• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 19:56
CEST 01:56
KST 08:56
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL22] Finals Preview: Sweet Victory!9[ASL22] Ro4 Preview: Mirror Mirror6[ASL22] Ro8 Preview: Within Reach5[ASL22] Ro8 Preview: In A Tizzy11[ASL22] Ro16 Preview: Holy Diver5
Community News
[$1250] International ShieldBattery League28Weekly Cups (October 5-11): Farewell to 5.0.162Rollback Netcode in Brood War1265.0.17 Patch Notes - October 7, 202624Weekly Cups Results (Sep 28-Oct 4)0
StarCraft 2
General
Server Blocker Terran AddOns placement SCII needs to put more weight on strategy and tact How do you feel about the mass reverts in the 5.0.17 PTR? Team Liquid Map Contest #22: Results and Winners
Tourneys
Stellar Fest TWO the Moon (Dec 16-20) Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament Master Swan Open (Global Bronze-Master 2) $3,500 WardiTV Not-Summer Championship ISSL (IntoTheTV x SOOP SC2 League): Premier
Strategy
[H] ZvP Mid-Late Game: Stalkers Collossi HT
Custom Maps
[G] How to playtest arcade maps [A] Nemrods 1/4 players [M] (2) Sweltering Sands [M] (2) Frigid Storage
External Content
The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 547 Temple Of Terror Mutation # 546 Catch the Train Mutation # 545 And Drops and Rifts
Brood War
General
Rollback Netcode in Brood War GG Lan Fest Sofia, Bulgaria [this November] [Megathread] Daily Funny Videos [Recap] Hive ZvZ in MonstarZ vs Dreams [ASL22] Finals Preview: Sweet Victory!
Tourneys
[$1250] International ShieldBattery League [ASL22] Grand Finals 2v2v2v2 Tournament Small VOD Thread 2.0
Strategy
Cliff Jump Revisited (1 in a 1000 strategy) Simple Questions, Simple Answers Replay Review Process - What do you do?
Other Games
General Games
Dawn of War IV Warcraft III: The Frozen Throne Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread General RTS Discussion Thread
Dota 2
Dota 2 Champions League Season 3 Begins April 25!
League of Legends
[TL LoL EUW IHs] Teemo shall perish
Heroes of the Storm
Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Artificial Intelligence Thread The Chess Thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine
Fan Clubs
Serral Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece
Sports
MLB/Baseball 2023 Football (Soccer) Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
Recent Gifted Posts
Blogs
ShieldBattery on Mac
Kraekkling
The Link Between Gaming and …
TrAiDoS
[ASL22] Ro4 Day1 Ticket Giv…
bITt.mAN
38 yo Retired SWE loo…
PurE)Rabbit-SF
Can Bots Beat Pros?? Starcr…
namkraft
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 10705 users

WikiLeaks founder arrested in U.K. - Page 23

Forum Index > General Forum
Post a Reply
Prev 1 21 22 23 24 25 93 Next
Drowsy
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
United States4876 Posts
December 08 2010 02:49 GMT
#441
On December 08 2010 10:30 WhuazGoodJaggah wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 08 2010 10:24 Goobus wrote:
On December 08 2010 10:17 WhuazGoodJaggah wrote:
On December 08 2010 10:08 us.insurgency wrote:
On December 08 2010 05:01 Half wrote:
Honestly you people shouldn't hate on U.S. soldiers, no matter how much you disagree with the war. Its really disgusting.

I basically hail the Assange as a hero, and while I often condemn the actions of the U.S. government, would never do so of soldiers (who are not actively committing war crimes of course)

Realize that the actions of these soldiers are critical to sustaining your way of life. Its the inevitability of late capitalism. How do you think the average American citizen consumes roughly 3x as much resources as those in other developed nations, and 50x as much as those in 3rd world nations? Late capitalism is dependent on a strong military industrial complex in order to protect foreign "investments" of American capitalists. You and your politicians reap the economic benefits payed for in blood. The blood of Iraqis, and your own soldiers, most whom came from a lower socio-economic background.

Condemning these soldiers is literally the ultimate disgrace. Sure, the military industrial complex is an abomination in this country, but the foot soldiers are no less its victims then the iraqis who have died.

So yeah, U.S. politicians and generals are scum. But the flesh and blood who die defending your interests are not.

OH.. cool, thanks for the explanation. So whats up with the guys who get banned on tl.net forums and no one stands up for their freedom of speech? (no trolls allowed Whiladan)


TL is a private forum incurring no negative externalities outside of itself.

Hate the war not the soliders.


like hate the KKK not its members?


That's really not the same thing...


can you elaborate on that? for me its the exact same thing.

Soldiers don't have a direct say in what wars get started, KKK members have a direct say in who's lawn has a cross burned on it/who gets lynched. Nobody ever joined the KKK to make a living because they realized they weren't good at anything else. Nobody joined the KKK because they wanted to serve their country honorably. Their government behaving dishonorably and dishonestly isn't the fault of individual soldiers.
Our Protoss, Who art in Aiur HongUn be Thy name; Thy stalker come, Thy will be blunk, on ladder as it is in Micro Tourny. Give us this win in our daily ladder, and forgive us our cheeses, As we forgive those who play zerg against us.
SiguR
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Canada2039 Posts
December 08 2010 02:52 GMT
#442

*Yes heroes in movies threaten to release information. Those same heroes also destroy property and murder scores of people along the way, but it's a movie, dude. In real-life blackmail is morally one of the worst crimes you can commit against another person.
*Assange is obviously not on the same level as Kim Jong-il, but now that you brought it up... Both are extraordinarily paranoid. Both believe the US government is out to get them. Both are dictator figures. Both trust few if any people at all. Both are notoriously secretive. Both are attention-seekers, out to grab headlines from the world while contributing nothing. Both take out insurance policies in case they're attacked.


Are you paid to spew out that crap or do you actually believe it?
I'm genuinely curious.

