ATLANTA (AP) - About a quarter of the swine flu vaccine produced for the U.S. public has expired — meaning that a whopping 40 million doses worth about $260 million are being written off as trash.
"It's a lot, by historical standards," said Jerry Weir, who oversees vaccine research and review for the U.S. Food and Drug Administration.
The outdated vaccine, some of which expired Wednesday, will be incinerated. The amount, as much as four times the usual leftover seasonal flu vaccine, likely sets a record. And that's not even all of it.
About 30 million more doses will expire later and may go unused, according to one government estimate. If all that vaccine expires, more than 43 percent of the supply for the U.S. public will have gone to waste.
Federal officials defended the huge purchase as a necessary risk in the face of a never-before-seen virus. Many health experts had feared the new flu could be the deadly global epidemic they had long warned about, but it ended up killing fewer people than seasonal flu.
"Although there were many doses of vaccine that went unused, it was much more appropriate to have been prepared for the worst case scenario than to have had too few doses," said Bill Hall, spokesman for U.S. Department of Health and Human Services.
Most leading health experts generally agree with that.
Millions of doses of flu vaccine typically go unused every year and are marked for burning, but in recent years the leftovers amounted to closer to 10 percent of the supply, rather than the 25 percent expiring now. Government flu experts couldn't recall throwing away anything close to 40 million doses before.
The new H1N1 swine flu emerged in April last year, hitting children and young adults particularly hard. It was difficult to predict how deadly it might be or how easily it might spread. Federal health officials pushed five vaccine manufacturers to produce a vaccine as quickly as possible. What's more, they wanted a lot of it — many experts thought most people would need two doses for it to work.
The government placed three orders last year for a combined total of nearly 200 million doses — an unprecedented amount and almost double the amount of vaccine made in recent years for seasonal flu.
About 162 million doses were meant for the general public. Another 36 million included doses for the military and other countries.
But demand never took off, for several reasons:
—Tests of the vaccine soon showed only one dose was enough to protect most people.
—Much of the vaccine was not ready until late 2009, after the largest wave of swine flu illnesses passed.
—Swine flu turned out not to be as deadly as was first feared. About 12,000 deaths have been attributed to it — or roughly a third of the estimated annual deaths from seasonal flu.
So while people were waiting hours for swine flu vaccinations in some cities in October and November, by January local health departments were trying gimmicks to get anyone at all to come in for a shot.
Government officials have known for months that they were looking at a huge surplus. According to an Associated Press calculation based on federal purchasing information, the dollar value of the 40 million expired doses is about $261 million. The government didn't release an official figure, but Hall said the AP estimate was approximately correct.
In Europe, where nations also found themselves with millions of unused doses, some commentators have attacked the World Health Organization, which declared swine flu a global epidemic, or pandemic. The critics have questioned the motivation of some WHO advisers who had links to the pharmaceutical industry.
Some critics have simply lamented that a lot of anxiety was raised and money wasted, not just during the swine flu scare but also in government responses to bird flu and SARS, a respiratory virus that swept parts of Asia in 2003.
"Each time the so-called experts told us that millions of people would be killed worldwide by the respective viruses. We have learned that the experts were utterly wrong," said Dr. Ulrich Keil, a professor at Germany's prestigious University of Muenster and a WHO adviser.
"This behavior is irresponsible because the angst campaigns ... confuse the priority setting in public health," he said. The death toll from influenza epidemics is much smaller than the number killed annually by chronic illnesses like heart disease, cancer, stroke and diabetes, he added, in an e-mail.
Unused flu vaccine is a common problem. The June 30 expiration date is set by the FDA and has less to do with the vaccine's shelf life than the desire to tweak the recipe each year to protect against the three flu strains expected to cause the most illness.
"It's not necessarily because it's degraded or not potent," said Dr. Mark Mulligan, an Emory University vaccine researcher.
In the past year, about 114 million doses of seasonal flu vaccine were distributed. The government thinks most of that was used — demand was unusually high because of fear o swine flu.
Who didn't see this coming.. why didn't i invest in pharma stocks? D;
Attack WHO as much as you want, but no one could know how dangerous the virus would be, and I'm glad WHO took a little too much precautions rather than not enough precautions.
People knew exactly how dangerous this swine flu would be - NOT DANGEROUS AT ALL. Nearly as harmful as the regular flu, pharmaceutical companies advertised the swiner flu with scare tactics to make a ton of money on an unneeded vaccine.
definitely obama's fault. his embracing science and being an intellectual is doing more harm than good for this country. wasting 250million when we're in financial crisis!?!?!
What's kinda funny is that if they had better advertisement campaigns for the vaccine, this wouldn't be an issue. All the vaccine would have been "used" and not many people would stop to think that it was a waste.
It's usually pretty hard to argue for either side since there seems to be a lot of misinformation going around.
The flu *could* have been dangerous. Potentially it could actually have caused a scenario like was seen during the spanish flu, which was disastrous. The mass vaccinations were not to protect the average person from inevitable death, but rather to protect us from the worst case scenario.
While the swine flu deaths were in a different target group than the seasonal flu, it was not at all dangerous to catch (although it made for a pretty shit week, let me tell you) - there is however, a case to be made for herd immunity.
I agree with the above posts. No one knew how dangerous the virus could have been, but at the same time, there was kind of a huge overreaction to the flu. I don't know if this was so for you guys in the areas that you are from, but where I'm from we started calling it the overreaction flu. There was really nothing to suggest that this flu was different from any other strain of flu. At the same time though, I respect the world health organization for putting people's lives ahead of profiteering.
That's $6.25 per flu shot. Whatever pharmaceutical produced and packaged these for the government made bank. Too bad this cost didn't include national distribution, because then they might have actually been shipped out where needed instead of sitting in warehouses.
On July 02 2010 03:11 Liquid`NonY wrote: What's kinda funny is that if they had better advertisement campaigns for the vaccine, this wouldn't be an issue. All the vaccine would have been "used" and not many people would stop to think that it was a waste.
On July 02 2010 03:05 nitram wrote: People knew exactly how dangerous this swine flu would be - NOT DANGEROUS AT ALL. Nearly as harmful as the regular flu, pharmaceutical companies advertised the swiner flu with scare tactics to make a ton of money on an unneeded vaccine.
Lol? Thats what ppl said abt bird flu and now look at indonesia. The fatalities are ridiculously high cos of living conditions and the disease is still there and we are just incubating a stronger virus by not fixing it. But no1 batts an eyelid cos news doesnt see it as important.
And yeah i got reccommended to buy the stocks. But i had money in coal instead which worked out better
fucking joke country we live in. "hey lets make tons of this worthless vaccine because someone told us this new strain of flu is dangerous (even though there are new strains every year)" but tbh, 260$ mil is nothing for a loss compared to the debt with everything else.
On July 02 2010 03:05 nitram wrote: People knew exactly how dangerous this swine flu would be - NOT DANGEROUS AT ALL. Nearly as harmful as the regular flu, pharmaceutical companies advertised the swiner flu with scare tactics to make a ton of money on an unneeded vaccine.
Lol? Thats what ppl said abt bird flu and now look at indonesia. The fatalities are ridiculously high cos of living conditions and the disease is still there and we are just incubating a stronger virus by not fixing it. But no1 batts an eyelid cos news doesnt see it as important.
And yeah i got reccommended to buy the stocks. But i had money in coal instead which worked out better
You realize according to the WHO there's been less than 300 deaths worldwide attributed to bird flu right?
