EPTHamas will never give up its violence until Israel is wiped off the planet. That's their goal. They don't care about their people. They don't want peace, they don't care about land anymore. There's nothing reasonable about them. Why do you keep thinking that the Israeli government is incapable of trying for peace but then believe that a group of terrorists is perfectly capable of it?
News: Israel Attacks Gazan Aid Flotilla - Page 47
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animus123
United States171 Posts
Hamas will never give up its violence until Israel is wiped off the planet. That's their goal. They don't care about their people. They don't want peace, they don't care about land anymore. There's nothing reasonable about them. Why do you keep thinking that the Israeli government is incapable of trying for peace but then believe that a group of terrorists is perfectly capable of it? | ||
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Kazius
Israel1456 Posts
On June 04 2010 04:22 Klaz wrote: The solution is simple. 1) Israel accepts UN stewardship and withdraws to the agreed 1967 borders. Giving back illegally appropriated land. 2) UN troops take control of Palestine and disarm Hamas. They remain there to ensure peace until there is stability. Don't trust UN troops, use NATO, fuck use Israeli troops if you want, but overseen by international observers so that there is no more abuse. 3) They hold elections in Palestine and set up a legitimate government and police force. I'm pretty confident that if Israel were to accept UN stewardship and lift it's blockades etc. Hamas would agree to be policed by the UN and give up violence. I'll return to the Hezbollah example. The UN stewardship of southern Lebanon lasted under 24 hours after the UN troops didn't even try to keep control of the military outposts. With the Israeli part of Jerusalem, the capital city of Israel, within sniper range, missile range and mortar range of Palestinian territories, do you really expect Israel to trust the UN who has utterly failed to do anything they promised to do in previous situations when Israel did exactly what it asked? I'm not even talking about disarming the Hamas, I'm talking about them just being there. Them disarming the Hamas is a joke. The IDF can't disarm Hamas because they offer heavily entrenched resistance within population centers and massive civilian casualties are not something Israel can agree with, as it would probably require artillery shelling, or sending soldiers into heavily fortified kill zones. Setting up elections, a legitimate government and a police force was done during Rabin's time as prime minister, and did not stop but rather increased the rate of suicide bombings in Israel, up to the crescendo of violence when the Palestinian police forces got orders to open fire on Israeli soldiers in concert with outbreaks of violent protests wherever there was any Israeli presence (during that time, an offer of returning to the '67 borders and the complete independence of the Palestinian territories for peace was offered by Israel). This caused the current decade's bloodshed, and now going through with that exact same process again without much stronger assurances for Israeli safety will simply will not happen. The problem is... I don't believe that the Israeli Government WANT peace. I think they have gotten to used to being able to do whatever they want with impunity. Look at the maps of Israel and Palestine from 1967 to today. Palestine just keeps shrinking and shrinking and shrinking and its people more impoverished and more impoverished. Israel has no need for compromise. They can have their cake (the land) and with the "threat of constant violence" keep taking more and pushing the palestinians out. I believe they intend to continue this until Palestine no longer exists. You are judging according to politicians posturing. If you'd do that, then Arafat was about to launch an all-out attack to eradicate the state of Israel during the entire peace talks of the 90s, and Hamas want to exterminate all the Jews. Both sides cannot appear to back off in front of the other side because that will end up changing the political balance of power within the regions, considering that there is no trust to create a full-fledged peace summit with sweeping results, this balance is being maintained by both sides as the closest thing to a cease-fire we can have (which is extremely depressing, come to think of it). Unfortunately, in a situation so highly conflicted, the media requires strong and clear cut statements if they do not wanted to be twisted into signs of surrender to pressure from the other side. This is the Middle East, not Europe, and the rhetoric of diplomacy here is far different than in the rest of the world. As for Hamas being in power. I think the Palestinian people just got tired of being shat on for 50 years and Hamas promised to fight for them and protect them. It was a desperate choice of a desperate people. I firmly believe that Israel have the power to fix this. I also believe that they do not have the will to face the necessary compromise, because nothing other than a withdrawl to 1967 borders will really satisfy the sense of injustice and outrage that palestinian's feel. And that's entirely understandable. With all due respect, pride has nothing to do with the lack of resolution here. The lack of resolution is due to the history of the conflict, international and local political and economic forces, and of course other things like geographic and resource concerns; all things I've barely scratched the surface of in previous posts. Anyways, it's been a long day, and I'm off. I hope I've given you a different perspective on what is happening here, and perhaps some food for thought. | ||
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condoriano
United States826 Posts
