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On November 12 2010 09:53 Contagious wrote:
Guys, freedom of speech should only go so far. A book like this doesn't belong on Amazon (obviously why they took if off). This is just something you'd expect on 4chan or some stupid shit like that.
so your concept of freedom of speech is accepting speech which you agree with and censoring speech you disagree with or find offensive?
very nice
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Free speech is free speech, there is no limit to it. You ban this book... what will be the next thing you want to ban ? Critizing it is fine, but banning it takes it off the map so to speak... Better to have it out in the open and critized than hidden away.
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People seem to misunderstand free speech. Free speech is free, but there are restrictions to it. There has to be, otherwise we'll find ourselves in utter anarchy. Hence the law exists.
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United Arab Emirates245 Posts
What's next? A cookbook for Cannibals?
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No one can decide where to draw a line between acceptable and too far, so I believe there should be no line.
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On November 12 2010 10:53 opsayo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2010 09:53 Contagious wrote:
Guys, freedom of speech should only go so far. A book like this doesn't belong on Amazon (obviously why they took if off). This is just something you'd expect on 4chan or some stupid shit like that. so your concept of freedom of speech is accepting speech which you agree with and censoring speech you disagree with or find offensive? very nice
Obviously, duh.
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On November 12 2010 10:50 FecalFrown wrote:
All I see in this thread are sane people trying to stomp down the ever present ideologues who think that with their axioms on free speech and limited knowledge of the law they can justify the publication and widespread distribution of a book about how to rape children.
Get a life, please.
Really? That's odd. All I see in this thread are sane people trying to stomp down the ever present ideologues who think that with their firm handle on the moral decay of society they can justify the cherry picking of books they find personally offensive for censorship and stomp all over the First Amendment in doing so.
Funny, that. I made that observation and yet, never did post it because I didn't want to sound like an arrogant, self-righteous narrow-minded poster with no respect for people who simply hold a different opinion.
I guess that's not a concern for the likes of someone with your vast intellect though. Thank you for shedding light on such an apparently simple and transparent issue, I guess this thread can be closed now that we've all received your infinite wisdom.
Get a life, please.
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On November 12 2010 10:50 LunarC wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2010 10:36 jinorazi wrote:
those who want to ban this book, can you make a list of books you'd like to ban? i'd imagine there's large variety of them, depending on who comes up with a list.
free speech is not something that you can pick and choose. like many said before, take the good with the bad. if people had choice to ban books because its offensive, i'd like to nominate most religious book out there because they have caused countless war, death, murder, and whatnot. how are the bible and koran not different? (teach to hate homosexual, teach to hate non-believers, respectively). (example, not my true intentions)
books on how to hack/crack, books on how to be a sneaky child molester, books on how to pirate, they're all illegal. one just is more sensitive than other...is this good enough reason to ban one but not the other? Everyone's trying to be too technical. The world isn't black and white, hence people must use good judgment for these sorts of things. The book contains explicit instructions on how to commit a sexual offense. That is probably not the best thing to distribute because even though it would not necessarily cause anything, the potential to do so is clear and obvious. Also, the Bible doesn't say anything like hating on non-believers. It says nothing about hating homosexuals. It tells you to hate the idea of nonbelief and homosexuality, but to show love to all, sinner or not. It also tells you not to judge, for all have sinned. In addition, causing strife, violence and war in the name of a religion does not make the religion or book culprit unless the dogma explicitly instructs believers to do so. As a side note, I can't say I'm a Christian. However I am tired of people misunderstanding what the Bible actually says. P.S. It's widely agreed that the New Testament overrides the Old Testament in terms of adherence.
i overly generalized with the example. you may say that people are misunderstanding what the quran and the bible teaches but you can clearly see the effects that they have on people. man kills a doctor for abortion, influence of the bible. people are killed if they abandon islam. the believers themselves often misinterpret what is written. the parents who prayed for healing instead taking their kids to doctor, did they deserve to goto prison?
they were only doing what they truly believed in. i remember reading in a book "disappointment with god", a church community in georgia(if i remember correctly) lost 13 (double digit, i dont remember the exact number) children because they prayed instead of taking them to hospital. most of the parents replied (paraphrasing) "it is because our faith wasnt strong enough".
to stay on topic, i understand that this book is wrong but so are many other books and to be fair we'd have to pick and choose every one of them. what i'm saying is we should put emotions aside when it comes to a topic like this because that's why people are so against this book.
