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I spend a lot of time on reddit, and I'm very accustomed to their "tree-style" commenting system. That is, replies to comments appear under the post they are replying to, and are indented. Comments are ordered by their rating, where better posts are higher in the list. See here for an example: http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/fozgf/all_of_djwheats_shows_are_now_on_hiatus/
I've been thinking about forum formats a lot lately, as I am looking into building one on a site soon. I've noticed that TeamLiquid.net, of course, uses a more traditional linear-style commenting system, where comments appear chronologically, one after another.
Personally, after using reddit a lot, I have come to really enjoy reddit's style over the linear style. However, I realize this format may be unfamiliar to people who are more accustomed to the traditional linear format, such as TL's. So I wanted to find out what people more familiar with linear systems think of reddit's system, and what might be done to improve it or make it easier to use.
What do you think about reddit's tree-like system? Do you find it helpful, or confusing? If you think it's bad, what about it do you not like? If you like it, what do you like?
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I'll be honest, I'm way more used to forums like TL so Reddit took me a while to get used to. It was minimal and the threaded comments were confusing.
Now I'm at the point where I wish I could up and down vote people on TL, but keep the great content on either side (ie calendar, news). I don't know, do you think those can co-exist dodgepong?
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i think both styles have their merit. If there are multiple discussions going on in a thread, I'd prefer the tree style but if you only have one topic of discussion a chronological order is more helpful. The linear style also alows to reply to multiple posts as one.
I'd actually prefer to be able to switch between both but I know that this would lead to different posting behavior in the people who use different styles.
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click the "Poll" button, scroll down to the very bottom!
THERE SHALLITH BEITH NO CHANGES
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On February 21 2011 13:51 gtAbsentis wrote:
I'll be honest, I'm way more used to forums like TL so Reddit took me a while to get used to. It was minimal and the threaded comments were confusing.
Now I'm at the point where I wish I could up and down vote people on TL, but keep the great content on either side (ie calendar, news). I don't know, do you think those can co-exist dodgepong?
Thanks for the feedback. I think the sidebars like on TL with an upvote/downvote system can co-exist, to be sure. The issue, though is between whether the forum content should be listed chronologically or branching out from the comment it is in reply to.
You said that, at first, reddit was confusing. Do you know what, specifically, was confusing about it? What do you think could have helped you become less confused more quickly?
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Sydney2287 Posts
I feel like you get more of a continuous story in a linear forum thread. I can load up a thread from any point in time and know that when the 5th post was made they could only have read posts 1 2 3 and 4. In an ideal world where everyone read the thread before posting, you get to see the different points of view come up in an order and how the posters posting them interact with the differing points of view. You could work this out in a tree-based system but it's significantly more effort.
When I'm reading reddit I feel that it loses out on overall continuity with nested comments. On the other hand you have localised continuity for each topic of discussion regarding the original submission.
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On February 21 2011 13:55 tbrown47 wrote:
click the "Poll" button, scroll down to the very bottom!
THERE SHALLITH BEITH NO CHANGES
I'll be honest, I don't understand what you're trying to say, here. :-/
Are you recommending that I add a poll to my OP?
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Sydney2287 Posts
On February 21 2011 13:58 dodgepong wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2011 13:55 tbrown47 wrote:
click the "Poll" button, scroll down to the very bottom!
THERE SHALLITH BEITH NO CHANGES I'll be honest, I don't understand what you're trying to say, here. :-/ Are you recommending that I add a poll to my OP?
He means go to older polls in the sidebar, scroll to the bottom and look at this poll, which looks to be the 2nd poll ever taken on this site.
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On February 21 2011 13:58 dodgepong wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2011 13:55 tbrown47 wrote:
click the "Poll" button, scroll down to the very bottom!
THERE SHALLITH BEITH NO CHANGES I'll be honest, I don't understand what you're trying to say, here. :-/ Are you recommending that I add a poll to my OP?
no, you see where the polls are at the right panel?
click the word Poll above it and it lists all polls, go to the very bottom :}
edit:
To give an actual opinion, I agree with Bockit. The thread tends to flow more when it is in this format rather than a tree-style format. While there are obvious advantages to both, I believe that for a forum that is meant for discussing strategies, this format works better.