On June 04 2010 04:56 animus123 wrote: UN stewardship? Disarm Hamas? Are we thinking of the same UN here? What makes you think that the UN will be able to enforce anything? Hamas will never give up its violence until Israel is wiped off the planet. That's their goal. They don't care about their people. They don't want peace, they don't care about land anymore. There's nothing reasonable about them. Why do you keep thinking that the Israeli government is incapable of trying for peace but then believe that a group of terrorists is perfectly capable of it? Then bye bye Israel.  | ||
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EtherealDeath
United States8366 Posts
On June 04 2010 03:42 Klaz wrote: The blockade punishes the civilian population of Gaza and this is illegal under the Geneva convention. Israel CANNOT punish Palestinian civilians for the actions of Hamas. That's actually not true in that current maritime law establishes that you can blockade someone you are at war with despite civilian suffering so far as the blockade is "effective" and the civilian suffering is not egregiously disproportionate to the military hampering it puts on the enemy. Of course the definition of disproportionate is not provided, so it is somewhat subjective, but it is mentioned there are clauses which mention that a blockade is unlawful if the civilian population is starving to death because of it. As we have not had mass starving deaths in Gaza nor are they anticipated, it could be argued that if Israel recognized Hamas as the governing body of Gaza and declared war on them in such a was as to require the application of the Geneva conventions, then they could keep the naval blockade going indefinitely as they wish, and boarding in international waters would also be legal so far as a need to do so is met in a particular situation. | ||
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Fenrax
United States5018 Posts
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Grumbels
Netherlands7032 Posts
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Grumbels
Netherlands7032 Posts
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condoriano
United States826 Posts
On June 04 2010 06:42 Mothxal wrote: Why would the German mainstream media be anti-Israel, given its history? (I'm curious) If you check the posts here 95% of Israel supporters either jewish, german (jewish?), british or scandinavians (I think that 1 guy from Finland is jewish too). You can tell what kind of picture they get on their TVs. | ||
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.Wilsh.
United States133 Posts
1) If it was a pure humanitarian voyage why would they have body armor, gas masks and night vision goggles. 2) Israel has a separate port, which aid to Gaza can be sent, where it is then checked out and sent to Gaza. 3) Israel wasn't the only one blockading Gaza, Egypt was doing it too. Edit: Spelling | ||
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Fenrax
United States5018 Posts
On June 04 2010 06:48 condoriano wrote: If you check the posts here 95% of Israel supporters either jewish, german (jewish?), british or scandinavians (I think that 1 guy from Finland is jewish too). You can tell what kind of picture they get on their TVs. No, I am not jewish. And I certainly do not get my opinion on TV. TV only shows what sells, and that is Israel Bashing. That's no real Anti-Semitism, these times are over in Germany, but Israel is not popular here anymore. Israel-Bashing is becoming the cool thing to do, especially among the intellectual elites in most western countries. When people read an article about incidents in Israel they tend to blame Israel, no matter whose fault it truly was. In fact I have to Google minor or even foreign newspapers to find any newspaper that dares to criticize the "good" Muslim countries. And while it is true that the Israelis are hardliners one must not forget that the Palestines and other Muslim countries are also absolute hardliners. So instead of blaming one side from the beginning you should make your opinion on each case seperately. If you always read the same sources, you will always find the same side guilty and get prejudiced. And the facts that most western medias speak about are for example these: - the "aid flotilla" is organized by an organization that actively and openly supports terrorism - many of the victims were radical Islamists, 3 of them even said before the mission that they would become Martyrs | ||
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Masamune
Canada3401 Posts
On June 04 2010 06:48 condoriano wrote: If you check the posts here 95% of Israel supporters either jewish, german (jewish?), british or scandinavians (I think that 1 guy from Finland is jewish too). You can tell what kind of picture they get on their TVs. I'd imagine the Europeans defending Israel blindlessly are just biased against Muslims because of the flood of immigration in those areas and other bad first hand experiences with them. | ||
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condoriano
United States826 Posts
On June 04 2010 07:26 Fenrax wrote: No, I am not jewish. And I certainly do not get my opinion on TV. TV only shows what sells, and that is Israel Bashing. That's no real Anti-Semitism, these times are over in Germany, but Israel is not popular here anymore. Israel-Bashing is becoming the cool thing to do, especially among the intellectual elites in most western countries. When people read an article about incidents in Israel they tend to blame Israel, no matter whose fault it truly was. In fact I have to Google minor or even foreign newspapers to find any newspaper that dares to criticize the "good" Muslim countries. And while it is true that the Israelis are hardliners one must not forget that the Palestines and other Muslim countries are also absolute hardliners. So instead of blaming one side from the beginning you should make your opinion on each case seperately. If you always read the same sources, you will always find the same side guilty and get prejudiced. And the facts that most western medias speak about are for example