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I saw this story on another forum I frequent.
Noah Biorkman was diagnosed with neuroblastoma (type of cancer which mainly afflicts young children) when he was three years old back in 07. He's now in hospice care and in the final stages of his life. Doctors and family aren't expecting him to live past Christmas.
From what I've read, when he was asked what he wanted for Christmas he simply stated "lots of Christmas cards".
I'm going to send mine off tomorrow and just wanted to post this here in case anyone else wanted to participate. I know there's a lot of really creative people on this forum so hopefully we can provide him with a lot of smiles.
Below is a rough draft of mine before I add color, glitter, pop out stuff. It's pretty horrible I know but hopefully some of you guys can show the same kind of awesomeness you did in the draw ur way across a bridge/pumpkin carving thread. :D
His address is in the sources below.
sources:
http://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/index.ssf/2009/11/thousands_send_early_christmas.html
http://www.zimbio.com/Noah Biorkman/articles/bJCw9GM08Eq/Noah Biorkman Dying 5 Year Old Gets Early
http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/21522646/detail.html
"Noah Biorkman has been fighting cancer since he was 3 years old. He was diagnosed with neuroblastoma in February of 2007, went into remission six months later but relapsed in September of 2008.
Noah is currently in hospice care and after his family asked for help in making this Christmas special for him by sending cards, they were overwhelmed with the response.
Thousands of cards and gifts have been pouring into the Biorkman’s mailbox from strangers around the world.
Noah had received 8,000 cards and gifts in the mail in just two days.
Wednesday, Local 4 was there as Noah opened some of the gifts with his family.
The 5-year-old said an angel figurine ornament was his favorite because it reminded him of where he’ll soon be.
“In heaven, and I’m going to be an angel,” Noah said.
His parents, Diana and Scott, said they have come to grips that their son won’t make it until Christmas Day in December.
“We made sure he got to have Christmas … my family dropped everything, they’re bringing the food, everybody’s coming and we’re all excited to spend Christmas with him this week,” Diana said. “His time is very short.”
Santa along with the South Lyon Fire Department visited Noah Friday at the family’s home.
Diana said she is asking that instead of sending gifts to Noah, send $1 in a card to the family and they will donate it to the University Of Michigan neuroblastoma research center and the Michigan Make A Wish Chapter.
Cards can be sent to:
Noah Biorkman
1141 Fountain View Circle
South Lyon, MI, 48178"
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I will send one. I am already sending for church so another one wont hurt :D
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awwwwww.... i'll start working on mine. 
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So sad. This is the kind of thing that really makes you realize that there is no benevolent man in the sky looking down on us all. The bitter irony is that times like this are when people paradoxically cling especially close to those ideas.
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On November 09 2009 07:36 Japakazol wrote:
So sad. This is the kind of thing that really makes you realize that there is no benevolent man in the sky looking down on us all. The bitter irony is that times like this are when people paradoxically cling especially close to those ideas.
I was just thinking that actually
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Please don't make this another religion thread.
I'll definitely send one.
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If I were dying. The last thing I wanted would be christmas cards...
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On November 09 2009 08:08 Rotodyne wrote:
I have no soul.
this guy makes me mad.
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On November 09 2009 08:09 Manit0u wrote:
If I were dying. The last thing I wanted would be christmas cards...
but then again...you're not an innocent 5 year old who's felt nothing but pain for two years.
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On November 09 2009 08:08 Rotodyne wrote:
I have no soul.
Then don't suck us into your misery. Go find some other site to troll on.
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I would obviously never send that to the kid, and everything in my post was 100% true. I see no problem :/
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What did the sad boy who'd been fighting cancer since he was 3 years old. But went into remission six months later but relapsed in September of 2008 get for christmas?
+ Show Spoiler +AIDS
A KICKASS CHRISTMAS CARD!
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God thats terrible. Poor child, no one that young should die.
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Never thought a thread with such a positive objective could get derailed so fast lol
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On November 09 2009 08:14 Rotodyne wrote:
I would obviously never send that to the kid, and everything in my post was 100% true. I see no problem :/
You don't see an issue with posting something 100% irrelevant to the topic at hand that you know would piss other people off?
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am i the only one who actually feel a huge pain in the heart (literally) when something like this happens? dammit... cant believe someone makes fun of it.
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South Lyon? The kid lives like 25 minutes north of me. Poor kid, to only live 5 years while most of that time was spent in pain and misery.
Shame this thread had to be ruined by a heaven/God discussion. It's pretty sad and pathetic that that's the first thing that comes to your head when you read the OP.
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Osaka27149 Posts
On November 09 2009 08:14 Rotodyne wrote:
I would obviously never send that to the kid, and everything in my post was 100% true. I see no problem :/
You didn't send it to the kid, but you sent it to everyone who reads this thread, thus robbing them of any good feelings that may have come from it.
Uncool.
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On November 09 2009 08:14 Rotodyne wrote:
I would obviously never send that to the kid, and everything in my post was 100% true. I see no problem :/
Seriously dude? Troll much
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On November 09 2009 08:21 selboN wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2009 08:14 Rotodyne wrote:
I would obviously never send that to the kid, and everything in my post was 100% true. I see no problem :/ You don't see an issue with posting something 100% irrelevant to the topic at hand that you know would piss other people off?
The situation sucks for the kid for sure and I've every intention of sending him a card (as everyone should imo since it has potential major impact and requires so minimal effort), but as far as this thread goes, the fact is that a lot of the people complaining about his response are the same people who said "But wait, there's more!" when Billy Mays died, etc etc. There's no difference here aside from age. It's just people falsifying sensitivity for whatever reason.
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Well hopefully the people "falsifying sensitivity" will go far enough in their endeavor to walk down the street to the local post office.
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Life sucks and is unfair i think Rotodyne is right even if his "joke" was the perfect example of inappropriate dark humor.
Poor kid indeed. News like that always make me tilt.
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On November 09 2009 08:26 selboN wrote:
Well hopefully the people "falsifying sensitivity" will go far enough in their endeavor to walk down the street to the local post office.
Agreed.
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On November 09 2009 08:23 meeple wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2009 08:14 Rotodyne wrote:
I would obviously never send that to the kid, and everything in my post was 100% true. I see no problem :/ Seriously dude? Troll much
Honestly, the story is very sad -- but I have a hard time actually feeling terrible inside, let alone getting pissed off at a minor, inappropriate post about it.
you guys should chill out. if you care, write a card -- if you don't, just don't post in the thread.
