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Please guys, stay on topic.
This thread is about the situation in Iraq and Syria. |
On November 28 2015 23:33 xM(Z wrote:
ignore about 75% then strawman the other 25%.
like, he agrees/has no problem with killing people if they pass through ones back yard. BUT DID YOU NOT SEE THE "NO TRESPASSING" SIGN!
Edit: hmm, in US maybe they do that; i don't know.
Its more like some dude with guns whom you don't particularly like was passing through your backyard to kill some other dudes you do like.
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On November 28 2015 23:43 heliusx wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2015 23:33 xM(Z wrote:
ignore about 75% then strawman the other 25%.
like, he agrees/has no problem with killing people if they pass through ones back yard. BUT DID YOU NOT SEE THE "NO TRESPASSING" SIGN!
Edit: hmm, in US maybe they do that; i don't know. Its more like some dude with guns whom you don't particularly like was passing through your backyard to kill some other dudes you do like.
Well, at least we can now agree that Turkey does actually 'like' at least some of the Syrian terrorist groups so here's to uncovering the truth I guess.
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On November 28 2015 23:29 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2015 23:22 dfs wrote:On November 28 2015 09:45 lastpuritan wrote:Putin expects official apology, compensation and responsible army men to be fired. ( Its a joke, right? ) http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34941http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34940109Russia is trying to do everything except declaring war over an issue that they are completely WRONG and LYING. Another huge partner and possible ally is turning its back to Russia, and Putin seems eased with that. What a glory for him to deploy mighty s400's and threaten Turkey to hit their jets if they do it again. What now? Will they enter Turkish air-space again and try to hit Turkish jets to make sure their violation is done, because you all need to know, Russia Stronk? I would totally agree with Russian claims if they were not famous with their jets doing this for ages, and if Turkey had not warned them not only before the shooting, they have been warned days ago when they violate 3 times in a week. Erdogan wants proof from Putin and says Turkey buys its gas and oil from Russia, Iran, Azerbaijan and Northern Iraq, as well as LNG from Algeria and Qatar in response to some Russian officials claiming that Turkey buys oil from ISIS. This is all happening in the same week The U.S. Treasury Department proves Syrian Regime is the one buying ISIS oil. And Putin is completely silent about that. - Visa free travel is cancelled. - Food restrictions similar to restrictions to EU after Ukraine crisis. 'Everyone understands that each Turkish tomato bought in Auchan (supermarket) or a market is a contribution to yet another missile which will be used to shoot at our boys,' warned Gennadiy Onishchenko, formerly Vladimir Putin's top medical guru, now a key Medvedev aide - Deployment of unnecessary s400s to Syria. Lying about warnings and violation. - Deporting Turkish businessmen out of Russia, call for Russian citizens to come back from Turkey. - Trying to hit Turkish tourism income. (when 100 russian rubles only make 4 Turkish Liras) - Accusing Turkey with some bullshit propaganda See: https://www.rt.com/business/323391-isis-oil-business-turkey-russia/ - Then see this: http://imgz.star.com.tr/imgsdisk/2014/06/16/160620140046315037306_2.jpg (famous kebab restaurant) - Soontobecancelled pipeline project (that was already expected to be cancelled) Are they really unaware that none of these will make Erdogan apology as he is the same breed with Putin, he wants 1v1 in Paris. Hope they make a good swordfight there and never push their egos to our face again. Read more at: http://www.wsj.com/articles/turkeys-erdogan-seeks-meeting-with-putin-1448620798 // http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3334650/Russia-enters-diplomatic-food-fight-Turkey-Putin-tells-shoppers-stop-buying-Turkish-tomatoes-funding-missile-shoot-boys.htmlDont know if its official, here you can listen the warnings while pilot is saying he did not enter turkish air even for a second and he got no warnings at all. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34925823 Honest question, I don't pay much attention to these threads usually, so should I ignore this guy and not bother? This kinda seems like so much fun to go through, though. He's what I'd call one of the trouble posters, if that's what you're asking. The US doesn't need or want a conflict with Russia in the MidEast, and none of this paints Turkey in a favorable light ( the "they were warned" BS doesn't reflect the reality of how you deal with this issue). Basically what they want is to stop anyone from escalating.
How so?
It is a bit sad really. Both sides point out the dangerous and aggressive acts of the other side while playing down the part played by their side. It would be much more fruitful if it was exactly opposite: You should be at least as, if not more, critical of the side closer to your heart.