I'm tempted to pick at the sentences i've quoted that are absolutely nonsensical but then I realized that every sentence is nonsensical
WhuazGoodJaggah
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Lesotho777 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-08 02:59:08
December 08 2010 02:56 GMT
#443
On December 08 2010 11:49 Drowsy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 08 2010 10:30 WhuazGoodJaggah wrote:
On December 08 2010 10:24 Goobus wrote:
On December 08 2010 10:17 WhuazGoodJaggah wrote:
On December 08 2010 10:08 us.insurgency wrote:
On December 08 2010 05:01 Half wrote:
Honestly you people shouldn't hate on U.S. soldiers, no matter how much you disagree with the war. Its really disgusting.

I basically hail the Assange as a hero, and while I often condemn the actions of the U.S. government, would never do so of soldiers (who are not actively committing war crimes of course)

Realize that the actions of these soldiers are critical to sustaining your way of life. Its the inevitability of late capitalism. How do you think the average American citizen consumes roughly 3x as much resources as those in other developed nations, and 50x as much as those in 3rd world nations? Late capitalism is dependent on a strong military industrial complex in order to protect foreign "investments" of American capitalists. You and your politicians reap the economic benefits payed for in blood. The blood of Iraqis, and your own soldiers, most whom came from a lower socio-economic background.

Condemning these soldiers is literally the ultimate disgrace. Sure, the military industrial complex is an abomination in this country, but the foot soldiers are no less its victims then the iraqis who have died.

So yeah, U.S. politicians and generals are scum. But the flesh and blood who die defending your interests are not.

OH.. cool, thanks for the explanation. So whats up with the guys who get banned on tl.net forums and no one stands up for their freedom of speech? (no trolls allowed Whiladan)


TL is a private forum incurring no negative externalities outside of itself.

Hate the war not the soliders.


like hate the KKK not its members?


That's really not the same thing...


can you elaborate on that? for me its the exact same thing.

Soldiers don't have a direct say in what wars get started, KKK members have a direct say in who's lawn has a cross burned on it/who gets lynched. Nobody ever joined the KKK to make a living because they realized they weren't good at anything else. Nobody joined the KKK because they wanted to serve their country honorably. Their government behaving dishonorably and dishonestly isn't the fault of individual soldiers.


By joining the army you know that during your service decisions can be made you have no control over. A logic consequence of this is to NOT join. Thats just a bad excuse.

There are a lot of other ways to server your country honorably, how about maintenance of elders? Ooooh, sorry I forgot that doesn't give a lot of money and isn't as adventuresome. Can you see whats wrong here? You are payed good if you go somewhere else to kill some strange but you are payed bad if you stay here and help your own people. Is that the kind of organization you like to support by doing your serving in it?


EDIT:
and making money with something because it's the only you're good at is a very very bad excuse. a contract killer is not less a murder because he was just making money. (remember the iraq war is considered illegal by the uno)
small dicks have great firepower
Goobus
Profile Joined May 2010
Hong Kong587 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-08 03:26:08
December 08 2010 03:18 GMT
#444
On December 08 2010 11:56 WhuazGoodJaggah wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 08 2010 11:49 Drowsy wrote:
On December 08 2010 10:30 WhuazGoodJaggah wrote:
On December 08 2010 10:24 Goobus wrote:
On December 08 2010 10:17 WhuazGoodJaggah wrote:
On December 08 2010 10:08 us.insurgency wrote:
On December 08 2010 05:01 Half wrote:
Honestly you people shouldn't hate on U.S. soldiers, no matter how much you disagree with the war. Its really disgusting.

I basically hail the Assange as a hero, and while I often condemn the actions of the U.S. government, would never do so of soldiers (who are not actively committing war crimes of course)

Realize that the actions of these soldiers are critical to sustaining your way of life. Its the inevitability of late capitalism. How do you think the average American citizen consumes roughly 3x as much resources as those in other developed nations, and 50x as much as those in 3rd world nations? Late capitalism is dependent on a strong military industrial complex in order to protect foreign "investments" of American capitalists. You and your politicians reap the economic benefits payed for in blood. The blood of Iraqis, and your own soldiers, most whom came from a lower socio-economic background.

Condemning these soldiers is literally the ultimate disgrace. Sure, the military industrial complex is an abomination in this country, but the foot soldiers are no less its victims then the iraqis who have died.

So yeah, U.S. politicians and generals are scum. But the flesh and blood who die defending your interests are not.

OH.. cool, thanks for the explanation. So whats up with the guys who get banned on tl.net forums and no one stands up for their freedom of speech? (no trolls allowed Whiladan)


TL is a private forum incurring no negative externalities outside of itself.

Hate the war not the soliders.


like hate the KKK not its members?


That's really not the same thing...


can you elaborate on that? for me its the exact same thing.

Soldiers don't have a direct say in what wars get started, KKK members have a direct say in who's lawn has a cross burned on it/who gets lynched. Nobody ever joined the KKK to make a living because they realized they weren't good at anything else. Nobody joined the KKK because they wanted to serve their country honorably. Their government behaving dishonorably and dishonestly isn't the fault of individual soldiers.


By joining the army you know that during your service decisions can be made you have no control over. A logic consequence of this is to NOT join. Thats just a bad excuse.

There are a lot of other ways to server your country honorably, how about maintenance of elders? Ooooh, sorry I forgot that doesn't give a lot of money and isn't as adventuresome. Can you see whats wrong here? You are payed good if you go somewhere else to kill some strange but you are payed bad if you stay here and help your own people. Is that the kind of organization you like to support by doing your serving in it?


EDIT:
and making money with something because it's the only you're good at is a very very bad excuse. a contract killer is not less a murder because he was just making money. (remember the iraq war is considered illegal by the uno)


This kind of thinking is so naive it makes me want to vomit. Most soldiers (the rank and file, if you will) are lower class citizens who were too poor to receive a proper education. They didn't get into any of the fancy charter schools, private schools, or anything, much less receive college level education. A lot of them are even high school dropouts. What kind of prospects do you fancy for them trying for a real job outside of the army? Sure, many make a decent living doing blue-collar stuff, but the fact remains: the army offers some of the best security around. 3 meals a day, a bed, and if you do well enough, the chance for a promotion, a pay raise, and an eventual pension. That's more of a chance than they'd ever get at any other job. With the skillsets they have, what else do you think they could become? Janitors? Factory workers? Jesus, man, in the Army at least you feel like you're part of something bigger, like you're making some contribution to society.

