I've always held some level of pride the fact that I could type fast. My other friend at school had put me to considering switching to Dvorak*, along with him. After a bit of research, I learned it doesn't take very long to regain past speed using Dvorak (~1 month of exclusive use). The main issue is that they say you shouldn't use QWERTY at all during that time period, and it is probably very difficult, if not impossible to maintain muscle memory for both keyboards. Now my question is, have any of you made the switch from QWERTY to Dvorak, or tried, or have any advice for it?
The main concerns going through my mind are that it would be slower at first, so in case I had to type anything, then I'd have to stop using it, or simply not be able to type at all. I countered this thought by doing it over summer vacation, when I'd have the free time.
Secondly, I realized, not all computers give you the access to remap the keyboards to the desired layout. Meaning if I were to type at school, then I'd either have to type significantly slower, or I'd have to bring my own keyboard. Bringing my own keyboard to school everyday would be... undesirable to say the least.
*Note: Dvorak is often referred to as the keyboard designed for speed. QWERTY was originally designed to intentionally slow people down because typing too fast on type writers would jam them.
EDIT: I read intrigue's blog, didn't really notice any sign of success by anyone. Also, I am planning on remapping keys for game purposes, the main issue would be SC. Otherwise, WASD aren't actually WASD but rather up, down, left and right, so it won't be an issue.
EDIT2: Any suggestions on buying a keyboard? Preferably one with Dvorak key layouts available.
I used to type Dvorak and it didn't take long to switch to it. However, I switched back due to the fact that some programs (like Photoshop) weren't compatible with it and still used the Qwerty layout despite me changing to Dvorak.
So my advice is to not change the physical layout of the keys, that is to still have a qwerty-keyboard but to change the settings so that you type Dvorak on a Qwerty layout. It's also better to learn it that way since you are forced to learn to type without looking at the keys, which further improves your speed.
Also, if you come to a new computer, you can just change the settings and not have to bother about what the layout is.
QWERTY was originally designed to intentionally slow people down because typing too fast on type writers would jam them.
Myth. QWERTY was designed to allow people to type faster without jamming the typewriter. Wikipedia it if you need more explanation.
I'm not an expert on Dvorak vs QWERTY but I believe that there is little evidence that Dvorak is actually significantly better. I think the world record for typing speed was indeed set on Dvorak but the average person does not gain much by switching from QWERTY to Dvorak IIRC.
Some month ago switched from qwertz(german) to qwerty(US), and I still haven't really gotten used to it. Especially the special chars... No idea how good dvorak is, but qwertz(german) sucks.
And usually you can change to layout on school comps since it doesn't require admin privilegues.
On December 05 2009 06:24 Scrixie wrote: ...did he just site wiki? -_-
But ya i tried switching to Dvorak but had the same problem that i was in programming classes in school and would have been to big a hassle.
If you're one of those cool internet guys who thinks Wiki is useless, you could just google QWERTY and find plenty of other sites saying the same thing as Wiki. And I think the word you're looking for is "cite."
On December 05 2009 06:24 Scrixie wrote: ...did he just site wiki? -_-
But ya i tried switching to Dvorak but had the same problem that i was in programming classes in school and would have been to big a hassle.
If you're one of those cool internet guys who thinks Wiki is useless, you could just google QWERTY and find plenty of other sites saying the same thing as Wiki. And I think the word you're looking for is "cite."
Seriously. If we were talking about a research paper or something, then of course citing Wikipedia isn't such a great idea, but this is an internet forum. We're not exactly going for rigor here.
On December 05 2009 06:24 Scrixie wrote: ...did he just site wiki? -_-
But ya i tried switching to Dvorak but had the same problem that i was in programming classes in school and would have been to big a hassle.
If you're one of those cool internet guys who thinks Wiki is useless, you could just google QWERTY and find plenty of other sites saying the same thing as Wiki. And I think the word you're looking for is "cite."
lolol gottem
Wiki isn't perfect and people fuck around with it sometimes, but it's not like it's there to purposefully mislead people.
I learned Dvorak a couple years ago, but went back to qwerty cause I could never get used to the punctuation/special chars getting moved around, and hotkeys tend to be designed with qwerty in mind (copy/paste = ctrl-i, ctrl-.). It is more comfortable, but... where's the damned dash again? Over there? Whyyy
I made the switch over summer. I never used a layout for dvorak, but learned purely off of memory, a very painful experience. I would just do exercise to practice dvorak over and over until I finally got it. The downside is that I practiced with the correct typing position, so I know where everything is in relation to that, rather than the absolute position of the keys, so it's harder to type one-handed, or pinpoint certain letters. Now I frequently switch back and forth, since I use qwerty for almost every game, and dvorak otherwise. Dvorak wasn't made with only typing speed in mind, but also with fatigue. It's pretty noticeable difference. With qwerty keyboards, you see people moving their fingers all around, and it looks impressive, whereas a dvorak user with the same speed would barely be moving their fingers around. I would recommend not using qwerty at all for the first couple months, which makes it quite hard to game.
i learned dvorak, but eventually went back to qwerty. don't bother buying a dvorak keyboard, at least not until you really like it. for now, just remap your keys. if you use other keyboards (school computer, friend's computer, etc), expect to use qwerty on them. i personally never had any trouble or speedloss when i had to use qwerty again, but until i became comfortable with dvorak, every switch slowed down my learning and discouraged me. the two biggest reasons i gave up on making the permanent switch were 1. i couldn't stand my ctrl+zxcv being all over the keyboard (although there are 3rd party remapping programs to get around that), and 2. i generally do one-handed typing when browsing, and i disliked how it felt on the normal dvorak layout. if you haven't looked into it, consider the colemak layout. it keeps a lot of normal qwerty shortcut keys, but, like dvorak, feels much nicer to type with. if i had learned colemak instead, i'd probably still be using it. switching layouts isn't for everyone. the experience that someone's friend had may be completely different from the one you will have. your fingers will move around on the keyboard significantly less, and typing will generally feel better, but you shouldn't expect an increase in how fast you type. Godspeed.
