On June 04 2010 01:08 Ghostcom wrote: Uh no - perhaps in Ireland, but not in Denmark. Al-Jazeera is in no way known for it's objectivity. Stop trying to pass your own beliefs as facts.
Fair enough. Before this turns into a silly argument. Would you care to link me to an article that shows their lack of credibility, or are you just trying to pass off your own belief as fact?
I'm sure there are people in every country who trust or distrust Al Jazeera. That on its own, isn't really enough I'm afraid.
Turkish charity chief tells of carnage, chaos on ship "We told our friends on board: "We will die, become martyrs, but never let us be shown... as the ones who used guns," Bülent Yıldırım said on Thursday. The head of a Turkish charity that organised the aid flotilla attacked by Israeli forces said activists had rushed some of the soldiers and snatched their weapons, but had thrown them overboard without using them.
Bülent Yıldırım, chairman of the Foundation for Human Rights and Freedoms and Humanitarian Relief (IHH), denied Israeli accounts of events on board the Mavi Maramara after Israeli commandos stormed the ship on Monday in an operation that resulted in at least nine people being killed.
"We were handed 9 dead bodies, but we have a longer list of missing people," Yıldırım said at İstanbul airport after returning from Israel, where he said he had been kept in custody and questioned for three days.
Yıldırım, who was on board the vessel, said some of the activists had grabbed guns off 10 soldiers in self-defence.
"Yes, we took their guns. It would be self defence even if we fired their guns," Yıldırım said, adding that people shouted to them not to use the weapons.
"We told our friends on board: "We will die, become martyrs, but never let us be shown... as the ones who used guns," Yıldırım said on Thursday.
"By this decision, our friends accepted death, and we threw all the guns we took from them into the sea."
Israel said its troops fired in self-defence during an operation to seize a flotilla of ships intended to break a blockade it has imposed on the Gaza strip. Activists had attacked soldiers with batons, knives and two pistols seized from marines.
It said two of those killed had used the seized pistols to wound two commandos.
Yıldırım said the Israeli commandos fired rubber bullets from close range before switching to live ammunition, after some activists on board had attacked them with chairs and bats.
"The Israelis published videos of the bats used on the ship, but they damaged their "strong Israeli army" image, as the world saw that a bunch of volunteers can neutralize them," Yıldırım said.
Describing the dead as matyrs, Yıldırım said his charity would continue to organise aid convoys until Israel was forced to end the blockade of 1.5 million Palestinians in Gaza.
Yıldırım said an Indonesian doctor was shot in the stomach as he helped a wounded Israeli soldier.
CLASH ON DECK
"As the clash was going on upstairs on the deck, we were taking care of Israelis downstairs, as we gave them water, we were informed that our friends died there," Yıldırım said.
"We told the Indonesian doctor to take the soldier back. He took his patient back, and as he was going back, they shot him 5 times in the stomach," he said.
He also described how a photographer was shot in the forehead from a distance of a metre, though it was unclear whether he witnessed it personally.
Another activist was shot as he was surrendering, he said.
"I took off my shirt and waved it, as a white flag. We thought they would stop after seeing the white flag, but they continued killing people," Yıldırım said.
"A friend of ours saw two dead bodies in a toilet," he added.
One of the dead was 19-year-old boy Furkan Doğan, a Turkish citizen with an american passport. State-run Anatolia news agency said he was hit by four bullets in the head and one in the chest.
Anatolia reported that the body of a national taekwando athlete, Çetin Topçuoğlu, had also been identified.
Yıldırım's Israeli interrogators told him that the soldiers were given permission to use live ammunition only 35 minutes into the operation. The charity chief said some activists had already been wounded by casing from the shock blast and gas bombs used in the initial assault.
He said soldiers had herded activists on deck and a helicopter had sprayed them with water to subdue them.
So now they admit to taking weapons from the soldiers. What on earth did were they expecting to happen? Also apparently the metal objects the activists used to fight the soldiers were pipes on the ship that were cut using angle grinders. Was there any other reason to cut them that to prepare for a fight?
By the way, I am outright rejecting the claim that Israel opened fire at the activists before landing. They may have fired warning shots, but that is not shooting at the activists.
I'm reserving judgment until the independent report comes out, but this morning the Israeli Prime Minister had a press conference and the contents of the speech was the typical "we are the victims, everybody hates us" banter. He defended the actions of his military and claimed that the ships could carry up to 200 missiles that will be used against his country. He also had an epic statement that the floatilla "was not the love boat, but it was the hate boat!!" It's hard to remain unbiased when you read stuff like this.