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And when you're done with your precious christmas card, maybe you could send some food to starving kids in the third world countries?
I'm not trying to be an ass, I just hate small stories highlighted like this. Yeah, few kids have the energy to say that they want christmas cards before they die, but other kids with cancer die every day. It sure is sad for little Noah and his family and send that card if you want to, but please send a card to every other child with cancer in the world. Just cos this kid reached the newspapers it doesn't mean he is worth more.
Now, if you find this offensive, please explain why and don't just call me an ass.
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IMO you guys are overreacting to what Rotodyne said. You don't share his sense of humour, fine, but this thread is gonna derail so fast if everyone is gonna comment on it. Ignore it and move along if you don't like black comedy.
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On November 09 2009 08:40 XsebT wrote:
And when you're done with your precious christmas card, maybe you could send some food to starving kids in the third world countries?
I'm not trying to be an ass, I just hate small stories highlighted like this. Yeah, few kids have the energy to say that they want christmas cards before they die, but other kids with cancer die every day. It sure is sad for little Noah and his family and send that card if you want to, but please send a card to every other child with cancer in the world. Just cos this kid reached the newspapers it doesn't mean he is worth more.
Now, if you find this offensive, please explain why and don't just call me an ass.
You should post that in other threads on other forums isolating sending a card to this kid, or maybe become a missionary. There's a difference between a random act of kindness and being Mother Teresa.
Sup?
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On November 09 2009 08:14 Rotodyne wrote:
I would obviously never send that to the kid, and everything in my post was 100% true. I see no problem :/
It's not so obvious.
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can someone just delete Rotodyne's post so that people can stop arguing over it?
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On November 09 2009 08:40 XsebT wrote:
And when you're done with your precious christmas card, maybe you could send some food to starving kids in the third world countries?
I'm not trying to be an ass, I just hate small stories highlighted like this. Yeah, few kids have the energy to say that they want christmas cards before they die, but other kids with cancer die every day. It sure is sad for little Noah and his family and send that card if you want to, but please send a card to every other child with cancer in the world. Just cos this kid reached the newspapers it doesn't mean he is worth more.
Now, if you find this offensive, please explain why and don't just call me an ass.
More power to you if you can help others with food, money, clothing, etc. This thread is about helping one child with one wish. It doesn't take much to send a Christmas card man. A Christmas card...come on.
Like someone said earlier, If you feel cmpelled to contribute then feel free to do so. If you don't then just move along.
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On November 09 2009 08:42 Cyrkulous wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2009 08:40 XsebT wrote:
And when you're done with your precious christmas card, maybe you could send some food to starving kids in the third world countries?
I'm not trying to be an ass, I just hate small stories highlighted like this. Yeah, few kids have the energy to say that they want christmas cards before they die, but other kids with cancer die every day. It sure is sad for little Noah and his family and send that card if you want to, but please send a card to every other child with cancer in the world. Just cos this kid reached the newspapers it doesn't mean he is worth more.
Now, if you find this offensive, please explain why and don't just call me an ass. You should post that in other threads on other forums isolating sending a card to this kid, or maybe become a missionary. There's a difference between a random act of kindness and being Mother Teresa. Sup?
Well, Earth isn't doing well, and "random acts of kindness" isn't really helping other than Noah and youself; helping youself in the sence that you probably think you just saved the World by taking out 15 mins of your time. Your post is also confusing me, since I would much rather be Mother Teresa than doing "a random act of kindness".
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On November 09 2009 08:54 XsebT wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2009 08:42 Cyrkulous wrote:On November 09 2009 08:40 XsebT wrote:
And when you're done with your precious christmas card, maybe you could send some food to starving kids in the third world countries?
I'm not trying to be an ass, I just hate small stories highlighted like this. Yeah, few kids have the energy to say that they want christmas cards before they die, but other kids with cancer die every day. It sure is sad for little Noah and his family and send that card if you want to, but please send a card to every other child with cancer in the world. Just cos this kid reached the newspapers it doesn't mean he is worth more.
Now, if you find this offensive, please explain why and don't just call me an ass. You should post that in other threads on other forums isolating sending a card to this kid, or maybe become a missionary. There's a difference between a random act of kindness and being Mother Teresa. Sup? Well, Earth isn't doing well, and "random acts of kindness" isn't really helping other than Noah and youself; helping youself in the sence that you probably think you just saved the World by taking out 15 mins of your time. Your post is also confusing me, since I would much rather be Mother Teresa than doing "a random act of kindness".
Then please, by all means, do so. I admire your thinking and wish you the best in your endeavors (assuming you plan on acting on it rather than just making a pointless passive aggressive statement), and if the rest of us had that sort of motivation, the world WOULD be a better place. However, none of us think we're saving the world by doing this kid a favor. We think we're doing just that.
Anyways 
See Twisted's post 2 posts below.
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Netherlands13554 Posts
Enough bashing on Rotodyne, let's keep this on topic people.
Post pictures of your christmas cards!
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I can believe kids like ROtodyne and Xesbt are posting in this thread. Sure what you might have to say is true but is it really necessary to fucking say it in a thread like this?
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On November 09 2009 08:47 statix wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2009 08:40 XsebT wrote:
And when you're done with your precious christmas card, maybe you could send some food to starving kids in the third world countries?
I'm not trying to be an ass, I just hate small stories highlighted like this. Yeah, few kids have the energy to say that they want christmas cards before they die, but other kids with cancer die every day. It sure is sad for little Noah and his family and send that card if you want to, but please send a card to every other child with cancer in the world. Just cos this kid reached the newspapers it doesn't mean he is worth more.
Now, if you find this offensive, please explain why and don't just call me an ass. More power to you if you can help others with food, money, clothing, etc. This thread is about helping one child with one wish. It doesn't take much to send a Christmas card man. A Christmas card...come on. Like someone said earlier, If you feel cmpelled to contribute then feel free to do so. If you don't then just move along.
To the last part of your post: I'm expressing my opinion like everyone should, not to say that I'm right or you're wrong, but to discuss a topic that I find important regarding people's general way of thinking.
-
I'm gonna leave it at this, as people find it off topic, sorry for bothering you and good luck with your cards. 
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On November 09 2009 08:08 Rotodyne wrote:
I have no soul.
someone needs to grow the f--- up. please keep your pathetic life out of TL or at least get one, that's really unnecessary, probably a 12 year old.