On July 02 2010 03:08 Coca Cola Classic wrote: definitely obama's fault. his embracing science and being an intellectual is doing more harm than good for this country. wasting 250million when we're in financial crisis!?!?!
you have a problem with someone embracing science while typing a message from your computer on an internet forum? please go back to whatever cave you came from and never come out
On July 02 2010 03:08 Coca Cola Classic wrote: definitely obama's fault. his embracing science and being an intellectual is doing more harm than good for this country. wasting 250million when we're in financial crisis!?!?!
you have a problem with someone embracing science while typing a message from your computer on an internet forum? please go back to whatever cave you came from and never come out
/sarcasm?
edit: my comment was a reflection of what i expect to be hearing over the next few days. I work for US Dept HHS.
EDIT: Sorry I misunderstood. I thought you were asking if I was being sarcastic. My apologies. Please tell those people at your office to go back to their caves for me.
Overhyped fake crisis met with proper skepticism, doo dah, doo dah.
That's not to say that there aren't real health problems related to the influenza virus; it's just that the H1N1 swine flu was just blown totally out of proportion. That's $250m that could have been used for something useful, like helping poor people. Just kidding, I meant slaughtering innocent civilians half a world away.
On July 02 2010 03:24 CharlieMurphy wrote: fucking joke country we live in. "hey lets make tons of this worthless vaccine because someone told us this new strain of flu is dangerous (even though there are new strains every year)" but tbh, 260$ mil is nothing for a loss compared to the debt with everything else.
Let's spend 700$ billions on the military, most of which is completely useless... Yeah...
On July 02 2010 03:41 MangoTango wrote: Overhyped fake crisis met with proper skepticism, doo dah, doo dah.
That's not to say that there aren't real health problems related to the influenza virus; it's just that the H1N1 swine flu was just blown totally out of proportion. That's $250m that could have been used for something useful, like helping poor people. Just kidding, I meant slaughtering innocent civilians half a world away.
God, tell me about it. What a waste of money and manpower.
No one I know got vaccinated, nor did I hear about anyone I know getting the virus. Only like 8,000 people on Earth have died from it.
More people died from illegal firearms in the US last year than people killed by a "worldwide epidemic", sounds like the nation needs to get its priorities straight.
On July 02 2010 03:08 Coca Cola Classic wrote: definitely obama's fault. his embracing science and being an intellectual is doing more harm than good for this country. wasting 250million when we're in financial crisis!?!?!
You sir are a deluded man. Wake up, you can't blame everything on one person, and there's more to the story than what they tell.
edit: nvm read your other post, sarcasm is realllly easy to spot on the interweb
I don't understand how anybody can complain about this, blaming the US government that it wasted money on "useless vaccines". The US government (just like many other governments around the world) had to buy these vaccines. The public demanded them because everybody was afraid of the swine flu. If you want to blame someone blame the media that reported missleading information and the ignorance of the masses that were too blind/lazy/ignorant to look up some credible information about the swine flu.
On July 02 2010 03:41 MangoTango wrote: Overhyped fake crisis met with proper skepticism, doo dah, doo dah.
That's not to say that there aren't real health problems related to the influenza virus; it's just that the H1N1 swine flu was just blown totally out of proportion. That's $250m that could have been used for something useful, like helping poor people. Just kidding, I meant slaughtering innocent civilians half a world away.
God, tell me about it. What a waste of money and manpower.
No one I know got vaccinated, nor did I hear about anyone I know getting the virus. Only like 8,000 people on Earth have died from it.
More people died from illegal firearms in the US last year than people killed by a "worldwide epidemic", sounds like the nation needs to get its priorities straight.
(edit: grammar mistake)
It was arguably an overreaction in order to prevent what was regarded as a possible "pandemic". Naturally it didn't happen but did you see how scared people were. There was this insane girl in school who wore one of those blue masks ALL THE TIME, and this is nothing compared to other places.
On one side, I understand why people regard this as an huge fluke - it appears to be. Millions of dollars to prevent* a crisis that never happened. Now pay attention, the money was spent to -PREVENT- a crisis.
There are two possibilities: 1: It would have died off on its own without the help of the vaccine, probably killing a few more people. (Arguably the likely outcome) 2: It would have mutated and expanded and killed more people. (Unlikely in H1N1)
Basically, we disarmed a bomb not knowing whether or not it was real. If it was a real bomb, it was disarmed and nobody will ever know what could have happened. If it was a fake bomb, we "wasted" that money by being cautious.
When something like this happens, it's in our interest for people to be at least moderately scared so they start practicing basic hygiene and stop sneezing in my face.
Next time a deadly virus pops out, should we wait for it to be dangerous before we start spending money on fixing it, or is it worth it to spend more money in trying to patch it up early even if it may turn out to be useless?
I have a friend in TX who was hospitalized for a while because of this virus. He has a condition, something about his kidneys not working properly I believe. He couldn't get the vaccine because of it. His brother could have used the vaccine. Turns out, his brother got it (pull through easily) and gave it to my friend, who's immune system is garbage. He almost died.
One of the reasons to get the vaccine is to avoid giving the virus to other people.
Either way that's how I feel =)
Cheers.
scare tactics created to have us buying a vaccine that had not even been tested long term.
Well, the people who manufacture this vaccine work for a business. Businesses aim to make profit. Profit is made by selling as much of their product as possible. Businesses control pretty much every branch of the government, and have a large amount of media influence. Fill in the blanks.
Q: How many people have died from the 2009 swine flu pandemic?
US: 3 March 2010 -- As of 12 February 2010, According to the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), it is estimated* that since the beginning of the pandemic, the US has had approximately 57 million cases of A-H1N1/09 Pandemic Swine Flu and approximately 11,690 resulting deaths. Based upon this, an estimate of the mortality rate in the US from the pandemic is 0.02%.
In comparison, the CDC and World Health Organization (WHO) have estimated that with seasonal flu, "we see over 30 million cases in the United States. We see 200,000 hospitalizations and, on average, 36,000 deaths." (During the entire fall and winter flu season.) Based upon this, the average mortality rate of seasonal flu in the US would be 0.12 %.
answers.com
so, maybe it was highly contagious. but how dangerous was it actually? how did the media portray it?
But, despite this - I will say there is much greater corruption and much worse things to be upset about.
On July 02 2010 03:24 Holcan wrote: North American Governments, systematically exploiting tax payers dollars to line the inside of private investors pockets since 1776.
I had actually had some friends from the U.S. that refused to come to Mexico with me during Spring Break cause they were afraid of catching SWINE "GASP!"
The friends that did come ended up having the time of their lives and endearingly named the trip "Swine Time 09" haha.
You know Korea stopped buying pork from Mexico cause of this??? FREAKING PORK Poor Mexican business men... :'(
Sweden has the same fucking issue. We spent like 80 million dollars on vaccines for something that was no more dangerous then the common flu. 80 million dollars can get you a lot of fucking health care for the citizens. Instead we got a mass vaccination campaing that didnt cure shit except send more money to Big Pharma. Where the fuck is the regulations and the police? Who cares about the robber that got away with 10k and is hiding in a cave somewhere. Go after these guys!
So in my state every person living in the dorms at WSU got swine flu. They had to close the school.
It's not just about deaths, its also about loss of revenue due to people not being at work. And the "scare tactic" propaganda from the pharmaceutical companies must have worked as infection rates were lower everywhere else.
Having worked in a care provider job I got the priority vaccine and I have to say it was pretty fuckin nice to be able to help people and not have to miss school.
On July 02 2010 03:41 MangoTango wrote: Overhyped fake crisis met with proper skepticism, doo dah, doo dah.
That's not to say that there aren't real health problems related to the influenza virus; it's just that the H1N1 swine flu was just blown totally out of proportion. That's $250m that could have been used for something useful, like helping poor people. Just kidding, I meant slaughtering innocent civilians half a world away.