"We told the Indonesian doctor to take the soldier back. He took his patient back, and as he was going back, they shot him 5 times in the stomach,"
One of the dead was 19-year-old boy Furkan Doğan, a Turkish citizen with an american passport. State-run Anatolia news agency said he was hit by four bullets in the head and one in the chest.
On June 04 2010 01:05 Squeegy wrote: You were the one who pointed out Israel's own words as proof of them not being at war. I showed evidence of the contrary. But yes, I am well aware that a lot of politics talk is just rhetorics.
Nope you haven't. Israel aren't in an official state of war. Because they want to claim the benefits of this. They have used this in their defence of their treatment of Hamas prisoners. Political rhetoric is just that. You are confusing rhetoric with legal claims. There is a difference.
This is ultimately a legal issue that I believe is so complex that it takes an expert to discuss it. I'm not one, and I'm pretty sure you're not either. I mean, you mentioned earlier that Hamas' rocket strikes are legal if Israel is officially at war with Hamas. That is false. But overall you do have a point. And that is something that I really want to see the experts comment on.
The legality is well established I'm afraid, though you will always find some expert who will say anything you want to. Hell I'm sure Robert Mugabe can present plenty of legal experts to justify his actions. Though the second part is true, indiscriminate rocket fire by Hamas would be a war crime, but not an act of terrorism(If Israel recognized their legitimacy). Should have made that distinction more clear.
If I take a knife with me, do you think the police officers will think that I am unarmed? They clearly were not unarmed.
How many passengers were on that ship? 500-600? Let's say 4 people on average live in a house. How about we go to 100 houses and empty out the kitchen drawers. How many knives will you find?
I disagree. Maybe you wish to back your claim with a link or ten? Also, it isn't that you needed to be more clear here. It's rather you should've said something entirely different than what you did. You actually said the rocket attacks would be legal acts of war. That is not an issue of making an unclear distinction, that is an issue of being outright wrong.
It doesn't matter if the knives were kitchen knives. It matters that they used them to fight. That is what makes them armed.
Turkish charity chief tells of carnage, chaos on ship "We told our friends on board: "We will die, become martyrs, but never let us be shown... as the ones who used guns," Bülent Yıldırım said on Thursday. The head of a Turkish charity that organised the aid flotilla attacked by Israeli forces said activists had rushed some of the soldiers and snatched their weapons, but had thrown them overboard without using them.
Bülent Yıldırım, chairman of the Foundation for Human Rights and Freedoms and Humanitarian Relief (IHH), denied Israeli accounts of events on board the Mavi Maramara after Israeli commandos stormed the ship on Monday in an operation that resulted in at least nine people being killed.
"We were handed 9 dead bodies, but we have a longer list of missing people," Yıldırım said at İstanbul airport after returning from Israel, where he said he had been kept in custody and questioned for three days.
Yıldırım, who was on board the vessel, said some of the activists had grabbed guns off 10 soldiers in self-defence.
"Yes, we took their guns. It would be self defence even if we fired their guns," Yıldırım said, adding that people shouted to them not to use the weapons.
"We told our friends on board: "We will die, become martyrs, but never let us be shown... as the ones who used guns," Yıldırım said on Thursday.
"By this decision, our friends accepted death, and we threw all the guns we took from them into the sea."
Israel said its troops fired in self-defence during an operation to seize a flotilla of ships intended to break a blockade it has imposed on the Gaza strip. Activists had attacked soldiers with batons, knives and two pistols seized from marines.
It said two of those killed had used the seized pistols to wound two commandos.
Yıldırım said the Israeli commandos fired rubber bullets from close range before switching to live ammunition, after some activists on board had attacked them with chairs and bats.
"The Israelis published videos of the bats used on the ship, but they damaged their "strong Israeli army" image, as the world saw that a bunch of volunteers can neutralize them," Yıldırım said.
Describing the dead as matyrs, Yıldırım said his charity would continue to organise aid convoys until Israel was forced to end the blockade of 1.5 million Palestinians in Gaza.
Yıldırım said an Indonesian doctor was shot in the stomach as he helped a wounded Israeli soldier.
CLASH ON DECK
"As the clash was going on upstairs on the deck, we were taking care of Israelis downstairs, as we gave them water, we were informed that our friends died there," Yıldırım said.