--edit
sorry for bringing it up again, couldn't help but to immediately respond to that when i first saw it. It's sad that we (people) forget about all the unfortunate children/kids/teenagers that have to go through with this and in some cases, pass away.. but this can only BENEFIT our understanding and respect for this touchy subject.. not just another child that died from a disease, but another angel. Whatever God that is out there watching over us.. God bless every child that goes through this.
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On November 09 2009 09:02 XsebT wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2009 08:47 statix wrote:On November 09 2009 08:40 XsebT wrote:
And when you're done with your precious christmas card, maybe you could send some food to starving kids in the third world countries?
I'm not trying to be an ass, I just hate small stories highlighted like this. Yeah, few kids have the energy to say that they want christmas cards before they die, but other kids with cancer die every day. It sure is sad for little Noah and his family and send that card if you want to, but please send a card to every other child with cancer in the world. Just cos this kid reached the newspapers it doesn't mean he is worth more.
Now, if you find this offensive, please explain why and don't just call me an ass. More power to you if you can help others with food, money, clothing, etc. This thread is about helping one child with one wish. It doesn't take much to send a Christmas card man. A Christmas card...come on. Like someone said earlier, If you feel cmpelled to contribute then feel free to do so. If you don't then just move along. To the last part of your post: I'm expressing my opinion like everyone should, not to say that I'm right or you're wrong, but do discuss a topic that I find important regarding people's general way of thinking.
Blog imo.
Back on topic, is a snow man with stick fingers creepy? The one I'm working on looks like something out of an evil claymation video. Maybe I'll give him some mittens.
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I apologize for my post, I didn't realize he was already taken care of and I impulsely posted because I was disturbed.
I give the TL community respect for not going along with that douche bag.
I am making flyers tonight for a college project, and I will make a card.
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When can we start to send one ( not sarcastic) ??
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On November 09 2009 09:14 axel wrote:
When can we start to send one ( not sarcastic) ??
asap...they've already received a ton but i think they're celebrating Christmas next weekend (november 14-15).
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On November 09 2009 09:02 XsebT wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2009 08:47 statix wrote:On November 09 2009 08:40 XsebT wrote:
And when you're done with your precious christmas card, maybe you could send some food to starving kids in the third world countries?
I'm not trying to be an ass, I just hate small stories highlighted like this. Yeah, few kids have the energy to say that they want christmas cards before they die, but other kids with cancer die every day. It sure is sad for little Noah and his family and send that card if you want to, but please send a card to every other child with cancer in the world. Just cos this kid reached the newspapers it doesn't mean he is worth more.
Now, if you find this offensive, please explain why and don't just call me an ass. More power to you if you can help others with food, money, clothing, etc. This thread is about helping one child with one wish. It doesn't take much to send a Christmas card man. A Christmas card...come on. Like someone said earlier, If you feel cmpelled to contribute then feel free to do so. If you don't then just move along. To the last part of your post: I'm expressing my opinion like everyone should, not to say that I'm right or you're wrong, but to discuss a topic that I find important regarding people's general way of thinking. - I'm gonna leave it at this, as people find it off topic, sorry for bothering you and good luck with your cards.
no, you're a dickhead, if everyone in the world thought the way you do we'd have absolutely nothing, ever. Small steps, don't expect to change the entire world. Obviously you can't do the same thing for everyone. What the fuck, this doctor chose to help this patient instead of every single other patient in the world? Oh, this lawyer has a pro bono case? Why doesn't he just go pro bono on everyone's ass? Oh ok, maybe I'll just let that kid get run the fuck over by that car that's about to hit him instead of helping him out because there's a lot of other kids getting run over every day, and I can't help
"Let's not help one person because there's lots of other people in the same situation and if we don't help ALL OF THEM then helping any one is pointless." No offense. This is the kind of immature, stupid philosophy that high school kids who want to show off how badass and pessimistic and cynical they are employ so that people will be like "aww yeah that motherfucker is a badass he knows what's up in the world."
I'm really failing to see what you find that is so "important" to bring up about "people's general way of thinking" - that we should all just be idle and sit on our hands because we're waiting to have the capacity to help EVERY SINGLE PERSON instead of just those we can?
Well, Earth isn't doing well, and "random acts of kindness" isn't really helping other than Noah and youself; helping youself in the sence that you probably think you just saved the World by taking out 15 mins of your time. Your post is also confusing me, since I would much rather be Mother Teresa than doing "a random act of kindness".
Nobody thinks they're saving the world. Seriously what the fuck, are you like 16 years old? Still in your formative stages? Or just a grown man-baby? People want to do a nice act for this kid and you shit on them talking about how they're not saving the world and there's lots of other kids. And what's the most super awesomest most ultimate charity or activity to put effort into? Since you seem to be ranking it these things by their "value." Supplying potable water to Africa? AIDs-treatment funding in Africa? Maybe global warming? Oh, I can't send this kid a Christmas card cause I'm so badass and I'm aware of the fact that I'm not saving the world, all these fools with the veil over their eyes don't know my ultimate truth
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Might actually do this. It's sad to hear that someone is terminally ill, especially a child. I wish the best for his family though.
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On November 09 2009 07:36 Japakazol wrote:
So sad. This is the kind of thing that really makes you realize that there is no benevolent man in the sky looking down on us all. The bitter irony is that times like this are when people paradoxically cling especially close to those ideas.
Clearly you just disproved God's existence. Your logic is flawless. Well done, sir.
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Aww this is sad, poor kid. I hope he's flooded with letters to read to keep him busy before he dies.
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On November 09 2009 07:36 Japakazol wrote:
So sad. This is the kind of thing that really makes you realize that there is no benevolent man in the sky looking down on us all. The bitter irony is that times like this are when people paradoxically cling especially close to those ideas.
My thoughts exactly, at least the kid is very confident that he'll go to heaven...ignorance is bliss imo
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On November 09 2009 08:21 fabiano wrote:
am i the only one who actually feel a huge pain in the heart (literally) when something like this happens? dammit... cant believe someone makes fun of it.
no
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Netherlands13554 Posts
Cleaned up the topic a bit.
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am making one for me and Amber[Light]!
stuff like this makes me sad so early in the morning.
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+ Show Spoiler +On November 10 2009 22:41 Ganfei wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2009 09:02 XsebT wrote:On November 09 2009 08:47 statix wrote:On November 09 2009 08:40 XsebT wrote:
And when you're done with your precious christmas card, maybe you could send some food to starving kids in the third world countries?
