? This is exactly why you cannot understand where I'm coming from. Such pointless and shallow luxuries, you only think life would be miserable without them because you have been weakened and caged for so long.
And yet you spend all day on an Internet forum arguing about how we're all caged.... do us all a favor and show us who's boss by going and being happy without our shallow luxuries then.
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On July 08 2011 06:50 dogmeatstew wrote:
Why does every thread with potential to be interesting in this forum turn into Treemonkeys vs the world?
Because so many are compelled to argue with my way of looking at things and I am often compelled to respond.
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Treemonkeys, it'd be fascinating if you could prove your labor is used to kill people.
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On July 08 2011 06:50 dogmeatstew wrote:
And yet you spend all day on an Internet forum arguing about how we're all caged.... do us all a favor and show us who's boss by going and being happy without our shallow luxuries then.
This is no longer possible for me.
On July 08 2011 06:55 Elegy wrote:
Treemonkeys, it'd be fascinating if you could prove your labor is used to kill people.
Who pays for US bombs? The tooth fairy?
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On July 08 2011 07:12 Treemonkeys wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2011 06:50 dogmeatstew wrote:
And yet you spend all day on an Internet forum arguing about how we're all caged.... do us all a favor and show us who's boss by going and being happy without our shallow luxuries then. This is no longer possible for me. Show nested quote +On July 08 2011 06:55 Elegy wrote:
Treemonkeys, it'd be fascinating if you could prove your labor is used to kill people. Who pays for US bombs? The tooth fairy?
No, I'm wondering whether you can prove it was your actual dollar that paid for X bomb or Y gun and not your neighbors.
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On July 08 2011 07:13 Elegy wrote:
No, I'm wondering whether you can prove it was your actual dollar that paid for X bomb or Y gun and not your neighbors.
Irrelevant when my labor is taken without my consent while no one can prove it was not used for that purpose.
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On July 08 2011 07:15 Treemonkeys wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2011 07:13 Elegy wrote:
No, I'm wondering whether you can prove it was your actual dollar that paid for X bomb or Y gun and not your neighbors. Irrelevant when my labor is taken without my consent while no one can prove it was not used for that purpose.
Ah. So burden of proof doesn't lie on you.
But you can always leave society completely and allow no man to take your labor. It'd be inconvenient, but you certainly do it if you had the willpower.
You voluntarily choose to remain within the slave society around you. No one will force you to work or pay taxes or any number of things if you simply packed up and left, or lived in a deep forest, or built a small farm out in the boondocks. You don't really have to labor, but you do, and you choose to labor in a society and a government not responsive to your needs.
It sounds like you're upset that you can't live the quality of life you apparently desire without paying into the slave society around you, the very same society from which you derive that quality of life. No one forces you to live where you do (well, assuming you didn't voluntarily sign a contract or something of that nature, or you are on probation for deliberately violating the law), etc. I'll read your previous posts to see what exactly you mean though
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TreeMonkeys:
"I never heard of Bill Hicks before yout mentioned him."
This is a sad line.
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"you can't prove it didn't happen so therefore it must be true!"
pants on head logic as usual
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It's easy to blame the world for all of your woes.
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On July 08 2011 06:45 Treemonkeys wrote:
blah blah blah I never heard of Bill Hicks before yout mentioned him. blah blah blah
Whoa whoa whoa. Hold it right there. Go download some Bill Hicks audio. He is a legend of stand-up comedy.
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EPT