You think they don't know that they're going to be forced to make decisions that they would have preferred not to make? Many of these guys don't even have college degrees. Do you expect them to make the "noble" decision not to join the army and, as you say, serve their country through "maintenance of elders"? What the fuck does that even mean?

What it comes down to is that they trust that the "higher ups" can make the right decisions for them to execute, the kind of decisions that will benefit the country. When a guy doesn't really know much history, or isn't trained in political science, do you really expect them to know what the authorities are really planning? Can you really bash them for being dumb? In a position like that, hell, even I'd trust that the government is out for my best interests.

I'd say that's a pretty fucking good excuse to enlist. Please stop posting with your head up your ass. You're making yourself sound really fucking stupid with your flawed arguments and refusal to see things from the point of view of a soldier.
AlexDeLarge
Profile Joined November 2010
Romania218 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-08 03:30:22
December 08 2010 03:25 GMT
#445
Just heard of a theory stating that this whole circus, with Assange in on it, is part of a US government agenda trying to slowly take control over the internet. Now they got the perfect motif to start filtering out information, censoring what they please, even putting taxes on websites, etc. God knows what goes on behind the political scene.

See the movie "Wag the Dog' with Dustin Hoffman to catch a glimpse of how twisted the government machinations can get.
Its only after we’ve lost everything that we’re free to do anything
DoubleReed
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States4130 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-08 03:35:46
December 08 2010 03:30 GMT
#446
because KKK = evil and Nazis = evil and US Military =/= evil?


No, because the US Military is actively seeking to protect civilians, while the Nazis and KKK are actively seeking to kill and maim civilians.

You think they don't know that they're going to be forced to make decisions that they would have preferred not to make? Many of these guys don't even have college degrees. Do you expect them to make the "noble" decision not to join the army and, as you say, serve their country through "maintenance of elders"? What the fuck does that even mean?


...the military have some great educational facilities you know. Saying that our soldiers do not have college degrees or equivalent is just wrong. Many military men are actually very well educated. Like from a Military Academy. They actually take college-level classes and everything.

The army opens up a lot more options than just more army work.
WhuazGoodJaggah
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Lesotho777 Posts
December 08 2010 03:31 GMT
#447
On December 08 2010 12:18 Goobus wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 08 2010 11:56 WhuazGoodJaggah wrote:
On December 08 2010 11:49 Drowsy wrote:
On December 08 2010 10:30 WhuazGoodJaggah wrote:
On December 08 2010 10:24 Goobus wrote:
On December 08 2010 10:17 WhuazGoodJaggah wrote:
On December 08 2010 10:08 us.insurgency wrote:
On December 08 2010 05:01 Half wrote:
Honestly you people shouldn't hate on U.S. soldiers, no matter how much you disagree with the war. Its really disgusting.

I basically hail the Assange as a hero, and while I often condemn the actions of the U.S. government, would never do so of soldiers (who are not actively committing war crimes of course)

Realize that the actions of these soldiers are critical to sustaining your way of life. Its the inevitability of late capitalism. How do you think the average American citizen consumes roughly 3x as much resources as those in other developed nations, and 50x as much as those in 3rd world nations? Late capitalism is dependent on a strong military industrial complex in order to protect foreign "investments" of American capitalists. You and your politicians reap the economic benefits payed for in blood. The blood of Iraqis, and your own soldiers, most whom came from a lower socio-economic background.

Condemning these soldiers is literally the ultimate disgrace. Sure, the military industrial complex is an abomination in this country, but the foot soldiers are no less its victims then the iraqis who have died.

So yeah, U.S. politicians and generals are scum. But the flesh and blood who die defending your interests are not.

OH.. cool, thanks for the explanation. So whats up with the guys who get banned on tl.net forums and no one stands up for their freedom of speech? (no trolls allowed Whiladan)


TL is a private forum incurring no negative externalities outside of itself.

Hate the war not the soliders.


like hate the KKK not its members?


That's really not the same thing...


can you elaborate on that? for me its the exact same thing.

Soldiers don't have a direct say in what wars get started, KKK members have a direct say in who's lawn has a cross burned on it/who gets lynched. Nobody ever joined the KKK to make a living because they realized they weren't good at anything else. Nobody joined the KKK because they wanted to serve their country honorably. Their government behaving dishonorably and dishonestly isn't the fault of individual soldiers.


By joining the army you know that during your service decisions can be made you have no control over. A logic consequence of this is to NOT join. Thats just a bad excuse.

There are a lot of other ways to server your country honorably, how about maintenance of elders? Ooooh, sorry I forgot that doesn't give a lot of money and isn't as adventuresome. Can you see whats wrong here? You are payed good if you go somewhere else to kill some strange but you are payed bad if you stay here and help your own people. Is that the kind of organization you like to support by doing your serving in it?


EDIT:
and making money with something because it's the only you're good at is a very very bad excuse. a contract killer is not less a murder because he was just making money. (remember the iraq war is considered illegal by the uno)


This kind of thinking is so naive it makes me want to vomit. Most soldiers (the rank and file, if you will) are lower class citizens who were too poor to receive a proper education. They didn't get into any of the fancy charter schools, private schools, or anything, much less receive college level education. A lot of them are even high school dropouts. What kind of prospects do you fancy for them trying for a real job outside of the army? Sure, many make a decent living doing blue-collar stuff, but the fact remains: the army offers some of the best security around. 3 meals a day, a bed, and if you do well enough, the chance for a promotion, a pay raise, and an eventual pension. That's more of a chance than they'd ever get at any other job (that's the thought process/logic behind it, at least).