Further escalation (at the moment mostly by Russia, Turkey seems to try to be conciliatory to some extent) will make other incidents more probable and should one happen we will se the same kind of finger pointing with posters taking sides in already predictable ways (suggesting that the side taken has less to do with the incident at hand and more with the sides). Everyone should reflect on this.
To actually prevent further incidents and escalation would make closer cooperation necessary. Agreed on protocols on such stuff, agreed on warning frequencies (another piece I just read, suggested that the Russian plane is usually not equipped to receive the GUARD signal) and so on. Unfortunately this assumes a sort of goodwill that might not be there actually because of diametrally opposed political aims.
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On November 28 2015 23:50 Salazarz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2015 23:43 heliusx wrote:On November 28 2015 23:33 xM(Z wrote:
ignore about 75% then strawman the other 25%.
like, he agrees/has no problem with killing people if they pass through ones back yard. BUT DID YOU NOT SEE THE "NO TRESPASSING" SIGN!
Edit: hmm, in US maybe they do that; i don't know. Its more like some dude with guns whom you don't particularly like was passing through your backyard to kill some other dudes you do like. Well, at least we can now agree that Turkey does actually 'like' at least some of the Syrian terrorist groups so here's to uncovering the truth I guess.
If by 'we' you mean you and I sure but I don't speak for other people. Anyway almost all those groups are terrorists including Assad's friends. At this point you might as well evacuate all the civilians and nuke the entire shithole.
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On November 29 2015 00:18 heliusx wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2015 23:50 Salazarz wrote:On November 28 2015 23:43 heliusx wrote:On November 28 2015 23:33 xM(Z wrote:
ignore about 75% then strawman the other 25%.
like, he agrees/has no problem with killing people if they pass through ones back yard. BUT DID YOU NOT SEE THE "NO TRESPASSING" SIGN!
Edit: hmm, in US maybe they do that; i don't know. Its more like some dude with guns whom you don't particularly like was passing through your backyard to kill some other dudes you do like. Well, at least we can now agree that Turkey does actually 'like' at least some of the Syrian terrorist groups so here's to uncovering the truth I guess. If by 'we' you mean you and I sure but I don't speak for other people. Anyway almost all those groups are terrorists including Assad's friends. At this point you might as well evacuate all the civilians and nuke the entire shithole.
Many of the civilians are combattants, its a civil war after all. Apart from that I agree, no "good" sides here. Its one huge quagmire that dirties everyone involved.
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On November 29 2015 00:09 silynxer wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2015 23:29 LegalLord wrote:On November 28 2015 23:22 dfs wrote:On November 28 2015 09:45 lastpuritan wrote:Putin expects official apology, compensation and responsible army men to be fired. ( Its a joke, right? ) http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34941http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34940109Russia is trying to do everything except declaring war over an issue that they are completely WRONG and LYING. Another huge partner and possible ally is turning its back to Russia, and Putin seems eased with that. What a glory for him to deploy mighty s400's and threaten Turkey to hit their jets if they do it again. What now? Will they enter Turkish air-space again and try to hit Turkish jets to make sure their violation is done, because you all need to know, Russia Stronk? I would totally agree with Russian claims if they were not famous with their jets doing this for ages, and if Turkey had not warned them not only before the shooting, they have been warned days ago when they violate 3 times in a week. Erdogan wants proof from Putin and says Turkey buys its gas and oil from Russia, Iran, Azerbaijan and Northern Iraq, as well as LNG from Algeria and Qatar in response to some Russian officials claiming that Turkey buys oil from ISIS. This is all happening in the same week The U.S. Treasury Department proves Syrian Regime is the one buying ISIS oil. And Putin is completely silent about that. - Visa free travel is cancelled. - Food restrictions similar to restrictions to EU after Ukraine crisis. 'Everyone understands that each Turkish tomato bought in Auchan (supermarket) or a market is a contribution to yet another missile which will be used to shoot at our boys,' warned Gennadiy Onishchenko, formerly Vladimir Putin's top medical guru, now a key Medvedev aide - Deployment of unnecessary s400s to Syria. Lying about warnings and violation. - Deporting Turkish businessmen out of Russia, call for Russian citizens to come back from Turkey. - Trying to hit Turkish tourism income. (when 100 russian rubles only make 4 Turkish Liras) - Accusing Turkey with some bullshit propaganda See: https://www.rt.com/business/323391-isis-oil-business-turkey-russia/ - Then see this: http://imgz.star.com.tr/imgsdisk/2014/06/16/160620140046315037306_2.jpg (famous kebab restaurant) - Soontobecancelled pipeline project (that was already expected to be cancelled) Are they really unaware that none of these will make Erdogan apology as he is the same breed with Putin, he wants 1v1 in Paris. Hope they make a good swordfight there and never push their egos to our face again. Read more at: http://www.wsj.com/articles/turkeys-erdogan-seeks-meeting-with-putin-1448620798 // http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3334650/Russia-enters-diplomatic-food-fight-Turkey-Putin-tells-shoppers-stop-buying-Turkish-tomatoes-funding-missile-shoot-boys.htmlDont know if its official, here you can listen the warnings while pilot is saying he did not enter turkish air even for a second and he got no warnings at all. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34925823 https://twitter.com/Malcolmite/status/670340972023300097https://twitter.com/Malcolmite/status/670339892484956161 Honest question, I don't pay much attention to these threads usually, so should I ignore this guy and not bother? This kinda seems like so much fun to go through, though. He's what I'd call one of the trouble posters, if that's what you're asking. The US doesn't need or want a conflict with Russia in the MidEast, and none of this paints Turkey in a favorable light ( the "they were warned" BS doesn't reflect the reality of how you deal with this issue). Basically what they want is to stop anyone from escalating. How so?
Because that's not what you do when a clearly non-aggressive plane skims past the border for 17 seconds (assuming the Turkish story, still). Just about everyone who knows about airspace violations (including US military leaders) who was asked on this issue confirms that Turkey acted badly.
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On November 29 2015 00:36 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2015 00:09 silynxer wrote:On November 28 2015 23:29 LegalLord wrote:On November 28 2015 23:22 dfs wrote:On November 28 2015 09:45 lastpuritan wrote:Putin expects official apology, compensation and responsible army men to be fired. ( Its a joke, right? ) http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34941http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34940109Russia is trying to do everything except declaring war over an issue that they are completely WRONG and LYING. Another huge partner and possible ally is turning its back to Russia, and Putin seems eased with that. What a glory for him to deploy mighty s400's and threaten Turkey to hit their jets if they do it again. What now? Will they enter Turkish air-space again and try to hit Turkish jets to make sure their violation is done, because you all need to know, Russia Stronk? I would totally agree with Russian claims if they were not famous with their jets doing this for ages, and if Turkey had not warned them not only before the shooting, they have been warned days ago when they violate 3 times in a week. Erdogan wants proof from Putin and says Turkey buys its gas and oil from Russia, Iran, Azerbaijan and Northern Iraq, as well as LNG from Algeria and Qatar in response to some Russian officials claiming that Turkey buys oil from ISIS. This is all happening in the same week The U.S. Treasury Department proves Syrian Regime is the one buying ISIS oil. And Putin is completely silent about that. - Visa free travel is cancelled. - Food restrictions similar to restrictions to EU after Ukraine crisis. 'Everyone understands that each Turkish tomato bought in Auchan (supermarket) or a market is a contribution to yet another missile which will be used to shoot at our boys,' warned Gennadiy Onishchenko, formerly Vladimir Putin's top medical guru, now a key Medvedev aide - Deployment of unnecessary s400s to Syria. Lying about warnings and violation. - Deporting Turkish businessmen out of Russia, call for Russian citizens to come back from Turkey. - Trying to hit Turkish tourism income. (when 100 russian rubles only make 4 Turkish Liras) - Accusing Turkey with some bullshit propaganda See: https://www.rt.com/business/323391-isis-oil-business-turkey-russia/ - Then see this: http://imgz.star.com.tr/imgsdisk/2014/06/16/160620140046315037306_2.jpg (famous kebab restaurant) - Soontobecancelled pipeline project (that was already expected to be cancelled) Are they really unaware that none of these will make Erdogan apology as he is the same breed with Putin, he wants 1v1 in Paris. Hope they make a good swordfight there and never push their egos to our face again. Read more at: http://www.wsj.com/articles/turkeys-erdogan-seeks-meeting-with-putin-1448620798 // http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3334650/Russia-enters-diplomatic-food-fight-Turkey-Putin-tells-shoppers-stop-buying-Turkish-tomatoes-funding-missile-shoot-boys.htmlDont know if its official, here you can listen the warnings while pilot is saying he did not enter turkish air even for a second and he got no warnings at all. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34925823 https://twitter.com/Malcolmite/status/670340972023300097https://twitter.com/Malcolmite/status/670339892484956161 Honest question, I don't pay much attention to these threads usually, so should I ignore this guy and not bother? This kinda seems like so much fun to go through, though. He's what I'd call one of the trouble posters, if that's what you're asking. The US doesn't need or want a conflict with Russia in the MidEast, and none of this paints Turkey in a favorable light ( the "they were warned" BS doesn't reflect the reality of how you deal with this issue). Basically what they want is to stop anyone from escalating. How so? Because that's not what you do when a clearly non-aggressive plane skims past the border for 17 seconds (assuming the Turkish story, still). Just about everyone who knows about airspace violations (including US military leaders) who was asked on this issue confirms that Turkey acted badly.