I tried Dvorak, never really got used to it,and went back to qwerty. i mean i can already do 130 wpm on qwerty and I'll probably get even faster as time goes by, why bother switching
I feel like it would be sweet to learn Dvorak if everyone else made the transition too. It would suck having to switch your mindset from Dvorak to qwerty everytime you use somebody else's computer
Can't give you any advice on Dvorak, but I can perfectly type in both QWERTY and AZERTY (a lot of other changes on the keyboard besides the A too). The special characters just take a little more time to get used to, but eventually they don't bother you either.
The biggest problem is with games and shortcuts, that are usually designed for a specific keyboard type. For example, on Azerty, the L is right next to the M, on the far right side. Whenever I cut short of my M in a TvZ, I lift all my barracks. Oh and the A is in a less convenient position too.
If you switched to Dvorak now, you'd probably get used to typing in it pretty fast, but learning 1a2a3a4a again would take a lot longer, especially to get the same speed/accuracy
On December 05 2009 06:24 Scrixie wrote: ...did he just site wiki? -_-
But ya i tried switching to Dvorak but had the same problem that i was in programming classes in school and would have been to big a hassle.
If you're one of those cool internet guys who thinks Wiki is useless, you could just google QWERTY and find plenty of other sites saying the same thing as Wiki. And I think the word you're looking for is "cite."
I typed Qwerty at roughly 70 WPM when I learned Dvorak. I learned it at 90-100 WPM and then started looking even further. I then learned Arensito to about 65 WPM, which was confusing. During that time I was also trying to learn the left-hand-only and right-hand-only Dvorak layouts (got to about 30 WPM with each). Then I tried Colemak, which is my favorite layout. I dropped Dvorak and Arensito, and picked that up instead. I always used Qwerty for SC due to the hotkeys (and it kept my Qwerty skills fresh). I'm now about 80WPM with Qwerty, and 90-100 WPM with Colemak.
tl;dr Visit www.colemak.com and use it for everything but Starcraft (and WSAD games). You can even carry it on a pendrive that auto-loads when you insert it, for use on school computers (read their forums on how to do that). Stick with Qwerty for SC, because Qwerty skills are sometimes needed in the real world.
I use Alt+Shift+1 to switch to Qwerty, Alt+Shift+2 to switch to Colemak. (I don't type Dvorak or Arensito anymore -- no need.)
EDIT: This.
On December 05 2009 08:30 PUPATREE wrote: if you haven't looked into it, consider the colemak layout. it keeps a lot of normal qwerty shortcut keys, but, like dvorak, feels much nicer to type with. if i had learned colemak instead, i'd probably still be using it.
why would i mess with 20 years of experience i have with qwerty people who switch are just trying to be different for the sake of being different , like MAC users
On December 05 2009 10:23 PobTheCad wrote: why would i mess with 20 years of experience i have with qwerty people who switch are just trying to be different for the sake of being different , like MAC users
I don't have time now to learn the Colemak layout Learning a new keyboard layout is difficult and frustrating during the first few days, but you will reap the benefits every time you type for the rest of your life. You'll need to invest some time at first, but you'll be able to recoup your time investment many times over. Even if you decide not to learn the layout, I recommend remapping the Caps Lock key to Backspace. That change alone results in a 15%-20% reduction of finger distance on QWERTY. After experiencing the difference perhaps you'll be more motivated to learn an alternative layout.
After just an hour of installing Colemak and playing with the typing lessons, I highly reccomend it. I tried learning Dvorak a while back, but it was too radical for me.
I am a computer engineer, and i exclusively use dvorak. I switched during a summer break during high school, about 7 years ago, and regained my old speed within 2 weeks.
I noticed a radical difference in the amount i was able to type, as i routinely typed for periods of over 10 hours. My fingers pretty much would not hurt at all, and I wouldn't need to take any breaks. It is NOT A MYTH that qwerty was designed to slow your typing down. It is a MYTH that dvorak is worse than qwerty. There was a study perform, where a rival of Dvorak falsified data to show that qwerty was better, but when question about the data, he said he had destroyed it.
I do agree that there is no scientific data that says dvorak is better over qwerty. This is because no one is jumping up and down to fund such a study. Qwerty was adopted as the standard as computers came into existence, and it isn't economically feasible to switch everyone, so that is why Dvorak has never caught on.
Now, i have a device called a QIDO (QWERTY in Dvorak out), it is a usb plug that goes in between a qwerty keyboard and a computer. It switchs the input of qwerty to be dvorak, so there is no need to change system settings. However, any system allows you to switch in about 3-4 clicks or a quick command line expersion. I needed the QIDO because i work on legacy systems that have DoD lock downs, so it is literally impossible to change the settings.
I'm typing right now in Dvorak, and I'm probably the only one on TL doing so because there are so few Dvorak users. Anyway, let me preface my experiences by saying that I used qwerty from day 1 like everyone else and I've typed with qwerty and gotten used to qwerty for long time to be able to type at about 80 wpm.
I switched to Dvorak about 2 years ago because I felt that qwerty wasn't that comfortable on my fingers, especially the overuse of the pinky fingers. In my opinion, the qwerty keyboard layout is average, but in some cases it can be terrible. For example, "starcraft" is a pain in the ass to type in qwerty because all of the letters are typed by the left hand. Dvorak utilizes both hands in every single word, allowing you to type slightly faster, but more importantly it is a lot more comfortable to type. To give you another example, the word "the" is so easy and fast to type the the the the the, I could type that all day. I mean, the word "the" isn't that bad to type in qwerty so maybe it's a bad example, but typing "the" in Dvorak is so fluid and natural. When I was using qwerty, I remember some words that I found annoying to type. Conversely, I can't really think of any examples of words that I find annoying to type in Dvorak.
