Eye-witnesses are ehhh. Doesn't mean they aren't used, but there are quite a few cases where people who are say raped or robbed say they are "100% confident" they know it was that man in a line up, but it's not it's a police officer who was put into the line up. This is why we do line ups, memories are shit and people are lairs.
Only porb now is even if Israel releases the video people will always say they are withholding more of it, only if the videos are damming to Israel's stance of what happened will the bias people say that it's all there.
the quickest thing i could find on the subject, but i remember quite a few criminal cases which were convected on witness testimony but reversed by other evidence later such as DNA testing.
witness testimonial is only good for getting leads when you reach a dead end.
On June 05 2010 10:14 mmp wrote: Are you a troll or just looking for a smack-down? That's some first post...
He is absolutely a troll. There are well known Israeli pressure groups that organise people to go around various forums on the web to engage in propaganda war every time Israel commits such an atrocity. They track forums around the web and send out alerts any time someone posts something critical of Israel.
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We had a similar troll on the Irish community forums. Signed up on the NIGHT of the atrocity, has since made almost 300 posts. Every single one on the topic of the attack and EVERY SINGLE ONE in staunch, unwavering support for every single action of the IDF. The BBC Have your Say forums are also flooded with them.
It's completely pointless trying to debate with these guys because if you defeat them on a topic they will change it, and eventually bring the circle back to something that has already been soundly refuted.
So yeah, this might sound horribly elitest of me, but I'm generally suspicious of people with low post counts when debating this kind of issue. And especially so when they have 1 post and registered specifically to make it.
Long story short, I'm not going to engage with him, besides, I've already refuted, in one form or another in previous posts, most of the arguments he's making.
On June 05 2010 10:12 semantics wrote: Israel needs to release all the footage to a 3rd party who could be considered neutral. =p
Testimony from witnesses is relevant when it upholds and is upheld by evidence. Evidence includes autopsies of the dead. Evidence includes information from officials and organizers that neither party would furnish on their own.
Israel allegedly destroyed evidence and jammed radio communication during the incident. You would trust Israel to release whatever videos they want to and that would be the basis of an investigation? You would let the perpetrator lead the prosecution?
No, we have better standards than that.
It doesn't take an anti-Semite or a sympathizer of Hamas or a Holocaust-denier to be skeptical of Israel's credibility - particularly in the face of such overwhelming evidence.
The whole purpose of the trip was not a secret. They want to end the blockade of Gaza. The sole purpose of ending this blockade is to import concrete, building materials, and arms from Iran. There is no shortage of food, nobody is dying of starvation. They are, of course, very poor with 80% of them living on welfare. Thats sort of to be expected after 50 years on the losing side of a war against their neighbors. http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/2010/06/danish-report-from-gaza-wheres.html
The elevation of force against the Commandos is well documented now, many videos are linked in this thread. The preparation of weapons beforehand shouldn't be in question.
People so blinded by their ideology that they imagine sinister and nonsensical plots by the IDF to kill civilians and make themselves look bad, boggle my mind and offend my sensibilities. There are well documented facts in this matter which have to be ignored to pick up and run with the 'eye witness accounts' of people trying to aid Hamas.
On June 05 2010 10:14 mmp wrote: Are you a troll or just looking for a smack-down? That's some first post...
He is absolutely a troll. There are well known Israeli pressure groups that organise people to go around various forums on the web to engage in propaganda war every time Israel commits such an atrocity. They track forums around the web and send out alerts any time someone posts something critical of Israel.
Today's conflicts are won by public opinion. Now is the time to be active and voice Israel's side to the world.
Join the effort in 3 easy steps: Download and install Megaphone desktop tool Receive desktop alerts on key articles and surveys Click alerts to easily voice your opinion
Help us by reporting relevant articles and surveys. How to report
Together we can make a difference!
We had a similar troll on the Irish community forums. Signed up on the NIGHT of the atrocity, has since made almost 300 posts. Every single one on the topic of the attack and EVERY SINGLE ONE in staunch, unwavering support for every single action of the IDF. The BBC Have your Say forums are also flooded with them.
It's completely pointless trying to debate with these guys because if you defeat them on a topic they will change it, and eventually bring the circle back to something that has already been soundly refuted.
So yeah, this might sound horribly elitest of me, but I'm generally suspicious of people with low post counts when debating this kind of issue. And especially so when they have 1 post and registered specifically to make it.
Long story short, I'm not going to engage with him, besides, I've already refuted, in one form or another in previous posts, most of the arguments he's making.