"We told the Indonesian doctor to take the soldier back. He took his patient back, and as he was going back, they shot him 5 times in the stomach," he said.
He also described how a photographer was shot in the forehead from a distance of a metre, though it was unclear whether he witnessed it personally.
Another activist was shot as he was surrendering, he said.
"I took off my shirt and waved it, as a white flag. We thought they would stop after seeing the white flag, but they continued killing people," Yıldırım said.
"A friend of ours saw two dead bodies in a toilet," he added.
One of the dead was 19-year-old boy Furkan Doğan, a Turkish citizen with an american passport. State-run Anatolia news agency said he was hit by four bullets in the head and one in the chest.
Anatolia reported that the body of a national taekwando athlete, Çetin Topçuoğlu, had also been identified.
Yıldırım's Israeli interrogators told him that the soldiers were given permission to use live ammunition only 35 minutes into the operation. The charity chief said some activists had already been wounded by casing from the shock blast and gas bombs used in the initial assault.
He said soldiers had herded activists on deck and a helicopter had sprayed them with water to subdue them.
So now they admit to taking weapons from the soldiers. What on earth did were they expecting to happen? Also apparently the metal objects the activists used to fight the soldiers were pipes on the ship that were cut using angle grinders. Was there any other reason to cut them that to prepare for a fight?
By the way, I am outright rejecting the claim that Israel opened fire at the activists before landing. They may have fired warning shots, but that is not shooting at the activists.
Honestly I wouldn't even fire warning shots at civiilians, as they may be untrained and not familiar with the fact that it is not a serious shot. They might miss the warning part, and instead think that real shit is going down, which seems to be exactly what happened. Radioing them and specifically saying that warning, not serious, shots will be fired if they do not comply would be better. Even better would be to delay the boarding until the ship reaches Israeli waters. After all, once you board, you're almost certain to take control, unless a group of civilians is better than your navy.
On June 04 2010 01:17 broz0rs wrote: I'm reserving judgment until the independent report comes out, but this morning the Israeli Prime Minister had a press conference and the contents of the speech was the typical "we are the victims, everybody hates us" banter. He defended the actions of his military and claimed that the ships could carry up to 200 missiles that will be used against his country. He also had an epic statement that the floatilla "was not the love boat, but it was the hate boat!!" It's hard to remain unbiased when you read stuff like this.
I know. Israel's PR department needs to be sacked. Anyway, it is also hard to remain unbiased when you read stuff like this:
On June 04 2010 01:21 beetlejuice wrote: "We told the Indonesian doctor to take the soldier back. He took his patient back, and as he was going back, they shot him 5 times in the stomach,"
One of the dead was 19-year-old boy Furkan Doğan, a Turkish citizen with an american passport. State-run Anatolia news agency said he was hit by four bullets in the head and one in the chest.
What possible motivation could there be for this to happen? I really can't imagine any and that is why I find this so very hard to believe.
Israel earlier told the ambassadors of Cyprus, Turkey, Greece, and Ireland -- the countries from which the ships set sail -- that it "issued warrants that prohibit the entrance of the vessels to Gaza" and that the flotilla would be breaking international law.
Israel made it clear it intends to halt the vessels and detain the hundreds of people aboard in the port of Ashdod before deporting them.
Okay that's a fair point, I hadn't seen that quote before. Still I don't think anyone on board the ship thought that they would get attacked in the middle of the night, in interntational waters. They were waiting for daylight before entering Gaza waters (which Israel seems to control), and that suggests that whatever action they expected Israel to take, they expected it to happen there. As I said, I don't think they expected a commando assault in the middle of the night.
Here's the thing though, and this is pure speculation on my part. This is how I think it actually went down.
I think Israel had a choice. They could have waited for daylight, for the ships to enter Gaza waters (where I think they have legal jurisdiction). Then they would have been able to surround them with a shit load of police and army and then take over the ships.
I think the Israeli government wanted to avoid that. Because during day time all the cameras would be running and when they started beating people up who were only resisting peacefully it would look really bad on the world's cameras and cause a PR disaster. Now the Israeli's have gotten used to getting their way and getting away with it, because the US vetos any UN sanctions against them.
So they thought they would go with their usual shock and awe tactics, surprise the flotilla in the middle of the night with helicopters and speed boats and flash bangs, and subdue the passengers before the cameras had a chance to go on or anyone knew what the hell was happening. Then take them to Ashdod and deport them.
