|
On November 24 2010 06:17 clementdudu wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 06:08 Surrealz wrote:On November 24 2010 05:55 Shizuru~ wrote:On November 24 2010 05:51 vnlegend wrote:
This whole "we sink your ships and kill your people for food" strategy of NK must be punished. It's the most messed up thing to attack and other people while demanding food/money.
The only reason NK has survived this far was basically by acting like a big baby throwing a tantrum every couple of months/years and the international community has been supporting this kind of behavior by giving money/aid to them. Just cut off everything and let them starve themselves out and hope the population will rebel against the government. so its ok to punish the entire nation of N.Korea to starve because of the clowns running the country? There is alot of patriotism and nationalism in the hearts of North Koreans (as it should of course, all of us love our own turf), so its pretty ignorant to just say that its just the government that is bad. In my opinion the most effective course of action is the continued isolation of NK, as well as continued sanctions by the UN. Its a messy situation, sucks that the philosophy of these people leading NK are centuries behind the western world. I'd love to know what Nkorea inside source is giving you your informations on how much the people of Nkorea would back up his government if it wasnt for fear of it. Usually,humans do no like to starve to death while having relatives tortured/kidnapped/killed and not able to move freely. But eh they are crazy asians fanatics,and they do lots of flowery shows in honor of their leader,so they must be pretty patriotic! Guess wh'os ignorant.
People are the same at the core everywhere. Thats why.
|
Valhalla18444 Posts
On November 24 2010 06:35 Surrealz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 06:17 clementdudu wrote:On November 24 2010 06:08 Surrealz wrote:On November 24 2010 05:55 Shizuru~ wrote:On November 24 2010 05:51 vnlegend wrote:
This whole "we sink your ships and kill your people for food" strategy of NK must be punished. It's the most messed up thing to attack and other people while demanding food/money.
The only reason NK has survived this far was basically by acting like a big baby throwing a tantrum every couple of months/years and the international community has been supporting this kind of behavior by giving money/aid to them. Just cut off everything and let them starve themselves out and hope the population will rebel against the government. so its ok to punish the entire nation of N.Korea to starve because of the clowns running the country? There is alot of patriotism and nationalism in the hearts of North Koreans (as it should of course, all of us love our own turf), so its pretty ignorant to just say that its just the government that is bad. In my opinion the most effective course of action is the continued isolation of NK, as well as continued sanctions by the UN. Its a messy situation, sucks that the philosophy of these people leading NK are centuries behind the western world. I'd love to know what Nkorea inside source is giving you your informations on how much the people of Nkorea would back up his government if it wasnt for fear of it. Usually,humans do no like to starve to death while having relatives tortured/kidnapped/killed and not able to move freely. But eh they are crazy asians fanatics,and they do lots of flowery shows in honor of their leader,so they must be pretty patriotic! Guess wh'os ignorant. People are the same at the core everywhere. Thats why.
that makes no sense whatsoever, how can you just flippantly claim that everyone is the same (read: just like you)? same values, same priorities, same opinions, same reactions? you realize this is a completely separate culture from your own right?
|
On November 24 2010 05:27 Taosu wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 05:23 supersoft wrote:
NK should be freed with massive amounts of money and not with gunpower As a German you should know best what it was when the two Germanies united. Now it's kinda similar except the fact that the difference in economy isn't 4 times, it's about 50 times. The NK population has less income, less skills... Everything. I can't imagine them integrating into SK society.
As a German, I say you it would have been worth even with 400 times economy difference. This is about families and real persons and one people which has suffered from occupation long enough and belongs together.
If there is any way a peaceful unation of Korea can take place, the opportunity should be grabbed.