You think they don't know that they're going to be forced to make decisions that they would have preferred not to make? Many of these guys don't even have college degrees. Do you expect them to make the "noble" decision not to join the army and, as you say, serve their country through "maintenance of elders"? What the fuck does that even mean?

What it comes down to is that they trust that the "higher ups" can make the right decisions for them to execute, the kind of decisions that will benefit the country. When a guy doesn't really know much history, or isn't trained in political science, do you really expect them to know what the authorities are really planning? Can you really bash them for being dumb? In a position like that, hell, even I'd trust that the government is out for my best interests.

I'd say that's a pretty fucking good excuse to enlist. Please stop posting with your head up your ass. Not everyone is like your average TLer.


Sound like a really cosy country where the military is your best option.

I expect everyone with half a brain to not choose the option with killing people but the option with helping people. I hang arround with very intelligent people and with very dumb ones too (school dropouts), but noone is as dumb as not knowing the consequences of doing army service which is mandatory here.

"maintenance of elders" is hmmm civil service? In germany f.e. you can do this instead of army service.

Simply beeing dumb has never been an excuse for me. If you're dumb be ready to take the blame for the dumb shit you do. I had to learn this too when I was young. I'm all for protecting the dumbs, like not allowing fucked up propaganda like the US Military uses to get its soldiers.

Btw I aint got my head up my ass it's right on my neck where it should be doing wonderful service for all kind of stuff.
small dicks have great firepower
Almania
Profile Joined September 2010
145 Posts
December 08 2010 03:32 GMT
#448
Yea there's a few conspiracy theories about. I don't see how this fiasco can possibly help the US filter the internet though, I can only see it doing the opposite. If they wanted to filter the internet I would have thought that rather than Wikileaks they'd make a child porn or snuff site fiasco, to make internet policing seem like it really is for the good of the people.
bobcat
Profile Joined May 2010
United States488 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-08 03:42:13
December 08 2010 03:38 GMT
#449
On December 08 2010 11:49 Drowsy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 08 2010 10:30 WhuazGoodJaggah wrote:
On December 08 2010 10:24 Goobus wrote:
On December 08 2010 10:17 WhuazGoodJaggah wrote:
On December 08 2010 10:08 us.insurgency wrote:
On December 08 2010 05:01 Half wrote:
Honestly you people shouldn't hate on U.S. soldiers, no matter how much you disagree with the war. Its really disgusting.

I basically hail the Assange as a hero, and while I often condemn the actions of the U.S. government, would never do so of soldiers (who are not actively committing war crimes of course)

Realize that the actions of these soldiers are critical to sustaining your way of life. Its the inevitability of late capitalism. How do you think the average American citizen consumes roughly 3x as much resources as those in other developed nations, and 50x as much as those in 3rd world nations? Late capitalism is dependent on a strong military industrial complex in order to protect foreign "investments" of American capitalists. You and your politicians reap the economic benefits payed for in blood. The blood of Iraqis, and your own soldiers, most whom came from a lower socio-economic background.

Condemning these soldiers is literally the ultimate disgrace. Sure, the military industrial complex is an abomination in this country, but the foot soldiers are no less its victims then the iraqis who have died.

So yeah, U.S. politicians and generals are scum. But the flesh and blood who die defending your interests are not.

OH.. cool, thanks for the explanation. So whats up with the guys who get banned on tl.net forums and no one stands up for their freedom of speech? (no trolls allowed Whiladan)


TL is a private forum incurring no negative externalities outside of itself.

Hate the war not the soliders.


like hate the KKK not its members?


That's really not the same thing...


can you elaborate on that? for me its the exact same thing.

Soldiers don't have a direct say in what wars get started, KKK members have a direct say in who's lawn has a cross burned on it/who gets lynched. Nobody ever joined the KKK to make a living because they realized they weren't good at anything else. Nobody joined the KKK because they wanted to serve their country honorably. Their government behaving dishonorably and dishonestly isn't the fault of individual soldiers.



I'm sure a lot of KKK members aren't better at doing anything else. I'm also sure a lot of them think they are serving their country. But what people think isn't important.


Nobody

NOBODY

Can ever blame anyone else if they shoot a child. Other than these kids running at them with explosives in hand, There is never any justification for such an action. I don't care what kind of training you go through, or how much pressure you are under. If you make the conscious decision to end the life of a child violently, you can blame nobody but yourself. The fact of the matter is, the military consists of two different types of soldiers.

Dutiful soldiers who wanted to serve their country, and the other 65% of the military, people who have no business holding a gun. The kind of people who lack the discipline/psychological balance to become functioning members of society, so they allow the military to provide food, shelter, and employment versus becoming a delinquent. (Think of the friends of your's who joined the army/marines and you'll know exactly who I'm talking about.)

The dutiful sodiers are just that. They do there job, don't complain much, just try to survive and not think about the fact that they are on duty in a warzone. Some of the other ones don't handle it so well. 60 days in a row of patroling the same streets and seeing the same snottly little kid give you the finger when you drive by after sitting in the back of a hot humvee all day has a way of playing with a person's mind no doubt, but the gap between being pissed off and being a murderer is still quite large. No amount of stress could ever convince someone to do something like that.
"I just want to see bobcat wrist deep in someone's mother's anus" 165 votes
DoubleReed
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States4130 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-08 03:39:45
December 08 2010 03:39 GMT
#450
I expect everyone with half a brain to not choose the option with killing people but the option with helping people. I hang arround with very intelligent people and with very dumb ones too (school dropouts), but noone is as dumb as not knowing the consequences of doing army service which is mandatory here.


Considering we have soldiers right now protecting civilians from drug warlords who will simply take their shit in Afghanistan, I find this repulsive. Our soldiers are protecting people, civilians alike. They like us a lot more than the warlords, you know. Because we don't kill, kidnap, and steal from them.