I'm not trying to be an ass, I just hate small stories highlighted like this. Yeah, few kids have the energy to say that they want christmas cards before they die, but other kids with cancer die every day. It sure is sad for little Noah and his family and send that card if you want to, but please send a card to every other child with cancer in the world. Just cos this kid reached the newspapers it doesn't mean he is worth more.
Now, if you find this offensive, please explain why and don't just call me an ass. More power to you if you can help others with food, money, clothing, etc. This thread is about helping one child with one wish. It doesn't take much to send a Christmas card man. A Christmas card...come on. Like someone said earlier, If you feel cmpelled to contribute then feel free to do so. If you don't then just move along. To the last part of your post: I'm expressing my opinion like everyone should, not to say that I'm right or you're wrong, but to discuss a topic that I find important regarding people's general way of thinking. - I'm gonna leave it at this, as people find it off topic, sorry for bothering you and good luck with your cards. no, you're a dickhead, if everyone in the world thought the way you do we'd have absolutely nothing, ever. Small steps, don't expect to change the entire world. Obviously you can't do the same thing for everyone. What the fuck, this doctor chose to help this patient instead of every single other patient in the world? Oh, this lawyer has a pro bono case? Why doesn't he just go pro bono on everyone's ass? Oh ok, maybe I'll just let that kid get run the fuck over by that car that's about to hit him instead of helping him out because there's a lot of other kids getting run over every day, and I can't help "Let's not help one person because there's lots of other people in the same situation and if we don't help ALL OF THEM then helping any one is pointless." No offense. This is the kind of immature, stupid philosophy that high school kids who want to show off how badass and pessimistic and cynical they are employ so that people will be like "aww yeah that motherfucker is a badass he knows what's up in the world." I'm really failing to see what you find that is so "important" to bring up about "people's general way of thinking" - that we should all just be idle and sit on our hands because we're waiting to have the capacity to help EVERY SINGLE PERSON instead of just those we can? Show nested quote +
Well, Earth isn't doing well, and "random acts of kindness" isn't really helping other than Noah and youself; helping youself in the sence that you probably think you just saved the World by taking out 15 mins of your time. Your post is also confusing me, since I would much rather be Mother Teresa than doing "a random act of kindness".
Nobody thinks they're saving the world. Seriously what the fuck, are you like 16 years old? Still in your formative stages? Or just a grown man-baby? People want to do a nice act for this kid and you shit on them talking about how they're not saving the world and there's lots of other kids. And what's the most super awesomest most ultimate charity or activity to put effort into? Since you seem to be ranking it these things by their "value." Supplying potable water to Africa? AIDs-treatment funding in Africa? Maybe global warming? Oh, I can't send this kid a Christmas card cause I'm so badass and I'm aware of the fact that I'm not saving the world, all these fools with the veil over their eyes don't know my ultimate truth
^ This sums up exactly what i wanted to say.
Anyways i hope the little guy gets to be happy for the remainder of his life. Even if that means to believe in god or santa or whatever.
Keep up the good work everyone sending him cards.
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I'm really busy, but if someone wants to start a TL.net one in photoshop that people can download, add a comment & signature to, and re-upload, that'd be neat.
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On November 09 2009 08:14 Rotodyne wrote:
I would obviously never send that to the kid, and everything in my post was 100% true. I see no problem :/
douchecanoe
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There are thousands of dying children, with limited time. This is silly...
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You know those one liner cards some people send?
TL should put together one, Pony Express and all, Christmas theme, then when he flips the page, he sees
"www.teamliquid.net"
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what about a 3 year old with cancer is inspirational?
the fact that a 3 year old is stricken with cancer is either the result of his mom having a drug/mayonaisse addiction or that his family lives near a power plant or that he was given the h1n1 vaccine (which is poison).
if he is one of the 1 in a million "unlucky" ones who "just happened to have cancer cells" as a three year old then tough cookies man... send him some cards if you think PITY is a virtue.
pity only multiplies suffering in the world and gives the agent (ie he who pities) a false sense of "moral correctness".
many people with cancer are going to die alone this xmas. the boy is only relevant because some local news channel made a call and now they use "the sick kid" as a focal point in between terror alerts.
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On November 11 2009 18:25 Piste wrote:
There are thousands of dying children, with limited time. This is silly...
Yes, there are thousands and no one is expecting you to send a card to every one of them. But sending a card to one is better than sending a card to none. And people don't turn into saints overnight, but maybe if you send one card, it'll put you into the habit of doing nice things for random people more often, and one day you'll be a better person for it.
btw, from one of the links in the OP:
Diana said she is asking that instead of sending gifts to Noah, send $1 in a card to the family and they will donate it to the University Of Michigan neuroblastoma research center and the Michigan Make A Wish Chapter.
I think this would be a nice thing to do, if you're already going to be sending a card.
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It boggles my mind how you people can apply this stupid, immature philosophy of "everyone has problems so fuck any individual." I really want to know how the fuck you think that anything will ever ever EVER get done ANYWHERE with that kind of attitude. I'm not talking about sending a kid a christmas card, I'm talking about, for example, supplying potable water to one African village, when there are 2000 other ones. Providing AIDs relief to one city, when there are hundreds of others. ICRC aid to Sri Lanka in the recent Tamil shutdown. Anything, basically. Your "approach" is apparently to simply sit around and do absolutely nothing for anyone until we can do something for EVERYONE. That's just stupid, immature, uneducated, ignorant, and It infuriates me that you also seem to believe that this is some sort of revelatory statement that's coming from your mouth, like the people who are donating are somehow unaware that what they are doing isn't going to save anyone, or help the other kids who are in need. Yeah, you smug cock, they know it already. You aren't pulling the veil back from anyone's eyes.
if he is one of the 1 in a million "unlucky" ones who "just happened to have cancer cells" as a three year old then tough cookies man... send him some cards if you think PITY is a virtue.
pity only multiplies suffering in the world and gives the agent (ie he who pities) a false sense of "moral correctness".
???? What the fuck? Honestly? This sounds like something that dipshit Emile Cioran would have written. Get over yourself. What's your solution? Let the kid die? Let every kid die until there are so few left that we can help everyone at once? Maybe you can go up to his room, let him know it's "tough cookies man," sorry I'd help you but giving you a card would only multiply the suffering in the world, sorry kid.