But what makes me doubt that is that the North Koreans can't possibly suffer more and still don't revolt (yet).
|
On November 24 2010 06:30 On_Slaught wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 06:26 GP wrote:On November 24 2010 06:20 On_Slaught wrote:
I wonder how many more times N. Korea can kill S. Korean military members without any real response. I understand the difference between this situation and any other western nation (which would immediately go to war if either of the recent incidents happened) with the proximity of their capital to the DMZ, but you can't let this go on forever. No one was killed and according to reports, N Korea only attacked after the S Korean military refused to stop operations, which were in contested waters. I refuse to blindly call all N Korean decisions bad simply because the country is run by some pretty questionable people. If it's true that S Korea received requests to stop operations, they could have avoided an entire clusterfuck. This whole thing should have never happened, and there was no need for S Korea to be flexing its dick so close to the N Korean coast. Someone in the S Korean side needs to be held accountable as well. 1. Yes people were killed. Dunno where you heard they weren't. 2. They have been doing this same drill for years. The only difference this time is there were no American Marines with the group. Coincidence that they decide to attack now? Also in the same week we learn about their new production facilities? Sure.. 3. N. Korea has no right to request them from stopping these drills in international or S. Korean waters. 4. The response wasn't proportionate if what you say is true. "You are too close to us so we bomb your land."
If the American Marines were there and any of them died, don't you think the USA would jump right into this, or at least get involved a lot quicker? (hypothetically yes, of course) Thats why they waited for a timing to hit without provoking USA.
|
China Remained Silent during Lisbon Nato Meeting
China for many times warned S.Korea and US to not conduct military excirses close to its territorial waters. US and Skorea remained silent. China had expressed their concerns about US navy close to SKorea and her territorial waters at the same time.
The missile shield deal signed. In my opinion, the real future balistic missle threat today to NATO (Especially to US and Europe) comes from China, not Iran or something. The dome project was originally was against to Soviet Russia after its fall the project was forgotten. Now I belaive with the proxies of 2 countries, we are entering in an age of "Semi-ColdWar".
Chine remained silent to the missile shield, and NATO accepted Turkey's offer to "change the threat evaluation from Middle East/Iran to general, world perspective" I see the reason why no one except dumb Sarkozy refused this. US definetaly conducting these to secure its political zone.
And suddenly we see NKorea and South firing each other.
Ladies and gentelman Semi-ColdWar, not between 2 countries this time, not between 2 ideologies this time, not between East and West this time, but between 2 blocks, Rising powers, and current powers of worlds economic and military system.
|
Ugh. I couldn't believe what I was reading over some old guys shoulder on the metro today. Couldn't believe it when I got home either. This shit needs to stop.
|
On November 24 2010 06:40 P00RKID wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 06:30 On_Slaught wrote:On November 24 2010 06:26 GP wrote:On November 24 2010 06:20 On_Slaught wrote:
I wonder how many more times N. Korea can kill S. Korean military members without any real response. I understand the difference between this situation and any other western nation (which would immediately go to war if either of the recent incidents happened) with the proximity of their capital to the DMZ, but you can't let this go on forever. No one was killed and according to reports, N Korea only attacked after the S Korean military refused to stop operations, which were in contested waters. I refuse to blindly call all N Korean decisions bad simply because the country is run by some pretty questionable people. If it's true that S Korea received requests to stop operations, they could have avoided an entire clusterfuck. This whole thing should have never happened, and there was no need for S Korea to be flexing its dick so close to the N Korean coast. Someone in the S Korean side needs to be held accountable as well. 1. Yes people were killed. Dunno where you heard they weren't. 2. They have been doing this same drill for years. The only difference this time is there were no American Marines with the group. Coincidence that they decide to attack now? Also in the same week we learn about their new production facilities? Sure.. 3. N. Korea has no right to request them from stopping these drills in international or S. Korean waters. 4. The response wasn't proportionate if what you say is true. "You are too close to us so we bomb your land." If the American Marines were there and any of them died, don't you think the USA would jump right into this, or at least get involved a lot quicker? (hypothetically yes, of course) Thats why they waited for a timing to hit without provoking USA.
The US did nothing when North Koreans murdered two US officers by hacking them to death with an axe.
|
Don't know if this has been posted yet, but I was greeted with this when I woke up today:
South Korea's president called for retaliation after North Korea's deadly artillery attacks today and said the incident is "an invasion of South Korean territory.
- www.CNN.com
Unfortunately I think things are just going to get worse. 
|
On November 24 2010 06:42 smallblacksun wrote:
The US did nothing when North Koreans murdered two US officers by hacking them to death with an axe.