God, tell me about it. What a waste of money and manpower.
No one I know got vaccinated, nor did I hear about anyone I know getting the virus. Only like 8,000 people on Earth have died from it.
More people died from illegal firearms in the US last year than people killed by a "worldwide epidemic", sounds like the nation needs to get its priorities straight.
(edit: grammar mistake)
It was arguably an overreaction in order to prevent what was regarded as a possible "pandemic". Naturally it didn't happen but did you see how scared people were. There was this insane girl in school who wore one of those blue masks ALL THE TIME, and this is nothing compared to other places.
On one side, I understand why people regard this as an huge fluke - it appears to be. Millions of dollars to prevent* a crisis that never happened. Now pay attention, the money was spent to -PREVENT- a crisis.
There are two possibilities: 1: It would have died off on its own without the help of the vaccine, probably killing a few more people. (Arguably the likely outcome) 2: It would have mutated and expanded and killed more people. (Unlikely in H1N1)
Basically, we disarmed a bomb not knowing whether or not it was real. If it was a real bomb, it was disarmed and nobody will ever know what could have happened. If it was a fake bomb, we "wasted" that money by being cautious.
When something like this happens, it's in our interest for people to be at least moderately scared so they start practicing basic hygiene and stop sneezing in my face.
Next time a deadly virus pops out, should we wait for it to be dangerous before we start spending money on fixing it, or is it worth it to spend more money in trying to patch it up early even if it may turn out to be useless?
I have a friend in TX who was hospitalized for a while because of this virus. He has a condition, something about his kidneys not working properly I believe. He couldn't get the vaccine because of it. His brother could have used the vaccine. Turns out, his brother got it (pull through easily) and gave it to my friend, who's immune system is garbage. He almost died.
One of the reasons to get the vaccine is to avoid giving the virus to other people.
scare tactics created to have us buying a vaccine that had not even been tested long term.
You don't know how vaccines work x_x
Vaccines are more than necessary for many people with illnesses. Mass production of a vaccine for the public to prevent a virus we knew months in advance was about as harmful as the common cold is overreaction.
Being in the business of prevention and security sucks for this reason. If you're doing your job right, people are going to be ungrateful bastards. If you fail at your job people are still gonna blame you.
You get shitted on when you fail, you get criticized when you succeed. It's catch-22 at it's best.
Having said that, "better safe than sorry" still isn't always the proper response. But in this case I think WHO did a decent job since there was a legitimate reason to be cautious. Anyone can dictate what should've been done after everythings been settled. But thats why those people aren't the decision makers. We need people to make decisions as things are happening, not when its all over.
On July 02 2010 04:21 travis wrote: Well, the people who manufacture this vaccine work for a business. Businesses aim to make profit. Profit is made by selling as much of their product as possible. Businesses control pretty much every branch of the government, and have a large amount of media influence. Fill in the blanks.
Q: How many people have died from the 2009 swine flu pandemic?
US: 3 March 2010 -- As of 12 February 2010, According to the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), it is estimated* that since the beginning of the pandemic, the US has had approximately 57 million cases of A-H1N1/09 Pandemic Swine Flu and approximately 11,690 resulting deaths. Based upon this, an estimate of the mortality rate in the US from the pandemic is 0.02%.
In comparison, the CDC and World Health Organization (WHO) have estimated that with seasonal flu, "we see over 30 million cases in the United States. We see 200,000 hospitalizations and, on average, 36,000 deaths." (During the entire fall and winter flu season.) Based upon this, the average mortality rate of seasonal flu in the US would be 0.12 %.
answers.com
so, maybe it was highly contagious. but how dangerous was it actually? how did the media portray it?
But, despite this - I will say there is much greater corruption and much worse things to be upset about.
Exactly! It had nothing to do with keeping the public safe, we knew it was relatively harmless to the average person when the first reports came out. The article should read "$250 million in lost profits for pharmaceutical companies".They weren't "over-prepared", they were over-ambitious.
On July 02 2010 03:24 CharlieMurphy wrote: fucking joke country we live in. "hey lets make tons of this worthless vaccine because someone told us this new strain of flu is dangerous (even though there are new strains every year)" but tbh, 260$ mil is nothing for a loss compared to the debt with everything else.
Sorry sir but the only thing thats a "fucking joke" is that no matter what the goverment does they wont win with people like you around, if they didn't make enough there would be this article with "250 million spare that could have been used on vaccacines .. how much is a life really worth??"
If i was american i would be quite proud my country were willing to spend so much money to insure my safety.
On July 02 2010 03:24 CharlieMurphy wrote: fucking joke country we live in. "hey lets make tons of this worthless vaccine because someone told us this new strain of flu is dangerous (even though there are new strains every year)" but tbh, 260$ mil is nothing for a loss compared to the debt with everything else.
Sorry sir but the only thing thats a "fucking joke" is that no matter what the goverment does they wont win with people like you around, if they didn't make enough there would be this article with "250 million spare that could have been used on vaccacines .. how much is a life really worth??"
If i was american i would be quite proud my country were willing to spend so much money to insure my safety.
uh, just so it's clear - that money comes from tax payers. it's not like the companies that makes the drugs put up the money... it's everyone. and it's already been shown that it wasn't necessary. do you just skip over posts that might invalidate your opinions?
Most people are so stupid... just blindly accepting everything they are told. Do you think people out there don't take advantage of the public to make millions/billions of dollars? this question goes to all of you.
On July 02 2010 03:24 CharlieMurphy wrote: fucking joke country we live in. "hey lets make tons of this worthless vaccine because someone told us this new strain of flu is dangerous (even though there are new strains every year)" but tbh, 260$ mil is nothing for a loss compared to the debt with everything else.
Sorry sir but the only thing thats a "fucking joke" is that no matter what the goverment does they wont win with people like you around, if they didn't make enough there would be this article with "250 million spare that could have been used on vaccacines .. how much is a life really worth??"
If i was american i would be quite proud my country were willing to spend so much money to insure my safety.
you got it wrong, since American Politicians and Pharmaceutical companies are in close ties, decisions like this usually make the American people pay, while the Politicians get more money from private business.
[B]On July 02 2010 03:24 CharlieMurphy wrote: fucking joke country we live in. "hey lets scare the entire world into thinking they might die cos we have tons of this worthless vaccine so they buy it. If they don't we'll just change their laws so its mandatory lolz." but tbh, 260$ mil is nothing for a loss compared to the debt with everything else.
Fixed.
It's been known well before the "outbreak" that they were sitting on a shit ton of vaccine that was about to expire, old news. Conspiracy (read: common sense) theorists were right again.
The media could have handled it a lot better than making it "breaking news". Yeah it's urgent news in the sense it's a "holy shit potential epidemic", but the way it was broadcasted made it seem like a mini national emergency that had people go into panic mode for even just a little bit. All that personal hygiene precautions should be common sense instead of being urgent breaking news being reported en masse to the public.
Those little bottles of hand sanitizer started appearing everywhere in our school.
I'm not sure how true this rumor is, but anyone diagnosed with H1N1 got excused from having to attend classes for 2 weeks. Any assignment missed during that time could be made up in the 2 weeks after the semester ended.
We had posters all over the dorms and every fucking building on campus that were basically telling us "If you're sick, don't come to class! We don't mind!"
On July 02 2010 07:01 DROPPINBOMBS wrote: I love the fact that the biggest morons are incharge of some of the most important things on this planet.
I think this is a misconception. Some of them are idiots, yeah. But I think a lot of them are perfectly intelligent and know exactly what they are doing.
[B]On July 02 2010 03:24 CharlieMurphy wrote: fucking joke country we live in. "hey lets scare the entire world into thinking they might die cos we have tons of this worthless vaccine so they buy it. If they don't we'll just change their laws so its mandatory lolz." but tbh, 260$ mil is nothing for a loss compared to the debt with everything else.
