EPTIraq & Syrian Civil Wars - Page 404
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Please guys, stay on topic. This thread is about the situation in Iraq and Syria. | ||
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[DUF]MethodMan
Germany1716 Posts
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Sermokala
United States14081 Posts
On March 21 2018 19:25 Broetchenholer wrote: Uhm, the russians did not exist when the turks took Constantinople. It did fall in 1453 if i a m not mistaken 500 years is a pretty solid time for considering it your own. If it weren't, the french would lose Gascogne and Normandy, Germany would own Italy and the BeNeLux and the USA had to disband to a confederation of Native American tribes. Giving the Greek Istanbul after WW2 would not have made any sense as well, as Turkey was not defeated, why should it give up anything. The only one of your arguments that, from my limited knowledge, makes some sense, is that Turkey might have fallen into the russian sphere of influence had the west not protected it. But i think that gives too little credit to the military power Turkey has on it's own, i doubt they would have been easy pickings even if the US had not deemed it a worthy military partner. But you could also argue that the US should be grateful that Turkey was defending american interests in the region. The grand prince of Moscow (the processor state of russia) married a byzantine princess and followed the same orthodox religion as the Byzantines. Their grandson would proclaim himself the first tzar of all russia and this is how you get the "third rome" label that the Russians like to proclaim themselves as. The Crimean war was fought beacuse russia wanted constantinople and the west wanted to stop the Russians from getting it. 170 odd years of them relying on the west to keep Istandbul. You don't give credit to someone for doing something they can only do beacuse you help them do it. On March 22 2018 05:32 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Why speak from total ignorance? In the modern age of the internet, you don't even need to open a book, you can just use the same browser that you are communicating by to make sure you are factually accurate. Russia did not exist. What now occupies the Eastern part of Russia consisted of multiple principilities, several Muslim Mongol Khanates and several Catholic kingdoms at the time the Ottoman Empire (not "the turks") conquered Constantinople, whose people spoke Greek, and referred to themselves citizens of the Roman Empire. This at a period of time when Rome was the capital of the Papal states and the Holy Roman Empire (don't ask why it's called that) existed. The last time people who could regard themselves as Greeks, which nevertheless there was not a concept of nationalism to an allegiance to a "Greece" identity at any point during the period leading to the fall of Constantinople was at least some 1700 years ago. To put your ramblings to perspective, the strongest country in what is now modern Russia was The Golden Horde, a Muslim Mongol Khanate and Italy would have a better historical claim to Istanbul; that's how tenuous your ranting is. You're the one who's wholly ignorant of eastern European and middle eastern history. The turks were called turks from well before the time they migrated ahead of the mongols into the middle east and ended the time of the caliphs. Even the later horselord Timur the lame was more of a turk then a mongol. the keivan rus existed before Constantinople fell and was divided into the different russian princedoms that the mongols found. The western schism had happened well before Constantinople fell and the religion that Constantinople had was the same as the russian states north of it had. The golden horde was well to the south and east of the russian princes and only demanded tribute from them. After the Ugra river they simply stopped doing this. There was the polish lithuanian lands well between the russian states and the HRE. People lived in Greece they called themselves greek that didn't just end when they never stopped speaking greek and lived under ottoman occupation. They were the military elite of the ottomans when they were kidnapped as children and made into solider slaves among other christian populations. . So yes the modern Russian state when it calls itself the third rome and proclaims itself the defender of the orthodox faith has a claim on Istanbul and wants it as its warm water port into the med. Don't be such a dick if you don't really know much about the region. | ||
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[DUF]MethodMan
Germany1716 Posts
On the topic itself: I don't think it's very hard to see Erdogan waging war again for his personal agenda. Funny, how prison seems to bring out the best in | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
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Sermokala
United States14081 Posts
On March 22 2018 08:25 Plansix wrote: Please, we handled Nixon and he was way better at this than Trump. But Plansix he wasn't a crook he told me this. | ||
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lastpuritan
United States540 Posts
