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The Big Programming Thread - Page 363

Forum Index > General Forum
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Thread Rules
1. This is not a "do my homework for me" thread. If you have specific questions, ask, but don't post an assignment or homework problem and expect an exact solution.
2. No recruiting for your cockamamie projects (you won't replace facebook with 3 dudes you found on the internet and $20)
3. If you can't articulate why a language is bad, don't start slinging shit about it. Just remember that nothing is worse than making CSS IE6 compatible.
4. Use [code] tags to format code blocks.
Kambing
Profile Joined May 2010
United States1176 Posts
September 30 2013 22:55 GMT
#7241
On October 01 2013 07:44 RoyGBiv_13 wrote:
cross post from HN today that is relevant to the topic of the Big Programming Thread's weekly programming language + Show Spoiler +
circlejerk
discussion.
http://pastebin.com/ed1pP9Ak

Doesn't really matter what language you start with, or targeting which platforms or structures. Like most things in life, hours put in programming varies directly with the competence and skill of the programmer. What really matters most is learning how to learn.
Chances are, if you don't put in the effort required to excel, you'll end up somewhere in software middle-management.


From that post:


It is now time to conclude this long-winded rant. I would like to end with a piece of advice for those who are thinking of becoming a software engineer. My advice would be - do not become a "software engineer". I know there is a lot of demand right now, but 1) the demand won't last forever; 2) most of the "software engineer" jobs are boring as shit.

If you really like programming, try to specialize. Like algorithms? You can be a computer scientist. You can become a systems programmer and develop OS internals. Try digging through Linux source code. If you're into programming languages, you can get into writing compilers. I hear LLVM is amazing. If you like graphics, dust off those math books and get good OpenGL tutorial. Whatever you do, don't just be a generic "software engineer". It sucks bad.


Can't emphasize this enough. Computer science is such a vast field that it's almost impossible not to find something that piques your interest to specialize in as long as you are hunting. It makes you more appealing on the job market, and it helps give you the motivation to slog through the rough patches.
Azerbaijan
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
United States660 Posts
September 30 2013 23:44 GMT
#7242
On October 01 2013 07:15 Abominous wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 01 2013 07:07 darkness wrote:
On October 01 2013 05:10 Abominous wrote:
On September 30 2013 21:11 Azerbaijan wrote:
On September 30 2013 20:29 Birdie wrote:
On September 30 2013 20:16 Ilikestarcraft wrote:
Not surprised then that they managed to follow along. How'd did those "imbeciles" do in CS 102 which I'm guessing is like a data structures in C course?

In hindsight imbeciles is perhaps too strong a word. They're not particularly...techy/geeky though, basically ordinary people who had barely touched program settings let alone programmed anything before. They're doing well enough in 102. 102 covers binary/hex, the memory space, how the CPU and registers process data, pointers, compilation, and so on. From what I'm told the second and third years are significantly more difficult than the first year, as the first year is used to get non-programmers up to speed.

What are the CS courses like where you're from?


Nearly every four year CS program in the US uses java. If its not java its usually python/.net. I talk with a lot with people who are 5-6 semesters ahead of me and nearly finished; most have never seen hex or pointers and other low level concepts; they also won't stop telling me that everything should be an object. Maybe I'm weird but I kind of wish I could have gone to school back when CS programs had 60% dropout rates and there was more science in computer science. I shouldn't complain; I am at a good school but java just feels so shallow in that you don't really have to dig in much to be a competent java programmer. I think a decent C programmer would run circles around a decent java programmer if he spent a few days learning java; I don't think it would be work out the same the other way around.

CS is way way way more than simple programming. Broaden your horizons, I did and I'd never do any kind of trivial OO programming ever again. :D


I don't think he implies Computer Science is just programming. Of course Computer Science is about algorithms, theory, data structures, etc. I think he just says that CS degrees are too focused on programming nowadays.

Nobody stops him from taking interest in artificial intelligence, theoretical computer science, computer security or any other specialisation within CS.