It infuriates me that you also seem to believe that this is some sort of revelatory statement that's coming from your mouth, like the people who are donating are somehow unaware that what they are doing isn't going to save anyone, or help the other kids who are in need. Yeah, you smug fuck, they know it already. You aren't pulling the veil back from anyone's eyes. Your cynical jackass attitude is woefully inexperienced and reminds me of armchair anthropology. Shit is just your own stupid personal theory based on a complete lack of any sort of personal interaction with anyone in these kinds of situations. People aren't sending in cards to bolster some false sense of virtuous moral correctness. They're doing it because it's an easy opportunity to do something nice for someone else.
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seriously i rly want to send him a card
dunno how =/
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Ganfei, you just summed up everything I wanted to say right there
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On November 09 2009 07:36 Japakazol wrote:
So sad. This is the kind of thing that really makes you realize that there is no benevolent man in the sky looking down on us all. The bitter irony is that times like this are when people paradoxically cling especially close to those ideas.
Your opinion keep it to yourself, you don't see people praising god in every thread.
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On November 09 2009 07:36 Japakazol wrote:
So sad. This is the kind of thing that really makes you realize that there is no benevolent man in the sky looking down on us all. The bitter irony is that times like this are when people paradoxically cling especially close to those ideas.
dont be the douche that starts a religion flame war in every thread.
just shut the fuck up and keep this kid in your thoughts
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On November 12 2009 04:55 GreEny K wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2009 07:36 Japakazol wrote:
So sad. This is the kind of thing that really makes you realize that there is no benevolent man in the sky looking down on us all. The bitter irony is that times like this are when people paradoxically cling especially close to those ideas. Your opinion keep it to yourself, you don't see people praising god in every thread.
How about I don't keep it to myself? What then?
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On November 11 2009 18:57 omninmo wrote:
what about a 3 year old with cancer is inspirational?
the fact that a 3 year old is stricken with cancer is either the result of his mom having a drug/mayonaisse addiction or that his family lives near a power plant or that he was given the h1n1 vaccine (which is poison).
if he is one of the 1 in a million "unlucky" ones who "just happened to have cancer cells" as a three year old then tough cookies man... send him some cards if you think PITY is a virtue.
pity only multiplies suffering in the world and gives the agent (ie he who pities) a false sense of "moral correctness".
many people with cancer are going to die alone this xmas. the boy is only relevant because some local news channel made a call and now they use "the sick kid" as a focal point in between terror alerts.
This whole post is obviously trying to start shit.
Your first point is an assertion. You have no idea what caused the cancer.
In addition, who cares what caused the cancer? That isn't relevant because he didn't cause the cancer himself, so he is pitiable.
Pity is wrong? Pity is a derivative of empathy, which is necessary for society to survive, or at least for society to be as effective as possible.
Moreover, your assuming people who feel pity are only doing it to feel morally correct, or feel morally smug at all.
Also, how the fuck does it multiply suffering?
On the last point, yes, he was arbitrarily picked to be a focal point, but how is does that make him less worthy of our sympathy? Is it his fault he was picked? And what kind of self righteous asshole divides his emotions equally because to focus on one is too arbitrary? Do you have no friends? Because if you do you picked them based on convenience (i.e. you met them somehow) which is arbitrary.
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On November 12 2009 05:16 Japakazol wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2009 04:55 GreEny K wrote:On November 09 2009 07:36 Japakazol wrote:
So sad. This is the kind of thing that really makes you realize that there is no benevolent man in the sky looking down on us all. The bitter irony is that times like this are when people paradoxically cling especially close to those ideas. Your opinion keep it to yourself, you don't see people praising god in every thread. How about I don't keep it to myself? What then?
What are you, 5?
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On November 12 2009 05:17 never_toss wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2009 05:16 Japakazol wrote:On November 12 2009 04:55 GreEny K wrote:On November 09 2009 07:36 Japakazol wrote:
So sad. This is the kind of thing that really makes you realize that there is no benevolent man in the sky looking down on us all. The bitter irony is that times like this are when people paradoxically cling especially close to those ideas. Your opinion keep it to yourself, you don't see people praising god in every thread. How about I don't keep it to myself? What then? What are you, 5?
I'm illustrating the point that this is a forum for expression of opinions, and posting that someone should keep their opinions to themselves is about the most self-contradictory action I can imagine. I didn't troll or flame anyone, so the point is that if he doesn't like it he's going to have to figure out how to deal with that.
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The kid just wants some Christmas cards; I have no idea why any talk of religion popped into this thread.
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On November 12 2009 05:21 Japakazol wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2009 05:17 never_toss wrote:On November 12 2009 05:16 Japakazol wrote:On November 12 2009 04:55 GreEny K wrote:On November 09 2009 07:36 Japakazol wrote:
So sad. This is the kind of thing that really makes you realize that there is no benevolent man in the sky looking down on us all. The bitter irony is that times like this are when people paradoxically cling especially close to those ideas. Your opinion keep it to yourself, you don't see people praising god in every thread. How about I don't keep it to myself? What then? What are you, 5? I'm illustrating the point that this is a forum for expression of opinions, and posting that someone should keep their opinions to themselves is about the most self-contradictory action I can imagine. I didn't troll or flame anyone, so the point is that if he doesn't like it he's going to have to figure out how to deal with that.
I suggest you read this if you want to have >59 posts.
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On November 12 2009 06:12 koreasilver wrote:
The kid just wants some Christmas cards; I have no idea why any talk of religion popped into this thread.
I guess it is difficult to see how a post about Christmas, dying, angels, and heaven led to any talk of religion.
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On November 12 2009 06:30 Japakazol wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2009 06:12 koreasilver wrote:
The kid just wants some Christmas cards; I have no idea why any talk of religion popped into this thread. I guess it is difficult to see how a post about Christmas, dying, angels, and heaven led to any talk of religion.
This thread however, is about doing something nice by sending a dying boy a christmas card, your point is not insightful or original, it's just ruining the thread for no reason.
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Jesus people, this is about a kid dieing from something he can't control. not about religion or anything else. What is everyone's problem?
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On November 12 2009 06:12 koreasilver wrote:
The kid just wants some Christmas cards; I have no idea why any talk of religion popped into this thread.
Because the boy said something about wanting to be an angel when he dies or something to that effect.
What someone said earlier is true... it's always "God bless this child..." which God clearly already did... just not with the blessing they wanted (namely cancer). That's why I tend to agree that the whole God bless thing is very paradoxical when talking about a poor kid who has been suffering from cancer for x amount of years.