Fixed.
It's been known well before the "outbreak" that they were sitting on a shit ton of vaccine that was about to expire, old news. Conspiracy (read: common sense) theorists were right again.
On July 02 2010 03:24 CharlieMurphy wrote: fucking joke country we live in. "hey lets make tons of this worthless vaccine because someone told us this new strain of flu is dangerous (even though there are new strains every year)" but tbh, 260$ mil is nothing for a loss compared to the debt with everything else.
Sorry sir but the only thing thats a "fucking joke" is that no matter what the goverment does they wont win with people like you around, if they didn't make enough there would be this article with "250 million spare that could have been used on vaccacines .. how much is a life really worth??"
If i was american i would be quite proud my country were willing to spend so much money to insure my safety.
uh, just so it's clear - that money comes from tax payers. it's not like the companies that makes the drugs put up the money... it's everyone. and it's already been shown that it wasn't necessary. do you just skip over posts that might invalidate your opinions?
How does your statement contradict anything he said?
Of course the government budget comes from the tax payers. However, taxes are paid anyway and then the government can decide how to allocate its budget.
Yes, the vaccines were not really neccessary and the swine flu itself wasn't nearly as dangerous as it was said to be. However, let's not forget that an incredibly large portion of Western people were very afraid of the illness anyhow. The public driven by its fear and ignorance demanded the vaccines. If you want to blame anyone blame the misleading media and the ignorance of the masses. So basically people were demanding that the government acts quickly and effectivelly to ensure the health of everyone, so huge amounts of vaccines were ordered. Then the people were to lazy to go to a doctor and get a vaccine, so the leftovers are now thrown away and the people complain about the government that did exactly what it was demanded to do.
Most people are so stupid... just blindly accepting everything they are told. Do you think people out there don't take advantage of the public to make millions/billions of dollars? this question goes to all of you.
As true as this statement might be, it is just about as irrelevant to this case. As already mentioned the people demanded the vaccines and the government had to buy them. You cannot even blame them for not negotiating a lower price, because then everybody would have been complaining that the government is putting a price tag on people's lifes.
Seriously, some people. The flu ends up being an almost non-event, and OMG THE GOVERNMENT WASTED ALL OUR MONIEZ!!! If the flu had been an event and the government wasn't prepared, then OMG WHY DIDNT THE GOVERNMENT SPEND OUR MONIEZ ON VACCINES?!
It's SOOOO easy to use hindsight to condemn things. Swine flu may not have been that deadly but it was fairly contagious, and it takes one mutation to kill a lot of people. Not getting the vaccines would've been like playing Russian Roulette, albeit with maybe one bullet in a hundred real, but if it was that one, we would've been fucked.
On July 02 2010 07:20 RisingTide wrote: Seriously, some people. The flu ends up being an almost non-event, and OMG THE GOVERNMENT WASTED ALL OUR MONIEZ!!! If the flu had been an event and the government wasn't prepared, then OMG WHY DIDNT THE GOVERNMENT SPEND OUR MONIEZ ON VACCINES?!
It's SOOOO easy to use hindsight to condemn things. Swine flu may not have been that deadly but it was contagious as fuck, and it takes one mutation to kill a lot of people. Not getting the vaccines would've been like playing Russian Roulette, albeit with maybe one bullet in a hundred real, but if it was that one, we would've been fucked.
That's the problem tho, you're right on almost everything but most people will dismiss everything you say based on the fact that you said it's "contagious as fuck". It wasn't THAT contagious. The thing is, it takes one mutation to get contagious as fuck. That's why it's dangerous - and people don't understand. Biology isn't everyone's cup of tea, but in this thread they're all experts.
Especially the "truthers". They got their PhD overnight. "IT'S FAIRLY HARMLESS NOW AND THEREFORE WE SHOULD DO NOTHING"
Nothing pisses me off like idiots who dismiss the opinion of professional virologists, microbiologists etc as false and would rather turn to useless tinfoil hat blogs raving about various unprovable conspiracy theories for advice. This particular strain was very recently emerged, due to bad information there were indications that it was fairly fatal and contagious. Even if it wasn't, most actual scientists who btw are the only people with even the faintest chance at understanding and predicting the scenario agreed that the risk of mutation was big enough that governments needed to take measures.
Just imagine if no government had done anything, and this newly emerged strain of flu mutated into something much worse. Then there would be a massive outcry so basically the truth of the matter is governments can't really go either way without their decision being deemed as stupid and wasteful by a large chunk of the population.
And just because it didn't play out a certain way gives these people no right in saying "hey what did I tell you?" because it doesn't mean shit.
On July 02 2010 07:26 hifriend wrote: Nothing pisses me off like idiots who dismiss the opinion of professional virologists, microbiologists etc as false and would rather turn to useless tinfoil hat blogs raving about various unprovable conspiracy theories for advice. This particular strain was very recently emerged, due to bad information there were indications that it was fairly fatal and contagious. Even if it wasn't, most actual scientists who btw are the only people with even the faintest chance at understanding and predicting the scenario agreed that the risk of mutation was big enough that governments needed to take measures.
Just imagine if no government had done anything, and this newly emerged strain of flu mutated into something much worse. Then there would be a massive outcry so basically the truth of the matter is governments can't really go either way without their decision being deemed as stupid and wasteful by a large chunk of the population.
And just because it didn't play out a certain way gives these people no right in saying "hey what did I tell you?" because it doesn't mean shit.
I think they did their part in creating a viable cure for the people that needed it. The overproduction of the antivirus was a little over-ambitious, but understandable.
On July 02 2010 03:24 CharlieMurphy wrote: fucking joke country we live in. "hey lets make tons of this worthless vaccine because someone told us this new strain of flu is dangerous (even though there are new strains every year)" but tbh, 260$ mil is nothing for a loss compared to the debt with everything else.
Sorry sir but the only thing thats a "fucking joke" is that no matter what the goverment does they wont win with people like you around, if they didn't make enough there would be this article with "250 million spare that could have been used on vaccacines .. how much is a life really worth??"
If i was american i would be quite proud my country were willing to spend so much money to insure my safety.
uh, just so it's clear - that money comes from tax payers. it's not like the companies that makes the drugs put up the money... it's everyone. and it's already been shown that it wasn't necessary. do you just skip over posts that might invalidate your opinions?
How does your statement contradict anything he said?
Of course the government budget comes from the tax payers. However, taxes are paid anyway and then the government can decide how to allocate its budget.
Yes, the vaccines were not really neccessary and the swine flu itself wasn't nearly as dangerous as it was said to be. However, let's not forget that an incredibly large portion of Western people were very afraid of the illness anyhow. The public driven by its fear and ignorance demanded the vaccines. If you want to blame anyone blame the misleading media and the ignorance of the masses.
you make a good point, you are correct
anyways my statement doesn't so much contradict what he says as correct an apparent misconception in it. he says "he would be proud that his country is willing to pay so much to protect people's lives". but that doesn't mean anything, there is nothing to be proud of. it's just money that's leached away from individual tax payers but they are too stupid to realize how this money is leached from them and given to big business over and over and over. It's not like the masses actually consented to anything, it was never their decision. I could make a list of literally hundreds of examples where the tax payers are being ripped off.. and guess where that money is going.
u know how much i have to pay to renew my license? $40. you know how much it used to be, not too long ago? $4. That's a 1000% increase. How fair is that to people in poverty. abso-fuckin-lutely ridiculous. how could the paperwork cost anywhere near that, it's insane.
i just get so tired of the mass sheep being repeatedly ripped off, being deceived, and none of them caring because they are so stupid and complacent. the world is going to shit around them and none of them care because they just repeat whatever they are told by the tv or by their parents/peers who are equally stupid and just repeat what they are told by the t.v. and their peers.
as for "experts" making policy regarding our health, the head of the FDA is appointed by politicians, not experts. the head of the CDC is appointed by politicians, not experts. these groups are political and like all other government bodies, integrity is far from their primary concern.