But they fucked it up. The lead ship had 600 passngers and was quite big. The nature and timing of the attack led SOME of the activists to believe that they we're under attack and begin to arm themselves with whatever they could find.
The Israeli's try to land their helicopters and the activists stand under them to block them, meanwhile Israel soldiers are attacking with plastic bullets, tear gas, sound grenades etc. Then some idiot IDF soldier fucks up and either uses live ammo by mistake, or misuses the plastic bullet and one of the protester drops to the floor with a hole in his head.
Now the protesters are CONVINCED the Israelis are going to kill them and they're determined to not let the commandos board.
The rest is history.
That in my opinion is the greatest tragedy. The reason this all got so fucked up was because, ironically, the Israelis wanted to avoid the bad PR of a daylight take over.
Look at it another way....
It's 3 am, international waters, you're probably a bit edgy anyway. Then all of a sudden you hear helicopters and speed boats. Loud bangs going off everywhere. You know the IDF have a reputation of killing civilians, aid workers and journalists, you don't trust them at all. Then you see someone get killed (accidentally or otherwise). What the fuck do you think people would do in this situation?
On June 04 2010 01:30 Squeegy wrote: What possible motivation could there be for this to happen? I really can't imagine any and that is why I find this so very hard to believe.
Similar report from the Hurriyet Daily (top English-Turkish paper.)
Eyewitness accounts
Two Swedes aboard the aid flotilla intercepted by Israeli forces this week said they had witnessed “premeditated murder.”
“We were witnesses to premeditated murders,” historian Mattias Gardell told Swedish public radio Thursday upon arrival in Istanbul.
“This was a military attack on a humanitarian aid operation far out in international waters,” said Gardell, a Swedish activist who was on the Mavi Marmara along with his wife, fellow historian Edda Manga, during the attack. “It was a very surprising and aggressive overreaction by Israel.”
Kuwait citizen Ali Buhamd said he saw a wounded Turkish citizen getting shot in the head. “The soldiers also left another Turk to bleed to death despite [his] calls for help,” he added.
Shane Dillon from Ireland, from the crew of the ship Challenger 1, said he witnessed some volunteers being beaten up and a Belgian woman’s nose being broken.
Of five Australians on the Gaza flotilla, two – journalists Paul McGeough and Kate Geraghty, who was injured by a stun gun during the Israeli raid – have returned to Turkey, daily The Australian reported on its website Thursday. Three others – Ahmed Luqman, who was shot in the leg, his wife, Jerry Campbell, and his sister Maryam Luqman – are reportedly still in Israel.
Turkish charity chief tells of carnage, chaos on ship "We told our friends on board: "We will die, become martyrs, but never let us be shown... as the ones who used guns," Bülent Yıldırım said on Thursday. The head of a Turkish charity that organised the aid flotilla attacked by Israeli forces said activists had rushed some of the soldiers and snatched their weapons, but had thrown them overboard without using them.
Bülent Yıldırım, chairman of the Foundation for Human Rights and Freedoms and Humanitarian Relief (IHH), denied Israeli accounts of events on board the Mavi Maramara after Israeli commandos stormed the ship on Monday in an operation that resulted in at least nine people being killed.
"We were handed 9 dead bodies, but we have a longer list of missing people," Yıldırım said at İstanbul airport after returning from Israel, where he said he had been kept in custody and questioned for three days.
Yıldırım, who was on board the vessel, said some of the activists had grabbed guns off 10 soldiers in self-defence.
"Yes, we took their guns. It would be self defence even if we fired their guns," Yıldırım said, adding that people shouted to them not to use the weapons.
"We told our friends on board: "We will die, become martyrs, but never let us be shown... as the ones who used guns," Yıldırım said on Thursday.
"By this decision, our friends accepted death, and we threw all the guns we took from them into the sea."
Israel said its troops fired in self-defence during an operation to seize a flotilla of ships intended to break a blockade it has imposed on the Gaza strip. Activists had attacked soldiers with batons, knives and two pistols seized from marines.
It said two of those killed had used the seized pistols to wound two commandos.
Yıldırım said the Israeli commandos fired rubber bullets from close range before switching to live ammunition, after some activists on board had attacked them with chairs and bats.
"The Israelis published videos of the bats used on the ship, but they damaged their "strong Israeli army" image, as the world saw that a bunch of volunteers can neutralize them," Yıldırım said.
Describing the dead as matyrs, Yıldırım said his charity would continue to organise aid convoys until Israel was forced to end the blockade of 1.5 million Palestinians in Gaza.
