EPT
Good luck. OS is a bitch.
The Big Programming Thread - Page 1008
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Thread Rules 1. This is not a "do my homework for me" thread. If you have specific questions, ask, but don't post an assignment or homework problem and expect an exact solution. 2. No recruiting for your cockamamie projects (you won't replace facebook with 3 dudes you found on the internet and $20) 3. If you can't articulate why a language is bad, don't start slinging shit about it. Just remember that nothing is worse than making CSS IE6 compatible. 4. Use [code] tags to format code blocks. | ||
tofucake
Hyrule19221 Posts
Good luck. OS is a bitch. | ||
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WarSame
Canada1950 Posts
In particular I'm looking at this as a contractor. | ||
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necrosexy
451 Posts
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Silvanel
Poland4767 Posts
On August 19 2019 12:20 WarSame wrote: How do you reconcile business decisions that are not agile(i.e. contracts, SOWs) with agile methodology? It seems to me like they are opposing forces. Agile should be letting you develop at maximum effort and push value as you go, whereas contracts force you to conform to a waterfall based approach. Do you just do agile within waterfall? In particular I'm looking at this as a contractor. Its sometimes very difficult. My company (Harman) is very closely aligned with our customer (Daimler) and feedback loop is extremly short and fast. People from Daimler often take part in our meetings and problem discussions, sometimes changing the priority of tasks (for example when some new problem is discovered). We have find out that most agile methodolgies do not work very well in that environemnt and being bound by their rules was actually more of a inconvenience than boon (at least from the delivery perspective - from employee perspective it was perhaps better). So at least in my company buisness constarints make agile methodologies unfeeseble because being bound to any methodology is not possible due to nature of relationship between supplier/customer in this case. As an example: telling customer something wont be delivered because sprint was already in progress and we cant add anthing is a no go in our case. | ||
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Blitzkrieg0
United States13132 Posts
On August 19 2019 12:20 WarSame wrote: How do you reconcile business decisions that are not agile(i.e. contracts, SOWs) with agile methodology? It seems to me like they are opposing forces. Agile should be letting you develop at maximum effort and push value as you go, whereas contracts force you to conform to a waterfall based approach. Do you just do agile within waterfall? In particular I'm looking at this as a contractor. I feel like this has more to do with how rigid fixed cost projects are than a problem with waterfall or agile methodologies. Waterfalling is the natural end with a fixed cost project because what you're delivering can't really change unless you want to deal with a bunch of change requests and the nightmare that entails. It's a mindset shift for the business itself to value and make use of the flexibility of agile. On August 19 2019 16:29 Silvanel wrote: As an example: telling customer something wont be delivered because sprint was already in progress and we cant add anthing is a no go in our case. This is an easily solvable problem though. In our case it makes it much easier to say, you can have that but what is lower priority that you are giving up for it? | ||
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Silvanel
Poland4767 Posts
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Excludos
Norway8263 Posts
On August 19 2019 21:54 Silvanel wrote: Things dont work like that when the value of project is 1mld euro trust me. The project I currently work on costs somewhere north of 3 mill euro yearly. Nearly all businesses decisions where money is involved is going to be rigid, but that doesn't mean you can't conform to agile within your work team. Agile doesn't mean you can't have goals (that's what the backlog is for after all), but that those goals are likely to change. So in the first place you never want to promise a spesific program that works in a spesific way, but rather you want to find out what the customer goals are, and promise an application that will suit their needs (and then bring the customer/owner in for bi-weekly reviews to keep them updated and allow them to provide inputs. Hell, we bring them in 2 times a week to join our stand-ups. They're really happy to be part of the process). | ||
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Silvanel
Poland4767 Posts
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Blitzkrieg0
United States13132 Posts