It's a shitty dice roll for that kid and I'll take 5 minutes out of my life to send the kid a christmas card because someone put the effort into sending this message out but yea when you say anything even remotely close to angels/god/heaven on a computer forum you're going to get a discussion on religion. That's just the way it goes sadly.
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On November 12 2009 06:30 Japakazol wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2009 06:12 koreasilver wrote:
The kid just wants some Christmas cards; I have no idea why any talk of religion popped into this thread. I guess it is difficult to see how a post about Christmas, dying, angels, and heaven led to any talk of religion.
Christmas is so much more of a cultural holiday revolving around gift giving than the death of Christ. With the heaven and angels thing, the kid is just a kid. He doesn't have any kind of solid conception in his beliefs; it's just something that he has grown up with. I don't find him wanting to be an angel in heaven much different from someone wanting to fly around in pixie dust in eternal childhood in Neverland.
I mean, his entire thing about wanting to be an angel in his afterlife shows that he really doesn't know much about his own religion anyway. You dipshits just jumped on it and ragged on with the whole trite anti-religion spiel because of the harmless words of a dying child.
You people are wretched.
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lol? send 1 dollar...
scam
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On November 09 2009 07:36 Japakazol wrote:
So sad. This is the kind of thing that really makes you realize that there is no benevolent man in the sky looking down on us all. The bitter irony is that times like this are when people paradoxically cling especially close to those ideas.
True statement... I really feel bad for the boy, I think i'll participate too.
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On November 12 2009 06:37 Frits wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2009 06:30 Japakazol wrote:On November 12 2009 06:12 koreasilver wrote:
The kid just wants some Christmas cards; I have no idea why any talk of religion popped into this thread. I guess it is difficult to see how a post about Christmas, dying, angels, and heaven led to any talk of religion. This thread however, is about doing something nice by sending a dying boy a christmas card, your point is not insightful or original, it's just ruining the thread for no reason.
for once frits doesn't not sound like an asshole
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I appreciate what some of the "trolls" are saying. XsebT and omninmo have made valid points. They've been reasonable. They're not just trying to upset you, they are speaking from a different perspective, and its worth listening to.
I don't think anyone here is saying that we should make the kid suffer. Its nice to see that people on here want to send him cards. Nice. And trivial. He's still going to die. Sorry? It's true.
???? What the fuck? Honestly? This sounds like something that dipshit Emile Cioran would have written. Get over yourself. What's your solution? Let the kid die? Let every kid die until there are so few left that we can help everyone at once? Maybe you can go up to his room, let him know it's "tough cookies man," sorry I'd help you but giving you a card would only multiply the suffering in the world, sorry kid.
Let the kid die? That's inevitable. He's going to die anyway. We're not helping that, all we're doing is flooding his mailbox with Christmas cards.
Did the kid really think this through? Does he want to spend the rest of his life reading card after card? He'll probably be bored to tears. Can he even read? Is his mother willing to spend all of her time reading cards to him that have the same general message for days on end?
Again, I think it's nice that so many people on here are sending him a card. Do it, make a card that will make the kid smile or laugh. Make something special, he's getting a lot of cards, make yours stand out. That's great. But these people we're labeling "trolls" haven't deserved it.
I would say there are better ways to help people than send this kid 93271498327 Christmas cards. With the money spent on postage you could do something worthwhile that actually helps someone in need. If 10% of the people who read about this kid send a card, how much time and money is that spent on cards and postage? How about that homeless guy you pass on the street? Google for someone who needs money for life saving surgery.
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1. send the kid cards and post your intent/success and we all share some s
2. don't send this kid a card for whatever reason & don't post. We can share s with you too.
Thats the way I think we should keep it here, maybe...?
I'm going to send a card!
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Baltimore, USA22254 Posts
Stop shitting this thread up. All of you.
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United States4796 Posts
Aw. Your card was nice. I should probably send one as well.
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Hey guys... there are a lot of us with a lot of unique skills... can we think of any way to collaborate on this maybe? Make some sort of huge, really unique, maybe techhy card? There's just such power in our numbers that I'm inspired... any ideas?
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I sometimes wonder, which is worse, to die young when you havent had the chanse to live your life fully, or dying old and alone, after seeing your loved ones dying, and anyone barely noticing your dead.
I guess this kid at least for one day will feel skyhigh, and if this is his greatest wish and it comes true, he could even feel lucky. I would accept to die if i had my greatest wish come true, and i'm sure i'm not alone.
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i cant help but think once you hit the seven THOUSAND mark enough is enough.. probably start sending some TVs now so they have something to put them all on
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On November 11 2009 18:04 LonelyMargarita wrote:
I'm really busy, but if someone wants to start a TL.net one in photoshop that people can download, add a comment & signature to, and re-upload, that'd be neat.
Just read the remainder of the responses after this one and nobody seemed to have mentioned it amidst all the poo being flung at one another.
I think this is a great idea. What better than to send him a GIGANTIC christmas card from TL?
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lol@ all the lock icons next to peoples name because of this thread. grow a heart you losers.
i wish this kid the best christmas possible and hope he gets a ton of cards to read through before his time is up.
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I heard about this boy from my friend and came back to check this thread because i remembered seeing it. He is part of one of my friends homeschooling group. Thanks for posting this!
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Katowice25012 Posts
On November 12 2009 10:11 uNcontroLable wrote:
Hey guys... there are a lot of us with a lot of unique skills... can we think of any way to collaborate on this maybe? Make some sort of huge, really unique, maybe techhy card? There's just such power in our numbers that I'm inspired... any ideas?
I am in but have no technical skills or talent of any kind.
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On November 09 2009 07:36 Japakazol wrote:
So sad. This is the kind of thing that really makes you realize that there is no benevolent man in the sky looking down on us all. The bitter irony is that times like this are when people paradoxically cling especially close to those ideas.
why does it make you think that?
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United States24680 Posts
Cali that's really cool that you took the time to do this. I think you did a pretty good job.
Also, censorship!?
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I'm to far to partake in this but the people that are willing to send a card should be really proud of themselves and all the atheist or nihilist or w/e crowd should stfu and stop poisoning this thread.
Noah <3
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Just as I was starting to make mine, I read this:
http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/medical/biorkman.asp
basically, they already celebrated christmas on november 8th, and hes really sick right now, so they want people to stop sending cards
i wish there was something i could do :/
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On November 14 2009 06:08 micronesia wrote:Cali that's really cool that you took the time to do this. I think you did a pretty good job. Also, censorship!?
