Libyan Uprising - Page 115

On August 21 2011 06:52 zalz wrote:


Do you actually have an example of someone convicted for war crimes who should not have received such a punishment?

There are millions of soldiers, officers and higher ups who walked away from wars, being on the losing side, without as much as a fine, whilst having been processed by the law.


To suggest that post-war trials are cheap PR tricks to wreak some final vengeance on the enemy leadership is simply ridiculous.

The problem is that you create a ridiculous mental loop where:


1) If a person is convicted for war crimes, this is wrong. Wether the person is guilty of war crimes is not relevant, it is always vengeance rather then law.

2) If a person receives a low sentence then this is not due to the correct process of law but rather a PR move.


Nothing that a war tribunal does can convince you. They are damned if they do and damned if they don't. That circular logic is perhaps enough to convince yourself of these things but it really falls apart when others really look at it.

Finally it's a disturbing thing to say because more often then not it's advocating releasing actuall war criminals who did horrible things, just because you believe that the whole world is corrupt.

On August 21 2011 07:09 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:

Trial of the Six. Supporters of Venizelos stage a coup and overthrow the Greek government. The top 6 leaders of the overthrown administration were sentenced to death for alleged claims treason, persecution, human rights violations, false propaganda, war crimes against Greek (their own) soldiers and civilians in Anatolia, and other things, all of which were by and large entirely false. Yeah, that sort of invalidates your argument .

If war crimes trials were remotely fair to those on trial and also included conquerors and not just the conquered (I'm sorry, but this doesn't happen in real life), much of the government of UK and US and the administrations of some corporations would be on trial just for events in the past decade. Idk, but it helps to be a bit objective.

On August 21 2011 07:03 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:


Well I wasn't talking about the holocaust specifically, but it seems that to the original point to which I replied about conquerors rewriting history, I'm quite certain people have been arrested for saying that such things (including holocaust) are exaggerated and backing up certain points of contention, have been arrested. To those authorities and lobby groups, just so you know, questioning is the same as denial.

Have you heard of Galileo and his clashes with the church? Same scenario pretty much.

If there was nothing to hide, even if people did straight up deny stuff, no such laws should exist. They are completely unjustified. Since you specifically brought up WW2, why have academics who have made factual claims of exaggerations of events of the war been persecuted? Is something being hidden (this seems more than likely)?

Isn't Germany a country of democratic principles and liberties? Granted such laws were imposed upon them by the victors of WW2, but it makes no sense to have them, unless they are specifically in place to hide something, and suppress research and discussion. Quite the same in Turkey. The point is that such laws cannot be justified unless it's explicitly meant to suppress thoughts and ideas and research on matters political and other groups don't want people to be messing in. It's like justifying North Korean political stifling, because it works the same way (but on an obviously much larger scale).

In fact, iirc, people back before the late 80s could get in trouble for saying that the facts show that the Soviets did Katyn, not the Germans (or otherwise rejecting that the Germans didn't do it). Fortunately, Gorbachev went nuts and released a lot of classified documents which said it was the USSR. But yeah, before then, making a factual and rational case that the old Katyn story was flawed could get you in trouble, and would fit into what you call denying.

Another example is the soap and lampshade story, which has been held up as pure truth until recently. By now, it's largely been disposed of. How did these two of many possible falsities and exaggerations come about? The simple point that cari-kira made: conquerors write history.

Btw, you brought up WW2 war crimes, so that's why I discussed that, but if you want to talk about other bs'ing and political suppression from whenever and wherever, we can do that as well.

Again going back to kira's point, I also have no doubt that had the Germans won, a ton of things would have been exaggerated about the Russians and it would be a felony to question, think about, or reject (all of these would be put in the category of denying, of course) possibly exaggerated versions of Russian war crimes.

The point is: Not having thought-crime laws in Germany isn't going to make people fucking brain-damaged nazis or whatever (this is the pathetic justification given for those laws), but I have no doubt it's going to lead to a lot of academia that's going to uncover things that will lead to a much bigger shock than it was to the US public that it was indeed false that Iraq had no WMDs, and that Iraq which was the one of the most determined fighters against Islamic extremism (like defeating one of the greatest jihads since the 600s in the Iran-Iraq War) had no ties to Al Qaeda either.

Libyan opposition fighters are in a fierce gun battle with forces loyal to Muammar Gaddafi inside the Mitiga airbase in Tripoli's Tajoura district - Reuters

Heavy gunfire rang out near the Tripoli hotel where members of the foreign media are staying, says Reuters correspondent,

The reporter said it sounded like a burst of automatic gunfire.

As the front line moves closer to the Libyan capital, field hospitals are short of resources and the government blames the West for the casualties.

A spokesman for the Muammar Gaddafi’s government blamed the West for the casualties saying they don't care about the human costs of the six month war. - Reuters

NATO says the situation in Libya is changing quickly and it is becoming more difficult to identify and engage targets for airstrikes as the uprising against Muammar Gaddafi gains momentum.

NATO spokesman Colonel Roland Lavoie says he can't confirm that because the situation on the ground had become so fluid in recent days that it's difficult to track all developments.

He says "there is no longer a traditional front line as we had in other phases of the conflict."

BREAKING! #FF have entered #Ashia #Gaddafi's house, took good amount of weapons & 4x4 cars. Confirmed #Tripoli

AJA Call w/fighter from Souq Al jumaa #Tripoli: we are advancing toward Mitiga AFB from the west. #Libya.