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On February 21 2011 13:57 Bockit wrote:
I feel like you get more of a continuous story in a linear forum thread. I can load up a thread from any point in time and know that when the 5th post was made they could only have read posts 1 2 3 and 4. In an ideal world where everyone read the thread before posting, you get to see the different points of view come up in an order and how the posters posting them interact with the differing points of view. You could work this out in a tree-based system but it's significantly more effort.
When I'm reading reddit I feel that it loses out on overall continuity with nested comments. On the other hand you have localised continuity for each topic of discussion regarding the original submission.
Thanks, those are some great thoughts.
For you personally, do you tend to read through a linear post from start to finish? Or do you scan through for the best posts? Also, which format do you think would be best for the type of discussions one might find in, say, the strategy forums?
Perhaps it boils down to a fundamental difference of understanding of what a forum post is supposed to be like. One disadvantage to the linear style that I have experienced is that sometimes, I don't want to read through all 20 pages of a thread - I want to know what the meat of the discussion is and bypass the fluff. But that means I miss out on the "story" you describe. Is the story worth following in order to get to those best bits, even if a thread is really long?
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I don't think the tree style is good for discussion at all. It seems to be better for lols and for craptastic threads. If reddit is represented by 1 group mindset such as everyone thinks abortion should be illegal/legal you will only get 1 side of the votes because the others are voted down. I have not been on reddit and I do not know if that is the case but how would that problem be avoidable
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1. I agree with Bockit.
2. The reddit system pays its post-linking appearance system with the fact that it looks a bit messy which would be even worse in TL where many posts are big. With 2-liners it looks neat, once you have posts that take a whole screen, the clarity and lucidity gets lost.
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On February 21 2011 14:05 dodgepong wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2011 13:57 Bockit wrote:
I feel like you get more of a continuous story in a linear forum thread. I can load up a thread from any point in time and know that when the 5th post was made they could only have read posts 1 2 3 and 4. In an ideal world where everyone read the thread before posting, you get to see the different points of view come up in an order and how the posters posting them interact with the differing points of view. You could work this out in a tree-based system but it's significantly more effort.
When I'm reading reddit I feel that it loses out on overall continuity with nested comments. On the other hand you have localised continuity for each topic of discussion regarding the original submission. Thanks, those are some great thoughts. For you personally, do you tend to read through a linear post from start to finish? Or do you scan through for the best posts? Also, which format do you think would be best for the type of discussions one might find in, say, the strategy forums? Perhaps it boils down to a fundamental difference of understanding of what a forum post is supposed to be like. One disadvantage to the linear style that I have experienced is that sometimes, I don't want to read through all 20 pages of a thread - I want to know what the meat of the discussion is and bypass the fluff. But that means I miss out on the "story" you describe. Is the story worth following in order to get to those best bits, even if a thread is really long?
In my opinion, it is the responsibility of the reader to ensure that he has read EVERY single post in a discussion-based thread before he posts a reply, whether he is the first responder, or if the thread is 80 pages long. It's just arrogant to think that your post is worthy of being read while not deigning to read others' contributions. Of course this excludes threads along the lines of a live-report, or a youtube thread, but those are relatively few.
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Gonna move this to website feedback in a bit, but I'll leave it here for a few minutes so it doesn't just die. :p
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wat's the link to screddit's forum? i've never been there
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11589 Posts
Another thing to mention about the style that the reddit forums employ is that up/down-voting promotes a general bandwagon-mentality with posting and can easily devolve an argument into a popularity contest. After all, allowing each and every person an ability to affect the visibility of a post creates a system where the biases of the many overrule the often valid points of the minority, leading to more and more people reading like-minded comments and promoting them. I call it the circle-jerk effect.
Obviously, linear/chronological posting is much more favorable, however difficult it may be to keep track of the person you are responding to on a consistent basis in a fast-moving thread. Quoting and post-tracking help this problem quite a bit. While a tree system (sans up/down-voting) would eliminate it altogether, the benefit of being able to contextually identify the basic points of conversations that occur chronologically is just as important to me.
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Just to make a correction, I am not suggesting TL change to tree-style at all. I am just getting a pulse from a community of people who is accustomed to linear-style. This is not website feedback on TL itself, technically speaking. This is feedback on the general philosophy of a forum.