It's just that most programming jobs require CS degrees, so most students go there to grab a degree and find a job so the unis adapted.

Personally, I'm all for a more scientific approach and as someone mentioned earlier writing down those "old" programs in C was a tremendous effort and I'm not a fan of programming nowadays, it has lost its charm, almost everyone can do it with these higher level languages and low understanding of the depth behind it leading to unoptimized applications because of deadlines and a market where a good GUI is more valuable than the product itself. Back in the days, programming had scientific background, now kids fresh out of high school are typing lines of code knowing what it does but not why and how. Face it, programming has become trivial.


EDIT: All of the above is the reason I personally dislike programming nowadays, I'm more of a science nerd as you can see, but to be fair, it's not all bad news with the changes I mentioned above.


I am aware that CS is about a lot more than I mentioned in my post. I suppose I am just a bit bitter because I enjoy C but I do not enjoy Java but it is my school's choice for most of my degree. I think I really would have enjoyed CS back when C was an industry standard and all its minutiae an essential part of your average CS degree. I guess in general I have trouble enjoying oop. I would rather solve issues related to dynamic memory management and pointers than issues with classes and inheritance. I don't hate oop and I appreciate it's strengths but I do get extremely frustrated when its taught as the one correct way to do things. I have talked to a lot of CS graduates who have never heard of lisp or functional programming and cannot comprehend the idea that something is NOT an object; I even met one guy who didn't know that Java syntax is a C based . I am generalizing a lot here but I don't anyone will deny that there a lot of serious problems with the way most schools are teaching CS these days.
Blisse
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Canada3710 Posts
September 30 2013 23:53 GMT
#7243
On September 30 2013 18:30 CorsairHero wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 30 2013 13:37 Blisse wrote:
Did anyone invest in a pair of good monitors? I think I'm finally at the point where I can justify going out and buying two nice 27" high quality monitors... I can't live like this lol http://i.imgur.com/iytArKe.jpg

Why not just get 2 24" 1200p monitors? 27 seems like overkill unless the screen is quite far away..


My workplace has dual mirrored 27" and I often find myself wanting the other 27" for random stuff like design assets, reference or using the emulator. Plus, my current monitors have the worst colour reproduction I've ever experienced which makes any sort of design work a huge question mark.

I finally feel like I'm at the point where I legitimately have a reason to get bigger monitors rather than just wanting something more.
There is no one like you in the universe.
CorsairHero
Profile Joined December 2008
Canada9491 Posts
October 01 2013 02:04 GMT
#7244
On October 01 2013 08:53 Blisse wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 30 2013 18:30 CorsairHero wrote:
On September 30 2013 13:37 Blisse wrote:
Did anyone invest in a pair of good monitors? I think I'm finally at the point where I can justify going out and buying two nice 27" high quality monitors... I can't live like this lol http://i.imgur.com/iytArKe.jpg

Why not just get 2 24" 1200p monitors? 27 seems like overkill unless the screen is quite far away..


My workplace has dual mirrored 27" and I often find myself wanting the other 27" for random stuff like design assets, reference or using the emulator. Plus, my current monitors have the worst colour reproduction I've ever experienced which makes any sort of design work a huge question mark.

I finally feel like I'm at the point where I legitimately have a reason to get bigger monitors rather than just wanting something more.


I see. Well if price isn't a concern here:

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0039648BO/?tag=googhydr-20&hvadid=15202261461&hvpos=1t1&hvexid=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=15458988971605050752&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=e&hvdev=c&ref=pd_sl_7xfdu70pp4_e

