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Off topic discussion and argumentative back and forth will not be tolerated. | ||
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mstan
Romania17 Posts
http://english.aljazeera.net/mritems/Documents/2011/3/29/2011329113923943811The Interim Transitional National Council Statement.pdf and a small rant + Show Spoiler + and please escuse users from former soviet countries for their criticism of america, we are fighting some serious corruption here and its easy to blame it all on capitalism | ||
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Ganondorf
Italy600 Posts
On March 29 2011 23:38 RvB wrote: I've never said any of that I only said that your comparison by taking Shell and Lybian oil is wrong I also gave you a better comparison. "A better comparison would be the gas the Netherlands has which gets exported. The profits go to the government which does get reinvested in all kind of things." Governmental profit in NL goes back to the population while a big part of the oil profit from Lybia goes into Gadaffi's pocket that was my point nothing more nothing less. More updates: source: http://blogs.aljazeera.net/live/africa/libya-live-blog-march-29 Nato is impartial, but the US or France can take sides and sell weapons to the rebels. That would break the arms embargo, but i don't know if that's a big deal, since it would be done by the countries enforcing said embargo to protect civilians from being overrun and killed. It is not in the interest of anyone to have a divided Libya or a stalemate. There are only 2 possible outcomes, either the rebels win or they make a deal with Qaddafi, which will imply him leaving the country. The air campaign seems to be slowing down, in 3 days the Trapani airport will have civilian flights again, it is being used exclusively for military operations right now. | ||
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xbankx
703 Posts
On March 30 2011 03:46 mstan wrote: and yet the rebels have an official political agenda (relased today), looks quite democratic to me http://english.aljazeera.net/mritems/Documents/2011/3/29/2011329113923943811The Interim Transitional National Council Statement.pdf and a small rant + Show Spoiler + and please escuse users from former soviet countries for their criticism of america, we are fighting some serious corruption here and its easy to blame it all on capitalism Its just politics. They need to release these to gain the "moral" support of people in Europe. I doubt any will be true. Its just like when people supported the communist in China when they overthrew the government. The communist promised to redistribute land to farmers and in the end they never followed through. I really believe that if truly the majority of people support the rebels, they will win even without foreign support. Just like how despite the fact KMT(the government in China before communist took over) was support by the US. The people supported the communists and they overthrew KMT and took over the government. | ||
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mstan
Romania17 Posts
I really believe that if truly the majority of people support the rebels, they will win even without foreign support. Just like how despite the fact KMT was support by the US. The people supported the communists and they overthrew KMT and took over the government yes, and half of europe 60 years ago really supported communists ... organized army >> popular will, at least since they invented machine guns and of course every word is just politics, every video just propaganda, every libian telling his story just irrelevant also since some were mentioning foreign workers from libya, i remember one our tvs had an interview with a returning doctor from benghazi and she said "if you ask me what gaddafi is doing is simply genocide" | ||
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{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
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Petruccio
90 Posts
To tell the truth I was happy when it is all started in Libya. The people are finally tired of bloody dictator and miserable life and began their uprising. Gaddafi answers: "it is al-Qaeda(now it is very popular to blame al-Qaeda for everything) and some drugged youth (oh man this is too much obvious lie)". Then bombing the mutinous cities, killing hundreds of people. This bustard ids ready to kill half of his people just to be able to rule the other half. Then army reject to shoot their people and takes rebels side. The world demands to stop massacre of his own people. And it looks like the days of Gaddafi are already counted. Actually I knew nada about Libya before. Somewhere in my mind it has image of a typical poor country with a dictator and miserable people. Then I started to learn. Iread about what is life in Lybia. Wikipedia facts, expats discussions, travellers stories... It turned out that the people are not miserable, there was no economical background to start the revolution. Gaddafi has his enemies of cause. It is the tribe that ruled before Gaddafi, it is radical Islamic group al-Qaeda (guess where