One day, I decided to switch to Dvorak from qwerty. I remapped my keys and started memorizing the new layout. The first week was painfully slow for me, I had to consciously think of every single letter and I felt like a retard when typing through aim cuz I was typing at like 10 wpm. I made quick progress though, because the Dvorak layout is surprisingly easy to learn. I'm pretty sure that any given person could type faster in Dvorak if they were given the Dvorak layout and the qwerty layout and the same amount of time to learn both. It probably took me a month and a half to forget qwerty and relearn everything, at which point I probably equaled my previous qwerty typing speed. Since then, I've surpassed my qwerty typing speed, and I'm sitting at about 95 wpm.
Cons: The biggest con to switching to Dvorak is that hardly anyone uses it. That means you have to use qwerty when you're using someone else's computer unless you temporarily remap their keys.
Another disadvantage is when you are playing games. A lot of games like starcraft have hotkeys based on the qwerty keyboard, so I sometimes get confused and press the wrong keys because I've forgotten the qwerty layout.
Relearning keyboard layout.
Pros: It's more comfortable. I could type for days and not feel any pain with Dvorak.
There also probably is a small typing speed advantage, but if you switch, do not switch based on speed alone... it's probably not worth it.
The "j" key isn't in a dumb place on the keyboard. What were they thinking when they put it directly under the right pointer finger? (in Dvorak, "j" is placed where "c" is in qwerty)
It makes it impossible for someone to look at your hands to guess your password... :D
P.S. If you do switch, DO NOT take out the keys on your keyboard. Just leave it as qwerty for reference in case you are forced to use qwerty or if someone else needs to use your computer. Also, this forces you to memorize the Dvorak layout which allows you to learn faster and forces you to not look at the keyboard. Again, this will be a pain in the ass for the first couple weeks, but it's definitely the way to go.
Edit: ^ looks like I was wrong about me being the only person on here using Dvorak D:
The main problem with Dvorak is that it's too difficult and frustrating to learn for existing QWERTY typists because it's so different from QWERTY. Colemak has been designed to be easy to learn. Placing 'L' on the QWERTY 'P' position causes excessive strain on the right pinky. Colemak doesn't place frequent letters where the pinkies stretch.
'F' is on the QWERTY 'Y' position which is a difficult stretch on normal keyboards. 'I' is very frequent but isn't on the home position. 'R' is very frequent but isn't on the home row. It is significantly lopsided so that the right hand does too much work. It's not comfortable to use Ctrl-Z/X/C/V shortcuts with the left hand while holding the mouse with the right hand. Colemak conserves those shortcuts in their QWERTY positions. Even though the design principles are sound, the implementation isn't optimal because it was designed without the aid of computers. 'L' and 'S' form a frequent same-finger digraph on the right pinky. Same-finger for the pinky is very rare in Colemak. In particular, Unix commands such as 'ls -l' are very uncomfortable to type. Some punctuation (in particular the curly/square brackets) is less comfortable to type on Dvorak. This affects mainly programmers and advanced Unix users.
I seriously do not comprehend the concept of how someone would want to relearn something they already know how to do, that is never gonna be standardized, just so their fingers are less tired and maybe get a little faster speed???? Honestly man, we fucking play starcraft nonstop slamming our fingers all over the damn place and u want to make ur fingers more comfortable?!?!? The only way i see it being remotely worthwhile is if you are a secretary. Kudos to you for going all the way in your career.
On December 05 2009 11:00 FortuneSyn wrote: I seriously do not comprehend the concept of how someone would want to relearn something they already know how to do, that is never gonna be standardized, just so their fingers are less tired and maybe get a little faster speed???? Honestly man, we fucking play starcraft nonstop slamming our fingers all over the damn place and u want to make ur fingers more comfortable?!?!? The only way i see it being remotely worthwhile is if you are a secretary. Kudos to you for going all the way in your career.
Nice post, troll.
Some people are interested in life hacks.
It's like re-learning how to play Bisu build from the usualy one gate builds. If there's a better way of doing something, then some people are interested in it. If not, then meh.
On December 05 2009 11:00 FortuneSyn wrote: I seriously do not comprehend the concept of how someone would want to relearn something they already know how to do, that is never gonna be standardized, just so their fingers are less tired and maybe get a little faster speed???? Honestly man, we fucking play starcraft nonstop slamming our fingers all over the damn place and u want to make ur fingers more comfortable?!?!? The only way i see it being remotely worthwhile is if you are a secretary. Kudos to you for going all the way in your career.
I actually enjoyed relearning the keyboard layout.
I think another keyboard layout would actually set me back unless I'd also remap a lot of hotkeys in the programs I use. This is the pretty much the one and only drawback that will keep me from switching and I don't think this will change anytime soon, either.
I'm currently typing this message in Colemak. While it is currently taking awhile, I feel like I could type for longer amounts of time and not get as tired. Of course, it might be because I'm typing so slowly in the first place.
On December 05 2009 06:56 synapse wrote: This isnt a thread about Antonín Dvořák? :'(
I too looked in this thread in the hope that it would be about the composer :'(
I considered switching keyboard layouts a while back, decided against it since the only real benefit, from what I've seen, is a possibility of an insignificant increase in speed + being able to feel cool for being "alternative" with your keyboard usage.
I think it would be worth it if you have a job that's specifically about copying written documents to digital... But otherwise I would ask if you really think that much faster than you type. That is, would it actually save you time, or have you already gotten in time with your thoughts?