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On November 12 2010 11:02 ibreakurface wrote:
No one can decide where to draw a line between acceptable and too far, so I believe there should be no line.
Yes they can. The law already did.
Plus, most of these issues should be dealt with case-by-case. And they are. People in this thread want to use blanket statements to cover everything.
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On November 12 2010 11:08 jinorazi wrote:to stay on topic, i understand that this book is wrong but so are many other books and to be fair we'd have to pick and choose every one of them. what i'm saying is we should put emotions aside when it comes to a topic like this because that's why people are so against this book. If we analyze it coldly without any emotions and only see the objective pros and cons of our actions. Then it's an easy pick: this book influences a negative behavior -> it causes harm to people -> laws exist to stop those who cause harm from doing so again -> so this book should be illegal.
Pretty easy 
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well, the book is gone now. seems like the uproar over this was too much for amazon to handle
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On November 12 2010 11:13 VIB wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2010 11:08 jinorazi wrote:to stay on topic, i understand that this book is wrong but so are many other books and to be fair we'd have to pick and choose every one of them. what i'm saying is we should put emotions aside when it comes to a topic like this because that's why people are so against this book. If we analyze it coldly without any emotions and only see the objective pros and cons of our actions. Then it's an easy pick: this book influences a negative behavior -> it causes harm to people -> laws exist to stop those who cause harm from doing so again -> so this book should be illegal. Pretty easy
and so do many, many other books, games, tv shows, etc.
i think thats the point of the debate between the two sides here.
part of me wants this book gone, part of me thinks this book is ok.
i was applauding amazon for having the balls to not remove this book but $$$ is the goal for amazon which makes sense to remove it. i'll still shop @ amazon regardless...kinda sad people went far enough to say they'd boycott amazon (emotion).
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On November 12 2010 11:08 jinorazi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2010 10:50 LunarC wrote:On November 12 2010 10:36 jinorazi wrote:
those who want to ban this book, can you make a list of books you'd like to ban? i'd imagine there's large variety of them, depending on who comes up with a list.
free speech is not something that you can pick and choose. like many said before, take the good with the bad. if people had choice to ban books because its offensive, i'd like to nominate most religious book out there because they have caused countless war, death, murder, and whatnot. how are the bible and koran not different? (teach to hate homosexual, teach to hate non-believers, respectively). (example, not my true intentions)
books on how to hack/crack, books on how to be a sneaky child molester, books on how to pirate, they're all illegal. one just is more sensitive than other...is this good enough reason to ban one but not the other? Everyone's trying to be too technical. The world isn't black and white, hence people must use good judgment for these sorts of things. The book contains explicit instructions on how to commit a sexual offense. That is probably not the best thing to distribute because even though it would not necessarily cause anything, the potential to do so is clear and obvious. Also, the Bible doesn't say anything like hating on non-believers. It says nothing about hating homosexuals. It tells you to hate the idea of nonbelief and homosexuality, but to show love to all, sinner or not. It also tells you not to judge, for all have sinned. In addition, causing strife, violence and war in the name of a religion does not make the religion or book culprit unless the dogma explicitly instructs believers to do so. As a side note, I can't say I'm a Christian. However I am tired of people misunderstanding what the Bible actually says. P.S. It's widely agreed that the New Testament overrides the Old Testament in terms of adherence. i overly generalized with the example. you may say that people are misunderstanding what the quran and the bible teaches but you can clearly see the effects that they have on people. man kills a doctor for abortion, influence of the bible. people are killed if they abandon islam. the believers themselves often misinterpret what is written. the parents who prayed for healing instead taking their kids to doctor, did they deserve to goto prison? they were only doing what they truly believed in. i remember reading in a book "disappointment with god", a church community in georgia(if i remember correctly) lost 13 (double digit, i dont remember the exact number) children because they prayed instead of taking them to hospital. most of the parents replied (paraphrasing) "it is because our faith wasnt strong enough". to stay on topic, i understand that this book is wrong but so are many other books and to be fair we'd have to pick and choose every one of them. what i'm saying is we should put emotions aside when it comes to a topic like this because that's why people are so against this book.