No, I actually did that.
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On November 14 2009 06:52 OMin wrote:Just as I was starting to make mine, I read this: http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/medical/biorkman.aspbasically, they already celebrated christmas on november 8th, and hes really sick right now, so they want people to stop sending cards i wish there was something i could do :/
Close the thread IMO, it's a sad situation but we should respect the family's wishes.
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awe me & my husband are so going to send one :-(
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On November 14 2009 14:24 NintendoPrincess wrote:
awe me & my husband are so going to send one :-(
i hate to break it to you, but read my post about 5 posts up... they have requested that people stop sending cards because they already celebrated their early christmas last week, and the boy needs rest as he is too sick to do anything now
i think the best we can do atm is just keep him in our thoughts and wish him the best.
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I have been following this story for a while, and it gives me pause. I've signed up to this site because this seems to be the most interesting conversation on the topic, at least in English. Kudos to this site for its apparently diverse group of serious thinkers.
On the one hand, it's sad to see a child suffer, and so everyone wants to help him be happy. On the other hand, I have to wonder how many cards the child really wanted. Probably 30 or so would have been enough, and if he knew tens of thousands of people were going to be trying to cheer him up, if he was able to think in his own best interest he would probably ask for cooler stuff, like video games, dvds, and cash. I have to think that he asked for cards largely out of his own child-like lack of imaginanation, as ironic as that phrase may strike you.
Now what's interesting to me, after we concede that we do in fact care for dying children, is what's going on with adults reacting "so strongly" to the sad (pathos but never the latin) situation. Many of the replies here and elsewhere have all but confessed that their involvement in this story takes the form of them feeling bad, therefore yielding to the ever so small request for a card. One card from you will change his life, brighten up his day? I understand how a child might, before the fact at least, believe this. But you, adults? Do you fear that your wishful thinking impulses permeate throughout your life, or is this instance an exception for you?
What I mean is, apply a little critical thinking, _especially_ when your emotions are strong. Remember that this sad situation existed before you knew about it, and so do thousands, if not millions of others. Millions of sad children are asking for equally cheap things for you to do for them. If only they were made into news stories by journalists. And while we're mentioning the medium, did you ever wonder why there was a story about a sad child at this particular time? The editor probably needed a story like this for some more practical reason. And children who can't afford treatment don't make it into stories like these nearly as often. Surely there are children worse off, for instance those children whose faces are deformed--why are we less sympathetic to them?
Do you worry that your support for this child has been too targeted to one child, and too cheap? I for one am donating a tithe of my income to help cure cancer. But then what about other diseases? It seems to never end.
So unless the point is to make yourself feel better, I really don't understand the "find" here that seems so viciously defended. Once you choose to think about things like this, a torrent of worse situations should come crashing down on you, making you some kind of triage doctor with only enough cash to save 0.000001% of the patients, less than that if you don't give up major parts of your expected standard of living (which is guiltily above the majority of the victims you emotionally want to take a bullet for). Bottom line, put yourself on the cross if that's your thing, or play the numbers game, but stopping so short as a card is really some form of emotional masturbation in my humble opinion, and I for one am more interested in the critical responses than the puppy-appreciation-like oos and awws.
Anyways, thanks for the opportunity to discuss this interesting topic. I look forward to more discussions on this site.
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This makes me think of lady Dianas death.
On November 09 2009 07:36 Japakazol wrote:
So sad. This is the kind of thing that really makes you realize that there is no benevolent man in the sky looking down on us all. The bitter irony is that times like this are when people paradoxically cling especially close to those ideas.
Yeah this, and the fact that 20% of the population of South Africa have AIDS...
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I teared up reading the OP
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On November 15 2009 17:45 old times sake wrote:
*snip*
I envy your articulation. These are my sentiments.
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Man after seeing both sides of the argument it really makes me think how this situation applies to everything that permeates our lives.
Its an absolute tragedy that people especailly so young and potentially gifted has to suffer this way. I see points from both the pros and the cons of sending cards for either attempting to help or attempting to ease ones own conscience. But does't this make you think of another side of this issue?
For example, this child has not done anything wrong and still suffers, but at the same time people who are seen as the "bad guys" die as well. Except this time few people would feel sorry for that particular loss of life. It makes me wonder if this kid had done something wrong, and then got cancer, would we feel any guilt toward him no matter how young he is?
I feel that I might get flamed for this because it makes an invalid comparision. But I just wanted to put this out there.
I still support the kid and will send him a card becuase I want to try my best to help people in general, despite my limitations. But after doing it, all I can think of is other potential scenarios and our reactions.
Anyways, I wonder what are your thoughts on that?
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On November 16 2009 15:35 SniperVul5 wrote:
Man after seeing both sides of the argument it really makes me think how this situation applies to everything that permeates our lives.
Its an absolute tragedy that people especailly so young and potentially gifted has to suffer this way. I see points from both the pros and the cons of sending cards for either attempting to help or attempting to ease ones own conscience. But does't this make you think of another side of this issue?
For example, this child has not done anything wrong and still suffers, but at the same time people who are seen as the "bad guys" die as well. Except this time few people would feel sorry for that particular loss of life. It makes me wonder if this kid had done something wrong, and then got cancer, would we feel any guilt toward him no matter how young he is?
I feel that I might get flamed for this because it makes an invalid comparision. But I just wanted to put this out there.
I still support the kid and will send him a card becuase I want to try my best to help people in general, despite my limitations. But after doing it, all I can think of is other potential scenarios and our reactions.
Anyways, I wonder what are your thoughts on that?
Thanks for writing back. I don't particularly favor the idea that his potential to be talented should color our support for him. To me, that principle leads to a kind of eugenics where we help children based on their potential, and leave inferiors to die. I believe this would fundamentally betray our impulses on the issue.
Likewise, you might take the situation of this boy, and say something like: would you let him die, if you knew he was going to become Hitler? Maybe you'd say yes, but then the next question would be, what if you were only 99% sure he would be Hitler? And so, down the line we could go.
I also have to question why a child's suffering matters more than someone a little older, because neither of these cases get any comparable attention. I suppose in the case of the older, you get the Republican idea that they are responsible adults, so it's on them. But that doesn't really hold because these children have responsible adults in charge of them, too. If a responsible adult falls short, you still care about innocent suffering, and so I think this would work with adults, too.
Your thoughts?