Yıldırım said an Indonesian doctor was shot in the stomach as he helped a wounded Israeli soldier.
CLASH ON DECK
"As the clash was going on upstairs on the deck, we were taking care of Israelis downstairs, as we gave them water, we were informed that our friends died there," Yıldırım said.
"We told the Indonesian doctor to take the soldier back. He took his patient back, and as he was going back, they shot him 5 times in the stomach," he said.
He also described how a photographer was shot in the forehead from a distance of a metre, though it was unclear whether he witnessed it personally.
Another activist was shot as he was surrendering, he said.
"I took off my shirt and waved it, as a white flag. We thought they would stop after seeing the white flag, but they continued killing people," Yıldırım said.
"A friend of ours saw two dead bodies in a toilet," he added.
One of the dead was 19-year-old boy Furkan Doğan, a Turkish citizen with an american passport. State-run Anatolia news agency said he was hit by four bullets in the head and one in the chest.
Anatolia reported that the body of a national taekwando athlete, Çetin Topçuoğlu, had also been identified.
Yıldırım's Israeli interrogators told him that the soldiers were given permission to use live ammunition only 35 minutes into the operation. The charity chief said some activists had already been wounded by casing from the shock blast and gas bombs used in the initial assault.
He said soldiers had herded activists on deck and a helicopter had sprayed them with water to subdue them.
So now they admit to taking weapons from the soldiers. What on earth did were they expecting to happen? Also apparently the metal objects the activists used to fight the soldiers were pipes on the ship that were cut using angle grinders. Was there any other reason to cut them that to prepare for a fight?
By the way, I am outright rejecting the claim that Israel opened fire at the activists before landing. They may have fired warning shots, but that is not shooting at the activists.
Honestly I wouldn't even fire warning shots at civiilians, as they may be untrained and not familiar with the fact that it is not a serious shot. They might miss the warning part, and instead think that real shit is going down, which seems to be exactly what happened. Radioing them and specifically saying that warning, not serious, shots will be fired if they do not comply would be better. Even better would be to delay the boarding until the ship reaches Israeli waters. After all, once you board, you're almost certain to take control, unless a group of civilians is better than your navy.
Yes, Israel fucked up. There's no doubt about that. Had they waited for the Israeli waters, I believe the coverage would look very different. But warning shots on the sea is a rather common practise. Or at least that's how I understood it from the military guys (if someone knows better, feel free to correct me). I don't really see anything wrong with them.
On June 04 2010 01:17 broz0rs wrote: I'm reserving judgment until the independent report comes out, but this morning the Israeli Prime Minister had a press conference and the contents of the speech was the typical "we are the victims, everybody hates us" banter. He defended the actions of his military and claimed that the ships could carry up to 200 missiles that will be used against his country. He also had an epic statement that the floatilla "was not the love boat, but it was the hate boat!!" It's hard to remain unbiased when you read stuff like this.
On June 04 2010 01:21 beetlejuice wrote: "We told the Indonesian doctor to take the soldier back. He took his patient back, and as he was going back, they shot him 5 times in the stomach,"
One of the dead was 19-year-old boy Furkan Doğan, a Turkish citizen with an american passport. State-run Anatolia news agency said he was hit by four bullets in the head and one in the chest.
What possible motivation could there be for this to happen? I really can't imagine any and that is why I find this so very hard to believe.
Maybe the soldiers boarding were new to this type of thing? Got scared by seeming mass swarm of people, so somewhat uncontrolled firing? There's a lot of way things like this could happen. Maybe the doctor was not well marked as a doctor - could have been in plainclothes and the soldiers did not have enough time to devote on him to parse the fact that he was a doctor and not trying to kill their fellow soldier who was already wounded. Maybe Dogan was in a similar situation somehow, and a group of the soldiers all aimed at him and shot to stop him, because somehow he was a high priority target due to the immediate tactical situation.
There are so many ways that those two events could have played out that I find it strange you would immediately resort to disbelief of the testimony of the people on board the ship. Their testimony may be incomplete in that it leaves out relevant situational information, but it's doesn't take a leap of faith to believe those 2 facts alone.
So now they admit to taking weapons from the soldiers. What on earth did were they expecting to happen? Also apparently the metal objects the activists used to fight the soldiers were pipes on the ship that were cut using angle grinders. Was there any other reason to cut them that to prepare for a fight?