are these? on East), but the most of people have normal life with a lot of help from state. Then I found out that west corporations make almost no profit out of the country. The money stays inside. Then I started to look for an alternative point of view on the situation. Most of the articles were in russian. And now I have builded up my point of view. I new that bombing Yugoslavia was not the right thing to do, I know that that the campaign in Iraq as no about weapons of mass destruction. But I did not care after all. Saddam was a bad man anyway, killing ~100 people each year (USA killed 106.000, but heym it is i n the name of democracy and freedom). But this time with Lybia is different. The situation is not over and I know in advance that USA and al-Qaeda wants Gaddafi out no matter what, they will lie, they will kill people, they just want to reach their goal. I am araid even without the resolution USA will start the campaign. Or they just give arms, air support and some professionals to help the opposition. I am afraid it is not only about oil. it looks like USA wants to destabilize the region and help radical Islamic groups like al-Qaeda to grow. You now USA financed and cooperated with al-Qaeda, don't you? Why would they want it? I dunno... Maybe they want to start Third World War... They invest so much into military forces. There are more and more voices about western media lie in the last days. NATO has to start ground operation if they want to remove Gaddafi. The rebels, even reinforced with al-Qaeda men, are too weak. They do not have people support also. The sly dictator made people life better and gave some power to local tribes leaders so they could manage their local life. This is maybe the biggest reason why he is 40+ years in charge. Libya is not a police state. | ||
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Petruccio
90 Posts
There are more and more information in internet about the real situation in Libya. Just search and find. I know, it is nothing but shocking to discover that West lies and Gaddafi says truth. But remember, West is not about democracy and human rights, it is all about the money. The money is our god. How does USA make money? They just print them! What a business! And USA will do everything to protect this business. | ||
Kipsate
Netherlands45349 Posts
Also, the USA does not make money by just printing them goddamnit, that is the single most stupid thing I have read here so far. Printing more money=bad for the economy too. | ||
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Kukaracha
France1954 Posts
On a side note Petruccio, if you want to look more serious, you should post more sources. Just more, different sources. From different origins A quick metaphor: there is a murder, and 10 witnesses. 9 out of 10 say it's man A who killed man B (the victim). But the last one, an old crazy grandma, claims it was space aliens who came from the sky to shoot the killing blow. When confronting the judges, do you simply ask the crazy grandma and her family what happened? No, you'll eventually try to find other people, elsewhere, who say the same thing. But first of all, you will cast a bigger doubt on what the crazy grandma says because A) she's crazy, B) she's the only one to say this. | ||
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Petruccio
90 Posts
There are plenty of information in internet about life in general in Libya. They have internet access, there are many western and Russian people working. Look for information created before the uprising of cause. It looks strange for me that people who has good standards of livings and a lot of social security and benefits want their leader out. Al Qaeda base in east of Libya - wikileaks, but generally it is a already well known fact highlighted even by western media. Al Qaeda among the rebels - there is already the link in the tread. Who are the rebels and want do they want, besides killing Gaddafi and very abstract recent document about democracy, human rights etc. - even western media does not answer. No bombing of civilians - there is no evidence of bombing, just some strange footage of burned bodies. Russian satellites did not record the bombing. You know they can check what time is it on your wristwatch, don't you? Well, Russia can lie too, but anyway we have another point of view, as good as the first one. There were no protests against Gaddafi in Tripoli. Russian/Ukrainians coming from Tripoli say it is calm and no protests. Cannot imagine they all lie. I understand it may be hard to find out what is going on being limited just to western media. I believe being a bit skeptic never hurts. | ||
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iPlaY.NettleS
Australia4329 Posts