The fear of swine flue was that while regular flu only kills the old and already sick, Swine flu actually killed healthy and young people.
Never got my shot, never had the flu. Power to me but also i realised the abysmal amount of danger that made parents invest in having their child take a shot for their system to have defence against it. xD
dont get why that had so much odd stuff inside with massive amounts of side effects though, i thought vaccines where small amounts of dead virus cells to put your immune system on high alert as it absorbed the knowledge of swine flu while killing already dead virus cells
well maybe it was because the conspiracy was right .
wanna hear something funny:
my friend told me, back when the vaccine was out and swine flu was still a big deal, he ran across a website that had a conspiracy theory about the vaccines. the theory stated that the vaccine was actually distributed by the government for they predicted the world would be over-populated and we would run out of resources blah blah blah. the vaccines were given so that in 20 years or something the "side effects" would kill off a supposed large amount of the population thus to control it. oh and the swine flu was created by the government for blah blah blah.
I think they simply over produced, they should have made vaccine for the groups that are susceptible to death from a flu. Edit - and no more than that.
government fucked up again... nothing new to see here.
On a side note, the media overblew the demand for the vaccine, everyone knew that the swine flu wasn't any worse than the seasonal flu. I didn't get this vaccine and I've never gotten a vaccine for the seasonal flu, ever, and ive never gotten the flu.
On July 02 2010 08:32 EmeraldSparks wrote: There was a chance that the flu would turn out to be a virulent KILLEMALL 1918 redux strain.
In that event, it would be fantastic that many many vaccines were made.
It is the job of the government to plan for the 10% or so chance that everything goes to shit.
We got lucky. Hooray.
Actually swine flu existed in the 50's and 60's and was eliminated back then (purely because different flu strains took over), we didn't get lucky at all, the flu itself was never as bad as the government (actually more specifically the media) made it out to be. Sure it's worse than a regular flu, and some people can die from it - IF THEY HAVE A PRE-EXISTING CONDITION - meaning that if you are a healthy person swine flu will affect you the same as any other flu. People saying there's a 'small chance the virus could mutate and become deadly' don't seem to realize that there's a small chance that could happen with one of the other hundreds of flu viruses out there.
Furthermore the regular flu season that comes around every year we see all these advertisements saying 'get the flu vaccine, stop the spread of the virus' but the thing they don't tell you (and most people don't realize) is that those vaccines only cover a handful of countless different flu viruses out there. Swine flu is one such virus that is NOT covered by the normal vaccine (but probably will be henceforth) - in this case an old virus came back and the government / pharm companies weren't ready for it - they panicked. Quite simply it is not nearly as dangerous a virus as people made it out to be, and every single flu season that goes by there's a chance an old/new/unexpected virus can pop up that the current vaccine doesn't cover and again we'll hear 1000s of news reports saying how the virus is 'the worst epidemic possible'.
Few people died from swine flu, and all that did die were in a select target group (that as a matter of fact is the same target group that dies seasonally in the thousands from REGULAR FLU VIRUSES). The media likes to sensationalize everything and since there was nothing good to report on when swine flu happened, guess what they reported on. The 'epidemic' was greatly over-stated.
Finally, if they REALLY wanted to stop the virus properly, you know what they would have done? The day Mexico announced the virus had appeared everyone who had been in or out of Mexico for the past two months would be called up, tested, and if they carry the virus vaccinated/quarantined as necessary. They didn't. And that means 1. the virus wasn't as serious as the media made it seem and 2. the government wasn't THAT concerned about the virus spreading.
On July 02 2010 03:24 CharlieMurphy wrote: fucking joke country we live in. "hey lets make tons of this worthless vaccine because someone told us this new strain of flu is dangerous (even though there are new strains every year)" but tbh, 260$ mil is nothing for a loss compared to the debt with everything else.
Sorry sir but the only thing thats a "fucking joke" is that no matter what the goverment does they wont win with people like you around, if they didn't make enough there would be this article with "250 million spare that could have been used on vaccacines .. how much is a life really worth??"
If i was american i would be quite proud my country were willing to spend so much money to insure my safety.
you got it wrong, since American Politicians and Pharmaceutical companies are in close ties, decisions like this usually make the American people pay, while the Politicians get more money from private business.
Uhh. Im pretty sure the company that made the vaccine was australian and if you could be bothered looking at the stock it did not grow a ridiculous amount over the time of the virus. Infact it was overvalued and went down for a while. I know cos a friend bought the stock and was stuck there for a while. The company wasnt even breaking even before they found the vaccine. I dont know if pharmas had that much hype in usa but i def think you are overeacting to this one case, the bs medical hype like replacing flu and cold medicine with shit that doesnt work is pharma marketing. hey! Cant make ice with it but it doesnt work when i have the flu!
1. fabricate or overhype something 2. sell products like crazy ----
hey it's the healthcare industry and we want the entire world safe right? sell me an automatic rifle please for the war i'll never fight in my backyard.
On July 02 2010 08:33 Jenbu wrote: government fucked up again... nothing new to see here.
On a side note, the media overblew the demand for the vaccine, everyone knew that the swine flu wasn't any worse than the seasonal flu. I didn't get this vaccine and I've never gotten a vaccine for the seasonal flu, ever, and ive never gotten the flu.
Sorry for the double post (maybe someone else already posted after my previous one in which case never mind)
- I think one of the reasons that new and/or old viruses seem to popping up more frequently is the heavy use of medication and vaccines in all aspects of daily life. Don't misunderstand me here - vaccines are a good thing in most cases (and by this I mean cases where the disease/virus in question is immediately life threatening for healthy people). The flu and the cold are not such viruses, but all the time people take themselves and their young children to the doctor for even the mildest cases of both of these. Giving your immune system a crutch every single time you get sick ends up resulting in one having a poor immune system. Immune systems work by trial and error, if you don't get sick (or don't let you immune system eliminate illnesses on its own) it will never improve and it will get to the point where the person in question is frequently sick.
When someone is seriously ill they should certainly go to the doctor, I fear that more and more frequently though people are incapable of determining what 'seriously ill' is. I was sick about as often as any child was when I was younger but my parents didn't rush me off the doctor or hospital every time I had a sniffle or a cough. Nowadays I very rarely get sick, and when I do get a cold or flu, it lasts 3-5 days tops. I can almost guarantee if my parents had been overly anxious when I got sick as a child, this probably wouldn't be the case now.
On July 02 2010 03:24 CharlieMurphy wrote: fucking joke country we live in. "hey lets make tons of this worthless vaccine because someone told us this new strain of flu is dangerous (even though there are new strains every year)" but tbh, 260$ mil is nothing for a loss compared to the debt with everything else.
Sorry sir but the only thing thats a "fucking joke" is that no matter what the goverment does they wont win with people like you around, if they didn't make enough there would be this article with "250 million spare that could have been used on vaccacines .. how much is a life really worth??"
If i was american i would be quite proud my country were willing to spend so much money to insure my safety.
uh, just so it's clear - that money comes from tax payers. it's not like the companies that makes the drugs put up the money... it's everyone. and it's already been shown that it wasn't necessary. do you just skip over posts that might invalidate your opinions?
How does your statement contradict anything he said?
Of course the government budget comes from the tax payers. However, taxes are paid anyway and then the government can decide how to allocate its budget.