By the way, I am outright rejecting the claim that Israel opened fire at the activists before landing. They may have fired warning shots, but that is not shooting at the activists.
I've no doubt they tried to take weapons from the soldiers. Makes sense since they thought the soldiers were trying to kill them.
Here's the kicker. Israel claimed that they only went down with paintball guns and only used live ammo after their soldiers we're shot at.
How did they shoot the soldiers if the soldiers only went down with paintball guns?
Also it doesn't matter if they hit the activists intentionally or unintentionally before landing. You start shooting at a crowd of people and someone get's hit, people are going to react.
Turkish charity chief tells of carnage, chaos on ship "We told our friends on board: "We will die, become martyrs, but never let us be shown... as the ones who used guns," Bülent Yıldırım said on Thursday. The head of a Turkish charity that organised the aid flotilla attacked by Israeli forces said activists had rushed some of the soldiers and snatched their weapons, but had thrown them overboard without using them.
Bülent Yıldırım, chairman of the Foundation for Human Rights and Freedoms and Humanitarian Relief (IHH), denied Israeli accounts of events on board the Mavi Maramara after Israeli commandos stormed the ship on Monday in an operation that resulted in at least nine people being killed.
"We were handed 9 dead bodies, but we have a longer list of missing people," Yıldırım said at İstanbul airport after returning from Israel, where he said he had been kept in custody and questioned for three days.
Yıldırım, who was on board the vessel, said some of the activists had grabbed guns off 10 soldiers in self-defence.
"Yes, we took their guns. It would be self defence even if we fired their guns," Yıldırım said, adding that people shouted to them not to use the weapons.
"We told our friends on board: "We will die, become martyrs, but never let us be shown... as the ones who used guns," Yıldırım said on Thursday.
"By this decision, our friends accepted death, and we threw all the guns we took from them into the sea."
Israel said its troops fired in self-defence during an operation to seize a flotilla of ships intended to break a blockade it has imposed on the Gaza strip. Activists had attacked soldiers with batons, knives and two pistols seized from marines.
It said two of those killed had used the seized pistols to wound two commandos.
Yıldırım said the Israeli commandos fired rubber bullets from close range before switching to live ammunition, after some activists on board had attacked them with chairs and bats.
"The Israelis published videos of the bats used on the ship, but they damaged their "strong Israeli army" image, as the world saw that a bunch of volunteers can neutralize them," Yıldırım said.
Describing the dead as matyrs, Yıldırım said his charity would continue to organise aid convoys until Israel was forced to end the blockade of 1.5 million Palestinians in Gaza.
Yıldırım said an Indonesian doctor was shot in the stomach as he helped a wounded Israeli soldier.
CLASH ON DECK
"As the clash was going on upstairs on the deck, we were taking care of Israelis downstairs, as we gave them water, we were informed that our friends died there," Yıldırım said.
"We told the Indonesian doctor to take the soldier back. He took his patient back, and as he was going back, they shot him 5 times in the stomach," he said.
He also described how a photographer was shot in the forehead from a distance of a metre, though it was unclear whether he witnessed it personally.
Another activist was shot as he was surrendering, he said.
"I took off my shirt and waved it, as a white flag. We thought they would stop after seeing the white flag, but they continued killing people," Yıldırım said.
"A friend of ours saw two dead bodies in a toilet," he added.
One of the dead was 19-year-old boy Furkan Doğan, a Turkish citizen with an american passport. State-run Anatolia news agency said he was hit by four bullets in the head and one in the chest.
Anatolia reported that the body of a national taekwando athlete, Çetin Topçuoğlu, had also been identified.
Yıldırım's Israeli interrogators told him that the soldiers were given permission to use live ammunition only 35 minutes into the operation. The charity chief said some activists had already been wounded by casing from the shock blast and gas bombs used in the initial assault.
He said soldiers had herded activists on deck and a helicopter had sprayed them with water to subdue them.
So now they admit to taking weapons from the soldiers. What on earth did were they expecting to happen? Also apparently the metal objects the activists used to fight the soldiers were pipes on the ship that were cut using angle grinders. Was there any other reason to cut them that to prepare for a fight?
By the way, I am outright rejecting the claim that Israel opened fire at the activists before landing. They may have fired warning shots, but that is not shooting at the activists.