Yes, that is what I was suggesting.
It would be nice if mods deleted these things in a timely manner.
On June 05 2010 10:14 mmp wrote: Are you a troll or just looking for a smack-down? That's some first post...
He is absolutely a troll. There are well known Israeli pressure groups that organise people to go around various forums on the web to engage in propaganda war every time Israel commits such an atrocity. They track forums around the web and send out alerts any time someone posts something critical of Israel.
I just haven't had anything worth contributing to the starcraft threads and try to avoid the general topic forums for a reason. The fact that you see conspiracies among those who disagree with you sort of makes me question why I bothered to respond to you at all. But it wasn't to get a response from you but to try to refute some of the garbage you've spewed to any third parties with little interest in the matter.
It's completely pointless trying to debate with these guys because if you defeat them on a topic they will change it, and eventually bring the circle back to something that has already been soundly refuted.
So yeah, this might sound horribly elitest of me, but I'm generally suspicious of people with low post counts when debating this kind of issue. And especially so when they have 1 post and registered specifically to make it.
Long story short, I'm not going to engage with him, besides, I've already refuted, in one form or another in previous posts, most of the arguments he's making.
Actually I registered a while ago to try for a beta key but then they came out with mass betakeys for everyone.
I suppose I can understand forum dwellers reaction to people dropping in for one topic/post, but thats how I post. I have little urge to get involved in contentious topics, replying to a 50page long thread takes up too much of my time and effort. I'll be out shortly and you can resume your Israeli-slandering thread. PS- since it tends to matter to types such as yourself, I am not an Israeli, Jew, or member of any Jewish group, online or otherwise.
Edit:
It would be nice if mods deleted these things in a timely manner.
Yeah, we wouldn't want any dissenting voices to interrupt your 5-minutes of hate.
Nine Turkish men on board the Mavi Marmara were shot a total of 30 times and five were killed by gunshot wounds to the head, according to the vice-chairman of the Turkish council of forensic medicine, which carried out the autopsies for the Turkish ministry of justice today.
The results revealed that a 60-year-old man, Ibrahim Bilgen, was shot four times in the temple, chest, hip and back. A 19-year-old, named as Fulkan Dogan, who also has US citizenship, was shot five times from less that 45cm, in the face, in the back of the head, twice in the leg and once in the back. Two other men were shot four times, and five of the victims were shot either in the back of the head or in the back, said Yalcin Buyuk, vice-chairman of the council of forensic medicine.
The findings emerged as more survivors gave their accounts of the raids. Ismail Patel, the chairman of Leicester-based pro-Palestinian group Friends of al-Aqsa, who returned to Britain today, told how he witnessed some of the fatal shootings and claimed that Israel had operated a "shoot to kill policy".
This all seems like appeasement to me. Whether its a guilt-trip or not, it just feels like there's this huge double-standard when it comes to Israel. I've read most of the news coming out of BBC regarding Israel and watched many interviews from their diplomats.
Now keep in mind that I haven't done any in-depth analysis of the situation, I just read the news sites and some forums that talk about politics and the likes.
Well there is a considered double standard, esp when we focus on Israel, but we don't say crap about the shit that happens in African countries, Saudi Arabia or China etc. But hey this thread is about Israel so let's focus on that.
Mostly i don't see too much outta the US news outlets mostly because the oil thing is dominating the news.
Thanks to mods for taking care of clockwork.orange's ignorance.
Semantics, I feel like I need to remind you that there were around 800 people on that ship while Israel was committing it's crime. (Correct me if the number is wrong please). Do you really believe the testimonies that are given by this many eye-witnesses is a lie and what Israel tells is the truth?
Say Israel released the footage. How do we know that it's not forged? How do we know that it will be more reliable than the eye-witness reports?
Let me answer the question for you. We don't.
I could have understood your point if there was only 1-2 eye-witnesses. But with that many people your post seems irrelevant.
On June 05 2010 10:58 semantics wrote: Well there is a considered double standard, esp when we focus on Israel, but we don't say crap about the shit that happens in African countries, Saudi Arabia or China etc. But hey this thread is about Israel so let's focus on that.
Mostly i don't see too much outta the US news outlets mostly because the oil thing is dominating the news.
I agree with you, the same action should be taken for any country that is committing the same kind of crime.
We can only hope that some good will come out of what happened and the global consciousness of the citizens of different nations will react to all these "evil" countries accordingly.