The other issue is that you would have a lot of trouble using computers at libraries and other people's houses. It's sad, but sometimes the most popular is the most efficient despite correctable flaws.
Edit: Should have read what the person above me posted... lol. Well that.
The main problem is that it'll be pain if for some reason you had to use a computer aside from your own. Of course you could go into the keyboard settings and change it for whatever computer you're using at the moment, but why bother with the process. I tried dvorak for a bit but it wasn't worth it. No real reason for me to type faster than 80 wpm anyway.
People should switch to Dvorak for the single reason that qwerty is a stupid layout and every person who converts is bringing us 1 step closer to sane keyboards.
On December 06 2009 16:16 Dental Floss wrote: People should switch to Dvorak for the single reason that qwerty is a stupid layout and every person who converts is bringing us 1 step closer to sane keyboards.
LOL, I sincerely doubt that everyone is going to switch because you found a system of typing stupid. Sure, QWERTY might not be the "most optimal," but it is a system that a lot of people have learned it, "stupid" or not.
Furthermore, the lack of testing between keyboard layouts means anecdotal evidence is currently the strongest evidence of keyboard superiority.
On December 06 2009 16:16 Dental Floss wrote: People should switch to Dvorak for the single reason that qwerty is a stupid layout and every person who converts is bringing us 1 step closer to sane keyboards.
LOL, I sincerely doubt that everyone is going to switch because you found a system of typing stupid. Sure, QWERTY might not be the "most optimal," but it is a system that a lot of people have learned it, "stupid" or not.
Furthermore, the lack of testing between keyboard layouts means anecdotal evidence is currently the strongest evidence of keyboard superiority.
On December 06 2009 17:16 fight_or_flight wrote: I wonder if there is a hardware converter than could convert a normal keyboard to dvorak.....like an in-line USB or PS2 converter.
I completely made the switch to Svorak (Dvorak with swedish characters?) from Qwerty a couple of years ago, and stuck with it for about a year, and yeah you should be comfortable with Dvorak within a month or so, it was much harder to go back to Qwerty than learning a completely new layout like Svorak, mainly because you realize how silly Qwerty is compared to a layout that's designed to be ergonomic like Dvorak/Svorak. It's probably possible to be really fluent in both layouts at the same time if you have atleast somewhat equal time on both, I found it quite hard with Qwerty since I used Svorak exclusively at home, and the little Qwerty use I got at the time was pretty much only at school and that was a little painful.
Anyway good luck with the lightning fast typing you will learn sooner or later with Dvorak!
On December 06 2009 17:04 Dental Floss wrote: I don't see any reason to buy a blu-ray player, I mean, none of my friends have blu-ray players, and they wouldn't be able to borrow my movies!
And besides, DVDs are just as good. Are there any tests that show people can even tell the difference???
The ironic thing is that you're being serious, and yet blu-ray is an absolutely ridiculous dead-before-it-started technology. It's completely proprietary and inferior to countless other high resolution technologies.
It's the 4th day and I'm already on the Colemak fully. Typing on it as we speak. It's pretty easy to learn and really, it makes way more sense than QWERTY. So much more of the typing is done on home row. Thanks to ChessWhiz !
For you Colemak users: Are you able to switch between qwerty and colemak easily? How much conditioning does this take, and do you ever mix up the keys while you are typing since they are somewhat similar?
BTW, one reason that I like Dvorak better is because it forces you to alternate hands while typing more than any other layout. Was Colemak designed with this in mind?
On December 08 2009 07:45 Mooga wrote: For you Colemak users: Are you able to switch between qwerty and colemak easily? How much conditioning does this take, and do you ever mix up the keys while you are typing since they are somewhat similar?
BTW, one reason that I like Dvorak better is because it forces you to alternate hands while typing more than any other layout. Was Colemak designed with this in mind?
I'm a Colemak noob, but able to switch quite easily. QWERTY doesn't go away. A glance at the keyboard and you are reminded by it. Muscle memory is still quite strong.
What's wrong with the Dvorak layout? The main problem with Dvorak is that it's too difficult and frustrating to learn for existing QWERTY typists because it's so different from QWERTY. Colemak has been designed to be easy to learn.
Placing 'L' on the QWERTY 'P' position causes excessive strain on the right pinky. Colemak doesn't place frequent letters where the pinkies stretch.
'F' is on the QWERTY 'Y' position which is a difficult stretch on normal keyboards. 'I' is very frequent but isn't on the home position. 'R' is very frequent but isn't on the home row.
It is significantly lopsided so that the right hand does too much work.
It's not comfortable to use Ctrl-Z/X/C/V shortcuts with the left hand while holding the mouse with the right hand. Colemak conserves those shortcuts in their QWERTY positions.
Even though the design principles are sound, the implementation isn't optimal because it was designed without the aid of computers.
'L' and 'S' form a frequent same-finger digraph on the right pinky. Same-finger for the pinky is very rare in Colemak. In particular, Unix commands such as 'ls -l' are very uncomfortable to type. Some punctuation (in particular the curly/square brackets) is less comfortable to type on Dvorak. This affects mainly programmers and advanced Unix users.
On December 08 2009 07:45 Mooga wrote: For you Colemak users: Are you able to switch between qwerty and colemak easily? How much conditioning does this take, and do you ever mix up the keys while you are typing since they are somewhat similar?
BTW, one reason that I like Dvorak better is because it forces you to alternate hands while typing more than any other layout. Was Colemak designed with this in mind?
I'm a Colemak noob, but able to switch quite easily. QWERTY doesn't go away. A glance at the keyboard and you are reminded by it. Muscle memory is still quite strong.
