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On December 05 2009 07:07 ghostWriter wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2009 06:59 Foucault wrote:On December 05 2009 06:52 Biff The Understudy wrote:On December 05 2009 06:47 Foucault wrote:On December 05 2009 06:34 GoTuNk! wrote:
I am happy the military took over, even though they screw up later. What was before that was way worse, and was not gonna get any better. Well I assume you weren't very old when Pinochet was in power but I could be wrong. So maybe you didn't have to endure the tough times and see more of the possible "good" sides? Well, we had a discourse in France before the second world war which was "plutôt Hitler que le front populaire" (better Hitler than the Front Populaire, which was the first left side French governement, which introduced first holidays, 8 hours work/day etc etc etc, and which was very very very much hated by the bourgeoisie and the right wingers in general). Maybe Pinochet was not Hitler, but it's not unusual that some people prefer fascism to any kinnd of socialism. I guess that's true. People who are poor and have to make ends meet daily are more prone to seek answers in socialism/communism, which of course is quite natural because the wealth becomes divided etc. My issue with communism in general is not the actual ideology per se but the fact that it will never work due to the human nature. Greed and egoistic agendas will always prevail, sad but true. Capitalism also gives people an incentive to strive for higher education as a means to make money which as a whole makes society more intelligent, but in the end it's always at the expense of the people who for some reasons can't educate themselves and make money. So the obvious downfall with capitalism is the big differences in standards of living. Also the fact that people who already have a lot of money and power use it to promote their own progeny and keep others down. There's a ton of people who are in ivy league schools that don't deserve to be there, simply because their parents are rich or powerful. Just look at George W. Bush. There are many times when your connections and your status are more important than your abilities and your accomplishments. However, in general, capitalism does tend to reward those with ideas, abilities and accomplishments.
Yep. Money equals power, and the corridors of power are unfortunately often times hidden from the "common people". We don't know much of what is going on in the white house but rest assured that the people in power stay in power, and so does their friends and family. And the reason they stay in power is because they have connections and money.
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On December 05 2009 07:12 Foucault wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2009 07:07 ghostWriter wrote:On December 05 2009 06:59 Foucault wrote:On December 05 2009 06:52 Biff The Understudy wrote:On December 05 2009 06:47 Foucault wrote:On December 05 2009 06:34 GoTuNk! wrote:
I am happy the military took over, even though they screw up later. What was before that was way worse, and was not gonna get any better. Well I assume you weren't very old when Pinochet was in power but I could be wrong. So maybe you didn't have to endure the tough times and see more of the possible "good" sides? Well, we had a discourse in France before the second world war which was "plutôt Hitler que le front populaire" (better Hitler than the Front Populaire, which was the first left side French governement, which introduced first holidays, 8 hours work/day etc etc etc, and which was very very very much hated by the bourgeoisie and the right wingers in general). Maybe Pinochet was not Hitler, but it's not unusual that some people prefer fascism to any kinnd of socialism. I guess that's true. People who are poor and have to make ends meet daily are more prone to seek answers in socialism/communism, which of course is quite natural because the wealth becomes divided etc. My issue with communism in general is not the actual ideology per se but the fact that it will never work due to the human nature. Greed and egoistic agendas will always prevail, sad but true. Capitalism also gives people an incentive to strive for higher education as a means to make money which as a whole makes society more intelligent, but in the end it's always at the expense of the people who for some reasons can't educate themselves and make money. So the obvious downfall with capitalism is the big differences in standards of living. Also the fact that people who already have a lot of money and power use it to promote their own progeny and keep others down. There's a ton of people who are in ivy league schools that don't deserve to be there, simply because their parents are rich or powerful. Just look at George W. Bush. There are many times when your connections and your status are more important than your abilities and your accomplishments. However, in general, capitalism does tend to reward those with ideas, abilities and accomplishments. Yep. Money equals power, and the corridors of power are unfortunately often times hidden from the "common people". We don't know much of what is going on in the white house but rest assured that the people in power stay in power, and so does their friends and family. And the reason they stay in power is because they have connections and money.
Yeah, this is why I don't believe in democracy. A choice between two candidates that are very similar for the most part isn't much of a choice at all. All the rhetoric used turn out to be shams in the end anyway. I can't believe that so many people believed in "change". But then again, the people who voted for him probably knew nothing about Obama's positions during the campaign and are little more than vaguely familiar, if they are aware at all, about his actions now.