Wow, That Was Fast! Libyan Rebels Have Already Established New Central Bank Of Libya By 21st Century Wire The Economic Collapse March 29, 2011 The rebels in Libya are in the middle of a life or death civil war and Moammar Gadhafi is still in power and yet somehow the Libyan rebels have had enough time to establish a new Central Bank of Libya and form a new national oil company. Perhaps when this conflict is over those rebels can become time management consultants. They sure do get a lot done. What a skilled bunch of rebels – they can fight a war during the day and draw up a new central bank and a new national oil company at night without any outside help whatsoever. If only the rest of us were so versatile! But isn’t forming a central bank something that could be done after the civil war is over? According to Bloomberg, the Transitional National Council has “designated the Central Bank of Benghazi as a monetary authority competent in monetary policies in Libya and the appointment of a governor to the Central Bank of Libya, with a temporary headquarters in Benghazi.” Apparently someone felt that it was very important to get pesky matters such as control of the banks and control of the money supply out of the way even before a new government is formed. Of course it is probably safe to assume that the new Central Bank of Libya will be 100% owned and 100% controlled by the newly liberated people of Libya, isn’t it? Most people don’t realize that the previous Central Bank of Libya was 100% state owned. The following is an excerpt from Wikipedia’s article on the former Central Bank of Libya…. The Central Bank of Libya (CBL) is 100% state owned and represents the monetary authority in The Great Socialist People’s Libyan Arab Jamahiriya and enjoys the status of autonomous corporate body. The law establishing the CBL stipulates that the objectives of the central bank shall be to maintain monetary stability in Libya , and to promote the sustained growth of the economy in accordance with the general economic policy of the state. Since the old Central Bank of Libya was state owned, it was essentially under the control of Moammar Gadhafi. But now that Libya is going to be “free”, the new Central Bank of Libya will be run by Libyans and solely for the benefit of Libyans, right? Of course it is probably safe to assume that will be the case with the new national oil company as well, isn’t it? Over the past couple of years, Moammar Gadhafi had threatened to nationalize the oil industry in Libya and kick western oil companies out of the country, but now that Libya will be “free” the people of Libya will be able to work hand in hand with “big oil” and this will create a better Libya for everyone. Right? Of course oil had absolutely nothing to do with why the U.S. “inva—” (scratch that) “initiated a kinetic humanitarian liberty action” in Libya. When Barack Obama looked straight into the camera and told the American people that the war in Libya is in the “strategic interest” of the United States, surely he was not referring to oil. After all, war for oil was a “Bush thing”, right? The Democrats voted for Obama to end wars like this, right? Surely no prominent Democrats will publicly support this war in Libya, right? Surely Barack Obama will end the bombing of Libya if the international community begins to object, right? Obama won a Nobel Peace Prize. He wouldn’t deeply upset the other major powers on the globe and bring us closer to World War III, would he? Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov has loudly denounced “coalition strikes on columns of Gaddafi’s forces” and he believes that the U.S. has badly violated the terms of the UN Security Council resolution…. “We consider that intervention by the coalition in what is essentially an internal civil war is not sanctioned by the U.N. Security Council resolution.” So to cool off rising tensions with the rest of the world, Obama is going to call off the air strikes, right? Well, considering the fact that Obama has such vast foreign policy experience we should all be able to rest easy knowing that Obama will understand exactly what to do. Meanwhile, the rebels seem to be getting the hang of international trade already. They have even signed an oil deal with Qatar! Rebel “spokesman” Ali Tarhouni has announced that oil exports to Qatar will begin in “less than a week“. Who knew that the rag tag group of rebels in Libya were also masters of banking and international trade? We sure do live in a strange world. Tonight, Barack Obama told the American people the following…. “Some nations may be able to turn a blind eye to atrocities in other countries. The United States of America is different.” So now we are going to police all of the atrocities in all of the other countries around the globe? The last time I checked, the government was gunning down protesters in Syria. Is it time to start warming up the Tomahawks? Or do we reserve “humanitarian interventions” only for those nations that have a lot of oil? In fact, atrocities are currently being committed all over Africa and in about a dozen different nations in the Middle East. Should we institute a draft so that we will have enough young men and women to police the world with? We all have to be ready to serve our country, right? The world is becoming a smaller place every day, and you never know where U.S. “strategic interests” are going to be threatened next. The rest of the world understands that we know best, right? Of course the rest of the world can surely see our good intentions in Libya, can’t they? Tensions