You have to consider, if it weren't for Religion, would they still be doing this? Are you sure its not ignorance or stubbornness? There are plenty of people out there willing to mislead people, or who themselves aren't too bright, but yet they lead people. It could be because of a religion, but it could easily be political.
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On November 12 2010 10:53 opsayo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2010 09:53 Contagious wrote:
Guys, freedom of speech should only go so far. A book like this doesn't belong on Amazon (obviously why they took if off). This is just something you'd expect on 4chan or some stupid shit like that. so your concept of freedom of speech is accepting speech which you agree with and censoring speech you disagree with or find offensive? very nice
Private corporations like amazon don't have to give free speech. It's not as though the government is banning the book from being published.
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On November 12 2010 11:22 [Agony]x90 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2010 11:08 jinorazi wrote:On November 12 2010 10:50 LunarC wrote:On November 12 2010 10:36 jinorazi wrote:
those who want to ban this book, can you make a list of books you'd like to ban? i'd imagine there's large variety of them, depending on who comes up with a list.
free speech is not something that you can pick and choose. like many said before, take the good with the bad. if people had choice to ban books because its offensive, i'd like to nominate most religious book out there because they have caused countless war, death, murder, and whatnot. how are the bible and koran not different? (teach to hate homosexual, teach to hate non-believers, respectively). (example, not my true intentions)
books on how to hack/crack, books on how to be a sneaky child molester, books on how to pirate, they're all illegal. one just is more sensitive than other...is this good enough reason to ban one but not the other? Everyone's trying to be too technical. The world isn't black and white, hence people must use good judgment for these sorts of things. The book contains explicit instructions on how to commit a sexual offense. That is probably not the best thing to distribute because even though it would not necessarily cause anything, the potential to do so is clear and obvious. Also, the Bible doesn't say anything like hating on non-believers. It says nothing about hating homosexuals. It tells you to hate the idea of nonbelief and homosexuality, but to show love to all, sinner or not. It also tells you not to judge, for all have sinned. In addition, causing strife, violence and war in the name of a religion does not make the religion or book culprit unless the dogma explicitly instructs believers to do so. As a side note, I can't say I'm a Christian. However I am tired of people misunderstanding what the Bible actually says. P.S. It's widely agreed that the New Testament overrides the Old Testament in terms of adherence. i overly generalized with the example. you may say that people are misunderstanding what the quran and the bible teaches but you can clearly see the effects that they have on people. man kills a doctor for abortion, influence of the bible. people are killed if they abandon islam. the believers themselves often misinterpret what is written. the parents who prayed for healing instead taking their kids to doctor, did they deserve to goto prison? they were only doing what they truly believed in. i remember reading in a book "disappointment with god", a church community in georgia(if i remember correctly) lost 13 (double digit, i dont remember the exact number) children because they prayed instead of taking them to hospital. most of the parents replied (paraphrasing) "it is because our faith wasnt strong enough". to stay on topic, i understand that this book is wrong but so are many other books and to be fair we'd have to pick and choose every one of them. what i'm saying is we should put emotions aside when it comes to a topic like this because that's why people are so against this book. You have to consider, if it weren't for Religion, would they still be doing this? Are you sure its not ignorance or stubbornness? There are plenty of people out there willing to mislead people, or who themselves aren't too bright, but yet they lead people. It could be because of a religion, but it could easily be political.
i totally agree. i believe majority of the suicide bombers have been manipulated somehow and people like osama (higher up) used religion has a tool to manipulated them. the base, the environment was created by religion. people thought hiro hito was god and many died with honor for him and the great empire. ignorance and stubbornness is the catalyst on why people do what they do but they get absorbed in religion and pseudo religion so easily. religion was politics, it was the main form government, laws written to abide the religious belief...only just in modern society they're getting replaced by modern government.