On June 05 2010 11:04 mass_ wrote: Thanks to mods for taking care of clockwork.orange's ignorance.
Semantics, I feel like I need to remind you that there were around 800 people on that ship while Israel was committing it's crime. (Correct me if the number is wrong please). Do you really believe the testimonies that are given by this many eye-witnesses is a lie and what Israel tells is the truth?
Say Israel released the footage. How do we know that it's not forged? How do we know that it will be more reliable than the eye-witness reports?
Let me answer the question for you. We don't.
I could have understood your point if there was only 1-2 eye-witnesses. But with that many people your post seems irrelevant.
Groups need to be imminently separated and not allowed to deliberate on what they thought happened, else people form one linear event, people need to be separated and interviewed one by one else a group will talk and form what happened. Which from what i gathered is not what happened.
Say Israel released the footage. How do we know that it's not forged? How do we know that it will be more reliable than the eye-witness reports?
I already pointed that out, is unless anything they release now is damming, people on the other side will always say they are withholding and cherry picking (which is obvious on their youtube account that it was mostly cherry picked footage with predefined interpretations of what happened)
In other words i believe the way Israel is dealing with what happened after they boarded and shit went down was completely wrong in to what they should have done.
On June 05 2010 11:04 mass_ wrote: Thanks to mods for taking care of clockwork.orange's ignorance.
Semantics, I feel like I need to remind you that there were around 800 people on that ship while Israel was committing it's crime. (Correct me if the number is wrong please). Do you really believe the testimonies that are given by this many eye-witnesses is a lie and what Israel tells is the truth?
Say Israel released the footage. How do we know that it's not forged? How do we know that it will be more reliable than the eye-witness reports?
Let me answer the question for you. We don't.
I could have understood your point if there was only 1-2 eye-witnesses. But with that many people your post seems irrelevant.
Groups need to be imminently separated and not allowed to deliberate on what they thought happened, else people form one linear event, people need to be separated and interviewed one by one else a group will talk and form what happened. Which from what i gathered is not what happened.
Say Israel released the footage. How do we know that it's not forged? How do we know that it will be more reliable than the eye-witness reports?
I already pointed that out, is unless anything they release now is damming, people on the other side will always say they are withholding and cherry picking (which is obvious on their youtube account that it was mostly cherry picked footage with predefined interpretations of what happened)
In other words i believe the way Israel is dealing with what happened after they boarded and shit went down was completely wrong in to what they should have done.
On June 05 2010 10:58 semantics wrote: Well there is a considered double standard, esp when we focus on Israel, but we don't say crap about the shit that happens in African countries, Saudi Arabia or China etc. But hey this thread is about Israel so let's focus on that.
Mostly i don't see too much outta the US news outlets mostly because the oil thing is dominating the news.
I agree with you, the same action should be taken for any country that is committing the same kind of crime.
We can only hope that some good will come out of what happened and the global consciousness of the citizens of different nations will react to all these "evil" countries accordingly.
Well mostly i would point out the other countries thing becuase of the UN. The UN cannot be trusted in this situation they bring like 20 cases against Israel every year for quite some time now, long before they blockaded gaza. But you never hear shit about China or Saudi Arabia.
3rd party's need to be formed that are as close to neutral as possible.
On June 05 2010 09:16 oo_xerox wrote: this has reached full circle people, its time to let it go, none of you will stop whats going on there, so yeah, lives were lost, and both sides are right and wrong, deal with it, but stop posting the same shit over and over.
It is minds like you, why this planet is at it's current state. "Stop it, you can't change what is going on." Do you realize how pathetic, how ignorant you sound? If you've ever read just a little bit of history, you would have realized it only took one person's initiative to change the world most of the time.
Mahatma Gandhi Nelson Mandela Kemal Ataturk Abraham Lincoln Martin Luther King Jr.
These figures influenced masses, and thanks to these people the world is a different place. So stop saying "none of you can do nothing."
You don't know that. You don't know if one of us decides to stop playing f.cking computer games and take action.
But you are pathetic. You think what people have been doing here is nonsense. You think people should stop exchanging ideas about something terrible that happened and go back to playing video games. You sir, want people to stop discussing a very important and a very sad fact of the world which is crimes against humanity and go back to playing computer games.
It isn't time to let it go. It never is. It is time to let go of stupid, mind numbing video games and start taking actions. It is time to unite over the internet. This is the only place where all the minds of all the different nations can unite and have their voices heard. This is the only place that we can start fixing our generation that which is also under the influence of the digital drug called the internet. We can't continue numbing our brains. It is time to use the internet for good,
So, say it with me if you agree with me;
Hi, I'm from the Republic of Internet and I'm against the crimes that are committed against humanity.