While I haven't used this monitor specifically, I've had positive experiences with other models from the U series. Back when I was looking up monitors (22" to 24") The Dell U series seemed to have the most positive reviews.
© Current year.
Blisse
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Canada3710 Posts
October 01 2013 02:13 GMT
#7245
Canada whoo, so Amazon is no go. Shipping and brokerage is deadly. I've been staring at the U2713HM for a while, hopefully waiting until it drops under $550, can't believe I didn't pull the trigger then.
There is no one like you in the universe.
ObliviousNA
Profile Joined March 2011
United States535 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-01 02:29:59
October 01 2013 02:26 GMT
#7246
I just got twin U2713hms. Yes they're expensive, but they're practically orgasmic to code on. SO much screen space it's ridiculous. Excellent color, crisp text. You need good eyes with win7 DPI scaling though. The ones I got from Amazon (mini sale last week, 600 instead of 630) were revision A00 July '13, totally defect free. They seem to have fixed their QC issues, at least for their distribution centers delivering to CA.

I'd recommend them to anyone doing serious coding, if they can afford it.

My monitors:
+ Show Spoiler +

bb code? http://i.imgur.com/Ea2kBjs.jpg
[image loading]

Theory is when you know everything but nothing works. Practice is when everything works but no one knows why. In our lab, theory and practice are combined: nothing works and no one knows why.
Abominous
Profile Joined March 2013
Croatia1625 Posts
October 01 2013 06:03 GMT
#7247
On October 01 2013 07:46 Kambing wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 01 2013 07:15 Abominous wrote:Back in the days, programming had scientific background, now kids fresh out of high school are typing lines of code knowing what it does but not why and how. Face it, programming has become trivial.


Those two sentences contradict each other. If kids are writing code that they don't understand, then programming is far from trivial. What can be said is that, we're still learning how to effectively teach it when the ground underneath us changes rapidly.

They understand the code, not the work behind it. And in todays world, 90% of programmers do not need to understand what's going on behind and why.
Creepseep
Profile Joined July 2012
Germany9 Posts
October 01 2013 06:18 GMT
#7248
On October 01 2013 15:03 Abominous wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 01 2013 07:46 Kambing wrote:
On October 01 2013 07:15 Abominous wrote:Back in the days, programming had scientific background, now kids fresh out of high school are typing lines of code knowing what it does but not why and how. Face it, programming has become trivial.


Those two sentences contradict each other. If kids are writing code that they don't understand, then programming is far from trivial. What can be said is that, we're still learning how to effectively teach it when the ground underneath us changes rapidly.

They understand the code, not the work behind it. And in todays world, 90% of programmers do not need to understand what's going on behind and why.


You don't get what todays software development is all about. Of course you're right stating some kids may be able to write quite a few applications on their own. But todays programmers mostly do not develop kinda small applications on their own but working on huge software systems in which you have to be aware of possible race conditions, concurrencies, ... and implement every little aspect with the greater system in mind. That's the difference.
Tobberoth
Profile Joined August 2010
Sweden6375 Posts
October 01 2013 06:21 GMT
#7249
On October 01 2013 15:03 Abominous wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 01 2013 07:46 Kambing wrote:
On October 01 2013 07:15 Abominous wrote:Back in the days, programming had scientific background, now kids fresh out of high school are typing lines of code knowing what it does but not why and how. Face it, programming has become trivial.


Those two sentences contradict each other. If kids are writing code that they don't understand, then programming is far from trivial. What can be said is that, we're still learning how to effectively teach it when the ground underneath us changes rapidly.

They understand the code, not the work behind it. And in todays world, 90% of programmers do not need to understand what's going on behind and why.

Just like programmers in the old days didn't have to know exactly how a CPU is wired electronically.

It's just another level of abstraction. It gives more power to programmers at lesser cost, but the actual problem-solving is the same. One the one hand, you can be pissed that someone can, for example, make a flash game more advanced that NES games with less than half the knowledge of the people making the actual NES games... on the other hand, you can appreciate that the programmers of those days could not make modern games with the tools at hand.

Yeah, simple shit is easier to make today, but the difference between a bad and good programmer isn't shown in simple things. The level you have to perform at to be considered a really good programmer today has simply been raised, it's not enough to be able to do some sweet optimization on a sorting algorithm, you have to be able to juggle big code bases and far more calculations per second.
Manit0u
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
Poland17864 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-01 06:52:41
October 01 2013 06:50 GMT
#7250
Heh, you guys have it good. Discussing C and Java as learning platforms...