AP alerts ---- TRIPOLI, Libya (AP) - Libya rebels reach western outskirts of capital Tripoli, meeting no resistance as they advance.

reports that they've taken the television station!!! Please be true #libya #tripoli

On August 22 2011 04:18 Traeon wrote:
Both sides have engaged in misinformation tactics before, so I wouldn't really take anything seriously until a few days have passed at least.

On August 22 2011 04:19 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:


This being confirmed by Journalists, as well as Diplomats who can still hear gunfire from their hotels.

On August 21 2011 19:55 Saji wrote:
"Eyewitnesses dismiss rebel advances on Tripoli as misinformation"

Reports of tracer bullets and explosions over the Libyan capital have sparked rumours of the imminent defeat of Colonel Gaddafi and his regime. However, it turns out the shots were fired in celebration at a victory for Gaddafi loyalists.

On Saturday evening, rounds were fired close to a hotel hosting foreign journalists. Explosions were also heard in the area as NATO aircraft carried out heavy bombing runs after nightfall, the Associated Press reported.

Rebels were reported to be fighting in the city's Tajoura neighbourhood, as well as near Tripoli’s international airport. There have been reports that fighting also broke out in the neighborhoods of Soug Jomaa and Arada in the east. The NATO-backed rebels in Libya claimed that a battle for the capital Tripoli could unfold by the end of the month, as they have now taken control of key cities around the Gaddafi stronghold.

However, all these reports have proven false.

The director of Americans for Middle East Peace, Dr Franklin Lamb, who is in Tripoli right now, informed RT that reports of the rebels having entered Tripoli are nonsense, though sporadic gunfire is indeed being heard from time to time.

According to Dr Lamb, the real danger is posed by NATO planes that drop bombs and fire missiles at the city hourly.

On Saturday evening, rounds were fired close to a hotel hosting foreign journalists. Explosions were also heard in the area as NATO aircraft carried out heavy bombing runs after nightfall, the Associated Press reported.

Rebels were reported to be fighting in the city's Tajoura neighbourhood, as well as near Tripoli’s international airport. There have been reports that fighting also broke out in the neighborhoods of Soug Jomaa and Arada in the east. The NATO-backed rebels in Libya claimed that a battle for the capital Tripoli could unfold by the end of the month, as they have now taken control of key cities around the Gaddafi stronghold.

However, all these reports have proven false.

In an audio tape aired on state TV, Colonel Gaddafi congratulated his supporters.

Independent journalist Lizzie Phelan says the reports are an effort by NATO to create panic.

“The only gunfire that we are hearing is celebratory gunfire,” she said. “And the only explosions that we are hearing are NATO air strikes or NATO sound bombs, which are clearly designed to create a sense of panic in the capital city of Tripoli.”

Phelan said that the Libyan rebels created fake footage of themselves in Zawiya and Tripoli, and were aided in disseminating the footage by, among other media outlets, Al Jazeera. The Qatar-based satellite television station, she argued, has been at the center of the media conspiracy against Libya. The Western mainstream media, she continued, in turn picked up these reports and repeated them, creating a sense of panic among the Libyan people.

“Later on in the areas like Soug Jomaa, after the prayers, a number of armed gangs emerged, which are essentially sleeper cells of rebels inside the city, and began firing randomly and threatening ordinary people, that if they did not join them they would be assassinated,” she said. “They then took footage of the empty streets, which created the sense that they were in the process of capturing the city.”

Many people in Tripoli have been armed by the government and these people came out to defend their capital, she added.

“The government spokesman came out and insisted that the situation had been brought under control,” Phelan claimed. “As a result, now in Green Square the masses have come out because they feel safe again and they are letting off celebratory gunfire and fireworks. Muammar Gaddafi spoke to the masses live via phone, because there have been reports that he fled the country.”

Political analyst Mahdi Nazemroaya says that the gunfire in the Libyan capital is sporadic and disorganized, and that its main purpose is to break down the morale of the population.

“The main point of the attacks in Tripoli is to break down the morale here and cause panic,” he said. “The media here at the hotel where I am staying has been part of this disinformation
campaign. They just want to feed the panic here and want the regime to collapse. They are fueling and feeding this psychological war against this country.”

(Source RT http://rt.com/news/rebels-attack-tripoli-misinformation-795/)

On August 22 2011 05:15 Maenander wrote:

Funny how they deleted that article from their site after they have been proven wrong. Celebratory gunfire should have given them a hint

BREAKING: TRIPOLI freedom fighters have attacked and liberated OVER 5,000 political prisoners from Jdaida prison. HUGE celebrations #libya

Caller on AJA is saying there is a rumor that Gaddafi has been captured. <- VERY UNCONFIRMED #Libya #Tripoli

On August 22 2011 05:18 Saji wrote:


lol your right shit is hitting the fan now actually they changed the url

its this now http://rt.com/news/rebels-attack-tripoli-misinformation-795/

I wonder how much people are dying at this moment

AJA reporting that Qaddafi's personal bodyguards have surrendered.

Huge celebrations underway in Benghazi #Libya #Benghazi

#Breaking - Aljazeera Arabic confirming opposition fighters are in Green Square #LIbya

On August 22 2011 05:18 Saji wrote:


lol your right shit is hitting the fan now actually they changed the url

its this now http://rt.com/news/rebels-attack-tripoli-misinformation-795/

I wonder how much people are dying at this moment

On August 22 2011 05:43 zalz wrote:


Is that a branch of the North-Korean news agency or something? I do hope you don't actually believe that stuff.