When I first switched to Dvorak, I still had qwerty in the back of my mind and I knew that I could revert back at any moment if I wanted to and type at 80 wpm. But after a month or two of relearning the layout and typing exclusively in Dvorak, I realized that I couldn't revert back anymore. So I'm skeptical of your statement because when I was a Dvorak "noob" qwerty didn't go away for me either, but after completely relearning it did go away. Is this is somehow different for Colemak users?
Maybe I just haven't tried very hard to maintain qwerty speed. Muscle memory for qwerty is gone for me after a couple years of using the Dvorak layout. How hard is it to maintain two sets of muscle memory and switch between them? Any other experienced Colemak users have any opinions on how hard it is switch in between the two?
On December 08 2009 07:45 Mooga wrote: For you Colemak users: Are you able to switch between qwerty and colemak easily? How much conditioning does this take, and do you ever mix up the keys while you are typing since they are somewhat similar?
BTW, one reason that I like Dvorak better is because it forces you to alternate hands while typing more than any other layout. Was Colemak designed with this in mind?
I'm a Colemak noob, but able to switch quite easily. QWERTY doesn't go away. A glance at the keyboard and you are reminded by it. Muscle memory is still quite strong.
When I first switched to Dvorak, I still had qwerty in the back of my mind and I knew that I could revert back at any moment if I wanted to and type at 80 wpm. But after a month or two of relearning the layout and typing exclusively in Dvorak, I realized that I couldn't revert back anymore. So I'm skeptical of your statement because when I was a Dvorak "noob" qwerty didn't go away for me either, but after completely relearning it did go away. Is this is somehow different for Colemak users?
Maybe I just haven't tried very hard to maintain qwerty speed. Muscle memory for qwerty is gone for me after a couple years of using the Dvorak layout. How hard is it to maintain two sets of muscle memory and switch between them? Any other experienced Colemak users have any opinions on how hard it is switch in between the two?
On December 05 2009 06:29 MasterOfChaos wrote: Some month ago switched from qwertz(german) to qwerty(US), and I still haven't really gotten used to it. Especially the special chars... No idea how good dvorak is, but qwertz(german) sucks.
And usually you can change to layout on school comps since it doesn't require admin privilegues.
A lot of us had annoyances with QWERTZ at the Freiburg Lan. A lot of wondering why we had no Zealots or Zerglings. Twice I wondered why I couldn't build a cycore either. That's just two keys difference in Starcraft. Must be a pain learning a whole new keyboard.
Haven't had time to read all the replies, but here's my experience:
Exclusive use helps! When I was learning I kept a printed out copy of the layout next to my keyboard so that I could cheat a bit.
Don't do a hardware keyboad, imho. Best to use software. However, using public computers SUCKS big time if you're expecting Dvorak and you can't swap layouts. I've found that in general, most internet cafes and even academic machines tend to allow it.
I've found a few shortcomings of Dvorak:
Games and many other applications' hotkeys are designed with a QWERTY layout in mind. Sometimes Dvorak makes things kind of awkward here. I personally often will do a switch/switch back motion to hotkey, depending.
If you're a programmer, it can be a little tough getting used to the positioning of all the brackets/braces. I find they're not quite as convenient as with qwerty. Note that there is a layout called "Programmer Dvorak," but I personally haven't looked into it yet. If you use vi or emacs, you may want to remap your keys to match the new layout.
Dvorak's biggest strength is when you're writing ENGLISH characters. That's what it's optimized for.
So, personally, I program in Qwerty and word process/IM in Dvorak.
Depends how fast you are in QWERTY, I suppose - If you're at already 120-130 wpm in QWERTY, even if you switch to DVORAK you'll maybe get 15-20 wpm faster, a small gain for losing a lot of compatibility with the world (it's like switching from PC to Unix or something). Pushing beyond 150-160 wpm boundary requires more than just a decent finger speed/reflexes and a favourable keyboard layout - and even if you can peak over 160, I find that it's extremely difficult to keep your accuracy at an acceptable level for lengthy typing (more than just a few paragraphs).
If you're thinking you can improve your wpm by a lot more significant margin and you need that speed to become more efficient at whatever, then I guess it'll be worth it.
I've decided to give colemak (which is ironically an awkward word to type on this keyboard) a try. It seems a lot more comfortable, even though I'm typing at 8 WPM. E will seriously consider it when I get the time to do so.
Ghur ur mf gj;ukd QWFPGJ rgjif yk ghf cyifmae efjbyaps. Kucf fkcpj;guyk, urk'g ug? (Have fun with that )
On December 10 2009 12:22 Archaic wrote: Ghur ur mf gj;ukd QWFPGJ rgjif yk ghf cyifmae efjbyaps. Kucf fkcpj;guyk, urk'g ug?
Haha, I had fun with that. It says:
"This is me typing QWERTY style on the colemak keyboard. Nice encryption, isn't it?"
To decode it, you must set your keyboard to Qwerty, then type the letters as if you were typing in Colemak. I've had a lot of fun with that in IM messages with friends.
QWERTY was originally designed to intentionally slow people down because typing too fast on type writers would jam them.
Myth. QWERTY was designed to allow people to type faster without jamming the typewriter.
Correct, but notice the clause "without jamming the typewriter". That is no longer a issue, and a layout that doesn't concern itself with that could be faster. Whether or not Dvorak is actually faster I can't say, but QWERTY, while not designed to slow you down, was also not designed for maximum speed as it also had to fulfill the requirement of not jamming.
well not sure if its faster, but the distance of "finger movement" for Dvorak is a lot less than qwerty. just because the way keys are designed are better suited for modern english. but i mean if you type random string of letters then it makes no difference.
On December 06 2009 17:04 Dental Floss wrote: I don't see any reason to buy a blu-ray player, I mean, none of my friends have blu-ray players, and they wouldn't be able to borrow my movies!