Notice I threw in a hypothetically in there. Hypothetically, the US would do something when North Koreans murder two US officers by hacking them to death with an axe.
|
On November 24 2010 06:38 kazansky wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 05:27 Taosu wrote:On November 24 2010 05:23 supersoft wrote:
NK should be freed with massive amounts of money and not with gunpower As a German you should know best what it was when the two Germanies united. Now it's kinda similar except the fact that the difference in economy isn't 4 times, it's about 50 times. The NK population has less income, less skills... Everything. I can't imagine them integrating into SK society. As a German, I say you it would have been worth even with 400 times economy difference. This is about families and real persons and one people which has suffered from occupation long enough and belongs together. If there is any way a peaceful unation of Korea can take place, the opportunity should be grabbed. But what makes me doubt that is that the North Koreans can't possibly suffer more and still don't revolt (yet).
Except the orange revolution(which wasnt close at all of the Nkorean situation) can you tell me a country which revolted against its authoritarian government(ukraine wasnt authoritarian,just too corrupt) not to form another dictatorship in recent history?
Hint:none.
Today's situation is not like 1789,you cant just take muskets and bayonnets and overthrow a powerful government(except if you're a birman general or a west african warlord and you just want to take control).
It's not tomorrow you'll see millions of Nkoreans in the street throwing stones at Kimjongils portraits.
|
On November 24 2010 06:45 P00RKID wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 06:42 smallblacksun wrote:
The US did nothing when North Koreans murdered two US officers by hacking them to death with an axe. Notice I threw in a hypothetically in there. Hypothetically, the US would do something when North Koreans murder two US officers by hacking them to death with an axe.
We didn't 25 years ago when North Korea didn't have nuclear weapons, why would we now that they do?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axe_murder_incident
|
On November 24 2010 06:37 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 06:35 Surrealz wrote:On November 24 2010 06:17 clementdudu wrote:On November 24 2010 06:08 Surrealz wrote:On November 24 2010 05:55 Shizuru~ wrote:On November 24 2010 05:51 vnlegend wrote:
This whole "we sink your ships and kill your people for food" strategy of NK must be punished. It's the most messed up thing to attack and other people while demanding food/money.
The only reason NK has survived this far was basically by acting like a big baby throwing a tantrum every couple of months/years and the international community has been supporting this kind of behavior by giving money/aid to them. Just cut off everything and let them starve themselves out and hope the population will rebel against the government. so its ok to punish the entire nation of N.Korea to starve because of the clowns running the country? There is alot of patriotism and nationalism in the hearts of North Koreans (as it should of course, all of us love our own turf), so its pretty ignorant to just say that its just the government that is bad. In my opinion the most effective course of action is the continued isolation of NK, as well as continued sanctions by the UN. Its a messy situation, sucks that the philosophy of these people leading NK are centuries behind the western world. I'd love to know what Nkorea inside source is giving you your informations on how much the people of Nkorea would back up his government if it wasnt for fear of it. Usually,humans do no like to starve to death while having relatives tortured/kidnapped/killed and not able to move freely. But eh they are crazy asians fanatics,and they do lots of flowery shows in honor of their leader,so they must be pretty patriotic! Guess wh'os ignorant. People are the same at the core everywhere. Thats why. that makes no sense whatsoever, how can you just flippantly claim that everyone is the same (read: just like you)? same values, same priorities, same opinions, same reactions? you realize this is a completely separate culture from your own right?
he said at the core, so I assume he means in the sense that they're human, they share human limitations and characteristics. I didn't think he meant by core, values opinions and reactions. Those seem more to me like the external, or socially influenced part of people.
|
On November 24 2010 06:26 heishe wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 06:20 GP wrote:On November 24 2010 06:08 Surrealz wrote:On November 24 2010 05:55 Shizuru~ wrote:On November 24 2010 05:51 vnlegend wrote:
This whole "we sink your ships and kill your people for food" strategy of NK must be punished. It's the most messed up thing to attack and other people while demanding food/money.