Yes, the vaccines were not really neccessary and the swine flu itself wasn't nearly as dangerous as it was said to be. However, let's not forget that an incredibly large portion of Western people were very afraid of the illness anyhow. The public driven by its fear and ignorance demanded the vaccines. If you want to blame anyone blame the misleading media and the ignorance of the masses.
you make a good point, you are correct
anyways my statement doesn't so much contradict what he says as correct an apparent misconception in it. he says "he would be proud that his country is willing to pay so much to protect people's lives". but that doesn't mean anything, there is nothing to be proud of. it's just money that's leached away from individual tax payers but they are too stupid to realize how this money is leached from them and given to big business over and over and over. It's not like the masses actually consented to anything, it was never their decision. I could make a list of literally hundreds of examples where the tax payers are being ripped off.. and guess where that money is going.
u know how much i have to pay to renew my license? $40. you know how much it used to be, not too long ago? $4. That's a 1000% increase. How fair is that to people in poverty. abso-fuckin-lutely ridiculous. how could the paperwork cost anywhere near that, it's insane.
i just get so tired of the mass sheep being repeatedly ripped off, being deceived, and none of them caring because they are so stupid and complacent. the world is going to shit around them and none of them care because they just repeat whatever they are told by the tv or by their parents/peers who are equally stupid and just repeat what they are told by the t.v. and their peers.
as for "experts" making policy regarding our health, the head of the FDA is appointed by politicians, not experts. the head of the CDC is appointed by politicians, not experts. these groups are political and like all other government bodies, integrity is far from their primary concern.
I agree with pretty much everything you said. If you know the right political figures, be it on village level or federal level, you have a very good chance of selling your service. Then it doesn't matter if you offer the best or the cheapest service or if your service is needed at all. In every country tax money is being spent on unneccessary/overly expenisive stuff on regular basis. However, I still think that the swine flu vaccines are not a good example of money being leached from tax payers simply because a lot of people demanded the vaccines.
On July 02 2010 03:24 CharlieMurphy wrote: fucking joke country we live in. "hey lets make tons of this worthless vaccine because someone told us this new strain of flu is dangerous (even though there are new strains every year)" but tbh, 260$ mil is nothing for a loss compared to the debt with everything else.
Sorry sir but the only thing thats a "fucking joke" is that no matter what the goverment does they wont win with people like you around, if they didn't make enough there would be this article with "250 million spare that could have been used on vaccacines .. how much is a life really worth??"
If i was american i would be quite proud my country were willing to spend so much money to insure my safety.
uh, just so it's clear - that money comes from tax payers. it's not like the companies that makes the drugs put up the money... it's everyone. and it's already been shown that it wasn't necessary. do you just skip over posts that might invalidate your opinions?
How does your statement contradict anything he said?
Of course the government budget comes from the tax payers. However, taxes are paid anyway and then the government can decide how to allocate its budget.
Yes, the vaccines were not really neccessary and the swine flu itself wasn't nearly as dangerous as it was said to be. However, let's not forget that an incredibly large portion of Western people were very afraid of the illness anyhow. The public driven by its fear and ignorance demanded the vaccines. If you want to blame anyone blame the misleading media and the ignorance of the masses.
as for "experts" making policy regarding our health, the head of the FDA is appointed by politicians, not experts. the head of the CDC is appointed by politicians, not experts. these groups are political and like all other government bodies, integrity is far from their primary concern.
Experts kind of like Dr. Margaret Hamburg who graduated from Harvard Medical School while doing research in pharmacology? Or more like Dr. Tom Frieden who graduated from Columbia's medical school and did a specialization at Yale in infectious disease control. Both of whom have worked extensively with infectious diseases such as tuberculosis.
Hmmm... yea I think I would rather trust some of the experts on this forum... these sound like some pretty shifty characters.
On July 02 2010 03:24 CharlieMurphy wrote: fucking joke country we live in. "hey lets make tons of this worthless vaccine because someone told us this new strain of flu is dangerous (even though there are new strains every year)" but tbh, 260$ mil is nothing for a loss compared to the debt with everything else.
Sorry sir but the only thing thats a "fucking joke" is that no matter what the goverment does they wont win with people like you around, if they didn't make enough there would be this article with "250 million spare that could have been used on vaccacines .. how much is a life really worth??"
If i was american i would be quite proud my country were willing to spend so much money to insure my safety.
uh, just so it's clear - that money comes from tax payers. it's not like the companies that makes the drugs put up the money... it's everyone. and it's already been shown that it wasn't necessary. do you just skip over posts that might invalidate your opinions?
How does your statement contradict anything he said?
Of course the government budget comes from the tax payers. However, taxes are paid anyway and then the government can decide how to allocate its budget.
Yes, the vaccines were not really neccessary and the swine flu itself wasn't nearly as dangerous as it was said to be. However, let's not forget that an incredibly large portion of Western people were very afraid of the illness anyhow. The public driven by its fear and ignorance demanded the vaccines. If you want to blame anyone blame the misleading media and the ignorance of the masses.
as for "experts" making policy regarding our health, the head of the FDA is appointed by politicians, not experts. the head of the CDC is appointed by politicians, not experts. these groups are political and like all other government bodies, integrity is far from their primary concern.
Experts kind of like Dr. Margaret Hamburg who graduated from Harvard Medical School while doing research in pharmacology? Or more like Dr. Tom Frieden who graduated from Columbia's medical school and did a specialization at Yale in infectious disease control. Both of whom have worked extensively with infectious diseases such as tuberculosis.
Hmmm... yea I think I would rather trust some of the experts on this forum... these sound like some pretty shifty characters.
Like I said, all conspiracy theorists are self-proclaimed expert biologists.
On July 02 2010 03:24 CharlieMurphy wrote: fucking joke country we live in. "hey lets make tons of this worthless vaccine because someone told us this new strain of flu is dangerous (even though there are new strains every year)" but tbh, 260$ mil is nothing for a loss compared to the debt with everything else.
Sorry sir but the only thing thats a "fucking joke" is that no matter what the goverment does they wont win with people like you around, if they didn't make enough there would be this article with "250 million spare that could have been used on vaccacines .. how much is a life really worth??"
If i was american i would be quite proud my country were willing to spend so much money to insure my safety.
uh, just so it's clear - that money comes from tax payers. it's not like the companies that makes the drugs put up the money... it's everyone. and it's already been shown that it wasn't necessary. do you just skip over posts that might invalidate your opinions?
How does your statement contradict anything he said?
Of course the government budget comes from the tax payers. However, taxes are paid anyway and then the government can decide how to allocate its budget.
Yes, the vaccines were not really neccessary and the swine flu itself wasn't nearly as dangerous as it was said to be. However, let's not forget that an incredibly large portion of Western people were very afraid of the illness anyhow. The public driven by its fear and ignorance demanded the vaccines. If you want to blame anyone blame the misleading media and the ignorance of the masses.
as for "experts" making policy regarding our health, the head of the FDA is appointed by politicians, not experts. the head of the CDC is appointed by politicians, not experts. these groups are political and like all other government bodies, integrity is far from their primary concern.
Experts kind of like Dr. Margaret Hamburg who graduated from Harvard Medical School while doing research in pharmacology? Or more like Dr. Tom Frieden who graduated from Columbia's medical school and did a specialization at Yale in infectious disease control. Both of whom have worked extensively with infectious diseases such as tuberculosis.
Hmmm... yea I think I would rather trust some of the experts on this forum... these sound like some pretty shifty characters.
Like I said, all conspiracy theorists are self-proclaimed expert biologists.