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Sydney2287 Posts
On February 21 2011 14:05 dodgepong wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2011 13:57 Bockit wrote:
I feel like you get more of a continuous story in a linear forum thread. I can load up a thread from any point in time and know that when the 5th post was made they could only have read posts 1 2 3 and 4. In an ideal world where everyone read the thread before posting, you get to see the different points of view come up in an order and how the posters posting them interact with the differing points of view. You could work this out in a tree-based system but it's significantly more effort.
When I'm reading reddit I feel that it loses out on overall continuity with nested comments. On the other hand you have localised continuity for each topic of discussion regarding the original submission. Thanks, those are some great thoughts. For you personally, do you tend to read through a linear post from start to finish? Or do you scan through for the best posts? Also, which format do you think would be best for the type of discussions one might find in, say, the strategy forums? Perhaps it boils down to a fundamental difference of understanding of what a forum post is supposed to be like. One disadvantage to the linear style that I have experienced is that sometimes, I don't want to read through all 20 pages of a thread - I want to know what the meat of the discussion is and bypass the fluff. But that means I miss out on the "story" you describe. Is the story worth following in order to get to those best bits, even if a thread is really long?
I mostly start reading a topic from the start post by post. Whether I finish doing so is up to how the thread turns out. If a topic is one where all you're reading is 'I like to use a toothbrush to clean my teeth' and variations of such over and over again, each post a couple of lines I'll probably jump ahead a few pages and see if any discussion has evolved on techniques of brushing your teeth, or people are telling amusing stories about bathroom habits, etc.
If I can tell that a topic will end up repetitive with no poster interaction (You can usually tell) I'll either not read it at all or start from the end to see if there is anything interesting going on. If I find something then I'll go backwards to its source and start from there.
I think you have a good point about tree discussions fitting something like a strategy forum. Discussion on something like that can be quite localised, e.g.talking about specific parts of a game or the player's macro, so something that allows for posts to be organised in such a manner makes sense. Whether or not it works out I don't know.
I do believe the story of the thread is worth having to trek through the pages. As I just mentioned though if nothing is happening interesting it can make sense to skim ahead. I think it helps build a sense of community in the sense that you get to know the other posters faster than you would in a tree based system. It's possible I'm being influenced by my bias with that last point though.
The major drawback of a tree-based system with up and down votes is that people will vote based on their agreement with a post rather than what it contributes to the discussion. One thing I've learnt reading TL over the years is that people can hold diametrically opposed views on seemingly black and white issues that after reading both sides of the argument you find it difficult to say which side you fall on. In a system where people tend to vote for what they agree with rather than the quality of the post, one of these positions in such a situation usually tends to disappear. If you can find a way to solve this problem however, you've lost my major grievance with tree and vote-based comment systems.
Another drawback of the tree system is that you can only reply to one post with one post. You can of course reference other posts by mentioning them or by quoting them, but the association the reader gets when reading a post is that this post is a reply to its parent. In a single-threaded situation replies are to the thread in general, in my opinion allowing for a broader range of content to be discussed.
All this said, there are some examples I know of already of tree based systems other than reddit which actually work out very well. Based on the same principles of tree-based comments combined with up and down votes, HackerNews has some of the most interesting discussions on an albeit focused subject matter. Though maybe that it's relatively focused content makes it a good model for something such as a strategy forum like you mention.
EDIT: Spelling and grammar.
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On February 21 2011 14:36 dodgepong wrote:
Just to make a correction, I am not suggesting TL change to tree-style at all. I am just getting a pulse from a community of people who is accustomed to linear-style. This is not website feedback on TL itself, technically speaking. This is feedback on the general philosophy of a forum.
Ok I'll just leave it here then :p
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On February 21 2011 14:39 Bockit wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2011 14:05 dodgepong wrote:On February 21 2011 13:57 Bockit wrote:
I feel like you get more of a continuous story in a linear forum thread. I can load up a thread from any point in time and know that when the 5th post was made they could only have read posts 1 2 3 and 4. In an ideal world where everyone read the thread before posting, you get to see the different points of view come up in an order and how the posters posting them interact with the differing points of view. You could work this out in a tree-based system but it's significantly more effort.