I don’t give a single damn about Ottomans, I don’t want my country to annex other nations or I don’t want any superiority towards neighboring countries. I WANT safe public transports, safe clubbing, safe schools! Your ideolgy may be okay with armed struggle for indepence, you may want kurds to get their own nation because they served you right, but you can’t blame a state that try eliminate such threats to its sovereignty. the point that you don’t understand, you’re not the one who decide who gets the autonomy in Turkey, or in Syria. The people who live there decides on such matters. YPG in Syria is an organization that is controlled by the PKK generals, the guy that I posted with US general is former PKK general whos now a YPG general, it doesnt make him less terrorist if he changes his patches and uniform. Now you can argue, PKK is not terrorist, but then you can google terrorist attacks in Turkey and see how many times civilian entities were targeted. The turkish army keeps finding guns in PKK hands that are given to YPG, such as manpads, javelins and brand new other atgms. If one organization is not directly hostile to the turkish lands, but keeps delivering weapons and exchange generals. that makes them as dangerous as the PKK. imagine a dude that was isis general, then he changed uniforms and became al qaeda, at the same time he fought for you and claimed he’s not isis anymore, but at the same time he still raises Al Baghdadi’s banner on a liberated city and picture of him in his office. He says he follows his ideals as a leader but not ISIS, gentlemen, that doesnt make him less isis. that’s the situation of YPG. they want a united kurdistan, they will be tools of any foreign power that would help them to get it, and they’re okay to commit terrorist attacks such as public suicide bombings, civil assassinations, kidnapping etc. It’s normal for a state to operate outside its borders to end this crossovers, that you call, invasion and ethnic cleansing. we’re not only fighting a terroist force, but the core elements that make it live, many PKKs found dead in Turkey is Syrian origin, it’s their problem if they claimed turkish soil and get rekt anytime they try. Any nation would do the same. Erdogan being a dictaror or not will not change the fight we take on, he will die eventually, but you will see the next government will do the same regardless of their ideology. The turks, and high percantage of Kurdish Turks, or state kurds as pkk tags them, will not give their land to a communist, despot entity. I recommend you to do some research how Pkk ended Turkish left in 30 years, how many arabs were displaced in Syria, how many Arabs got lost in kurdish prisons, hows the life under YPG rule for non kurds. If you think they’re different just because they got some female fighters, you’re wrong. Female recruits are there because, they make good suicide bombers, and cover up lack of manpower. You can see they were captured when they were around the age of 12 to 16, and many have been forced to do prostitution. however mates, I believe the operations will continue until kurds retreat where US promised them to be, and Turkey will march to Iraq and cleanse their camps there. We dont see any more terrorist attacks in Turkish capitals, AND if that costs us the destruction of few villages that is willing to HOST those militas, I’m okay with that. because no turkish citizen would be okay to host isis members that plans to bomb civil lives. the turkish hostile attitude towards europe and the us is there because they’re not getting the same level of empathy as the PKK gets. And American, western dislike for Turkey is understandable, if YPG is hunted, there will be no force for them to take on Assad, Syria will be lost to Russian, Iran influence. Whole Europe follows the American agenda, give up the fake democracy calling, you’re only criticizing Turkey because Americans protect european ass from possible (lol) russian invasion. But that’s not our problem. The Americans decided to support kurds and liberate cities with them despite Turkey offered FSA and Turkish forces. They said Turkish manpower isn’t capable. Now the same force kicks that YPG asses like a walk in the park. Your choice, your failures. Keep on doing that, I know my people. We’re pragmatic enough to quit Nato and place few s400s on Istanbul if we feel to. Can you blame an ally if it quits being ally once it felt no ally on its back but rather continous undermining for its interests and security. | ||
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Sermokala
United States14081 Posts
Its a real shame beacuse turkey could really be a super power in the middle east if they would just get over their hate of the kurds and turn them into an asset. A Kurdish defended pipeline from Iraq through Anatolia would drown them in cash while making them able to cut russias balls off at the business table when it comes to selling oil and gas to europe. | ||
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LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
On March 22 2018 11:39 Sermokala wrote: Yeah that was Russias plan against the Chechens, It doesn't go well for the nation thats attacking the entrenched locals. Putin learned the way to control the chechens was to make friends of the leaders that he could and coop the people into enjoying what they were given. That’s the... less ugly half of what went down in Chechnya. The other half is not unlike what lastpuritan is talking about. | ||
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Broetchenholer
Germany1950 Posts