On July 02 2010 03:24 CharlieMurphy wrote: fucking joke country we live in. "hey lets make tons of this worthless vaccine because someone told us this new strain of flu is dangerous (even though there are new strains every year)" but tbh, 260$ mil is nothing for a loss compared to the debt with everything else.
Sorry sir but the only thing thats a "fucking joke" is that no matter what the goverment does they wont win with people like you around, if they didn't make enough there would be this article with "250 million spare that could have been used on vaccacines .. how much is a life really worth??"
If i was american i would be quite proud my country were willing to spend so much money to insure my safety.
uh, just so it's clear - that money comes from tax payers. it's not like the companies that makes the drugs put up the money... it's everyone. and it's already been shown that it wasn't necessary. do you just skip over posts that might invalidate your opinions?
How does your statement contradict anything he said?
Of course the government budget comes from the tax payers. However, taxes are paid anyway and then the government can decide how to allocate its budget.
Yes, the vaccines were not really neccessary and the swine flu itself wasn't nearly as dangerous as it was said to be. However, let's not forget that an incredibly large portion of Western people were very afraid of the illness anyhow. The public driven by its fear and ignorance demanded the vaccines. If you want to blame anyone blame the misleading media and the ignorance of the masses.
as for "experts" making policy regarding our health, the head of the FDA is appointed by politicians, not experts. the head of the CDC is appointed by politicians, not experts. these groups are political and like all other government bodies, integrity is far from their primary concern.
Experts kind of like Dr. Margaret Hamburg who graduated from Harvard Medical School while doing research in pharmacology? Or more like Dr. Tom Frieden who graduated from Columbia's medical school and did a specialization at Yale in infectious disease control. Both of whom have worked extensively with infectious diseases such as tuberculosis.
Hmmm... yea I think I would rather trust some of the experts on this forum... these sound like some pretty shifty characters.
I didn't say they weren't doctors, I said they were appointed by politicians. You guys are pretty ignorant if you don't think there are plenty of doctors who play politics.
Something that has yet to be addressed in this thread is the fact that if a sudden need for a vaccine arises they cannot be produced immediately when needed. Vaccine making technology isn't exactly the most advanced due to the lack of demand, so when another wave hits, guess what?
Also, swine flu isn't just swine flu. It is a mix of human flu, avian flu, and swine flu that has mixed into a much more complex virus. Since it is a complex virus this leads to the a lot of uncertainty in how the virus will affect us. As well as its ability to spread at such a rapid rate (within 2 days 5 continents were infected) and the fact that it contained many similarities to previous pandemics such as the Asian Flu, Spanish flu, and Hong Kong flu pandemic lead to the requirement for a rapid decision.
On July 02 2010 11:03 Butigroove wrote: Proves that even experts can fall victim to media fear-mongering.
It wasn't the media that caused the initial panic, it was statistics from the Mexican health department. They were reporting numbers like 8 to 10% fatality rate with something like 150 deaths at that point, which made all of the experts shit their pants (SARS with way more transmissibility and tons of asymptomatic carriers = ). Mexican doctors underestimated the number of cases they actually had, and because we didn't complete information, the best course of action was to shit our pants and buy tons of vaccines, just in case swine flu was a repeat of the spanish flu, which killed something like 50 million people.
well, I knew this was going to happen. I didn't take the shot. It was just a flu. people die even from a "normal" flu. Swine flue was just a media thing, just like everything in this world
""Although there were many doses of vaccine that went unused, it was much more appropriate to have been prepared for the worst case scenario than to have had too few doses," said Bill Hall, spokesman for U.S. Department of Health and Human Services."
The pharmaceutics companies are great. They convinced the french ministry of health that 2 injections per person were required (while they soon realized 1 was enough). So France bought 94 millions vaccines for a total of 869 millions euros (lol wat that's like 15 euros per person). They once again soon realized that because of the number of nurses available they could only vaccinate 14 millions of people during the effective period. In the end, only 5 millions people were vaccinated. Hopefully France sold 2 millions doses to Egypt. That's still 87 millions doses wasted.
In the end, the french ministry of health definitely knew they could only vaccinate 14 millions people (just multiply the number of available nurses/doctors by the number of injections they can make daily, adjusted with estimations of other factors), and still bought 94 millions doses for 60 millions population. Either the minister is utterly retarded, either she got a nice commission fee
There was also a big misinformation campaign. Like : "omg swine flu killed 200 people !" without mentionning that regular flu kills 10 times more at the meantime. etc.
And im not even mentioning the risks of overvaccination.
And considering how powerful is the pharmaceutical lobby, I would not be surprised by ANY scenario.
On July 02 2010 12:46 n.DieJokes wrote: Better extra doses than a desolate post-apocalyptic wasteland
Hope you are being sarcrastic. If there is one day a virus as devastating as we can see in post-apocalyptic movies, the virus will be very likely (99.9%) made by a pharmaceutical company. I do not trust pharmaceutical company and never will.
They work provide a good amount of protection for young people with good immune systems...Who don't really need them in the first place and rarely get them...Don't work that great for old people with depressed immune systems...Irony.
Well at least we didn't under shot the amount of dosage needed and have riots in the streets over who gets the shots, always better to be safe than sorry.
hi i'm korean i've known this site two days ago recently i listened from anyone that there is not korean right? anyway, i'm often coming this site and i'm studying english theseday it seems to study well for me i can't speak English well so i want you understand my English i've written this forum first
Every 20 seconds a child dies from water related disease.
Every 30 seconds a child dies from hunger.
Every 30 seconds a child dies from malaria.
A handful of people died in the States and people go ballistic. Why did people invest so much and went crazy when swine flu came out? Cuz it was them being sick. I say this lose is well deserved >-> Just wash your hands next time.
On July 02 2010 13:35 MageKirby wrote: Every 20 seconds a child dies from water related disease.
Every 30 seconds a child dies from hunger.
Every 30 seconds a child dies from malaria.
A handful of people died in the States and people go ballistic. Why did people invest so much and went crazy when swine flu came out? Cuz it was them being sick. I say this lose is well deserved >-> Just wash your hands next time.
On July 02 2010 13:48 RA wrote: When everyone was scared shitless - it seemed good.
Now, it seems, people are angry so much money got wasted.
But what the hell do they want then? It's so ridiculous, be GLAD it's wasted, be glad...
I only saw waste from the beginning.
Im gonna quote my self :
There was also a big misinformation campaign. Like : "omg swine flu killed 200 people !" without mentionning that regular flu kills 10 times more at the meantime. etc.
Anyone could just wikipedia it and compare how many people die from regular flu, and how many died from swine flu, and realize it was pure bullshit.
Imagine what they could have done with the 869 millions euros of wasted vaccines (only for France).
God people are such morons. The whole point of the vaccines was to provide some protection in the case of a worst case scenario. Obviously the worst case didn't happen and now people are saying OMG Lol it was just a scam !!!
"Oh it's just a flu, I'm young and healthy it won't harm me" Also, H1N1 was not like the regular flu, educate yourself before posting ignorant opinions thanks.
Sometimes I wish there was a major deadly virus, it would do some good in weeding out the idiots in this overpopulated world.
The whole spread of swine flu was way too over-hyped. I understand that they need to produce extra in the event of a worst-case scenario, but this was just way too much; I think they could've made a much more accurate estimate as to how much should be produced. Hopefully this will serve as an example for any future mass production of vaccines.
This whole debacle is based on the fact that you people have no idea what prevention is.
Again, it's entirely possible that we got rid of virus early enough and maybe if we hadn't it would have been more dangerous. It couldn't get there because we blocked it early. You guys are basically saying "we defused the bomb therefore it couldn't explode". "why waste money on a rubber; I didn't even get sick doing it before".