Soldiers are putting their lives on the line to protect people. And even though its the internet and you can troll as much as you want, you should show a little respect for that.
tnud
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Sweden2233 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-08 03:58:40
December 08 2010 03:48 GMT
#451
On December 08 2010 12:39 DoubleReed wrote:
Show nested quote +
I expect everyone with half a brain to not choose the option with killing people but the option with helping people. I hang arround with very intelligent people and with very dumb ones too (school dropouts), but noone is as dumb as not knowing the consequences of doing army service which is mandatory here.


Considering we have soldiers right now protecting civilians from drug warlords who will simply take their shit in Afghanistan, I find this repulsive. Our soldiers are protecting people, civilians alike. They like us a lot more than the warlords, you know. Because we don't kill, kidnap, and steal from them.

Soldiers are putting their lives on the line to protect people. And even though its the internet and you can troll as much as you want, you should show a little respect for that.

Now, I respect what the US claim/tried to do in afganistan, but things didn't turn out so well did it?
There are valid arguments that the US is doing a lot of harm too.

Because we don't kill

http://www.thejournal.ie/us-soldiers-on-trial-for-killing-afghan-civilians-for-fun-2010-09/

steal

http://www.afghanconflictmonitor.org/2010/07/us-soldiers-charged-with-fuel-theft-.html

kidnap

http://www.heraldextra.com/news/world/article_cfcde080-ee2d-553b-8ee8-813072924ac5.html
- ಠ_ಠ - | disinfect wrote: AHAHHAHAHA 2DG FUCK ME ALREADY.
bobcat
Profile Joined May 2010
United States488 Posts
December 08 2010 03:49 GMT
#452
On December 08 2010 12:39 DoubleReed wrote:
Show nested quote +
I expect everyone with half a brain to not choose the option with killing people but the option with helping people. I hang arround with very intelligent people and with very dumb ones too (school dropouts), but noone is as dumb as not knowing the consequences of doing army service which is mandatory here.


Considering we have soldiers right now protecting civilians from drug warlords who will simply take their shit in Afghanistan, I find this repulsive. Our soldiers are protecting people, civilians alike. They like us a lot more than the warlords, you know. Because we don't kill, kidnap, and steal from them.

Soldiers are putting their lives on the line to protect people. And even though its the internet and you can troll as much as you want, you should show a little respect for that.


Some soldiers yes, there are some soldiers deployed for a good reason, no shit. Even though they are there because they get paid not becuase they want to be. That's not important. I fully agree that what they are doing is noble.

The point is that some soldiers doing noble things does not make up for other soldiers doing bad things. They are supposed to do the right thing. They are paid to do the right thing. Just like cops are paid to do the right thing. If a couple of corrupt cops go out and steal drug from criminals and turn around and sell them to little kids. THATS A BAD THING. Some of the other cops could volunteer for charity. But that doesn't change the fact that the other cops did a bad thing. In fact, even if 90% of the cops do their jobs, that doesn't make it ok for the 10% that don't. Especially if those cops intended to be dirty when they sign up. Nobody joins the military to protect innocent people. They do it for money. People don't just risk their lives for others all the time. It wouldn't be on the news if they did.
"I just want to see bobcat wrist deep in someone's mother's anus" 165 votes
WhuazGoodJaggah
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Lesotho777 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-08 03:57:08
December 08 2010 03:50 GMT
#453
On December 08 2010 12:39 DoubleReed wrote:
Show nested quote +
I expect everyone with half a brain to not choose the option with killing people but the option with helping people. I hang arround with very intelligent people and with very dumb ones too (school dropouts), but noone is as dumb as not knowing the consequences of doing army service which is mandatory here.


Considering we have soldiers right now protecting civilians from drug warlords who will simply take their shit in Afghanistan, I find this repulsive. Our soldiers are protecting people, civilians alike. They like us a lot more than the warlords, you know. Because we don't kill, kidnap, and steal from them.

Soldiers are putting their lives on the line to protect people. And even though its the internet and you can troll as much as you want, you should show a little respect for that.


You know that you can get banned on this site for calling someone a troll? Just stop doing that shit, the mods, and ONLY the mods decide if someone is a troll, I'm not.

Consider this: Men with guns are protecting people from men with guns. Subtract men with guns (the reasonable choice I mentioned in my post) and what are you left with? You want respect for beeing the core of the problem? No dude, jûst no.


On December 08 2010 12:26:08 Goobus wrote:
You're making yourself sound really fucking stupid with your flawed arguments and refusal to see things from the point of view of a soldier.

Hahahaha, what a whack line dude. I did my military service, did you?
small dicks have great firepower
Krigwin
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
1130 Posts
December 08 2010 04:15 GMT
#454
Can we stop the stupid US Army = KKK nonsense and get back to the Assange being in custody nonsense?

An interesting article here concerning the legal case against Assange:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/08/world/08leak.html

+ Show Spoiler +
WASHINGTON — The Justice Department, in considering whether and how it might indict Julian Assange, is looking beyond the Espionage Act of 1917 to other possible offenses, including conspiracy or trafficking in stolen property, according to officials familiar with the investigation.

Attorney General Eric H. Holder Jr. acknowledged this week that there were problems with the Espionage Act, a World War I-era law that says the unauthorized possession and dissemination of information related to national defense is illegal. But he also hinted that prosecutors were looking at other statutes with regard to Mr. Assange, the founder of WikiLeaks.

“I don’t want to get into specifics here, but people would have a misimpression if the only statute you think that we are looking at is the Espionage Act,” Mr. Holder said Monday at a news conference. “That is certainly something that might play a role, but there are other statutes, other tools that we have at our disposal.”

Last week, The New York Times and four other news organizations began carrying articles based on an archive of a quarter-million confidential State Department cables obtained by WikiLeaks and made available to them. After WikiLeaks released a batch of government documents concerning Iraq and Afghanistan in July, Mr. Holder and the director of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, Robert S. Mueller III, both said the leaks were being investigated, and Mr. Assange said United States officials had previously warned his organization that there had been “thoughts of whether I could be charged as a co-conspirator to espionage, which is serious.”