When I'm reading reddit I feel that it loses out on overall continuity with nested comments. On the other hand you have localised continuity for each topic of discussion regarding the original submission. Thanks, those are some great thoughts. For you personally, do you tend to read through a linear post from start to finish? Or do you scan through for the best posts? Also, which format do you think would be best for the type of discussions one might find in, say, the strategy forums? Perhaps it boils down to a fundamental difference of understanding of what a forum post is supposed to be like. One disadvantage to the linear style that I have experienced is that sometimes, I don't want to read through all 20 pages of a thread - I want to know what the meat of the discussion is and bypass the fluff. But that means I miss out on the "story" you describe. Is the story worth following in order to get to those best bits, even if a thread is really long? I mostly start reading a topic from the start post by post. Whether I finish doing so is up to how the thread turns out. If a topic is one where all you're reading is 'I like to use a toothbrush to clean my teeth' and variations of such over and over again, each post a couple of lines I'll probably jump ahead a few pages and see if any discussion has evolved on techniques of brushing your teeth, or people are telling amusing stories about bathroom habits, etc. If I can tell that a topic will end up repetitive with no poster interaction (You can usually tell) I'll either not read it at all or start from the end to see if there is anything interesting going on. If I find something then I'll go backwards to its source and start from there. I think you have a good point about tree discussions fitting something like a strategy forum. Discussion on something like that can be quite localised, e.g.talking about specific parts of a game or the player's macro, so something that allows for posts to be organised in such a manner makes sense. Whether or not it works out I don't know. I do believe the story of the thread is worth having to trek through the pages. As I just mentioned though if nothing is happening interesting it can make sense to skim ahead. I think it helps build a sense of community in the sense that you get to know the other posters faster than you would in a tree based system. It's possible I'm being influenced by my bias with that last point though. The major drawback of a tree-based system with up and down votes is that people will vote based on their agreement with a post rather than what it contributes to the discussion. One thing I've learnt reading TL over the years is that people can hold diametrically opposed views on seemingly black and white issues that after reading both sides of the argument you find it difficult to say which side you fall on. In a system where people tend to vote for what they agree with rather than the quality of the post, one of these positions in such a situation usually tends to disappear. If you can find a way to solve this problem however, you've lost my major grievance with tree and vote-based comment systems. Another drawback of the tree system is that you can only reply to one post with one post. You can of course reference other posts by mentioning them or by quoting them, but the association the reader gets when reading a post is that this post is a reply to its parent. In a single-threaded situation replies are to the thread in general, in my opinion allowing for a broader range of content to be discussed. All this said, there are some examples I know of already of tree based systems other than reddit which actually work out very well. Based on the same principles of tree-based comments combined with up and down votes, HackerNews has some of the most interesting discussions on an albeit focused subject matter. Though maybe that its relatively focused content makes it a good model for something such as a strategy forum like you mention. EDIT: Spelling and grammar.
Thank you, this is exactly the kind of feedback I was hoping I would find here. If I were on reddit, I would upvote you. 
To others reading the thread, keep it coming. This is very insightful.
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The linear style allows for very long-lived threads. All the most current discussion is gathered at the end, while a tree would have a branch with a lot of upvotes at the top while the most recent discussion would either be very far down the branch or in a separate branch. It's often easier just to start a new tree altogether if you plan on having a large discussion, while a thread can evolve very quickly in response to new developments and still serve its original purpose.
Another feature that I haven't seen mentioned is that you can reply to multiple posts with one post. If you start a thread about a new build and many people have similar questions, you can answer them in a clarifying post without having to reply to each individual post. When you replying to a thread, you're in some sense replying to everyone who posted before you.
The best part of the linear style is that it keeps chronologically relevant discussion together. Live report threads are a perfect example of this, and it's very easy to follow the match through the thread, with predictions at the start and discussion about the outcome at the end. If something happens like a nuke goes off, all the related posts are gathered right around the point it happened instead of in a separate branch with little context.
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I hate Treestyle.
I'm just not used to it, no forum i know except reddit, which i don't really frequent, uses it... It seems to me like a "style" from the dark ages of the Internet.
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It's far better. I find it very hard to want to participate in discussion on TL as most replies just seem lost anyway. With such a big community I just don't think it works well enough. ESR probably has the best comment system, similar to reddit.
On TL the only thing I can do is search for my own name to look for someone quoting me.
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why change what isn't broken? I'm all for new ideas but the site layout is so simple which is great on the eyes.
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the tree system looks more dated , it was fine in the early 90s but we've moved on
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EPT