In its known form, the virus was relatively harmless compared to what it could potentially have been. It's unfortunate that money was wasted, probably only saving a couple of lives in the short term. This completely ignores the fact that it's possible for a strain of flu like the H1N1 to mutate (Evolution. Look into it) and then the virus COULD be actually dangerous. We can't know whether or not this would have happened. We don't know whether or not we prevented it.
Before you start saying it was a complete waste, you need to consider those factors. It's so sad to see people being so close minded.
Why this is problematic?: "Nothing big happened, therefore nothing big could have happened" ^ Bad.
Honestly, you're all at least partially right. There was an overreaction. The thing is, if this happens again and it starts to look bad and there's potential for a dangerous mutation, I really hope nobody starts to insist that WE NEED TO SAVE A COUPLE MILLION DOLLARS.
The US could cut its military budget by one percent and cover those losses 28 times over while not losing any efficiency whatsoever.
Even if it was a waste, it's a twenty-eighth of a percent of the military budget. It's 85 cents per capita. It sucks but don't completely ignore the facts based on your television's opinion.
I didn't take the swine flu vaccine. Boy was that a mistake.
Nah, just fucking with you. A few weeks in to the scare, I came down with a flu. It went away in about three or four days, max, and the symptoms were not very severe. High fever, awful chills and such but nothing a warm blanket couldn't fix.
Talked to a doctor about it after it passed and she said "yeah, that sounds like swine flu. It's usually not as bad as regular seasonal flu."
I know it wasn't very scientific, and what I had may very well have not been swine flu without some more testing, but the University of Texas Health Services clinic phone lines were so overflowing with people overreacting to this thing they had a recording when you called in that basically said "if you think you have the swine flu, read our webpage and go away unless it becomes an emergency."
Long story short: swine flu was overhyped. Sure some people had it bad, but holy shit America.
Again another one that can't see beyond the tip of his nose. "It wasn't that bad when I had it, so it was an overreaction"... Seriously I'll have an aneurysm for being such a carebear.
Provincial government: "Oh shit, the snows are fucking ridiculous this year, this could be the fifty-year flood everybody has been shitting their pants waiting for; if we're unlucky and the river overflows the dikes it'll kill tens of thousands of people and destroy hectares and hectares of land."
Provincial response: Spend millions of dollars fortifying the dikes and evacuate low-lying areas.
Outcome: River experiences five-year flood instead of fifty-year flood.
Conclusion: "I was watching the river, and it didn't even come close to breaching the old dikes, not even close. The government wasted a shit ton of money evacuating the low-lying regions."
On July 03 2010 02:09 SilverLeagueElite wrote: Next thing you know, government will be telling us man made global warming will lead to world wide catastrophes.
Did I open a can of worms?
pharma business influencing government/media => overhyping swine flu oil/energy business influencing government/media => global warming is not happening
I do not believe for one second that the swine flu was some elaborate pharmaceutical business plan to increase revenue. There is inherent risk on the part of a pharmaceutical company to create a vaccine rapidly. First, relatively little was known about the particular strain of influenza; plenty of research was still required to understand its pathophysiology. The ability to create a vaccine in sufficient quantities is not a task that should be taken likely. It takes an incredible amount equipment, pricey equipment at that, to produce a vaccine in sufficient quantity.
The threat of a pandemic was a real possibility. If we as a society had let the virus run it's course, with no push to create a vaccine, the outcome may well have been very different. It was a concerted effort by all health organizations world wide to curtail the problem before it actually became a persistent problem (pandemic). The rapid mobilization produced results much quicker than they could have hoped for or expected. In particular, my place of work rapidly isolated patients stricken with swine flu and definitely helped limit potential exposure. There were very few cases of swine flu where I work, and I believe it is a direct result of the efforts by our institution and the awareness raised by the media.
I think a large majority of scientists, doctors, researchers etc understood the potential. Although this may not have been a major talking point within the media, I believe the media helped raise awareness to a potential problem (whether they used the word potential does not really matter, the message needed to be strong and clear) and nothing more.
As I said in the other thread, and tried to explain to others (might've been repeated in this thread too);
My mother is a nurse, she worked purely with the swine flu epidemic the entire fall. So I believed her when she said that the swine flu was much weaker than the regular season flu, and barely anyone's getting a vaccine for that. So none of us did. Some got a little sick, but from what I've heard we were better off than many who TOOK the vaccine (some got really sick, others had pains in their arm for a good while)
But I don't blame the government for the wasted money. They are no doctors themselves, so they can't really be 100% sure it *won't* blast off. If it HAD, and they hadn't bought enough vaccine, people would be even more pissed than now.
The media just had a louder voice than the doctors.
It's very easy for people to say, in retrospect, that this was a waste of money and to site some stupid statistics showing X disease claims more lives per year so, therefore, we shouldn't have worried about swine flu. Hey, people who have never taken a course on virology know more than those at WHO because they have access to Wikipedia!
Had there been an actual pandemic and had the WHO, along with other health organizations, not been so aggressive in their preventive measures, people would be outraged and there would be blaming going on left and right. This was really a lose-lose situation for the health organizations.
The vaccine was free for me, so I'm glad I got it nonetheless. I am glad that we were prepared this time for the worst case scenario - having to waste vaccines is much better than even the POSSIBILITY of losing many lives unnecessarily. Better safe than sorry, as the saying goes. Unless you think in dollar signs.
This is not that much about the waste of money for me. The biggest issue is that they showed us that they can do whatever the fuck they want with us if they use a little bit of media mixed with scaring people. That is just not good. From the beginning i was expecting this scenario. Yes better safe than sorry, but i really do think that this was too much from them and they knew it. Also not tested vaccine... The strange thing was that our country's main hygienist was recommending vaccination to everyone and speaking so high about it and he himself didn't want to get vaccinated. I guess he knew why. Also more than 50% of czech doctors and hospital staff refused to get vaccinated. I wonder how many lifes has been saved by the vaccine .. i guess like 10 worldwide lol, probably not even that.
On July 02 2010 13:35 MageKirby wrote: Every 20 seconds a child dies from water related disease.
Every 30 seconds a child dies from hunger.
Every 30 seconds a child dies from malaria.
A handful of people died in the States and people go ballistic. Why did people invest so much and went crazy when swine flu came out? Cuz it was them being sick. I say this lose is well deserved >-> Just wash your hands next time.
Some fun facts taken from the Swedish national Disease Health Institute:
Amount of people Dead from swine flue in Sweden after 1 year: around 7 people. All people suffered from chronically illnesses, the most notable was a cancer patient. Amount of Swedes that dies from the normal season flue each year: roughly 3.000
Amount of people that has died from swine flue world wide: around 10.000-15.000 from Season flue: estimatet to be 600.000 for 2008-2009. Amount of people estimated in Europe that has died from sun related deaths due to the incredibly hot weather this year: 30.000
On July 14 2010 20:20 Integra wrote: Some fun facts taken from the Swedish national Disease Health Institute:
Amount of people Dead from swine flue in Sweden after 1 year: around 7 people. All people suffered from chronically illnesses, the most notable was a cancer patient. Amount of Swedes that dies from the normal season flue each year: roughly 3.000
Amount of people that has died from swine flue world wide: around 10.000-15.000 from Season flue: estimatet to be 600.000 for 2008-2009. Amount of people estimated in Europe that has died from sun related deaths due to the incredibly hot weather this year: 30.000
If people think the $250 mil on swine flue vaccine was a huge waste then wait until they hear the about the money spent on the military during the Cold War. That could be even higher than 250... It didn't turn into a pandemic and we're all very glad of that. But if it had then everyone would have been bitching about why nobody expected it and made vaccines. It's a no win situation and $250 mil isn't that much.