On August 19 2019 21:54 Silvanel wrote: Things dont work like that when the value of project is 1mld euro trust me. Couldn't figure out what this was in freedom units with a quick google search, but my experience is in the defense industry in the US so either just as big or larger almost certainly. On August 19 2019 22:15 Silvanel wrote: I didnt make a mistake its 1mld not 1mln. With that kind of money on the line the ralations between companies become pathological with all managerial levels of corporations (including the very top) promising/demanding something. My manger reports to customer 2-3 times a day and we often have some high level customer represnatative on site. This sounds like a super rigid business that isn't willing to adapt to make use of agile development exactly like I was talking about. If you have the customer on site regularly to plan, demo, and adapt then I don't see why you can't be agile though. | ||
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Excludos
Norway8263 Posts
On August 19 2019 22:15 Silvanel wrote: I didnt make a mistake its 1mld not 1mln. With that kind of money on the line the ralations between companies become pathological with all managerial levels of corporations (including the very top) promising/demanding something. My manger reports to customer 2-3 times a day and we often have some high level customer represnatative on site. The fact that your bosses are being rigid and doesn't want to use agile is not a very useful reply to the question of "how can we mix the two?". The answer is, as we laid out before, very possible, if the will is there. The amount of money doesn't matter, as agile is about optimising the process to make a service that the customer wants, and not the one the customer thought he wanted and then regrets. It's also a much more effective way to do things in IT, so claiming someone doesn't do it because they're using a lot of money isn't really a legit answer. The truth is that they're doing it because that's the only way they know how and they're scared to try something new. And lastly, no way in hell does your one program cost 1 milliard euros. The total of the whole project, including hardware and such, I can easily see coming to that price. But that doesn't mean you got a budget of 1 mld to spend on programmers and booze. The budget will be broken down into tinier pieces, of which your team gets a bit of. If I was to take the whole budget of the entirety of the new platform that Equinor works on, which my team's program is going to be used on, then we're suddenly talking 6 mld euros. Yet we're here using agile no problem. | ||
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Silvanel
Poland4767 Posts
Second how did You come to the conclusion its for booze? Its project value or the amount paid by customer, many things are covered by that: salaries, hardware, external software licenses etc. | ||
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Excludos
Norway8263 Posts
On August 20 2019 00:31 Silvanel wrote: First where did You get idea we dont want to use agile? We hired two external companies on two separate occasions to implement agile in the project. It costed huge amount of money and time and was huge failure on both occasions. I want to know more about this. How did that happen? Why did it fail? This sounds very peculiar. Like I said I currently work for a company that has a 60 billion (or milliard, if you want to use reasonable metrics) annual revenue, and we use agile across the entire board when it comes to software development. It just results in software that is much more likely to be of actual use. On August 20 2019 00:31 Silvanel wrote: Second how did You come to the conclusion its for booze? It was a joke. But legitly tho, booze was part of the project cost for a company I used to work at a couple of years ago.. Well, maybe not officially. I'm assuming it went under "other expenses". On August 20 2019 00:31 Silvanel wrote: Its project value or the amount paid by customer, many things are covered by that: salaries, hardware, external software licenses etc. Can I ask what the project is? | ||
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WarSame
Canada1950 Posts
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Silvanel
Poland4767 Posts
So Excludos You work for Intel right? (judging by the revenue) As to the agile fail it is complicated issue obviously. I do not feel comfortable discussing details on internet. I will just say that Daimler is both one of the most damanding and better paying customers. Combine that with enourmous size od the project, dependenace on many external SW and HW suppliers (including Intel btw  ), set in stone deadlines, extremely short feedback loops it turned out there is no agile framework suitebale for project of this size. Still we use some "agile" parts, just not the whole frameworks. | ||
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Neneu
Norway492 Posts
On August 20 2019 21:31 Silvanel wrote: The project is development of new generation of SW for Daimler (mostly Mercedes, but not limited to it) cars. So Excludos You work for Intel right? (judging by the revenue) As to the agile fail it is complicated issue obviously. I do not feel comfortable discussing details on internet. I will just say that Daimler is both one of the most damanding and better paying customers. Combine that with enourmous size od the project, dependenace on many external SW and HW suppliers (including Intel btw ), set in stone deadlines, extremely short feedback loops it turned out there is no agile framework suitebale for project of this size. Still we use some "agile" parts, just not the whole frameworks.Think it is more likely he works for Equinor (if I remember correctly they had about 61ish $ billion revenue in 2017). Now I don't know how it is working with them, but from my own experience in Stavanger, almost every single IT company or company with its own IT department uses agile frameworks here. | ||