When I was in highschool they forced us to learn in Turbo Pascal, what an atrocity this was. I had to learn some C myself, then moved on to C++ and LPC. Personally, I think that it doesn't really matter what will be your first programming language, as long as you learn it well switching to and learning others will be much easier (most of the time, I'd very much love to get into Python but I love my braces too much, even though I understand how it works I refuse to do it the "python way"). Although python might be great for beginners since it's relatively easy to learn and it at least teaches you proper code formatting (and there's nothing worse than having to work with someone who is very poor at that).
Time is precious. Waste it wisely.
Soohyung
Profile Joined April 2012
Korea (South)116 Posts
October 01 2013 12:43 GMT
#7251
On October 01 2013 15:50 Manit0u wrote:
Heh, you guys have it good. Discussing C and Java as learning platforms...

When I was in highschool they forced us to learn in Turbo Pascal, what an atrocity this was. I had to learn some C myself, then moved on to C++ and LPC. Personally, I think that it doesn't really matter what will be your first programming language, as long as you learn it well switching to and learning others will be much easier (most of the time, I'd very much love to get into Python but I love my braces too much, even though I understand how it works I refuse to do it the "python way"). Although python might be great for beginners since it's relatively easy to learn and it at least teaches you proper code formatting (and there's nothing worse than having to work with someone who is very poor at that).

I had to program in Object Pascal last year which wasn't really fun or good either... I guess I'm just gonna go ahead and learn a real language now.
이지은
tec27
Profile Blog Joined June 2004
United States3727 Posts
October 01 2013 21:48 GMT
#7252
Object Pascal is a fine language; its the first language I did anything substantial in. There's also a ton of useful Starcraft utilities that have been written in it (e.g. ChaosLauncher). It certainly counts as a real language.
Can you jam with the console cowboys in cyberspace?
Roe
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Canada6002 Posts
October 01 2013 22:12 GMT
#7253
On October 01 2013 11:26 ObliviousNA wrote:
I just got twin U2713hms. Yes they're expensive, but they're practically orgasmic to code on. SO much screen space it's ridiculous. Excellent color, crisp text. You need good eyes with win7 DPI scaling though. The ones I got from Amazon (mini sale last week, 600 instead of 630) were revision A00 July '13, totally defect free. They seem to have fixed their QC issues, at least for their distribution centers delivering to CA.

I'd recommend them to anyone doing serious coding, if they can afford it.

My monitors:
+ Show Spoiler +

bb code? http://i.imgur.com/Ea2kBjs.jpg
[image loading]



just testing if I can tell which languages those are off-hand, was that C# on the left, and C++ on the right?
Yoshi-
Profile Joined October 2008
Germany10227 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-01 22:37:00
October 01 2013 22:17 GMT
#7254
That is not c++, the main function returns void, which is normally not allowed, because most of the times that is just wrong, but he also uses void as a parameter, so seems like C for some not standard compiler/system(if not he and the compiler who allows that should be shot)

E: Okay MSVC actual compiles void main(), but unless there is an actual reason to use that(which I kinda doubt) don't use it.
misirlou
Profile Joined June 2010
Portugal3319 Posts
October 01 2013 22:19 GMT
#7255
My high school started programming with Pascal and my university starts with Scheme. Overall I think both are good languages to start giving your baby steps before you start sprinting on java or c++.
DeltaX
Profile Joined August 2011
United States287 Posts
October 01 2013 22:31 GMT
#7256
I actually think the reason a lot of programs start you off with an underused language and fairly simple language (mine was scheme) is so they can focus more on concepts than on the language itself. With C++, you will have a harder time getting through the basics, and the class might want to look at other areas of programming like html/css if it is an intro course. This could provide a nice foundation for programming concepts while being as accessible as possible as an intro class. The second programming class I took was much more intense than the intro class (C++ with lots of lab time in addition to normal classwork).
billy5000
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States865 Posts
October 01 2013 23:28 GMT
#7257
Like many others, my school uses java also. I've learned some languages that are more suitable for the web (php, node.js), but now I'm looking for an all-purpose language for everyday tasks and ideas. I actually wouldn't mind java for this, but having some experience with other "more up-to-date" languages such as scala and python, java doesn't cut it for me. It's just not an elegant language--the same reason why I'm not looking to pick up C for a general purpose language. And the reason why I'm not continuing with python is that the code can get really funky when you want to implement algorithms in its idiomatic way (also, I'm still not used to looking at a heavily nested code with just indents).