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France8165 Posts
On December 05 2009 06:59 Foucault wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2009 06:52 Biff The Understudy wrote:On December 05 2009 06:47 Foucault wrote:On December 05 2009 06:34 GoTuNk! wrote:
I am happy the military took over, even though they screw up later. What was before that was way worse, and was not gonna get any better. Well I assume you weren't very old when Pinochet was in power but I could be wrong. So maybe you didn't have to endure the tough times and see more of the possible "good" sides? Well, we had a discourse in France before the second world war which was "plutôt Hitler que le front populaire" (better Hitler than the Front Populaire, which was the first left side French governement, which introduced first holidays, 8 hours work/day etc etc etc, and which was very very very much hated by the bourgeoisie and the right wingers in general). Maybe Pinochet was not Hitler, but it's not unusual that some people prefer fascism to any kinnd of socialism. I guess that's true. People who are poor and have to make ends meet daily are more prone to seek answers in socialism/communism, which of course is quite natural because the wealth becomes divided etc. My issue with communism in general is not the actual ideology per se but the fact that it will never work due to the human nature. Greed and egoistic agendas will always prevail, sad but true. Capitalism also gives people an incentive to strive for higher education as a means to make money which as a whole makes society more intelligent, but in the end it's always at the expense of the people who for some reasons can't educate themselves and make money. So the obvious downfall with capitalism is the big differences in standards of living.
I have more faith in humanity than you :-)
PS: and communism is not something which "work" or "doesn't work". Read my dialogue with Caller about what Communism is.
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On December 05 2009 07:24 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2009 06:59 Foucault wrote:On December 05 2009 06:52 Biff The Understudy wrote:On December 05 2009 06:47 Foucault wrote:On December 05 2009 06:34 GoTuNk! wrote:
I am happy the military took over, even though they screw up later. What was before that was way worse, and was not gonna get any better. Well I assume you weren't very old when Pinochet was in power but I could be wrong. So maybe you didn't have to endure the tough times and see more of the possible "good" sides? Well, we had a discourse in France before the second world war which was "plutôt Hitler que le front populaire" (better Hitler than the Front Populaire, which was the first left side French governement, which introduced first holidays, 8 hours work/day etc etc etc, and which was very very very much hated by the bourgeoisie and the right wingers in general). Maybe Pinochet was not Hitler, but it's not unusual that some people prefer fascism to any kinnd of socialism. I guess that's true. People who are poor and have to make ends meet daily are more prone to seek answers in socialism/communism, which of course is quite natural because the wealth becomes divided etc. My issue with communism in general is not the actual ideology per se but the fact that it will never work due to the human nature. Greed and egoistic agendas will always prevail, sad but true. Capitalism also gives people an incentive to strive for higher education as a means to make money which as a whole makes society more intelligent, but in the end it's always at the expense of the people who for some reasons can't educate themselves and make money. So the obvious downfall with capitalism is the big differences in standards of living. I have more faith in humanity than you :-) PS: and communism is not something which "work" or "doesn't work". Read my dialogue with Caller about what Communism is.
I think he's aware. I think he just meant to say "the viability of communism in theory and in practice" in the way it was understood and interpreted, not the way Marx meant it.
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On December 05 2009 06:36 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2009 06:34 GoTuNk! wrote:
I am so happy free market (at least on some extent) is implemented on my country I can't even begin to describe it. Most of you people have no idea at all what living under statism is; having not food to buy, money devaluating every day, an almost ongoing civil war.
Pinochet is an ass for killing people and stealing money, left wing politicians take advantage of that to stay on power (even though they are not as left wing hardcore as they used to be, and just accepted the fact that the market did worked from the 70's to 90's and therefore has continued till today). People forget that in 20 years a non-working economy got fixed into what it is today, because Pinochet dirtied up what was done with his crimes.
Moreover, foreigners think Allende was some kind of hero. He was not; he fucked up my country and promoted social class fights leading to a an inevitable civil war.
I am happy the military took over, even though they screw up later. What was before that was way worse, and was not gonna get any better. Ouuuch. You see, what I meant? Depends the ideological position of the person you would ask.
haha had to step away again
I have no problems with that actually. It comes down to many different factors, in fact it's two different sets of circumstances. There's nothing wrong with having your basic needs met, but it's something else to be infringing on others.
Getting society to behave like the cells of the body is ongoing. If my stomach is taking excessive oxygen supply from my other organs I'd be worried too, likewise any forms of lopsided distribution model.
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EPT