Thank you.
Yeah, you sound so smart by quoting the names of historical figures that did changed the world, however, they took action, did stuff, not argue in the INTERNET trough anonymity in a video game forum in 51 pages of redundant stuff, that is repeating itself over and over.
Its not time the let go, it never is, but be objective, this a forum, ergo its time to let go HERE, please, if you want to promote any type of protest, anyway you want to make it, contact me and ill help you, flood any Israeli/Turkish/Palestinian government website, hold signs anywhere, or at least record a fucking youtube video showing your disgust with those events, dont care how many people appear, or whatever you do, then im the first to help you, hell,i will even OPEN A THREAD about that here, and you will certainly find hundreds to support you, if you are really as bad-ass and world changing as you are, then go ahed.
But dont dare bullshiting me about writing an a forum were ideas are clashing with nonsense, even if this forum reaches 200 pages worth of valids arguments, it aint gonna change nothing, go to the UN page and PROTEST, post that same post there, and ill go ahed and post the same after you no prob, now, thats using the internet for good, you know how many people are as pissed as you are right now? hundreds of thousends, cool, but this is creating more fights, youre arguing with the wrong people, noone will change the way they think with a random guy who posted a news link and calls it a "valid point" when most links are biased, depending on who posted.
On June 05 2010 11:04 mass_ wrote: Thanks to mods for taking care of clockwork.orange's ignorance.
Semantics, I feel like I need to remind you that there were around 800 people on that ship while Israel was committing it's crime. (Correct me if the number is wrong please). Do you really believe the testimonies that are given by this many eye-witnesses is a lie and what Israel tells is the truth?
Say Israel released the footage. How do we know that it's not forged? How do we know that it will be more reliable than the eye-witness reports?
Let me answer the question for you. We don't.
I could have understood your point if there was only 1-2 eye-witnesses. But with that many people your post seems irrelevant.
The activists were on different boats, the siege lasted several hours, the raid took place at night, and there may only have been around a dozen people at any one location during the raid. People on deck of the Mavi Marmara got hit the hardest (several killed), but most stayed indoors to avoid trouble. After the event, the several hundred were detained but isolated - and are now being "deported" to their respective origins. So there hasn't been much of an opportunity to coordinate stories or discuss the matter, but individuals are being interviewed.
The IDF will have a single story regarding what happened and what did not happen. They've had three days head start to decide what their story is going to be. The videos they release will not contradict this story and any other material will be destroyed, hidden, or denied.
I don't think numbers of witnesses are the issue. Let's just get some hard physical evidence about what happened and see whose stories hold up - otherwise all we have is a he-said-she-said argument.
If a witness says the IDF fired on the ship prior to boarding, let's find those bullet holes - etc. If a witness says bodies were tossed overboard, then let's account for all of the passengers and see who is missing. Let the evidence be the judge.
There are two parties involved. One wants to expose as much information as possible. and the other seeks to conceal information. I'm going to go out on a limb and put my trust with the first.
On June 05 2010 09:55 Klaz wrote: Yes I can see how both sides were wrong.(sarcasm) How many Israeli soldiers did the aid workers execute again? It's remarkable how many people have bought the Israeli PR spin on this.
Doesn't it alert you that I just have to exchange one single word in your last sentence to describe your posts in this thread?
Actually I was just elaborating my point and wrote much more than I will post now, but I somehow have the feeling that you are not interested anyway.
Do you think that it is perfectly fine to either gamble with the lives of atleast 9 humans or risk them by being naive and ignorant? Do you really believe that there was not even the slightest sign of another motivation besides delivering aid for some of the people onboard/behind the scenes organising?
I fail to see why anyone would sympathise completely with one party in that story, except he is being involved somehow. Especially with the little trustworthy information we have.
On June 05 2010 09:16 oo_xerox wrote: this has reached full circle people, its time to let it go, none of you will stop whats going on there, so yeah, lives were lost, and both sides are right and wrong, deal with it, but stop posting the same shit over and over.
It is minds like you, why this planet is at it's current state. "Stop it, you can't change what is going on." Do you realize how pathetic, how ignorant you sound? If you've ever read just a little bit of history, you would have realized it only took one person's initiative to change the world most of the time.
