On June 04 2010 06:42 Mothxal wrote: Why would the German mainstream media be anti-Israel, given its history? (I'm curious)
If you check the posts here 95% of Israel supporters either jewish, german (jewish?), british or scandinavians (I think that 1 guy from Finland is jewish too). You can tell what kind of picture they get on their TVs.
A more precise parallel to your observation would be that the people who view Israel as deserving some kind of doubt would be from countries that have issues with integrating Muslim populations within their countries. This is why their media has issues in portraying the plight of the Palestinians in a positive light. Some other countries might ignore this issue entirely, as they have more pressing matters at home to devote news time for.
As for the byebye Israel message you posted, that's doesn't help make this thread more productive, unless you can expound on how, if the international community decides to dissolve Israel for its three-score+ years of being there, would you resettle and restructure the people who will move in and out of the area. (5.5m+ Israelis moving out + 3-4m Palestinians from w/in Israel and surrounding countries moving back in.)
IMO, you're reasonable, but your recent posts haven't been as constructive as the ones from way earlier in the thread.
On June 04 2010 13:37 Ciryandor wrote: As for the byebye Israel message you posted, that's doesn't help make this thread more productive, unless you can expound on how, if the international community decides to dissolve Israel for its three-score+ years of being there, would you resettle and restructure the people who will move in and out of the area. (5.5m+ Israelis moving out + 3-4m Palestinians from w/in Israel and surrounding countries moving back in.)
IMO, you're reasonable, but your recent posts haven't been as constructive as the ones from way earlier in the thread.
I gave up on infinitely arguing the same point over and over; when someone says "our enemies will never stop attacking us and there will be no peace" it implies that the problem doesn't lie within Israel. If he doesn't believe that the war can be stopped - then by all means bye-bye Israel, because the war will not end with Palestine, they'll end up fighting the whole Arab world. You cannot be constructive in that discussion simply because it has hit the wall.
Jews and Arabs have been going at it for almost a century, definitely longer than 60 years. Arabs never accepted Israel being there and considering that fighting has never really ceased they definitely cannot be dismissed as a "60 year old story which is irrelevant now". Unless Israeli accept w/e terms they still could, possibly take some blows and regardless of that work hard towards peace nothing will ever happen. The other choice that they have is starving Palestinians off, which is what they are doing now. Not the best idea.
On June 04 2010 13:37 Ciryandor wrote: As for the byebye Israel message you posted, that's doesn't help make this thread more productive, unless you can expound on how, if the international community decides to dissolve Israel for its three-score+ years of being there, would you resettle and restructure the people who will move in and out of the area. (5.5m+ Israelis moving out + 3-4m Palestinians from w/in Israel and surrounding countries moving back in.)
IMO, you're reasonable, but your recent posts haven't been as constructive as the ones from way earlier in the thread.
I gave up on infinitely arguing the same point over and over; when someone says "our enemies will never stop attacking us and there will be no peace" it implies that the problem doesn't lie within Israel. If he doesn't believe that the war can be stopped - then by all means bye-bye Israel, because the war will not end with Palestine, they'll end up fighting the whole Arab world. You cannot be constructive in that discussion simply because it has hit the wall.
Jews and Arabs have been going at it for almost a century, definitely longer than 60 years. Arabs never accepted Israel being there and considering that fighting has never really ceased they definitely cannot be dismissed as a "60 year old story which is irrelevant now". Unless Israeli accept w/e terms they still could, possibly take some blows and regardless of that work hard towards peace nothing will ever happen. The other choice that they have is starving Palestinians off, which is what they are doing now. Not the best idea.
Ah, that really clears the issue up. So it's more of the Israeli leadership having that paranoia complex being advocated by the Orthodox side of their coalition, who would collapse the government IF their whims were not followed. This backs them into a corner, and because they want to stay in power, they become more intransigent towards Palestine. With this view, hard-liners in Palestine say: "No we won't negotiate with such bellicose people." and stymie the whole reconciliation process. Couple that with their avowed policy of kicking out Israel no matter what, and it would end up as a impasse.
Of course, somebody could just throw back at you that the same "our enemies" statement also applies w/ the Palestinians. However, it backs up your point even more that the Arabs who could just tell the Palestinians to cut a deal because we're not helping you if you keep on being such asses would be antagonized by Israeli actions. What is unfortunate however, is that states like Syria would like nothing more than to stir the situation to a frenzy because it benefits them; i.e. if Israel were to give up territory and the like, they'd directly benefit, example being the Golan Heights. Maybe that's also part of the reason why they mistreat the Palestinian exiles living in their countries, so they can use them as pawns to further their national agenda of reclaiming land lost to Israel.