Honestly I wouldn't even fire warning shots at civiilians, as they may be untrained and not familiar with the fact that it is not a serious shot. They might miss the warning part, and instead think that real shit is going down, which seems to be exactly what happened. Radioing them and specifically saying that warning, not serious, shots will be fired if they do not comply would be better. Even better would be to delay the boarding until the ship reaches Israeli waters. After all, once you board, you're almost certain to take control, unless a group of civilians is better than your navy.
Yes, Israel fucked up. There's no doubt about that. Had they waited for the Israeli waters, I believe the coverage would look very different. But warning shots on the sea is a rather common practise. Or at least that's how I understood it from the military guys (if someone knows better, feel free to correct me). I don't really see anything wrong with them.
It is a normal thing to do yes, just something that would be better left not done unless necessary. Never know when the people you fire warning shots at are noobs :/
On June 04 2010 01:08 Ghostcom wrote: Uh no - perhaps in Ireland, but not in Denmark. Al-Jazeera is in no way known for it's objectivity. Stop trying to pass your own beliefs as facts.
Fair enough. Before this turns into a silly argument. Would you care to link me to an article that shows their lack of credibility, or are you just trying to pass off your own belief as fact?
I'm sure there are people in every country who trust or distrust Al Jazeera. That on its own, isn't really enough I'm afraid.
I would gladly do so, but unless your have taken danish lessons you are going to be in trouble. But if you want an example of a production where the station screwed up you could just take the "documentary" they made about Denmark. Or the airing of: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MpGRBu7mzrg....
On June 04 2010 01:08 Ghostcom wrote: Uh no - perhaps in Ireland, but not in Denmark. Al-Jazeera is in no way known for it's objectivity. Stop trying to pass your own beliefs as facts.
Fair enough. Before this turns into a silly argument. Would you care to link me to an article that shows their lack of credibility, or are you just trying to pass off your own belief as fact?
I'm sure there are people in every country who trust or distrust Al Jazeera. That on its own, isn't really enough I'm afraid.
I would gladly do so, but unless your have taken danish lessons you are going to be in trouble. But if you want an example of a production where the station screwed up you could just take the "documentary" they made about Denmark. Or the airing of: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MpGRBu7mzrg....
Could you give a summary of the relevant points? My Danish is quite bad indeed :D
Israel earlier told the ambassadors of Cyprus, Turkey, Greece, and Ireland -- the countries from which the ships set sail -- that it "issued warrants that prohibit the entrance of the vessels to Gaza" and that the flotilla would be breaking international law.
Israel made it clear it intends to halt the vessels and detain the hundreds of people aboard in the port of Ashdod before deporting them.
Okay that's a fair point, I hadn't seen that quote before. Still I don't think anyone on board the ship thought that they would get attacked in the middle of the night, in interntational waters. They were waiting for daylight before entering Gaza waters (which Israel seems to control), and that suggests that whatever action they expected Israel to take, they expected it to happen there. As I said, I don't think they expected a commando assault in the middle of the night.
Here's the thing though, and this is pure speculation on my part. This is how I think it actually went down.
I think Israel had a choice. They could have waited for daylight, for the ships to enter Gaza waters (where I think they have legal jurisdiction). Then they would have been able to surround them with a shit load of police and army and then take over the ships.
I think the Israeli government wanted to avoid that. Because during day time all the cameras would be running and when they started beating people up who were only resisting peacefully it would look really bad on the world's cameras and cause a PR disaster. Now the Israeli's have gotten used to getting their way and getting away with it, because the US vetos any UN sanctions against them.
So they thought they would go with their usual shock and awe tactics, surprise the flotilla in the middle of the night with helicopters and speed boats and flash bangs, and subdue the passengers before the cameras had a chance to go on or anyone knew what the hell was happening. Then take them to Ashdod and deport them.
But they fucked it up. The lead ship had 600 passngers and was quite big. The nature and timing of the attack led SOME of the activists to believe that they we're under attack and begin to arm themselves with whatever they could find.
The Israeli's try to land their helicopters and the activists stand under them to block them, meanwhile Israel soldiers are attacking with plastic bullets, tear gas, sound grenades etc. Then some idiot IDF soldier fucks up and either uses live ammo by mistake, or misuses the plastic bullet and one of the protester drops to the floor with a hole in his head.
Now the protesters are CONVINCED the Israelis are going to kill them and they're determined to not let the commandos board.
The rest is history.
That in my opinion is the greatest tragedy. The reason this all got so fucked up was because, ironically, the Israelis wanted to avoid the bad PR of a daylight take over.
Look at it another way....