And besides, DVDs are just as good. Are there any tests that show people can even tell the difference???
I've just started getting into math, and I decided to see if there was a more reasonable layout for typing LaTeX. I started with Dvorak (I type like this at around 120WPM in qwerty) and it took me a day to get to around 30-40 WPM, but it doesn't seem any better for math input. I found Dvorak programmer layout, but the number layout and the fact that you have to use shift for a number is very difficult to accept.
Are there any programmers/LaTeX users here who have used Dvorak/Colemak (at a fairly high WPM) who know if it's worth it to make the switch? I might just stick with qwerty, or find a way to make my own layout.
On December 12 2009 03:30 Vedic wrote: I've just started getting into math, and I decided to see if there was a more reasonable layout for typing LaTeX. I started with Dvorak (I type like this at around 120WPM in qwerty) and it took me a day to get to around 30-40 WPM, but it doesn't seem any better for math input. I found Dvorak programmer layout, but the number layout and the fact that you have to use shift for a number is very difficult to accept.
Are there any programmers/LaTeX users here who have used Dvorak/Colemak (at a fairly high WPM) who know if it's worth it to make the switch? I might just stick with qwerty, or find a way to make my own layout.
I installed portable Colemak at my school. Though I still typed mostly in QWERTY, I tried it a bit on typeracer, and it was pretty easy to remember. I could remember most of the letters, hit ~12 WPM, most letters without looking at the picture after about... 10-15 minutes. I normally type ~120 on QWERTY.
I think the main issue with the QWERTY layout is the location of the letter A.
Lately, I did a typing course to see if I could improve my WPM, which oscillates around 70-90 WPM. First thing I noticed, I position my hand badly in the keyboard. I almost NEVER use my small finger, and the course advices to press: -A with your small finger -S with your ring finger -D with the middle finer -F,G with the index finger.
I do: A = Ring S, D = Middle F, G = Index
I dont get tired at all typing with QWERTY, but if I ever start using my small finger I get tired REALLY fast.
On December 12 2009 03:30 Vedic wrote: I've just started getting into math, and I decided to see if there was a more reasonable layout for typing LaTeX. I started with Dvorak (I type like this at around 120WPM in qwerty) and it took me a day to get to around 30-40 WPM, but it doesn't seem any better for math input. I found Dvorak programmer layout, but the number layout and the fact that you have to use shift for a number is very difficult to accept.
Are there any programmers/LaTeX users here who have used Dvorak/Colemak (at a fairly high WPM) who know if it's worth it to make the switch? I might just stick with qwerty, or find a way to make my own layout.
I installed portable Colemak at my school. Though I still typed mostly in QWERTY, I tried it a bit on typeracer, and it was pretty easy to remember. I could remember most of the letters, hit ~12 WPM, most letters without looking at the picture after about... 10-15 minutes. I normally type ~120 on QWERTY.
I have a feeling you'll be able to beat 120. If you type at that speed in QWERTY, then your limiting factor is pretty much your finger physically moving, and since Colemak reduces that, you'll be able to achieve higher speeds.
On December 08 2009 07:45 Mooga wrote: For you Colemak users: Are you able to switch between qwerty and colemak easily? How much conditioning does this take, and do you ever mix up the keys while you are typing since they are somewhat similar?
BTW, one reason that I like Dvorak better is because it forces you to alternate hands while typing more than any other layout. Was Colemak designed with this in mind?
I'm a Colemak noob, but able to switch quite easily. QWERTY doesn't go away. A glance at the keyboard and you are reminded by it. Muscle memory is still quite strong.
When I first switched to Dvorak, I still had qwerty in the back of my mind and I knew that I could revert back at any moment if I wanted to and type at 80 wpm. But after a month or two of relearning the layout and typing exclusively in Dvorak, I realized that I couldn't revert back anymore. So I'm skeptical of your statement because when I was a Dvorak "noob" qwerty didn't go away for me either, but after completely relearning it did go away. Is this is somehow different for Colemak users?
Maybe I just haven't tried very hard to maintain qwerty speed. Muscle memory for qwerty is gone for me after a couple years of using the Dvorak layout. How hard is it to maintain two sets of muscle memory and switch between them? Any other experienced Colemak users have any opinions on how hard it is switch in between the two?
My QWERTY muscle memory is completely gone, and its only been 2 weeks. I didn't expect it to go so quickly. On another note, I'll never look back (unless to play SC of course. That's an entirely new muscle memory!)
After you learn colemak for the first time you shouldn't use qwerty at all until you get colemak up to speed. After that, you have to relearn qwerty, but after you've relearned qwerty they both stick.
On December 20 2009 23:52 Phrujbaz wrote: I type 120 on colemak and 100 in qwerty.
After you learn colemak for the first time you shouldn't use qwerty at all until you get colemak up to speed. After that, you have to relearn qwerty, but after you've relearned qwerty they both stick.
I've been so slow in learning colemak for this exact reason. Definitely don't use QWERTY when you're learning it; You get confused.
On December 20 2009 23:52 Phrujbaz wrote: I type 120 on colemak and 100 in qwerty.
After you learn colemak for the first time you shouldn't use qwerty at all until you get colemak up to speed. After that, you have to relearn qwerty, but after you've relearned qwerty they both stick.
On December 08 2009 07:45 Mooga wrote: For you Colemak users: Are you able to switch between qwerty and colemak easily? How much conditioning does this take, and do you ever mix up the keys while you are typing since they are somewhat similar?
BTW, one reason that I like Dvorak better is because it forces you to alternate hands while typing more than any other layout. Was Colemak designed with this in mind?
I'm a Colemak noob, but able to switch quite easily. QWERTY doesn't go away. A glance at the keyboard and you are reminded by it. Muscle memory is still quite strong.