So far I thinking about Go, but I was wondering if you guys had other suggestions.
Tiger got to hunt, bird got to fly; Man got to sit and wonder, 'Why, why, why?' Tiger got to sleep, bird got to land; Man got to tell himself he understand. Vonnegut
misirlou
Profile Joined June 2010
Portugal3319 Posts
October 01 2013 23:55 GMT
#7258
On October 02 2013 08:28 billy5000 wrote:
Like many others, my school uses java also. I've learned some languages that are more suitable for the web (php, node.js), but now I'm looking for an all-purpose language for everyday tasks and ideas. I actually wouldn't mind java for this, but having some experience with other "more up-to-date" languages such as scala and python, java doesn't cut it for me. It's just not an elegant language--the same reason why I'm not looking to pick up C for a general purpose language. And the reason why I'm not continuing with python is that the code can get really funky when you want to implement algorithms in its idiomatic way (also, I'm still not used to looking at a heavily nested code with just indents).

So far I thinking about Go, but I was wondering if you guys had other suggestions.


Maybe look into C# and .Net if you want to have easy access to a GUI, not much different from java or c++. I love node and php (and i hate ruby, and by extension, rails) but I dont get to code much web stuff.
But if you want elegant, nothing better than plain C. Its just beautiful how it works so flawlessly
sluggaslamoo
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
Australia4494 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-02 00:56:18
October 02 2013 00:52 GMT
#7259
On October 01 2013 15:21 Tobberoth wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 01 2013 15:03 Abominous wrote:
On October 01 2013 07:46 Kambing wrote:
On October 01 2013 07:15 Abominous wrote:Back in the days, programming had scientific background, now kids fresh out of high school are typing lines of code knowing what it does but not why and how. Face it, programming has become trivial.


Those two sentences contradict each other. If kids are writing code that they don't understand, then programming is far from trivial. What can be said is that, we're still learning how to effectively teach it when the ground underneath us changes rapidly.

They understand the code, not the work behind it. And in todays world, 90% of programmers do not need to understand what's going on behind and why.

Just like programmers in the old days didn't have to know exactly how a CPU is wired electronically.

It's just another level of abstraction. It gives more power to programmers at lesser cost, but the actual problem-solving is the same. One the one hand, you can be pissed that someone can, for example, make a flash game more advanced that NES games with less than half the knowledge of the people making the actual NES games... on the other hand, you can appreciate that the programmers of those days could not make modern games with the tools at hand.

Yeah, simple shit is easier to make today, but the difference between a bad and good programmer isn't shown in simple things. The level you have to perform at to be considered a really good programmer today has simply been raised, it's not enough to be able to do some sweet optimization on a sorting algorithm, you have to be able to juggle big code bases and far more calculations per second.


Then why start with Java. Why not use Haskell?