But "Turkey acted badly" is not a particularly insightful analysis of the situation, it's just you simplifying a procedural event to a narrow moral dimension. The question is why did Turkey (or rather this one jet pilot, precision is important here) act like it did? And the answer to that includes very questionable procedures on the Russian side as well. If you want I'll say that Turkey "acted worse" but from this nothing really follows.
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On November 29 2015 00:36 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2015 00:09 silynxer wrote:On November 28 2015 23:29 LegalLord wrote:On November 28 2015 23:22 dfs wrote:On November 28 2015 09:45 lastpuritan wrote:Putin expects official apology, compensation and responsible army men to be fired. ( Its a joke, right? ) http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34941http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34940109Russia is trying to do everything except declaring war over an issue that they are completely WRONG and LYING. Another huge partner and possible ally is turning its back to Russia, and Putin seems eased with that. What a glory for him to deploy mighty s400's and threaten Turkey to hit their jets if they do it again. What now? Will they enter Turkish air-space again and try to hit Turkish jets to make sure their violation is done, because you all need to know, Russia Stronk? I would totally agree with Russian claims if they were not famous with their jets doing this for ages, and if Turkey had not warned them not only before the shooting, they have been warned days ago when they violate 3 times in a week. Erdogan wants proof from Putin and says Turkey buys its gas and oil from Russia, Iran, Azerbaijan and Northern Iraq, as well as LNG from Algeria and Qatar in response to some Russian officials claiming that Turkey buys oil from ISIS. This is all happening in the same week The U.S. Treasury Department proves Syrian Regime is the one buying ISIS oil. And Putin is completely silent about that. - Visa free travel is cancelled. - Food restrictions similar to restrictions to EU after Ukraine crisis. 'Everyone understands that each Turkish tomato bought in Auchan (supermarket) or a market is a contribution to yet another missile which will be used to shoot at our boys,' warned Gennadiy Onishchenko, formerly Vladimir Putin's top medical guru, now a key Medvedev aide - Deployment of unnecessary s400s to Syria. Lying about warnings and violation. - Deporting Turkish businessmen out of Russia, call for Russian citizens to come back from Turkey. - Trying to hit Turkish tourism income. (when 100 russian rubles only make 4 Turkish Liras) - Accusing Turkey with some bullshit propaganda See: https://www.rt.com/business/323391-isis-oil-business-turkey-russia/ - Then see this: http://imgz.star.com.tr/imgsdisk/2014/06/16/160620140046315037306_2.jpg (famous kebab restaurant) - Soontobecancelled pipeline project (that was already expected to be cancelled) Are they really unaware that none of these will make Erdogan apology as he is the same breed with Putin, he wants 1v1 in Paris. Hope they make a good swordfight there and never push their egos to our face again. Read more at: http://www.wsj.com/articles/turkeys-erdogan-seeks-meeting-with-putin-1448620798 // http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3334650/Russia-enters-diplomatic-food-fight-Turkey-Putin-tells-shoppers-stop-buying-Turkish-tomatoes-funding-missile-shoot-boys.htmlDont know if its official, here you can listen the warnings while pilot is saying he did not enter turkish air even for a second and he got no warnings at all. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34925823 https://twitter.com/Malcolmite/status/670340972023300097https://twitter.com/Malcolmite/status/670339892484956161 Honest question, I don't pay much attention to these threads usually, so should I ignore this guy and not bother? This kinda seems like so much fun to go through, though. He's what I'd call one of the trouble posters, if that's what you're asking. The US doesn't need or want a conflict with Russia in the MidEast, and none of this paints Turkey in a favorable light ( the "they were warned" BS doesn't reflect the reality of how you deal with this issue). Basically what they want is to stop anyone from escalating. How so? Because that's not what you do when a clearly non-aggressive plane skims past the border for 17 seconds (assuming the Turkish story, still). Just about everyone who knows about airspace violations (including US military leaders) who was asked on this issue confirms that Turkey acted badly.