these: - the "aid flotilla" is organized by an organization that actively and openly supports terrorism - many of the victims were radical Islamists, 3 of them even said before the mission that they would become Martyrs I don't trust this. Germans are paranoid about Jews and Israel and everything surrounding it to the extent where they just can't accuse them. You were brought up not to interfere. Everything I know about the Germans contradicts what you are stating here. I can understand if you said there were many groups and media in Germany that spoke out against Israel after recent developments, but to suggest that popular opinion (especially young people) is against Israel is a flat out lie. The "real Anti-Semitism times" (as you called them) were over long ago, it turned around and became something else, something that made Germans spineless. The feeling of guilt that is being fed to everyone from childhood years is not something you can simply dismiss. I understand there was a lot of criticism coming from media sources on this particular matter but what we generally see is people like you (let's say somewhat educated people) are going out of their way to find evidence that the reports were not true. That's just my take on it. | ||
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condoriano
United States826 Posts
On June 04 2010 07:30 Masamune wrote: I'd imagine the Europeans defending Israel blindlessly are just biased against Muslims because of the flood of immigration in those areas and other bad first hand experiences with them. I'm sure this is true too, many things factor in. Israel could truly become "evil" but it will take a lot more than recent incidents. | ||
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Zexion
Sweden971 Posts
 Oh, and a good historical parallell to this incident: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_Blockade | ||
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condoriano
United States826 Posts
On June 04 2010 08:06 Zexion wrote: Sorry if this already has been posted, but I really couldn't be arsed looking through all replies here. At least not right now, I'm tired http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNQSV3BBtZ4 Oh, and a good historical parallell to this incident: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_Blockade Fucking powerful speech. I respect this man. Thanks for this video. | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7032 Posts
Our conservative political parties (that control government at the moment) reflexively support Israel in anything. For example our minister of foreign policy defended Israel's right to search the aid ships for weapons even if they were in international waters and urged everyone to not condemn or judge anyone until the facts were clear. (seems wise, but it's also an obvious attempt to play for time). Dutch media is decent on reporting facts, but the editorial slant especially in the popular television shows is biased, I think. During the war on Gaza they were filled with mentions of Israel's right to defend itself, the news programs had long specials about how the Israeli population lived in fear and had bunkers to protect themselves against the attacks. Clear during all of this was the notion that Israel is part of our 'group', (as an aside, one of our political parties' leader is quite vocal about a so-called "Jewish-Christian tradition" of our nation and there was an incident when an earlier minister of integration mentioned that she could in the future possibly see a "Jewish-Christian-Muslim tradition"). Hamas and Palestinians are never quite sympathetic, especially in media more closely reflecting popular opinion. There's been a fairly insulting, in my opinion, effort to try to understand suicide bombers in the media. That was a sort-of topic to occupy ourselves with and usually had a lot of unspoken "what's wrong with that culture??" baggage associated with it. I had myself never heard of the atrocities happening in Gaza until I read some US-based blogs about this issue, actually, since the Dutch media was trying so hard to be "balanced" (at least in its popular reporting) that these sort of things are glossed over a bit. | ||
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Kindred
Canada396 Posts
Israel to reject UN call for ship raid probe im shocked! /end sarcasm | ||
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clusen
Germany8702 Posts
On June 04 2010 08:02 condoriano wrote: I don't trust this. Germans are paranoid about Jews and Israel and everything surrounding it to the extent where they just can't accuse them. You were brought up not to interfere. Everything I know about the Germans contradicts what you are stating here. I can understand if you said there were many groups and media in Germany that spoke out against Israel after recent developments, but to suggest that popular opinion (especially young people) is against Israel is a flat out lie. The "real Anti-Semitism times" (as you called them) were over long ago, it turned around and became something else, something that made Germans spineless. The feeling of guilt that is being fed to everyone from childhood years is not something you can simply dismiss. I understand there was a lot of criticism coming from media sources on this particular matter but what we generally see is people like you (let's say somewhat educated people) are going out of their way to find evidence that the reports were not true. That's just my take on it. Your "knowledge" as you call it is pretty outdated. | ||
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condoriano
United States826 Posts
I know, it hurts. | ||
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clusen
Germany8702 Posts
That you insult me as being paranoid? No, not really :p If you would elaborate a little bit more on that issue we could discuss it, but well, it's OT anyway. ninjaquotes are unfair btw. | ||
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