1. Its a "higher level of abstraction" to Java.
2. You can write things with less code.
3. You can problem solve better with Haskell
4. You don't have to worry about memory management as much as Java

Here's a quicksort implementation in Java

Java
+ Show Spoiler +


package de.vogella.algorithms.sort.quicksort;

public class Quicksort {
private int[] numbers;
private int number;

public void sort(int[] values) {
if (values ==null || values.length==0){
return;
}
this.numbers = values;
number = values.length;
quicksort(0, number - 1);
}

private void quicksort(int low, int high) {
int i = low, j = high;
int pivot = numbers[low + (high-low)/2];

while (i <= j) {
while (numbers[i] < pivot) {
i++;
}
while (numbers[j] > pivot) {
j--;
}

if (i <= j) {
exchange(i, j);
i++;
j--;
}
}

if (low < j)
quicksort(low, j);
if (i < high)
quicksort(i, high);
}

private void exchange(int i, int j) {
int temp = numbers[i];
numbers[i] = numbers[j];
numbers[j] = temp;
}
}



Here's the same function converted to Haskell
qsort (p:xs) = qsort [x | x<-xs, x<p] ++ [p] ++ qsort [x | x<-xs, x>=p]


Ok fine ill be nice
quicksort (p:xs) = (quicksort lesser) ++ [p] ++ (quicksort greater)
where
lesser = filter (< p) xs
greater = filter (>= p) xs


If you are going to mention that people shouldn't start on advanced concepts like functional programming as a beginner I am going to say well beginners shouldn't be starting with OO either for the exact same reason.

If you are going to say the Haskell implementation is more complicated because as a beginner its too cryptic, well then lets look at something trivial like Hello world.

Java
class HelloWorldApp {
public static void main(String[] args) {
System.out.println("Hello World!"); // Display the string.
}
}


C
main() {
printf("Hello World");
}


Haskell
putStrLn "Hello, World!"


Note that Java is the most complicated of the lot.

Note that it would take an equivalent amount of time to explain what "class" and "static void" mean, than it would to explain any terminology in Haskell. I'm not saying that we should use Haskell to teach beginners, I am showing the illogical reasoning behind teaching Java as a first language and exposing the silliness of the argument with the example of Haskell.

I'm not saying people should learn how a CPU is wired, because you don't need to know that to program, however you need to know Structured Programming to write good OOP code. You don't use assembly or binary in programming, but you always use Structured Programming no matter what, and without learning Structured Programming you are missing out on an essential fundamental platform with which you should base all your programming on.
Come play Android Netrunner - http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=409008
Kambing
Profile Joined May 2010
United States1176 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-02 01:07:01
October 02 2013 01:05 GMT
#7260
On October 02 2013 09:52 sluggaslamoo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 01 2013 15:21 Tobberoth wrote:
On October 01 2013 15:03 Abominous wrote:
On October 01 2013 07:46 Kambing wrote:
On October 01 2013 07:15 Abominous wrote:Back in the days, programming had scientific background, now kids fresh out of high school are typing lines of code knowing what it does but not why and how. Face it, programming has become trivial.


Those two sentences contradict each other. If kids are writing code that they don't understand, then programming is far from trivial. What can be said is that, we're still learning how to effectively teach it when the ground underneath us changes rapidly.

They understand the code, not the work behind it. And in todays world, 90% of programmers do not need to understand what's going on behind and why.

Just like programmers in the old days didn't have to know exactly how a CPU is wired electronically.

It's just another level of abstraction. It gives more power to programmers at lesser cost, but the actual problem-solving is the same. One the one hand, you can be pissed that someone can, for example, make a flash game more advanced that NES games with less than half the knowledge of the people making the actual NES games... on the other hand, you can appreciate that the programmers of those days could not make modern games with the tools at hand.

Yeah, simple shit is easier to make today, but the difference between a bad and good programmer isn't shown in simple things. The level you have to perform at to be considered a really good programmer today has simply been raised, it's not enough to be able to do some sweet optimization on a sorting algorithm, you have to be able to juggle big code bases and far more calculations per second.


Then why start with Java. Why not use Haskell?

1. Its a "higher level of abstraction" to Java.
2. You can write things with less code.
3. You can problem solve better with Haskell
4. You don't have to worry about memory management as much as Java

...


Some people would argue that Haskell meets those goals better than Java. For example, I would be in that camp. The problem is that Haskell is not as accepted in industry as Java (and other alternatives) which is a detriment for most people.
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