On June 04 2010 06:42 Mothxal wrote: Why would the German mainstream media be anti-Israel, given its history? (I'm curious)
If you check the posts here 95% of Israel supporters either jewish, german (jewish?), british or scandinavians (I think that 1 guy from Finland is jewish too). You can tell what kind of picture they get on their TVs.
IMO, you're reasonable, but your recent posts haven't been as constructive as the ones from way earlier in the thread.
His one-liners seem more like flamebaits than being reasonable to me.
And no I'm not Jewish. And the Finnish media is actually generally very condemning towards Israel.
If you check the posts here 95% of Israel supporters either jewish, german (jewish?), british or scandinavians (I think that 1 guy from Finland is jewish too). You can tell what kind of picture they get on their TVs.
I'm a Taiwanese citizen naturalized to the US for ten years living in Philadelphia. I speak English fluently without an accent.
(I'm of no religious affiliation)
I gave up on infinitely arguing the same point over and over; when someone says "our enemies will never stop attacking us and there will be no peace" it implies that the problem doesn't lie within Israel. If he doesn't believe that the war can be stopped - then by all means bye-bye Israel, because the war will not end with Palestine, they'll end up fighting the whole Arab world. You cannot be constructive in that discussion simply because it has hit the wall.
There are plenty of Israelis who are just as fundamentalist as Hamas and will not rest until every Palestinian has left or been removed from the occupied territories. The difference is these Israelis are too smart to say this outright so they can try to claim a moral superiority. Instead they continue to push for building settlements in the West Bank and provoking Palestinians and their supporters as much as possible. I've read reports of Palestinian farmers shot at by settlers as those they were animals when they tried to work on their farms which were close to settlements and IDF soldiers refusing to do anything about it. Or the American activist who was trying to practice passive resistance and was run over by a bulldozer. These fundamentalists are just as bad as Hamas and it is frustrating that the defenders of Israel refuse to see the other side of things..
On June 04 2010 17:57 tomatriedes wrote: There are plenty of Israelis who are just as fundamentalist as Hamas and will not rest until every Palestinian has left or been removed from the occupied territories. The difference is these Israelis are too smart to say this outright so they can try to claim a moral superiority. Instead they continue to push for building settlements in the West Bank and provoking Palestinians and their supporters as much as possible. I've read reports of Palestinian farmers shot at by settlers as those they were animals when they tried to work on their farms which were close to settlements and IDF soldiers refusing to do anything about it. Or the American activist who was trying to practice passive resistance and was run over by a bulldozer. These fundamentalists are just as bad as Hamas and it is frustrating that the defenders of Israel refuse to see the other side of things..
I know that the activist ran over by the bulldozer was discussed in the previous couple of pages.
On June 04 2010 06:42 Mothxal wrote: Why would the German mainstream media be anti-Israel, given its history? (I'm curious)
Its not that hard. As some people have already stated Germans are a bit different to other Countries with less Anti-Semitism in their history. There has never really been a real removal of important Nazi-people in government, law, military, bureaucracy w/e(Persil-Schein). So the situation in German heads never had the possibility to change fundamentally. It were those people who had huge influence on post-WW2 development in media and politics. Obviously they had to change their behaviour and what they words. Obviously the representing heads of the country had to be changed. But the attitude in Western Germany never really altered it just had to be hidden. So this Anti-Semitic reflex just stayed and got passed on to sons and daughters. Probably this happened hidden again, because it was plainly forbidden to critizice Israel, but it was given further. The "revolution" in 68 was, besides lot of other things, also directed against old Nazi-criminals still in charge in important posts and as u know this whole "revolution" failed, so why should the situation have changed. And now as time passes on the Germanz feel just more freely to give their inferiority complex towards WW2 winners and Israel room, resulting in mass media doing their good ol' Israel critic without considering all the given facts and using often some kind of unnecessary words if u want to stay neutral. Dunno how often I read "slaughtering" or similar things.
Im kinda sure lots of people are gonna disagree with me, but thats to be expected. I would even say that nowadays the younger generation gets less Anti-Semitic or "israel critic" coz the direct influence just fades with the slow extinction of Nazi-remains.
On June 04 2010 17:57 tomatriedes wrote: There are plenty of Israelis who are just as fundamentalist as Hamas and will not rest until every Palestinian has left or been removed from the occupied territories. The difference is these Israelis are too smart to say this outright so they can try to claim a moral superiority. Instead they continue to push for building settlements in the West Bank and provoking Palestinians and their supporters as much as possible. I've read reports of Palestinian farmers shot at by settlers as those they were animals when they tried to work on their farms which were close to settlements and IDF soldiers refusing to do anything about it. Or the American activist who was trying to practice passive resistance and was run over by a bulldozer. These fundamentalists are just as bad as Hamas and it is frustrating that the defenders of Israel refuse to see the other side of things..