On March 22 2018 07:22 Sermokala wrote: The grand prince of Moscow (the processor state of russia) married a byzantine princess and followed the same orthodox religion as the Byzantines. Their grandson would proclaim himself the first tzar of all russia and this is how you get the "third rome" label that the Russians like to proclaim themselves as. The Crimean war was fought beacuse russia wanted constantinople and the west wanted to stop the Russians from getting it. 170 odd years of them relying on the west to keep Istandbul. You don't give credit to someone for doing something they can only do beacuse you help them do it. You're the one who's wholly ignorant of eastern European and middle eastern history. The turks were called turks from well before the time they migrated ahead of the mongols into the middle east and ended the time of the caliphs. Even the later horselord Timur the lame was more of a turk then a mongol. the keivan rus existed before Constantinople fell and was divided into the different russian princedoms that the mongols found. The western schism had happened well before Constantinople fell and the religion that Constantinople had was the same as the russian states north of it had. The golden horde was well to the south and east of the russian princes and only demanded tribute from them. After the Ugra river they simply stopped doing this. There was the polish lithuanian lands well between the russian states and the HRE. People lived in Greece they called themselves greek that didn't just end when they never stopped speaking greek and lived under ottoman occupation. They were the military elite of the ottomans when they were kidnapped as children and made into solider slaves among other christian populations. . So yes the modern Russian state when it calls itself the third rome and proclaims itself the defender of the orthodox faith has a claim on Istanbul and wants it as its warm water port into the med. Don't be such a dick if you don't really know much about the region. Yeah, allright, every country in medieval times wanted to own constantinople because it was the biggest city of the time where all the knowledge of the late roman empire was still present. The russian tsar was surely impressed by the city and creating a thrid rome is not a new idea. By that logic, Germany should have control of rome because Charlemagne wanted to make Aachen the next rome and Otto the first tried the same with Magdeburg. The russians are also a different kind of orthodox, but that might have not been relevent back then. The point is, "russia" had no business in claiming constantinple from the Ottomans in the 15th century. The Crimean war is from 1850 when the two nations for the first time shared borders. SO yeah, i'll give you that the Russian empire tried to take land from turkey 150 years ago. But again, claiming that Turkey has to be thankful for that intervention is like saying Germany should be bloody thankful because Britain helped defeat nopelon or Berlin would now be French. | ||
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Silvanel
Poland4742 Posts
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Broetchenholer
Germany1950 Posts
Anyway, that is a tangent to the ongoing discussion. While we disagree on political landscape of renaissance eurasia we do not disagree on Erdogan Turkey. They are using the real terror threat of some groups in the kurdish independence movement to wage war. And they feel great about it. They are destabilizing a whole area with tens of thousands of people living in it they are killing innocents in their war to stop the killing of innocents and they are selectively ignoring other terrorists that fit their agenda. All together this paints the picture of a very troubling nation and that people like lastpuritan get a boner from this kind of action and cheer the death of hundreds of people on is really troublesome. THis kind of atmosphere that the turkish government is creating is nourishing the worst kind of extremists, it is not very different from autocrasies from the 20th century that removed all humanity from their victims which allowed their normal citizens to indiscriminately kill and torture the enemies of the state. It's obviously not the same thing as there are some real terrorists among the kurdish independence movement, but it's getting pretty close. | ||
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lastpuritan
United States540 Posts
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Sermokala
United States14081 Posts
On March 22 2018 19:33 Broetchenholer wrote: Yeah, allright, every country in medieval times wanted to own constantinople because it was the biggest city of the time where all the knowledge of the late roman empire was still present. The russian tsar was surely impressed by the city and creating a thrid rome is not a new idea. By that logic, Germany should have control of rome because Charlemagne wanted to make Aachen the next rome and Otto the first tried the same with Magdeburg. The russians are also a different kind of orthodox, but that might have not been relevent back then. The point is, "russia" had no business in claiming constantinple from the Ottomans in the 15th century. The Crimean war is from 1850 when the two nations for the first time shared borders. SO yeah, i'll give you that the Russian empire tried to take land from turkey 150 years ago. But again, claiming that Turkey has to be thankful for that intervention is like saying Germany should be bloody thankful because Britain helped defeat nopelon or Berlin would now be French. Charlemagne was a catholic and a frank. He was on the other side of the christian world both theologically and geographically from Constantinople. It would have