The only reason NK has survived this far was basically by acting like a big baby throwing a tantrum every couple of months/years and the international community has been supporting this kind of behavior by giving money/aid to them. Just cut off everything and let them starve themselves out and hope the population will rebel against the government. so its ok to punish the entire nation of N.Korea to starve because of the clowns running the country? There is alot of patriotism and nationalism in the hearts of North Koreans (as it should of course, all of us love our own turf), so its pretty ignorant to just say that its just the government that is bad. Wow, you're pretty hypocritical to call anyone ignorant. I wasn't aware patriotism makes you a bad person. They have pride in their lands, history, and where they come from, let them starve! their people have the power. their government sucks ass, they can face it and start a revolution, or they can deny it and be punished for it. if they are not happy with what their government does, they should do something against it, just like every single other country on the whole planet has done at least once or twice in the history. and if their government represents such a large amount of people over there that the revolters wouldn't be able to do anything, then this is a classic case where an outside country would have to liberate the country and let them form a new government.
Sorry, but this is such a pathetic posting. Of course there are countries where people have never started a successful revolution (Hint: you are living in it). It's easy to talk like this with 20.000 kilometres of distance, it's another one when you are the one repressed, your families and beloved threatened, this kind of courage isn't in anyones heart exactly. Obviously if they could start a revolution there, it would help them, but no one except themselves knows of a possibility of that.
|
On November 24 2010 06:47 smallblacksun wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 06:45 P00RKID wrote:On November 24 2010 06:42 smallblacksun wrote:
The US did nothing when North Koreans murdered two US officers by hacking them to death with an axe. Notice I threw in a hypothetically in there. Hypothetically, the US would do something when North Koreans murder two US officers by hacking them to death with an axe. We didn't 25 years ago when North Korea didn't have nuclear weapons, why would we now that they do? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axe_murder_incident
Ok my point isn't coming across as clear. The US government might not do jack shit, but the American people will be more and more pissed off when its the US military or civilians that are targeted. And depending how rifled the people get, the more pressure the government has to do "something".
American people won't get as rifled if no Americans were hurt, as most will just think its some far away problem that doesn't affect them.
|
On November 24 2010 06:48 Roe wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 06:37 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:On November 24 2010 06:35 Surrealz wrote:On November 24 2010 06:17 clementdudu wrote:On November 24 2010 06:08 Surrealz wrote:On November 24 2010 05:55 Shizuru~ wrote:On November 24 2010 05:51 vnlegend wrote:
This whole "we sink your ships and kill your people for food" strategy of NK must be punished. It's the most messed up thing to attack and other people while demanding food/money.
The only reason NK has survived this far was basically by acting like a big baby throwing a tantrum every couple of months/years and the international community has been supporting this kind of behavior by giving money/aid to them. Just cut off everything and let them starve themselves out and hope the population will rebel against the government. so its ok to punish the entire nation of N.Korea to starve because of the clowns running the country? There is alot of patriotism and nationalism in the hearts of North Koreans (as it should of course, all of us love our own turf), so its pretty ignorant to just say that its just the government that is bad. In my opinion the most effective course of action is the continued isolation of NK, as well as continued sanctions by the UN. Its a messy situation, sucks that the philosophy of these people leading NK are centuries behind the western world. I'd love to know what Nkorea inside source is giving you your informations on how much the people of Nkorea would back up his government if it wasnt for fear of it. Usually,humans do no like to starve to death while having relatives tortured/kidnapped/killed and not able to move freely. But eh they are crazy asians fanatics,and they do lots of flowery shows in honor of their leader,so they must be pretty patriotic! Guess wh'os ignorant. People are the same at the core everywhere. Thats why. that makes no sense whatsoever, how can you just flippantly claim that everyone is the same (read: just like you)? same values, same priorities, same opinions, same reactions? you realize this is a completely separate culture from your own right? he said at the core, so I assume he means in the sense that they're human, they share human limitations and characteristics. I didn't think he meant by core, values opinions and reactions. Those seem more to me like the external, or socially influenced part of people.
What roe said was what I meant.