Israelis say it out loud all the time it's just the media don't report it that way.
I got this from a friend, Ran, who studies at Ben Gurion University in Beer Sheva (south of Israel). It’s a demo organized by students SUPPORTING the flotilla slaughter. In local terms, these are not even really right wing students we’re talking about here, just the political centre of the Israeli society. Demos like these were held all over the country since yesterday (I saw several of them myself).
I talked to Ran earlier today, and he says the events in the BG University were scary though not surprising - the ambiance here, even on campuses, is becoming unbearable. It is important to mention that in principle all political activity on this campus is forbidden, and that leftist activists demonstrating outside of the campus during the war on Gaza last year were arrested. This demonstration was held with collaboration of the University authorities and contrary to these same authorities regulations. Ran asked to send it out - so that people would see how an Israeli campus looks like these days.
I’ll only add to that, for those of you who didn’t follow, that we held several demos yesterday all over the country, denouncing the slaughter and the siege and showing solidarity with the flotilla activists. Tomorrow another demo is planned in front of the prison holding the international detainees.
On June 04 2010 01:17 broz0rs wrote: I'm reserving judgment until the independent report comes out, but this morning the Israeli Prime Minister had a press conference and the contents of the speech was the typical "we are the victims, everybody hates us" banter. He defended the actions of his military and claimed that the ships could carry up to 200 missiles that will be used against his country. He also had an epic statement that the floatilla "was not the love boat, but it was the hate boat!!" It's hard to remain unbiased when you read stuff like this.
On June 04 2010 01:21 beetlejuice wrote: "We told the Indonesian doctor to take the soldier back. He took his patient back, and as he was going back, they shot him 5 times in the stomach,"
One of the dead was 19-year-old boy Furkan Doğan, a Turkish citizen with an american passport. State-run Anatolia news agency said he was hit by four bullets in the head and one in the chest.
What possible motivation could there be for this to happen? I really can't imagine any and that is why I find this so very hard to believe.
"We told the Indonesian doctor to take the soldier back. He took his patient back, and as he was going back, they shot him 5 times in the stomach,"[/b][/i]
One of the dead was 19-year-old boy Furkan Doğan, a Turkish citizen with an american passport. State-run Anatolia news agency said he was hit by four bullets in the head and one in the chest.
Squeegy I've been following your posts since the beggining. Haven't seen any more biased poster in this thread than you. You are trying to look like you are unbiased with your posts. But your when it comes to evidence supporting IDF, you support it. Then when it comes to evidence supporting activists you stand as "We can't know about it we are not sure".
Ok doofus, to let your unbelieving mind believe, the body of that child came to country yesterday. Forensic medicine examination proved that the body 4 shots in the head and 1 in the heart. More than 3 witnesses, witnessed the conduct.
Now its the main page news about the kid. You keep on believing sth else, but I congradulate you, doing your job in this thread very well. We both know what's your job is.
Grats to the activists who mostly achieved what they wanted (mostly because 10 dead probably weren't in their interest). Not only did they bring attention to the Gaza blockade, but the IDF fucked up so badly that nobody can really defend them. - Boarding a ship in international water (attacking the activists on Turkish soil) - Boarding the ships like total amateurs, losing their cool and killing people
Edit: If you're vehemently anti-Israel on this matter, you may want to first wrap your head in duct tape before reading this. Enlightenment sometimes hurts. :p
On June 04 2010 06:42 Mothxal wrote: Why would the German mainstream media be anti-Israel, given its history? (I'm curious)
If you check the posts here 95% of Israel supporters either jewish, german (jewish?), british or scandinavians (I think that 1 guy from Finland is jewish too). You can tell what kind of picture they get on their TVs.
IMO, you're reasonable, but your recent posts haven't been as constructive as the ones from way earlier in the thread.
His one-liners seem more like flamebaits than being reasonable to me.
And no I'm not Jewish. And the Finnish media is actually generally very condemning towards Israel.
It's amazing, probably the first discussion where I can literally pick any opponent and state that he is lying through his teeth:
This only shows what kind of reasoning people use in order to prove their point, same with the German guy on the previous page. That's why this debate is still going in circles, because after a point is refuted it's instantly brought up again.
EPT
![[image loading]](http://www.cnas.org/files/u16/aDbBc0.png)