Mr. Assange was arrested Tuesday in Britain in connection with a Swedish investigation into accusations of sexual offenses. But United States law enforcement officials said the fact that he was in custody did not affect their deliberations about whether he might be charged in this country in connection with the publication of leaked government documents.

Prosecutors have used the Espionage Act to convict officials who leaked classified information. They have never successfully convicted any leak recipient who then passed the information along, however, and the Justice Department has never tried to prosecute a journalist —which Mr. Assange portrays himself as being — under either a Republican or a Democratic administration.

Senator Joseph I. Lieberman, independent of Connecticut, said Tuesday on Fox News that he believed The Times should be investigated alongside WikiLeaks, although he cautioned, “This is very sensitive stuff because it gets into the America’s First Amendment.”

“I certainly believe that WikiLleaks has violated the Espionage Act, but then what about the news organizations — including The Times — that accepted it and distributed it?” Mr. Lieberman said, adding: “To me, The New York Times has committed at least an act of bad citizenship, and whether they have committed a crime, I think that bears a very intensive inquiry by the Justice Department.”

A government official familiar with the investigation said that treating WikiLeaks different from newspapers might be facilitated if investigators found any evidence that Mr. Assange aided the leaker, who is believed to be a low-level Army intelligence analyst — for example, by directing him to look for certain things and providing technological assistance.

If Mr. Assange did collaborate in the original disclosure, then prosecutors could charge him with conspiracy in the underlying leak, skirting the question of whether the subsequent publication of the documents constituted a separate criminal offense. But while investigators have looked for such evidence, there is no public sign suggesting that they have found any.

Meanwhile, according to another government official familiar with the investigation, Justice Department officials have also examined whether Mr. Assange and WikiLeaks could be charged with trafficking in stolen government property.

But scholars say there might be legal difficulties with that approach, too, because the leaked documents are reproductions of files the government still possesses, not physical objects missing from its file cabinets. That means they are covered by intellectual property law, not ordinary property law.

“This is less about stealing than it is about copying,” said John G. Palfrey, a Harvard Law School professor who specializes in Internet issues and intellectual property.

Intellectual property law criminalizes the unauthorized reproduction of certain kinds of commercial information, like trade secrets or copyrighted music, films and software files. But those categories do not appear to cover government documents, which by law cannot be copyrighted and for which there is no ordinary commercial market.

Mr. Assange has received leaks of private-sector information as well. He has indicated, for example, that his next step might be to publish a copy of the contents of a hard drive belonging to an executive at a bank — apparently, Bank of America.

If he does so, some of the problems associated with trying to find a way to prosecute him for distributing leaked government documents could disappear. The works of a person in the private sector are automatically copyrighted, and bank documents could be deemed trade secrets.

“If you had large-scale dissemination of a private-sector company’s records, there might be some kind of argument there similar to commercial espionage,” said James Boyle, a Duke University law professor who specializes in intellectual property and public-domain issues.

There would still be obstacles. For example, Mr. Assange could claim that his distribution of the files was allowable under the “fair use” exception to copyright law and that it was not for financial gain. Still, “fair use” does not allow wholesale reproduction, and prosecutors could argue that his organization was raising money from its activities.

Even so, Mr. Boyle cautioned, intellectual property law is not well designed to prosecute what WikiLeaks is doing.

“The reason people are upset about this is not about commercial theft or misusing the fabulous original expressions of U.S. diplomats,” Mr. Boyle said. “I think it is the wrong tool. You go after Al Capone for tax evasion rather than bootlegging — fine. But this is a bridge too far.”

Basically there's not much to go after him on, legally speaking, not even for espionage or whatever. Publishing the cables isn't a criminal act anywhere, and they can't charge him with any kind of state secrets-related crime unless they can show some kind of facilitation of the person who originally procured the cables. They might consider intellectual property related charges (how's THAT for piracy debate) but that's on shaky ground as well since US government files are not considered under the copyright of anyone.
tnud
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Sweden2233 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-08 04:20:17
December 08 2010 04:19 GMT
#455
On December 08 2010 13:15 Krigwin wrote:
Can we stop the stupid US Army = KKK nonsense and get back to the Assange being in custody nonsense?

An interesting article here concerning the legal case against Assange:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/08/world/08leak.html

+ Show Spoiler +
WASHINGTON — The Justice Department, in considering whether and how it might indict Julian Assange, is looking beyond the Espionage Act of 1917 to other possible offenses, including conspiracy or trafficking in stolen property, according to officials familiar with the investigation.

Attorney General Eric H. Holder Jr. acknowledged this week that there were problems with the Espionage Act, a World War I-era law that says the unauthorized possession and dissemination of information related to national defense is illegal. But he also hinted that prosecutors were looking at other statutes with regard to Mr. Assange, the founder of WikiLeaks.

“I don’t want to get into specifics here, but people would have a misimpression if the only statute you think that we are looking at is the Espionage Act,” Mr. Holder said Monday at a news conference. “That is certainly something that might play a role, but there are other statutes, other tools that we have at our disposal.”

Last week, The New York Times and four other news organizations began carrying articles based on an archive of a quarter-million confidential State Department cables obtained by WikiLeaks and made available to them. After WikiLeaks released a batch of government documents concerning Iraq and Afghanistan in July, Mr. Holder and the director of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, Robert S. Mueller III, both said the leaks were being investigated, and Mr. Assange said United States officials had previously warned his organization that there had been “thoughts of whether I could be charged as a co-conspirator to espionage, which is serious.”

Mr. Assange was arrested Tuesday in Britain in connection with a Swedish investigation into accusations of sexual offenses. But United States law enforcement officials said the fact that he was in custody did not affect their deliberations about whether he might be charged in this country in connection with the publication of leaked government documents.

Prosecutors have used the Espionage Act to convict officials who leaked classified information. They have never successfully convicted any leak recipient who then passed the information along, however, and the Justice Department has never tried to prosecute a journalist —which Mr. Assange portrays himself as being — under either a Republican or a Democratic administration.