The main problem with Dvorak is that it's too difficult and frustrating to learn for existing QWERTY typists because it's so different from QWERTY. Colemak has been designed to be easy to learn.
Placing 'L' on the QWERTY 'P' position causes excessive strain on the right pinky. Colemak doesn't place frequent letters where the pinkies stretch.
'F' is on the QWERTY 'Y' position which is a difficult stretch on normal keyboards. 'I' is very frequent but isn't on the home position. 'R' is very frequent but isn't on the home row.
It is significantly lopsided so that the right hand does too much work.
It's not comfortable to use Ctrl-Z/X/C/V shortcuts with the left hand while holding the mouse with the right hand. Colemak conserves those shortcuts in their QWERTY positions.
Even though the design principles are sound, the implementation isn't optimal because it was designed without the aid of computers.
'L' and 'S' form a frequent same-finger digraph on the right pinky. Same-finger for the pinky is very rare in Colemak. In particular, Unix commands such as 'ls -l' are very uncomfortable to type. Some punctuation (in particular the curly/square brackets) is less comfortable to type on Dvorak. This affects mainly programmers and advanced Unix users.
1. Wrong if you ever learned more then two languages you should know learning a language that is very similar to another one in words can be difficult becuase you will mix up assioations with words, in other words the keyboard being very different is acutlly beneficial to those who want to be able to use qwerty and dvorak
2. That's not very different from dvorak that's what's wrong with qwerty not dvorak
3. ditto
4. agreed to some extent as most people are right handed the right hand is likely most strained from typing and using the mouse but there are left hand only variants of dvorak although to each his own.
5. Change the bindings in the program you're using etc you're learning a new layout and don't want to go the extra mile
6. what???
7.dvorak wasn't created with the intention of weird strings passionated with cmds or programming it's why there is alot a dvorak variant with programming in mind. and colemak isn't much better in that department imo hyphen certain punctuations and brackets are still far from optimal for programming etc. http://www.kaufmann.no/roland/dvorak/
i have probably enough free time to learn a new layout so i've been fancying the idea. Probably best to learn from the start as a touch typist i don't type properly, at all i reach across the keyboard and turn my hands sideways to string together characters faster as i never formally learned how to type just learned out of use. So i'm used to my strange way of typing which gets me 80-90 wpm so hardly a bad thing.
I'm comfortable with typing in both qwerty and Dvorak layouts, and my typing speed has definitely suffered for having both memorized. It doesn't bother me too much really, I can't say exactly how much slower my typing has become, but it's probably something like my old wpm being around 100 in qwerty and now it's probably 80wpm in qwerty and 70wpm in Dvorak. Hard to say, since it's been forever since I measured my typing speed.
In terms of practical usage, there's no real reason to learn Dvorak. You're not going to be typing any faster unless you're willing to completely drop qwerty (I'm not), and even then I doubt it'd be a significant increase. I'd also say that the comfort thing is mostly mental (80% placebo effect, 20% your fingers moving around less) although admittedly I do prefer typing in Dvorak.
If you want to learn it a different layout as a hobby, go for it, but don't expect it to make any big differences in your typing. That aside, knowing a non-qwerty layout's pretty fun; passwords are really easy to make if you memorize two layouts, and you can easily type out cryptograms.
I'm fully on Colemak now.. since December. I'm completely used to the layout and the best part is the comfort.. the amount that the fingers have to move is quite a bit less..
Colemak. A while ago I looked into this too and tried my hand at Dvorak, but as somebody pointed out in the thread (>6 months ago) I'm not going to be writing any novels any time soon. However, during the other keyboard layour research, I never came across Colemak. I'll put it on the list of things to try and give it a shot later in the week.
old thread, but if anybody is curious my experience is this:
always been a pretty fast qwerty typer, average around ~140 and topped out at around 150-170 on my good days (was top 20 all-time on the website typeracer for a long time)
early last year I decided to check out dvorak because i had heard good things about it. spent maybe ~2 months learning it on the side (didn't switch full-time to dvorak like most people suggest, since i needed to be able to type fast with qwerty for everyday tasks.) Ended up averaging about 100 wpm on dvorak, top speed of 120 or so.
was it worth it? probably not. it didn't really affect my qwerty speed since i never used dvorak full-time, and right now i can switch effortlessly back and forth between qwerty and dvorak. however, i still use qwerty for all normal tasks and don't really have any use for dvorak. it's a cool thing to be able to type in dvorak but not very practical as my speed is still much faster in qwerty.
On December 06 2009 17:04 Dental Floss wrote: I don't see any reason to buy a blu-ray player, I mean, none of my friends have blu-ray players, and they wouldn't be able to borrow my movies!
And besides, DVDs are just as good. Are there any tests that show people can even tell the difference???
The ironic thing is that you're being serious, and yet blu-ray is an absolutely ridiculous dead-before-it-started technology. It's completely proprietary and inferior to countless other high resolution technologies.
It may be a bit late to throw this in here, but I figured I might as well since someone dug this thread up anyway. This made me laugh...
Getting back to the topic, I started learning Dvorak and quit simply because it felt pointless for me. Aside from the actual effort required and the loss of productivity during the time you're learning the new layout, you run into the issue of hotkeys... I suppose how important this actually is largely depends on the number and type of programs you use, but for me, it was just unacceptable to be forced to use such awkward hotkeys all the time. I suppose for those that do a lot of typing, the fatigue issue is something that might need to be addressed and Dvorak certainly could do that as the layout is a bit more optimized for that purpose. I found that I personally don't type anywhere near enough to cause my fingers any fatigue so this point was moot for me.