You know if Russia would just stop flying into NATO airspace all would be good. Yet for the last 5 years all they have done is increase the frequency of these inflammatory flights. Turkey gave them an ultimatum and Russia decided to call their bluff and finally lost their chips. Now that someone finally has had enough and has done something about it they want to play the victim. It's like the kid who keeps poking the dog until the dog finally bites him, then he turns around and cries to mommy.
Did Turkey overreact? Yes. Was Russia asking for it? Yes. What more is there to say? Do you want sympathy for the Russians here or something? I doubt you will find much.
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On November 29 2015 01:00 heliusx wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2015 00:36 LegalLord wrote:On November 29 2015 00:09 silynxer wrote:On November 28 2015 23:29 LegalLord wrote:On November 28 2015 23:22 dfs wrote:On November 28 2015 09:45 lastpuritan wrote:Putin expects official apology, compensation and responsible army men to be fired. ( Its a joke, right? ) http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34941http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34940109Russia is trying to do everything except declaring war over an issue that they are completely WRONG and LYING. Another huge partner and possible ally is turning its back to Russia, and Putin seems eased with that. What a glory for him to deploy mighty s400's and threaten Turkey to hit their jets if they do it again. What now? Will they enter Turkish air-space again and try to hit Turkish jets to make sure their violation is done, because you all need to know, Russia Stronk? I would totally agree with Russian claims if they were not famous with their jets doing this for ages, and if Turkey had not warned them not only before the shooting, they have been warned days ago when they violate 3 times in a week. Erdogan wants proof from Putin and says Turkey buys its gas and oil from Russia, Iran, Azerbaijan and Northern Iraq, as well as LNG from Algeria and Qatar in response to some Russian officials claiming that Turkey buys oil from ISIS. This is all happening in the same week The U.S. Treasury Department proves Syrian Regime is the one buying ISIS oil. And Putin is completely silent about that. - Visa free travel is cancelled. - Food restrictions similar to restrictions to EU after Ukraine crisis. 'Everyone understands that each Turkish tomato bought in Auchan (supermarket) or a market is a contribution to yet another missile which will be used to shoot at our boys,' warned Gennadiy Onishchenko, formerly Vladimir Putin's top medical guru, now a key Medvedev aide - Deployment of unnecessary s400s to Syria. Lying about warnings and violation. - Deporting Turkish businessmen out of Russia, call for Russian citizens to come back from Turkey. - Trying to hit Turkish tourism income. (when 100 russian rubles only make 4 Turkish Liras) - Accusing Turkey with some bullshit propaganda See: https://www.rt.com/business/323391-isis-oil-business-turkey-russia/ - Then see this: http://imgz.star.com.tr/imgsdisk/2014/06/16/160620140046315037306_2.jpg (famous kebab restaurant) - Soontobecancelled pipeline project (that was already expected to be cancelled) Are they really unaware that none of these will make Erdogan apology as he is the same breed with Putin, he wants 1v1 in Paris. Hope they make a good swordfight there and never push their egos to our face again. Read more at: http://www.wsj.com/articles/turkeys-erdogan-seeks-meeting-with-putin-1448620798 // http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3334650/Russia-enters-diplomatic-food-fight-Turkey-Putin-tells-shoppers-stop-buying-Turkish-tomatoes-funding-missile-shoot-boys.htmlDont know if its official, here you can listen the warnings while pilot is saying he did not enter turkish air even for a second and he got no warnings at all. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34925823 https://twitter.com/Malcolmite/status/670340972023300097https://twitter.com/Malcolmite/status/670339892484956161 Honest question, I don't pay much attention to these threads usually, so should I ignore this guy and not bother? This kinda seems like so much fun to go through, though. He's what I'd call one of the trouble posters, if that's what you're asking. The US doesn't need or want a conflict with Russia in the MidEast, and none of this paints Turkey in a favorable light ( the "they were warned" BS doesn't reflect the reality of how you deal with this issue). Basically what they want is to stop anyone from escalating. How so? Because that's not what you do when a clearly non-aggressive plane skims past the border for 17 seconds (assuming the Turkish story, still). Just about everyone who knows about airspace violations (including US military leaders) who was asked on this issue confirms that Turkey acted badly. You know if Russia would just stop flying into NATO airspace all would be good. Yet for the last 5 years all they have done is increase the frequency of these inflammatory flights. Turkey gave them an ultimatum and Russia decided to call their bluff and finally lost their chips. Now that someone finally has had enough and has done something about it they want to play the victim. It's like the kid who keeps poking the dog until the dog finally bites him, then he turns around and cries to mommy. Did Turkey overreact? Yes. Was Russia asking for it? Yes. What more is there to say? Do you want sympathy for the Russians here or something? I doubt you will find much.