Senator Joseph I. Lieberman, independent of Connecticut, said Tuesday on Fox News that he believed The Times should be investigated alongside WikiLeaks, although he cautioned, “This is very sensitive stuff because it gets into the America’s First Amendment.”

“I certainly believe that WikiLleaks has violated the Espionage Act, but then what about the news organizations — including The Times — that accepted it and distributed it?” Mr. Lieberman said, adding: “To me, The New York Times has committed at least an act of bad citizenship, and whether they have committed a crime, I think that bears a very intensive inquiry by the Justice Department.”

A government official familiar with the investigation said that treating WikiLeaks different from newspapers might be facilitated if investigators found any evidence that Mr. Assange aided the leaker, who is believed to be a low-level Army intelligence analyst — for example, by directing him to look for certain things and providing technological assistance.

If Mr. Assange did collaborate in the original disclosure, then prosecutors could charge him with conspiracy in the underlying leak, skirting the question of whether the subsequent publication of the documents constituted a separate criminal offense. But while investigators have looked for such evidence, there is no public sign suggesting that they have found any.

Meanwhile, according to another government official familiar with the investigation, Justice Department officials have also examined whether Mr. Assange and WikiLeaks could be charged with trafficking in stolen government property.

But scholars say there might be legal difficulties with that approach, too, because the leaked documents are reproductions of files the government still possesses, not physical objects missing from its file cabinets. That means they are covered by intellectual property law, not ordinary property law.

“This is less about stealing than it is about copying,” said John G. Palfrey, a Harvard Law School professor who specializes in Internet issues and intellectual property.

Intellectual property law criminalizes the unauthorized reproduction of certain kinds of commercial information, like trade secrets or copyrighted music, films and software files. But those categories do not appear to cover government documents, which by law cannot be copyrighted and for which there is no ordinary commercial market.

Mr. Assange has received leaks of private-sector information as well. He has indicated, for example, that his next step might be to publish a copy of the contents of a hard drive belonging to an executive at a bank — apparently, Bank of America.

If he does so, some of the problems associated with trying to find a way to prosecute him for distributing leaked government documents could disappear. The works of a person in the private sector are automatically copyrighted, and bank documents could be deemed trade secrets.

“If you had large-scale dissemination of a private-sector company’s records, there might be some kind of argument there similar to commercial espionage,” said James Boyle, a Duke University law professor who specializes in intellectual property and public-domain issues.

There would still be obstacles. For example, Mr. Assange could claim that his distribution of the files was allowable under the “fair use” exception to copyright law and that it was not for financial gain. Still, “fair use” does not allow wholesale reproduction, and prosecutors could argue that his organization was raising money from its activities.

Even so, Mr. Boyle cautioned, intellectual property law is not well designed to prosecute what WikiLeaks is doing.

“The reason people are upset about this is not about commercial theft or misusing the fabulous original expressions of U.S. diplomats,” Mr. Boyle said. “I think it is the wrong tool. You go after Al Capone for tax evasion rather than bootlegging — fine. But this is a bridge too far.”

Basically there's not much to go after him on, legally speaking, not even for espionage or whatever. Publishing the cables isn't a criminal act anywhere, and they can't charge him with any kind of state secrets-related crime unless they can show some kind of facilitation of the person who originally procured the cables. They might consider intellectual property related charges (how's THAT for piracy debate) but that's on shaky ground as well since US government files are not considered under the copyright of anyone.

Agreed.
And they have a week, then Assange can run away from their dirty methods once again. They even openly state that they haven't got a case... YET! THE HELL!
Man must be hard having so much to hide
- ಠ_ಠ - | disinfect wrote: AHAHHAHAHA 2DG FUCK ME ALREADY.
Shakes
Profile Joined April 2010
Australia557 Posts
December 08 2010 04:31 GMT
#456
I know I'm seemingly in the minority here, but I fully support the arrest.

While some level of skepticism is healthy due to the whole wikileaks situation, I think the outright denial expressed in this thread is a massive over reaction. He should face his day in court over this, to do otherwise potentially denies justice to victims of sexual assault. This is a serious crime, and no matter how important the wikileaks project might be there should never be a free pass just because someone is famous (see Polanski, Roman).

Furthermore for all the bleasting about corrupt governments and heroic acts by wikileaks against them, I ask you what kind of just government is it that does not act to protect half its populace? Assange is accused of using his body weight to hold a woman down and forcibly have sex with her, and having sex with another woman while sleeping, both of which are reasonably described as rape. Cut the crap about "surprise sex" so it can be treated as no big deal, any reasonable government has a duty of care to its female citizens to prosecute any man accused of such acts.

Assange's guilt isn't the issue here, he should have his day in court to determine that. What's the issue is people who want to paint him as a martyr and enable him to avoid that day in court.
NotGood-
Profile Joined March 2010
United States134 Posts
December 08 2010 04:31 GMT
#457
Im pretty sure he will be imprisioned for this even if he didnt do it. (And After all the governments hes pissed off, there is no way he can get a "fair trial" anywhere in the world that has internet access. Although i dont think it is right for him to release classified documents to the public, the US government should not have been doing all the things the documents revealed them to be doing. But hey so much for transparent government!
FindingPride
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States1001 Posts
December 08 2010 04:34 GMT
#458
On December 08 2010 13:31 Shakes wrote:
I know I'm seemingly in the minority here, but I fully support the arrest.

While some level of skepticism is healthy due to the whole wikileaks situation, I think the outright denial expressed in this thread is a massive over reaction. He should face his day in court over this, to do otherwise potentially denies justice to victims of sexual assault. This is a serious crime, and no matter how important the wikileaks project might be there should never be a free pass just because someone is famous (see Polanski, Roman).

Furthermore for all the bleasting about corrupt governments and heroic acts by wikileaks against them, I ask you what kind of just government is it that does not act to protect half its populace? Assange is accused of using his body weight to hold a woman down and forcibly have sex with her, and having sex with another woman while sleeping, both of which are reasonably described as rape. Cut the crap about "surprise sex" so it can be treated as no big deal, any reasonable government has a duty of care to its female citizens to prosecute any man accused of such acts.