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This is the same exact debate that existed in the thread about the guy who got arrested in the UK for making posts on facebook about having sex with dead bodies...
No the book shouldn't have been pulled off the site, amazon is very stupid for censoring a book just because they don't agree with its message. They're also huge hypocrites too because i am sure there are a zillion more books they sell on their website whose message they also don't agree with or wouldn't endorse as a company. And they're giant pussies for caving in to all the idiots that believe in censorship and wanted the book banned.
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It disgusts me how easy you're all willing to give up your freedom of speech. Freedom of speech is binary, you either have it or you don't. Ban one book, you might as well ban all of them.
Information should be shared freely, it's the only way to advance our society. Imagine if Darwin's publication(s) (which at the time were just as controversial) were banned.
Could this book help accomplish something? Help science? No one will know unless it gets pulished, maybe it can be analyzed for thought patterns in the future, maybe it will help find a cure/treatment for pedophilia.
All knowledge is neutral. Information is neutral, it does not try to hurt you. People are non-neutral. Banning information is "fixing" the symptoms rather than the cause, it'll only come back to fuck you over later.
I don't understand how so many people in this thread are claiming they would send pedophiles to jail just for being pedophiles, that's not a crime. It's thought-crime at most. It is also classified as a psychiatric disorder, along with Anxiety, obsessive-compulsive disorder, post-traumatic stress, depression disorders, various personality disorders, eating disorders, and on and on.
I guess we should throw the entire world into jail and let them rot for reasons that are out of their own control.
If a subject is so taboo to you that you can't discuss it with anything other than "it's bad, god help us all." then stay out of this thread please, because so far there has been very little logical reasoning going on, and a whole lot of ranting.
By the way;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Anarchist_Cookbook
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So this, this is okay. But someone mentions Mein Kampf and people freak? Mein Kampf is a very intriguing read actually, please by NO MEANS think I am implying being a Nazi is good, much to the contrary. Any mentally mature, and conscientious person will read Mein Kampf and be quite intrigued by the beliefs of one of the worlds most notorious war criminals, but it will definitely NOT turn them into a Nazi, rather it will help you understand his madness, and just how wrong he really was.
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My personal opinion is that pedophiles have a place in literature and books about them,even about crimes they commit, are okay, as long as its harmless, possibly a positive outlet for pedophiles.
This book isn't harmless, it's dangerous.
When pedophiles can't control their urge, they should go to jail, and rot. Now when they can't control their urge, they have a better chance of getting away, all thanks to this book. And once you've done it once...
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On November 12 2010 10:16 VIB wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2010 10:10 Acid~ wrote:On November 12 2010 09:53 Contagious wrote:
Guys, freedom of speech should only go so far. A book like this doesn't belong on Amazon (obviously why they took if off). This is just something you'd expect on 4chan or some stupid shit like that. No, there is no middle ground for freedom of speech. It's not "freedom of speech for everything except what I find offensive" No one's arguing we should censor what we find offensive. If you say "I hate you", I'll find it offensive but I'll defend your right of saying it. You're confusing your right to be entitled to an opinion with telling someone to commit a crime. Those are completely different. Would you say that someone saying "Mr Hitman, kill that guy" shouldn't be arrested because of free speech? One thing has nothing to do with another.
There is a difference between telling someone *to* commit a crime and telling someone *how to* commit a crime.
To take your example, the book "how to be a hitman" is still sold on Amazon.
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