What I'm trying to get across is that we are painting this picture on this forum that the NK people are all completely against their government and want to love the rest of the world agree with us. Its more complicated than that, and their perception of these issues are probably far different than what we are imagining. Humans are really, really similar. We cling to our roots, our culture, and our home turf. Don't quote me on this, but I believe NK has the highest % of its male 18-24 population in the military of any nation in the world. The North Korean aren't evil by nature, but I think that our perspective and their perspective are VERY different.
|
On November 24 2010 06:47 clementdudu wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 06:38 kazansky wrote:On November 24 2010 05:27 Taosu wrote:On November 24 2010 05:23 supersoft wrote:
NK should be freed with massive amounts of money and not with gunpower As a German you should know best what it was when the two Germanies united. Now it's kinda similar except the fact that the difference in economy isn't 4 times, it's about 50 times. The NK population has less income, less skills... Everything. I can't imagine them integrating into SK society. As a German, I say you it would have been worth even with 400 times economy difference. This is about families and real persons and one people which has suffered from occupation long enough and belongs together. If there is any way a peaceful unation of Korea can take place, the opportunity should be grabbed. But what makes me doubt that is that the North Koreans can't possibly suffer more and still don't revolt (yet). Except the orange revolution(which wasnt close at all of the Nkorean situation) can you tell me a country which revolted against its authoritarian government(ukraine wasnt authoritarian,just too corrupt) not to form another dictatorship in recent history? Hint:none. Today's situation is not like 1789,you cant just take muskets and bayonnets and overthrow a powerful government(except if you're a birman general or a west african warlord and you just want to take control). It's not tomorrow you'll see millions of Nkoreans in the street throwing stones at Kimjongils portraits.
Eastern Germany revolted peacefully and forced unification, don't know if that would count for you.
Spain in the end of Franquisme aswell.
Nevertheless, the lack of historical examples should never discourage peaceful solutions.
Of course it's not easy, but it is a opportunity which, if possible, should be the one and only way walked. Although I doubt it due to the North Koreans not revolting yet under given circumstances.
|
Valhalla18444 Posts
On November 24 2010 06:56 Surrealz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 06:48 Roe wrote:On November 24 2010 06:37 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:On November 24 2010 06:35 Surrealz wrote:On November 24 2010 06:17 clementdudu wrote:On November 24 2010 06:08 Surrealz wrote:On November 24 2010 05:55 Shizuru~ wrote:On November 24 2010 05:51 vnlegend wrote:
This whole "we sink your ships and kill your people for food" strategy of NK must be punished. It's the most messed up thing to attack and other people while demanding food/money.
The only reason NK has survived this far was basically by acting like a big baby throwing a tantrum every couple of months/years and the international community has been supporting this kind of behavior by giving money/aid to them. Just cut off everything and let them starve themselves out and hope the population will rebel against the government. so its ok to punish the entire nation of N.Korea to starve because of the clowns running the country? There is alot of patriotism and nationalism in the hearts of North Koreans (as it should of course, all of us love our own turf), so its pretty ignorant to just say that its just the government that is bad. In my opinion the most effective course of action is the continued isolation of NK, as well as continued sanctions by the UN. Its a messy situation, sucks that the philosophy of these people leading NK are centuries behind the western world. I'd love to know what Nkorea inside source is giving you your informations on how much the people of Nkorea would back up his government if it wasnt for fear of it. Usually,humans do no like to starve to death while having relatives tortured/kidnapped/killed and not able to move freely. But eh they are crazy asians fanatics,and they do lots of flowery shows in honor of their leader,so they must be pretty patriotic! Guess wh'os ignorant. People are the same at the core everywhere. Thats why. that makes no sense whatsoever, how can you just flippantly claim that everyone is the same (read: just like you)? same values, same priorities, same opinions, same reactions? you realize this is a completely separate culture from your own right? he said at the core, so I assume he means in the sense that they're human, they share human limitations and characteristics. I didn't think he meant by core, values opinions and reactions. Those seem more to me like the external, or socially influenced part of people. What roe said was what I meant. What I'm trying to get across is that we are painting this picture on this forum that the NK people are all completely against their government and want to love the rest of the world agree with us. Its more complicated than that, and their perception of these issues are probably far different than what we are imagining. Humans are really, really similar. We cling to our roots, our culture, and our home turf. Don't quote me on this, but I believe NK has the highest % of its male 18-24 population in the military of any nation in the world. The North Korean aren't evil by nature, but I think that our perspective and their perspective are VERY different.