Assange's guilt isn't the issue here, he should have his day in court to determine that. What's the issue is people who want to paint him as a martyr and enable him to avoid that day in court.

Actually. If you read the case you would understand they have no case against him. Not even the woman who are accusing him. Because it was consensual sex. Even glenn beck is against his Detainment for what they are charging him. Thats how retarded the charges are.
Krigwin
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
1130 Posts
December 08 2010 04:37 GMT
#459
On December 08 2010 13:19 tnud wrote:
Agreed.
And they have a week, then Assange can run away from their dirty methods once again. They even openly state that they haven't got a case... YET! THE HELL!
Man must be hard having so much to hide

The whole Justice Department is working on it, don't worry. I'm sure they'll find something to charge him with, eventually.
tnud
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Sweden2233 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-08 04:42:59
December 08 2010 04:38 GMT
#460
On December 08 2010 13:34 FindingPride wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 08 2010 13:31 Shakes wrote:
I know I'm seemingly in the minority here, but I fully support the arrest.

While some level of skepticism is healthy due to the whole wikileaks situation, I think the outright denial expressed in this thread is a massive over reaction. He should face his day in court over this, to do otherwise potentially denies justice to victims of sexual assault. This is a serious crime, and no matter how important the wikileaks project might be there should never be a free pass just because someone is famous (see Polanski, Roman).

Furthermore for all the bleasting about corrupt governments and heroic acts by wikileaks against them, I ask you what kind of just government is it that does not act to protect half its populace? Assange is accused of using his body weight to hold a woman down and forcibly have sex with her, and having sex with another woman while sleeping, both of which are reasonably described as rape. Cut the crap about "surprise sex" so it can be treated as no big deal, any reasonable government has a duty of care to its female citizens to prosecute any man accused of such acts.

Assange's guilt isn't the issue here, he should have his day in court to determine that. What's the issue is people who want to paint him as a martyr and enable him to avoid that day in court.

Actually. If you read the case you would understand they have no case against him. Not even the woman who are accusing him. Because it was consensual sex. Even glenn beck is against his Detainment for what they are charging him. Thats how retarded the charges are.

Additionally the punishment for this crime is a mere ~700$ or something (as previously said in this thread... somewhere). It's not as serious of a crime as some would like you to believe, yet an international arrest has been made and he is currently in prison, something that he couldn't be sentenced to.

EDIT: Here!
+ Show Spoiler +
[...]"it was for violating an obscure Swedish law against having sex without a condom." During a business trip to Stockholm last August, Assange had unprotected sex with two women (a bizarre and painfully detailed account is available on the Daily Mail's Web site) who upon realizing that they had both slept with him—and that he had blown them both off—jointly approached police about his refusal to take an STD test. At the time, Assange's Swedish lawyer confirmed that "the principal concern the women had about Assange's behavior … related to his lack of interest in using condoms and his refusal to undergo testing, at the women's request, for sexually transmitted disease." (Assange actually did use a condom with one of the women, but it broke.) This, apparently, is hazy legal territory in Sweden. While the "consent of both women to sex with Assange has been confirmed by prosecutors," as a former attorney wrote in an impassioned op-ed, Assange has been charged with something called "sex by surprise," which reportedly carries a $715 fine. According to Assange's London attorney, Mark Stephens, prosecutors have yet to explain the charges or meet with the WikiLeaks chief to discuss them, which he's agreed to do. "Whatever 'sex by surprise' is, it's only an offense in Sweden—not in the U.K. or the U.S. or even Ibiza," Stephens fumed. "I feel as if I'm in a surreal Swedish movie being threatened by bizarre trolls."
- ಠ_ಠ - | disinfect wrote: AHAHHAHAHA 2DG FUCK ME ALREADY.
Prev 1 21 22 23 24 25 93 Next
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
The PiG Daily
06:30
Best Games of SC
Clem vs SHIN
herO vs SHIN
Serral vs Solar
Clem vs SHIN
Reynor vs TBD
PiGStarcraft456
LiquipediaDiscussion
BSL Open Qualifier
04:00
Pro & Gosu - Last Chance #1
ZZZero.O203
LiquipediaDiscussion
AI Arena Tournament
01:00
Swiss - Round 6
Laughngamez YouTube
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
PiGStarcraft456
Nina 165
ViBE96
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 12622
ZZZero.O 203
910 47
NaDa 19
Terrorterran 0
Dota 2
monkeys_forever530
NeuroSwarm175
Other Games
summit1g10533
FrodaN1576
JimRising 508
KnowMe196
Khaldor177
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick868
[ Show 11 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• musti20045 26
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• Migwel
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Other Games
• imaqtpie1118
• Shiphtur565
Upcoming Events
Sparkling Tuna Cup
10h 4m
OSC
13h 4m
IPSL
16h 4m
BSL Open Qualifier
19h 4m
WardiTV Weekly
1d 11h
IntoTheTV X SOOP
2 days
PiGosaur Cup
3 days
The PondCast
3 days
Kung Fu Cup
3 days
IntoTheTV X SOOP
4 days
[ Show More ]
FEL
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Super Anchor Qualifying S3
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
Copium Cup

Ongoing

Acropolis #5
KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 4
Acropolis #5 - GSC
HCC Season 3
Thunderpick World Champ. '26
ESL Pro League Season 24
Stake Ranked Episode 4
1win Private Club #1
Logitech G Play Connect 2026
SL StarSeries Fall 2026
FISSURE Playground #3
BLAST Open Fall 2026
Esports World Cup 2026

Upcoming

BSL Season 23
SC4ALL II: Brood War
BSL 23: Non-Korean Championship
HSC XXX
Stellar Fest 2: Lunar Cup
SC4ALL II: StarCraft II
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
RSL Offline Finals
eXTREMESLAND 2026
PGL Major Singapore 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 6
BLAST Rivals Fall 2026
IEM Beijing 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 5
PGL Masters Bucharest 2026
1win Private Club #2
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.