been relevent to be a different kind of christian when the christian church had almost just happened. Russia had been warring south tword Constantinople for centuries by the time the Crimean war hit and only when it was in sight did the western powers push back. They were forced back before that war and after that war by western powers telling them that they couldn't take it. Germany should be happy for British help as Britain should be happy for German help. Neapolitan conquered almost all of Germany and the end of the Neapolitan wars resulted in the conditions for Prussian ascension. If he wasn't stopped Berlin would probably be under a french flag or its vasselship. Russia has a claim by them bringing up the past and insisting that they have a claim. Thats all you really need for a claim. The "debts" from 170 (which is a bit less beacuse of the above) extends to the cold war when our protection and NATO membership continued. Theres no reason for turkey to be in a north atlantic treaty if it wasn't an extension of the other parties influence to have a bastion that close to russia. But yeah Turkey is invading syria to ethnically clense the area of kurds beacuse they think all kurds share the same blood and should all die. This will do nothing but turn the entire Kurdish world against turkey and strengthen the PKK as the leader of the Kurdish people for decades to come. People give us shit for Iraq but at least we pretended to have reasons for it. | ||
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lastpuritan
United States540 Posts
ethnic cleansing: https://twitter.com/mhmtslmz/status/975828515730939905?s=21 https://twitter.com/acemal71/status/972562235494199296?s=21 https://twitter.com/rabiacrh/status/974923237745360896?s=21 yeah... - by the way, I think we owe more to the russians than americans if the subject is istanbul. russian arms were vital in ww1 for turks to defeat invading forces. | ||
KwarK
United States43504 Posts
On March 23 2018 07:51 lastpuritan wrote: dude, you would terminate whole kurdish race if you suffered same attacks we’ve been suffering. ethnic cleansing: https://twitter.com/mhmtslmz/status/975828515730939905?s=21 https://twitter.com/acemal71/status/972562235494199296?s=21 https://twitter.com/rabiacrh/status/974923237745360896?s=21 yeah... - by the way, I think we owe more to the russians than americans if the subject is istanbul. russian arms were vital in ww1 for turks to defeat invading forces. Russia and the Ottoman Empire were on different sides in World War 1 and neither empire survived the war. Read a damn book. | ||
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xM(Z
Romania5298 Posts
On March 23 2018 07:51 lastpuritan wrote: that comes down to the argument of 'who started it first' and you(the turks) can never win that argument because you came from middle Asia(Asia central) to conquer the middle easterners(indo-europeans, levantines, a.k.a. the natives), while running from the mongols. dude, you would terminate whole kurdish race if you suffered same attacks we’ve been suffering. ethnic cleansing: https://twitter.com/mhmtslmz/status/975828515730939905?s=21 https://twitter.com/acemal71/status/972562235494199296?s=21 https://twitter.com/rabiacrh/status/974923237745360896?s=21 yeah... - by the way, I think we owe more to the russians than americans if the subject is istanbul. russian arms were vital in ww1 for turks to defeat invading forces. history dictates that you always started it first(by it = wars, conquests, atrocities; obv.). now, what you should find a solution to is: how do we finish it?(so far you gravitate towards extermination). | ||
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lastpuritan
United States540 Posts
On March 23 2018 13:02 KwarK wrote: Russia and the Ottoman Empire were on different sides in World War 1 and neither empire survived the war. Read a damn book. sigh... at least keep your silence? have you heard of bolsheviks? just asking. | ||
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Broetchenholer
Germany1950 Posts
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KwarK
United States43504 Posts
On March 23 2018 22:37 lastpuritan wrote: sigh... at least keep your silence? have you heard of bolsheviks? just asking. The Bolsheviks weren’t involved in WW1. That was one of their main policies. The Ottoman Empire and the Russian Empire fought in WW1. Neither Empire survived WW1. Russia collapsed into civil war at the end of 1917 and the Bolsheviks only held the highly populous area around the main western cities during the rest of WW1 while the remnants of the old regime held on to the rest of the nation and were, incidentally, still fighting the Central Powers. By the time the Bolsheviks had consolidated control and established what we would know as the Soviet Union the Ottoman Empire had long fallen. So let's return to your original claim, that the Russian Empire provided aid to the Ottoman Empire during WW1, allowing the Ottoman Empire to defeat the invading forces. Firstly, the Ottoman Empire was defeated by the invading forces in WW1 and was dissolved. Secondly, the Russian Empire were one of those invading forces for the majority of WW1. Learn to admit that you misspoke. | ||
zatic
Zurich15359 Posts
The new national museum in Ankara takes it to the extreme with muddling history. Walking through the you would think Gallipoli was an amazing Turkish victory against the invading Greeks and Arminians. | ||
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