It's 3 am, international waters, you're probably a bit edgy anyway. Then all of a sudden you hear helicopters and speed boats. Loud bangs going off everywhere. You know the IDF have a reputation of killing civilians, aid workers and journalists, you don't trust them at all. Then you see someone get killed (accidentally or otherwise). What the fuck do you think people would do in this situation?
But they confiscated all the cameras anyway. Moreover, they had the ability to jam their contacts, so your theory about the motivation for a night-time attack seems quite weak.
Also, the metal pipes were cut from the ship. This shows clear preparation for confrontation, unless you can think of a good idea for why they were doing this.
On June 04 2010 01:26 Squeegy wrote: I disagree. Maybe you wish to back your claim with a link or ten?
Link to what? That Israel does not consider captured hamas fighters to be prisoners of war? Which it would have to if it was legally at war with Hamas.
Also, it isn't that you needed to be more clear here. It's rather you should've said something entirely different than what you did. You actually said the rocket attacks would be legal acts of war. That is not an issue of making an unclear distinction, that is an issue of being outright wrong.
Firing rockets against your declared enemy in war IS a legal act of war. But firing them indiscriminately without regard for civilian casualties is a war crime. So in that sense you are correct. That distinction didn't occur to me at the time and I was mistaken. I should have said that it would still be a war crime, but not an act of terrorism.
It doesn't matter if the knives were kitchen knives. It matters that they used them to fight. That is what makes them armed.
Nope. There is a difference between arming yourself and going somewhere. And being unarmed, finding yourself under attack and picking up whatever you can find to defend yourself.
Again, there's not enough evidence to support that knives were used. Or if they we're how many. Israel has shown a photo of all the knives they found on the ship, that doesn't prove they were used.
On June 04 2010 01:17 broz0rs wrote: I'm reserving judgment until the independent report comes out, but this morning the Israeli Prime Minister had a press conference and the contents of the speech was the typical "we are the victims, everybody hates us" banter. He defended the actions of his military and claimed that the ships could carry up to 200 missiles that will be used against his country. He also had an epic statement that the floatilla "was not the love boat, but it was the hate boat!!" It's hard to remain unbiased when you read stuff like this.
I know. Israel's PR department needs to be sacked. Anyway, it is also hard to remain unbiased when you read stuff like this:
On June 04 2010 01:21 beetlejuice wrote: "We told the Indonesian doctor to take the soldier back. He took his patient back, and as he was going back, they shot him 5 times in the stomach,"
One of the dead was 19-year-old boy Furkan Doğan, a Turkish citizen with an american passport. State-run Anatolia news agency said he was hit by four bullets in the head and one in the chest.
What possible motivation could there be for this to happen? I really can't imagine any and that is why I find this so very hard to believe.
Maybe the soldiers boarding were new to this type of thing? Got scared by seeming mass swarm of people, so somewhat uncontrolled firing? There's a lot of way things like this could happen. Maybe the doctor was not well marked as a doctor - could have been in plainclothes and the soldiers did not have enough time to devote on him to parse the fact that he was a doctor and not trying to kill their fellow soldier who was already wounded. Maybe Dogan was in a similar situation somehow, and a group of the soldiers all aimed at him and shot to stop him, because somehow he was a high priority target due to the immediate tactical situation.
There are so many ways that those two events could have played out that I find it strange you would immediately resort to disbelief of the testimony of the people on board the ship. Their testimony may be incomplete in that it leaves out relevant situational information, but it's doesn't take a leap of faith to believe those 2 facts alone.
The soldiers were something like the Navy Seals of Israel. Elite, in other words. That is why I doubt they would be making such gross errors, even if the situation didn't work out as they expected. This is the unit: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shayetet_13
On June 04 2010 01:44 Ghostcom wrote: I would gladly do so, but unless your have taken danish lessons you are going to be in trouble. But if you want an example of a production where the station screwed up you could just take the "documentary" they made about Denmark. Or the airing of: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MpGRBu7mzrg....
Nope I haven't taken danish lessons, but I haven't yet seen credible evidence that they are untrustworthy somehow.
I'm happy to watch the documentary about Denmark.
As for the youtube clip, I'm not sure that proves anything. The BBC invited the leader of the BNP (an extremist, racist, right wing party in the UK) onto question time. Both the BBC and Sky News have shown speeches made by the BNP leader, that does not make them racist news channels.
I'd need to see the whole program and the context of it. Were Al Jazeera saying they supported this cleric's views?
EPT