oh, ok. i definitely misinterpreted then, or you wrote it poorly (haha  ), cuz Roe's post makes sense but your response to clementdudu read completely differently to me T_T
|
It truely is a tragedy that SK's died in the tantrum that NK throws on occasion. While I don't know enough to make a judgment on the start of another korean war, I do think that something should be done. I would probably start off with revoking the trade agreementst that SK and NK have and putting further sanctions on NK. I would also like to see China step up and take a roll in this situation; They are NK's closest ally (only?).
|
On November 24 2010 06:56 Surrealz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 06:48 Roe wrote:On November 24 2010 06:37 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:On November 24 2010 06:35 Surrealz wrote:On November 24 2010 06:17 clementdudu wrote:On November 24 2010 06:08 Surrealz wrote:On November 24 2010 05:55 Shizuru~ wrote:On November 24 2010 05:51 vnlegend wrote:
This whole "we sink your ships and kill your people for food" strategy of NK must be punished. It's the most messed up thing to attack and other people while demanding food/money.
The only reason NK has survived this far was basically by acting like a big baby throwing a tantrum every couple of months/years and the international community has been supporting this kind of behavior by giving money/aid to them. Just cut off everything and let them starve themselves out and hope the population will rebel against the government. so its ok to punish the entire nation of N.Korea to starve because of the clowns running the country? There is alot of patriotism and nationalism in the hearts of North Koreans (as it should of course, all of us love our own turf), so its pretty ignorant to just say that its just the government that is bad. In my opinion the most effective course of action is the continued isolation of NK, as well as continued sanctions by the UN. Its a messy situation, sucks that the philosophy of these people leading NK are centuries behind the western world. I'd love to know what Nkorea inside source is giving you your informations on how much the people of Nkorea would back up his government if it wasnt for fear of it. Usually,humans do no like to starve to death while having relatives tortured/kidnapped/killed and not able to move freely. But eh they are crazy asians fanatics,and they do lots of flowery shows in honor of their leader,so they must be pretty patriotic! Guess wh'os ignorant. People are the same at the core everywhere. Thats why. that makes no sense whatsoever, how can you just flippantly claim that everyone is the same (read: just like you)? same values, same priorities, same opinions, same reactions? you realize this is a completely separate culture from your own right? he said at the core, so I assume he means in the sense that they're human, they share human limitations and characteristics. I didn't think he meant by core, values opinions and reactions. Those seem more to me like the external, or socially influenced part of people. What roe said was what I meant. What I'm trying to get across is that we are painting this picture on this forum that the NK people are all completely against their government and want to love the rest of the world agree with us. Its more complicated than that, and their perception of these issues are probably far different than what we are imagining. Humans are really, really similar. We cling to our roots, our culture, and our home turf. Don't quote me on this, but I believe NK has the highest % of its male 18-24 population in the military of any nation in the world. The North Korean aren't evil by nature, but I think that our perspective and their perspective are VERY different.
you do realize that an authoritarian system does not really leave you choice to enrol in the army or not right?
We agree on one point,human have the same core.We do not like to be killed/tortured/kidnapped/bullied around.There might be 5 millions Nkoreans in the army,i wonder how many would shoot their commanding officer in the head if they were not afraid.
The best example is the collaboration with the nazis in france during WWII.
95% of people involved in it hated nazis,they were just to afraid to do shit,and helped germans.
|
from what i've seen on nk documentaries, North Koreans are happy with their government. Some argue how chinese government is evil and are not treating their citizens correctly, however according to the poll, the chinese populous is happy with their government.
now, the documentaries, the journalists are limited to where they can't and can go so that may have to do something about it. from what i've seen, the north korean woman cry when they see kim jung il like a 14 yr girl cries when she sees justin bieber.
a military doup d'éta, maybe but citizen revolt? i highly doubt it. if rok is able to occupy dprk, i think there will be some resistance until the people become educated through aid and information.
in a way, it might be like trying to say kim jung il never walked on water and healed the sick, it'll be hard to believe for some.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