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mahrgell
Germany3943 Posts
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Blitzkrieg0
United States13132 Posts
On August 20 2019 21:31 Silvanel wrote: The project is development of new generation of SW for Daimler (mostly Mercedes, but not limited to it) cars. So Excludos You work for Intel right? (judging by the revenue) As to the agile fail it is complicated issue obviously. I do not feel comfortable discussing details on internet. I will just say that Daimler is both one of the most damanding and better paying customers. Combine that with enourmous size od the project, dependenace on many external SW and HW suppliers (including Intel btw ), set in stone deadlines, extremely short feedback loops it turned out there is no agile framework suitebale for project of this size. Still we use some "agile" parts, just not the whole frameworks.Except shorter feedback cycles is the whole point of agile. Fail fast and adapt. Scaling can be problematic for sure, but it seems like a systemic business problem rather than an agile problem from what you've posted. Every example you've given so far of agile failing is where it is superior to waterfall so either your company has some amazing business process that is superior to both or it doesn't want to change. On August 20 2019 23:19 mahrgell wrote: Well... There are certainly more major IT companies not using agile. E.g. the second largest european software company (no name, but you can figure it out, im sure) still goes 95% waterfall and any agile parts are basically teams hiding this from upper managment by somehow filling their wonderful dashboards.l Just think about how long your engineers have been using agile and then wonder why you're still stuck in the early 2000s. | ||
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Excludos
Norway8263 Posts
On August 20 2019 22:54 Neneu wrote: Think it is more likely he works for Equinor (if I remember correctly they had about 61ish $ billion revenue in 2017). Now I don't know how it is working with them, but from my own experience in Stavanger, almost every single IT company or company with its own IT department uses agile frameworks here. Yeah. I think I even said so earlier. I'm a consultant, but my current project is with Equinor. Like you said, I don't think there's a single company left in Norway that doesn't use it. It's just superior in every way really. But I know a lot of other countries are slow to adapt. A lot because they don't have the know-how, and a lot because they're driven by older business men who doesn't understand it, and doesn't like change. On August 20 2019 21:31 Silvanel wrote: Combine that with enourmous size od the project, dependenace on many external SW and HW suppliers (including Intel btw ), set in stone deadlines, extremely short feedback loops it turned out there is no agile framework suitebale for project of this size. Still we use some "agile" parts, just not the whole frameworks.You see this is what I don't understand. Short feedback loops is exactly the whole point of agile. Waterfall is the type you use when you have very long/no feedback loops; you are asked to do a project, and half a year later you deliver. With Agile you constantly talk to the customer and adapt. Like I said earlier, we talk to the customer 2 times a week, and we have a sprint review every other week. There is nothing that says agile can't have strict deadlines, in fact it's built around it. Every sprint you are required to have a working product. This makes it easy to hone in on the deadlines, because at the end of the day you will always have something that works, so you're never going to be in a situation where you need extra time to deliver. It's just a question of what features you had time to put in there. | ||
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Silvanel
Poland4767 Posts
On August 20 2019 23:52 Blitzkrieg0 wrote: Except shorter feedback cycles is the whole point of agile. Fail fast and adapt. Scaling can be problematic for sure, but it seems like a systemic business problem rather than an agile problem from what you've posted. Every example you've given so far of agile failing is where it is superior to waterfall so either your company has some amazing business process that is superior to both or it doesn't want to change. Just think about how long your engineers have been using agile and then wonder why you're still stuck in the early 2000s. Please remember that my post was a response to question about business constraints affecting/interacting with agile, this is precisly that. Our feedback loop is so short that i am sometimes asked to change my focus several times a day. This is really tasking and is a result of not healthy buisness realtionship we have. | ||
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WarSame
Canada1950 Posts
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