Mahatma Gandhi Nelson Mandela Kemal Ataturk Abraham Lincoln Martin Luther King Jr.
These figures influenced masses, and thanks to these people the world is a different place. So stop saying "none of you can do nothing."
You don't know that. You don't know if one of us decides to stop playing f.cking computer games and take action.
But you are pathetic. You think what people have been doing here is nonsense. You think people should stop exchanging ideas about something terrible that happened and go back to playing video games. You sir, want people to stop discussing a very important and a very sad fact of the world which is crimes against humanity and go back to playing computer games.
It isn't time to let it go. It never is. It is time to let go of stupid, mind numbing video games and start taking actions. It is time to unite over the internet. This is the only place where all the minds of all the different nations can unite and have their voices heard. This is the only place that we can start fixing our generation that which is also under the influence of the digital drug called the internet. We can't continue numbing our brains. It is time to use the internet for good,
So, say it with me if you agree with me;
Hi, I'm from the Republic of Internet and I'm against the crimes that are committed against humanity.
Thank you.
Yeah, you sound so smart by quoting the names of historical figures that did changed the world, however, they took action, did stuff, not argue in the INTERNET trough anonymity in a video game forum in 51 pages of redundant stuff, that is repeating itself over and over.
Its not time the let go, it never is, but be objective, this a forum, ergo its time to let go HERE, please, if you want to promote any type of protest, anyway you want to make it, contact me and ill help you, flood any Israeli/Turkish/Palestinian government website, hold signs anywhere, or at least record a fucking youtube video showing your disgust with those events, dont care how many people appear, or whatever you do, then im the first to help you, hell,i will even OPEN A THREAD about that here, and you will certainly find hundreds to support you, if you are really as bad-ass and world changing as you are, then go ahed.
But dont dare bullshiting me about writing an a forum were ideas are clashing with nonsense, even if this forum reaches 200 pages worth of valids arguments, it aint gonna change nothing, go to the UN page and PROTEST, post that same post there, and ill go ahed and post the same after you no prob, now, thats using the internet for good, you know how many people are as pissed as you are right now? hundreds of thousends, cool, but this is creating more fights, youre arguing with the wrong people, noone will change the way they think with a random guy who posted a news link and calls it a "valid point" when most links are biased, depending on who posted.
So please, stop this.
Even if this whole discussion makes a difference in on persons life, even if it makes one person to realize what is going on in the real world, even if it makes one person to start searching on the subjects that matter a lot that means we accomplished something here.
You are still acting like an ignorant person.
How do you know that some of us are not discussing these subjects on different forums, how do you know that I'm not taking an active role in my country on this subject? How do you know that I'm not doing the things you've claimed that I'm not?
Don't you agree with me on my point? Don't you think making one person realize that there is shit going on in the world and it is bad, is worth it? If you don't, I've nothing more to say to you..
There are many smart, people playing starcraft. We don't know if the next historic person is an ex sc player, do we?
On June 05 2010 09:55 Klaz wrote: Yes I can see how both sides were wrong.(sarcasm) How many Israeli soldiers did the aid workers execute again? It's remarkable how many people have bought the Israeli PR spin on this.
Doesn't it alert you that I just have to exchange one single word in your last sentence to describe your posts in this thread?
Actually I was just elaborating my point and wrote much more than I will post now, but I somehow have the feeling that you are not interested anyway.
Do you think that it is perfectly fine to either gamble with the lives of atleast 9 humans or risk them by being naive and ignorant? Do you really believe that there was not even the slightest sign of another motivation besides delivering aid for some of the people onboard/behind the scenes organising?
I fail to see why anyone would sympathise completely with one party in that story, except he is being involved somehow. Especially with the little trustworthy information we have.
Have a good night, sir.
I'll bite.
It's entirely understandable that Israel's fears were genuine - that this was for some part a potential breach of security and dangerous materials may fall into the hands of their enemies. In this regard, no one denies ([sigh] and we never have denied) Israel's "right to defend herself," no matter how far she may take this license.
The significance of this event is that it shows people just how far Israel's paranoia and military brutality have developed. Turkey lost a handful of their nationals and is now reconsidering their relations with Israel. Nearly every head of state save the staunchest of allies has outright condemned Israel's actions. This isn't business as usual.
And please don't call what the activists did naive or ignorant. Their only ignorance was underestimating the criminal brutality of an armed military. The crux of sympathy toward Israel's treatment of the Palestinians is the belief that the IDF acts with respect and discretion - a myth that should have long since been abolished.
EPT