You know, if you would stop repeating the same stuff that was explained and rebuked ten times over already all would be good. For the last 5 years (and another 65 years or so prior) NATO planes flew close to or into airspace of other countries, including Russia -- just like USSR / Russia does it. That stuff happens all the time, and usually doesn't end in blown up planes and dead pilots. Erdogan himself insisted a 'minor' violation of airspace is not a reason to shoot down a plane a few years ago when a Turkish plane was blown up by Syrians, over Syria.
Not only that, but Turkey is claiming they didn't even know the plane was Russian when the decision was made to shoot at it, so the whole, 'we warned them before' angle is utter garbage -- for all they knew it could have been a NATO or even a civilian plane, if they truly didn't know whose plane is it. And if they did know it's a Russian plane and they are just lying about lacking ID on it prior to the incident, why would you believe anything else they said about it?
No one is looking for 'sympathy' about this. What pisses people off is the hypocrisy and the double standards of it all. You can't condemn one country for shooting down your plane in their airspace instead of simply escorting it out, then proceed to claim that you are completely justified and basically proud of your decision to blow up someone else's plane which was in your airspace for under 20 seconds.
Oh and by the way, even if you think shooting down a plane is justifiable in these circumstances, shooting at an ejected pilot is a war crime under the Geneva convention. So the Turkish 'friends' are in fact war criminals even without considering anything else they are or might have been involved in. Now what's the problem with bombing the shit out of them?
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Why even bother quoting me if you're not going to respond to anything I've said and continue to repeat your same line for the 100th time?
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On November 29 2015 01:11 Salazarz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2015 01:00 heliusx wrote:On November 29 2015 00:36 LegalLord wrote:On November 29 2015 00:09 silynxer wrote:On November 28 2015 23:29 LegalLord wrote:On November 28 2015 23:22 dfs wrote:On November 28 2015 09:45 lastpuritan wrote:Putin expects official apology, compensation and responsible army men to be fired. ( Its a joke, right? ) http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34941http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34940109Russia is trying to do everything except declaring war over an issue that they are completely WRONG and LYING. Another huge partner and possible ally is turning its back to Russia, and Putin seems eased with that. What a glory for him to deploy mighty s400's and threaten Turkey to hit their jets if they do it again. What now? Will they enter Turkish air-space again and try to hit Turkish jets to make sure their violation is done, because you all need to know, Russia Stronk? I would totally agree with Russian claims if they were not famous with their jets doing this for ages, and if Turkey had not warned them not only before the shooting, they have been warned days ago when they violate 3 times in a week. Erdogan wants proof from Putin and says Turkey buys its gas and oil from Russia, Iran, Azerbaijan and Northern Iraq, as well as LNG from Algeria and Qatar in response to some Russian officials claiming that Turkey buys oil from ISIS. This is all happening in the same week The U.S. Treasury Department proves Syrian Regime is the one buying ISIS oil. And Putin is completely silent about that. - Visa free travel is cancelled. - Food restrictions similar to restrictions to EU after Ukraine crisis. 'Everyone understands that each Turkish tomato bought in Auchan (supermarket) or a market is a contribution to yet another missile which will be used to shoot at our boys,' warned Gennadiy Onishchenko, formerly Vladimir Putin's top medical guru, now a key Medvedev aide - Deployment of unnecessary s400s to Syria. Lying about warnings and violation. - Deporting Turkish businessmen out of Russia, call for Russian citizens to come back from Turkey. - Trying to hit Turkish tourism income. (when 100 russian rubles only make 4 Turkish Liras) - Accusing Turkey with some bullshit propaganda See: https://www.rt.com/business/323391-isis-oil-business-turkey-russia/ - Then see this: http://imgz.star.com.tr/imgsdisk/2014/06/16/160620140046315037306_2.jpg (famous kebab restaurant) - Soontobecancelled pipeline project (that was already expected to be cancelled) Are they really unaware that none of these will make Erdogan apology as he is the same breed with Putin, he wants 1v1 in Paris. Hope they make a good swordfight there and never push their egos to our face again. Read more at: http://www.wsj.com/articles/turkeys-erdogan-seeks-meeting-with-putin-1448620798 // http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3334650/Russia-enters-diplomatic-food-fight-Turkey-Putin-tells-shoppers-stop-buying-Turkish-tomatoes-funding-missile-shoot-boys.htmlDont know if its official, here you can listen the warnings while pilot is saying he did not enter turkish air even for a second and he got no warnings at all. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34925823 https://twitter.com/Malcolmite/status/670340972023300097https://twitter.com/Malcolmite/status/670339892484956161 Honest question, I don't pay much attention to these threads usually, so should I ignore this guy and not bother? This kinda seems like so much fun to go through, though. He's what I'd call one of the trouble posters, if that's what you're asking. The US doesn't need or want a conflict with Russia in the MidEast, and none of this paints Turkey in a favorable light ( the "they were warned" BS doesn't reflect the reality of how you deal with this issue). Basically what they want is to stop anyone from escalating. How so? Because that's not what you do when a clearly non-aggressive plane skims past the border for 17 seconds (assuming the Turkish story, still). Just about everyone who knows about airspace violations (including US military leaders) who was asked on this issue confirms that Turkey acted badly. You know if Russia would just stop flying into NATO airspace all would be good. Yet for the last 5 years all they have done is increase the frequency of these inflammatory flights. Turkey gave them an ultimatum and Russia decided to call their bluff and finally lost their chips. Now that someone finally has had enough and has done something about it they want to play the victim. It's like the kid who keeps poking the dog until the dog finally bites him, then he turns around and cries to mommy. Did Turkey overreact? Yes. Was Russia asking for it? Yes. What more is there to say? Do you want sympathy for the Russians here or something? I doubt you will find much. You know, if you would stop repeating the same stuff that was explained and rebuked ten times over already all would be good. For the last 5 years (and another 65 years or so prior) NATO planes flew close to or into airspace of other countries, including Russia -- just like USSR / Russia does it. That stuff happens all the time, and usually doesn't end in blown up planes and dead pilots. Erdogan himself insisted a 'minor' violation of airspace is not a reason to shoot down a plane a few years ago when a Turkish plane was blown up by Syrians, over Syria. Not only that, but Turkey is claiming they didn't even know the plane was Russian when the decision was made to shoot at it, so the whole, 'we warned them before' angle is utter garbage -- for all they knew it could have been a NATO or even a civilian plane, if they truly didn't know whose plane is it. And if they did know it's a Russian plane and they are just lying about lacking ID on it prior to the incident, why would you believe anything else they said about it? No one is looking for 'sympathy' about this. What pisses people off is the hypocrisy and the double standards of it all. You can't condemn one country for shooting down your plane in their airspace instead of simply escorting it out, then proceed to claim that you are completely justified and basically proud of your decision to blow up someone else's plane which was in your airspace for under 20 seconds. Oh and by the way, even if you think shooting down a plane is justifiable in these circumstances, shooting at an ejected pilot is a war crime under the Geneva convention. So the Turkish 'friends' are in fact war criminals even without considering anything else they are or might have been involved in. Now what's the problem with bombing the shit out of them?
The bolded part is just untrue. Airspace violations (let's say after 1990, outside disputed borders and not due to malfunction or bad weather) are relatively rare and serious and sometimes end up in the shooting down of the violating plane. Last time Russia violated Turkeys airspace the ambassador was called in and nobody at the time said that that was an overreaction. This should give you a little bit of a feeling for how big of a deal airspace violations are in this context.
Btw the newspaper article someone posted earlier about the list of dangerous incidents with Russian planes or something included to my knowledge only two real violations, both in Finish airspace (have to check again though).
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Sanya12364 Posts
It really looks like Turkey was attempting to provide cover for its Turkmen allies in Syria, which Russia continues to bomb. According to turkish sources there are a lot of Turkmen presence in Syria and there is even ambitions of setting up a Turkmen republic in northern Syria.