with Russia, China and the rest of the Arab world are certainly going to subside after they all see how selfless our “humanitarian intervention” has been in Libya, don’t you think? In all seriousness, we now live in a world where nothing is stable anymore. Wars and revolutions are breaking out all over the globe, unprecedented natural disasters are happening with alarming frequency and the global economy is on the verge of total collapse. By interfering in Libya, we are just making things worse. Gadhafi is certainly a horrible dictator, but this was a fight for the Libyan people to sort out. We promised the rest of the world that we were only going to be setting up a “no fly zone”. By violating the terms of the UN Security Council resolution, we have shown other nations that we cannot be trusted and by our actions we have increased tensions all over the globe. | ||
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Petruccio
90 Posts
This is a western media. http://www.nationalpost.com/news/world/Libyan rebels Islamist ties cause concern report/4524753/story.html | ||
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Keniji
Netherlands2569 Posts
On March 30 2011 19:04 Petruccio wrote: [...] How does USA make money? They just print them! What a business! And USA will do everything to protect this business. what? this part really takes away all your credibility. | ||
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xM(Z
Romania5281 Posts
On March 30 2011 21:26 Keniji wrote: what? this part really takes away all your credibility. and what you said only shows that you dont know that much. there were threads on TL about US "just printing out money". look them up. brits did the same and i think they started the trend. | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10688 Posts
On some level every sate is printing money and "overprinting" is a possible (short term) solution to certain economic problems as long as you don't overdo it (it's not a "good" solution but it can help). seriously... Do you guys even think before you post or do you just blatantly slay everything that is in some way pro western? And btw... So the Old central bank of Lybia was State owned... Which means Ghadaffi owned. I don't know if it was the right thing to intervene there (alltough i think it was), but the blatant bashing some people are doing here has less to do with reality than the Western and Ghadaffi propaganda combined. | ||
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Petruccio
90 Posts
On March 30 2011 21:26 Keniji wrote: what? this part really takes away all your credibility. I do not need our credibility. I am asking to collect information from different sources and analyze it. Well, it is a different topic how world economy works and what role US dollar plays in it. Again, there is plenty information in internet if one wants to learn. I suggest to watch a famous movies "Zeitgeist", skipping the part about religion, and focusing on the part about Federal reserve system and banks in general. The movie has 3 parts and the first one about religion is a bullshit. The other 2 sound very reasonably. This is an example how from one source may come information of different quality. | ||
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iPlaY.NettleS
Australia4329 Posts
On March 30 2011 21:49 Velr wrote: Ahm... On some level every sate is printing money and "overprinting" is a possible (short term) solution to certain economic problems as long as you don't overdo it (it's not a "good" solution but it can help). How does printing money help? Oh i get it , it helps if you are heavily invested in gold and silver. | ||
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winter017
United States103 Posts
Also rebels appear to be in full retreat. | ||
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HellRoxYa
Sweden1614 Posts
On March 30 2011 22:28 Petruccio wrote: I do not need our credibility. I am asking to collect information from different sources and analyze it. Well, it is a different topic how world economy works and what role US dollar plays in it. Again, there is plenty information in internet if one wants to learn. I suggest to watch a famous movies "Zeitgeist", skipping the part about religion, and focusing on the part about Federal reserve system and banks in general. The movie has 3 parts and the first one about religion is a bullshit. The other 2 sound very reasonably. This is an example how from one source may come information of different quality. Maybe they do but they aren't. Also, in general when you can make sweeping statements like you just did about the movies first part being pure bullshit, it lowers the credibility of any other information (or "facts") being presented in the movie. Now please take your truther bs out of this thread and let people who report on Libya continue to do so. Edit: I should add that you absolutely need credibility if you're going to argue something. If what you say has no credibility it's worth nothing. | ||
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Zealotdriver
United States1557 Posts
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