"If it ain't broke, don't fix it." is the phrase that comes to mind. If there's a particular issue that you need addressed that Dvorak may remedy, then by all means do it. But increased comfort in this case comes with decreased comfort in other ways, such as hotkeys, learning curve and portability (if you're not always typing on your computer).
As for the typing speed issue in particular, I can't really say anything personally since I never mastered it, but I could certainly see it if someone said that they type a bit faster on Dvorak simply because it does feel like your fingers do less movement, which would probably increase your speed.
On May 17 2010 08:43 DueleR wrote: old thread, but if anybody is curious my experience is this:
always been a pretty fast qwerty typer, average around ~140 and topped out at around 150-170 on my good days (was top 20 all-time on the website typeracer for a long time)
early last year I decided to check out dvorak because i had heard good things about it. spent maybe ~2 months learning it on the side (didn't switch full-time to dvorak like most people suggest, since i needed to be able to type fast with qwerty for everyday tasks.) Ended up averaging about 100 wpm on dvorak, top speed of 120 or so.
was it worth it? probably not. it didn't really affect my qwerty speed since i never used dvorak full-time, and right now i can switch effortlessly back and forth between qwerty and dvorak. however, i still use qwerty for all normal tasks and don't really have any use for dvorak. it's a cool thing to be able to type in dvorak but not very practical as my speed is still much faster in qwerty.
You've been typing on QWERTY for how many years now? Dvorak for 2 months off an on?
On May 17 2010 08:50 Liquid_Turbo wrote: You've been typing on QWERTY for how many years now? Dvorak for 2 months off an on?
What do you expect?
Well this is one of the major issues with the switch. Despite any level of optimization, ultimately experience and familiarity play a huge role. "Better" is not necessarily better once you take this into account. What comes to my mind is NalRa with his ball mouse. We would all regard it as silly, inferior technology, but switching obviously didn't make sense to him because the learning curve to get familiar with this new, "better" technology and loss of performance during this period was simply not worth it for him to invest for benefits that may or may not be there for him.
You've been typing on QWERTY for how many years now? Dvorak for 2 months off an on?
What do you expect?
I mean 2 months is around the time it took me to become familiar with the layout and reach my top speed. I typed with dvorak for a good 6-8 months after that, and could never break 120ish wpm. Hence why I'm back to exclusively qwerty.
Obviously, I can't say for sure that Dvorak is not "better" in the sense that I might have a higher wpm now if I had started with Dvorak when I first started using computers. But that's something I'll never know the answer to, and as JinMaikuel pointed out above, I just don't feel it's worth it to sink more time into Dvorak when I already type fast on Qwerty and probably won't ever exceed that speed in Dvorak.
I picked up Dvorak a couple of years ago for fun, and haven't bothered to switch back to Qwerty, just because there wasn't any need to. I only type in Qwerty if I use someone else's computer, which is hardly ever; and besides, it's hard to completely unlearn Qwerty. If I need to type for extended periods of time on someone else's computer, I just change the regional settings and change them back when I'm done... unless I dislike the person.
I'm not sure I'd recommend learning it for the supposed benefits, because as mentioned before, the learning curve would probably make it less worthwhile, but if you find it amusing or are interested in lifehacks, give it a go.
Of course, now that I've gotten the Dvorak layout for SC hotkeys engraved in my skull, I won't be switching back to Qwerty anytime soon...
dvorak's a waste of time. maybe if i want to spend months of painfully slow typing to get back to my qwerty speed, i'll consider it. actually i did try it, but then i ran into a little problem where the rest of the world is using qwerty which ended my dvorak dip.
i don't really understand the benefits tbh, maybe you might type a little faster (questionable statement at best), but i don't understand the discomfort argument at all. i don't get tired typing all day, and this was before my fingers became strong through getting faster at rubik's cube. now they are substantially stronger, especially my index fingers (which probably do the majority of movement on the keyboard considering their placement). So I think a little stretching won't hurt =)
On May 17 2010 11:51 JeeJee wrote: dvorak's a waste of time. maybe if i want to spend months of painfully slow typing to get back to my qwerty speed, i'll consider it. actually i did try it, but then i ran into a little problem where the rest of the world is using qwerty which ended my dvorak dip.
i don't really understand the benefits tbh, maybe you might type a little faster (questionable statement at best), but i don't understand the discomfort argument at all. i don't get tired typing all day, and this was before my fingers became strong through getting faster at rubik's cube. now they are substantially stronger, especially my index fingers (which probably do the majority of movement on the keyboard considering their placement). So I think a little stretching won't hurt =)
You're looking at the wrong benefits. Learning Dvorak to type faster isn't worth it since by the time you realize that it exists qwerty is probably already ingrained to the extent that it's simply not worth the effort to unlearn, which you need if you really want maximum typing speed.
Comfort-wise, people who type in Dvorak will tell you that it's more comfortable, but a good part of it is just to justify the time they spent in making the transition. It's definitely more comfortable than typing in qwerty, but not by a noticeable amount, and definitely not enough to justify the months spent re-learning how to type.
So what are the benefits? Knowing how to type on a keyboard layout that many people don't even know exist. It's like learning Klingon or Elvish. Ultimately useless and geeky, but still fun to know.
...Now I feel dorky about learning Dvorak, since I wouldn't even consider bothering to learn Klingon or Elvish due to the geekiness involved. Still, it's fun to watch people try to type on your computer and having no idea why the keys are all wrong.
it is quite possible to learn dvorak / colemak while still typing in qwerty. Although I never actually learned dvorak to a full extent, I did spend 30 minutes a day for a month typing in dvorak and was able to reach 40wpm while never confusing myself on a qwerty keyboard. Take it at a slow pace as fun little side hobby (like reading a few pages of a novel before going to bed) and you will make progress without having it interfere with your daily life.
EPT