Russia taking direction action against Turkey might be terrible idea, but if Russia focuses forces to annihilate the entire Turkmen fighting force, it would be a huge counter-blow to Turkey.
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yea, that seems to be the case. from what i read, Erdoğan is looking for a secret meeting with Putin but Putin wants a public apology first.
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On November 29 2015 05:13 xM(Z wrote:
yea, that seems to be the case. from what i read, Erdoğan is looking for a secret meeting with Putin but Putin wants a public apology first.
I guess Erdogan got cold feet now that many Turkish hotel owners fear that millions of Russians won't be coming next year.
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http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/28/vladimir-putin-calls-for-greater-sanctions-against-turkey Russia has announced a package of economic sanctions against Turkey in retaliation for the shooting down of a Russian jet four days ago on the Syrian-Turkish border.
President Vladimir Putin signed a decree outlining the curbs and the details were posted on the Kremlin’s website. Among the measures announced were restrictions on imports of some Turkish goods, a ban on charter flights between the two countries and an an end to Russian tour operators selling trips to Turkey.
It also said Turkish companies operating in Russia and Turkish staff employed by Russian companies will face restrictions and ordered the government to prepare a list of goods, businesses and jobs that would be affected. ...Turkey’s president, Recep Tayyip Erdoğan, has said he does not want to harm relations with such an important trading partner and asked for a meeting with Putin face to face in Paris next week during the climate change summit. Putin wants an apology from Turkey before he will agree to talks. Erdoğan has refused to apologise.
In a speech delivered on Friday in the north-east of the country and broadcast live on television, Erdoğan accused Moscow of “playing with fire” in its Syria operations, although on Saturday before the sanctions were announced, he said he was “saddened” by the shooting down of the jet.
the implications for the people caught in this are pretty fucked up; snippets from aljazeera+ Show Spoiler +http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/11/russia-raiding-turkish-firms-sending-exports-151126143650172.html
"Turkish companies in Russia, particularly construction companies, are being raided," a Turkish executive with a manufacturing company active in Russia told Al Jazeera, on condition of anonymity.
"They check if anyone with expired or no working visas is actively working in these companies or not. They check if working regulations were implemented or not.
"There have been serious breaches in this area within construction companies and Russian authorities know it. Activities of some companies have been frozen on these grounds."Cevdet Seylan, a businessman with trade relations in the city of Kazan, also confirmed that police had been raiding Turkish companies there.Another businessman, who wished to remain anonymous, said that all trucks suspected of carrying Turkish products are asked to wait at the border, regardless of their license plate.
"At the border, they check every single truck, whatever license plate it carries. They check everything about the product," he said.
"They count the products, check their weight, etc, and find an excuse to make them wait or send them back."
Meanwhile, several Turkish citizens confirmed to Al Jazeera that Russia was sending back Turkish tourists trying to enter the country by finding "excuses" and was delaying entry of Turks with work or residence permit. "Police went to our residence addresses, checked our information and then we were allowed to go into the country," Seylan told Al Jazeera.
"On [the evening of] November 24, there have also been raids on Turkish residences and cafes that Turks go to.
"Students and professionals were detained. They were released after being questioned."
- the summary for this incident is(kind of): russians sent their jets/bomber flight paths to US&allies before their did the bombings(they have rules of engagement agreements); turks, acting on previous orders(like and automation), preemptively scrambled their jets to intercept and then shot the russian jets; they shot them(one of them) over Syria.
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Who could have guessed that Putin would be a bad loser.
This is the proverbial table flip after having his bluff called in a game of poker.
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It's really more of an everyone loses situation. Perhaps except Putin and Erdogan themselves who can channel the rise of jingoism to their advantage.
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Erdogan lost big time imo; he was caught with his pants down by this incident, he had no idea it will happen.
his immediate reaction was that he was right, that his military did what they did to defend their country so he was defiant. later, when some details came to light he started to be saddened by the event and said how the planes would have been warned differently if they knew they were Russia's.
i would not be surprised if Erdogan will try and find a scapegoat now, someone inside the airbase turkish jets took off from.
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I might be wrong on this but I heard that there is an outpouring of support in Turkey for Erdogan over this. Like I said Erdogan seems to try to be somewhat conciliatory but I would be surprised if there was an official apology any time soon. Especially since Russia reacted so ridiculously and Turks will probably feel slighted even if they would not agree with shooting down the jet. But let's see.
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EPT