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http://www.bread.org/learn/hunger-basics/hunger-facts-international.html
"In 2006, about 9.7 million children died before they reached their fifth birthday. Almost all of these deaths occured in developing countries, 4/5 of them in sub-Saharan Africa and South Asia, the two regions that also suffer from the highest rates of hunger and malnutrition."
Stalin was right about one thing, "The death of one man is a tragedy, the death of a million is a statistic." now that u guys sent that postcard to that poor soul, u guys wanna send another post-card to one of the 16,000 children that dies from hunger everyday?
Millions of people suffers and die around the world, can u say that anyone of those poor souls deserve that fate as well? then came along a news story about a boy that's living the last of his days and asked for christmas cards, all of the sudden people care about others suffering! you people disgusts me.
User was temp-banned for this post.
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On November 25 2009 05:14 Shizuru~ wrote:http://www.bread.org/learn/hunger-basics/hunger-facts-international.html"In 2006, about 9.7 million children died before they reached their fifth birthday. Almost all of these deaths occured in developing countries, 4/5 of them in sub-Saharan Africa and South Asia, the two regions that also suffer from the highest rates of hunger and malnutrition." Stalin was right about one thing, "The death of one man is a tragedy, the death of a million is a statistic." now that u guys sent that postcard to that poor soul, u guys wanna send another post-card to one of the 16,000 children that dies from hunger everyday? Millions of people suffers and die around the world, can u say that anyone of those poor souls deserve that fate as well? then came along a news story about a boy that's living the last of his days and asked for christmas cards, all of the sudden people care about others suffering! you people disgusts me.
Red herring.
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On November 25 2009 05:14 Shizuru~ wrote:http://www.bread.org/learn/hunger-basics/hunger-facts-international.html"In 2006, about 9.7 million children died before they reached their fifth birthday. Almost all of these deaths occured in developing countries, 4/5 of them in sub-Saharan Africa and South Asia, the two regions that also suffer from the highest rates of hunger and malnutrition." Stalin was right about one thing, "The death of one man is a tragedy, the death of a million is a statistic." now that u guys sent that postcard to that poor soul, u guys wanna send another post-card to one of the 16,000 children that dies from hunger everyday? Millions of people suffers and die around the world, can u say that anyone of those poor souls deserve that fate as well? then came along a news story about a boy that's living the last of his days and asked for christmas cards, all of the sudden people care about others suffering! you people disgusts me.
You totally missed the point of the entire thing. Way to go.
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I hope the research gets funded well. RIP Noah
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On November 25 2009 05:14 Shizuru~ wrote:http://www.bread.org/learn/hunger-basics/hunger-facts-international.html"In 2006, about 9.7 million children died before they reached their fifth birthday. Almost all of these deaths occured in developing countries, 4/5 of them in sub-Saharan Africa and South Asia, the two regions that also suffer from the highest rates of hunger and malnutrition." Stalin was right about one thing, "The death of one man is a tragedy, the death of a million is a statistic." now that u guys sent that postcard to that poor soul, u guys wanna send another post-card to one of the 16,000 children that dies from hunger everyday? Millions of people suffers and die around the world, can u say that anyone of those poor souls deserve that fate as well? then came along a news story about a boy that's living the last of his days and asked for christmas cards, all of the sudden people care about others suffering! you people disgusts me.
Because we can't send 16,000 postcards every day?
Read the thread, your exact point was already discussed and destroyed a few pages back.
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On November 25 2009 05:14 Shizuru~ wrote:http://www.bread.org/learn/hunger-basics/hunger-facts-international.html"In 2006, about 9.7 million children died before they reached their fifth birthday. Almost all of these deaths occured in developing countries, 4/5 of them in sub-Saharan Africa and South Asia, the two regions that also suffer from the highest rates of hunger and malnutrition." Stalin was right about one thing, "The death of one man is a tragedy, the death of a million is a statistic." now that u guys sent that postcard to that poor soul, u guys wanna send another post-card to one of the 16,000 children that dies from hunger everyday? Millions of people suffers and die around the world, can u say that anyone of those poor souls deserve that fate as well? then came along a news story about a boy that's living the last of his days and asked for christmas cards, all of the sudden people care about others suffering! you people disgusts me.
Through that same logic, any nice act towards a person is invalid because they have not been nice to the rest of the world?
The poor kid died of cancer, and just so happened to get a following of people who wanted to go out of their way to make his passing a little easier, while giving the rest of the world a heartwarming story.
Instead of trying to pull negativity out of the situation, how about you stop and realize that there are people who care enough to spend a little time to make a complete stranger feel better.
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though I know most people won't like my point of view, I find these sort of things a waste of time. there are people dying and starving in so many countries. why not help them? instead of wasting your time and money to do something for somebody who is already going to die.
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Well, I think he got his wish
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I am torn between two vastly different posts. On one hand I am tempted to say its sad the amount of people who came into this thread with the intention of derailing the topic completely.
But it would be nice to see people give to a cause that doesn't make the news.
On top of that, to say that an incident like this is proof that god does not exist is absurd. No different than making the assumption that it is proof for the fact.
I love the minds on teamliquid(the Myers Briggs personality test thread is a good example of what I mean by this), but I find many of you have difficulty escaping from the harsh realities of raw logic and sense to enable yourself to act like a human being. And don't say its a personality trait, because its also a choice. Some just don't need to choose to do it.
Sometimes you need to think about what is best for the situation, and not always the underlying reasoning and logic of a situation.
I hope the little boy has the Christmas of his dreams.
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I would make a joke but I would get banned. I don't want to get banned, I'm drunkish right now so I'll just ay that people die and that i hope this kid is happy before he dies. Everyone should be happy. Holiday cheer and such thats what I like about christmas season.
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Nevermind... May Noel RIP
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oh man this thread is full of emotions!!
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On November 25 2009 16:51 Carthac wrote:
The poor kid died of cancer, and just so happened to get a following of people who wanted to go out of their way to make his passing a little easier, while giving the rest of the world a heartwarming story.
how about let him die before those 2 years of pain? that would've saved him 2 years of pain with the exact same outcome. aka his passing would be extremly easier.
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On November 15 2009 17:45 old times sake wrote:
Do you worry that your support for this child has been too targeted to one child, and too cheap? I for one am donating a tithe of my income to help cure cancer. But then what about other diseases? It seems to never end.
So unless the point is to make yourself feel better, I really don't understand the "find" here that seems so viciously defended. Once you choose to think about things like this, a torrent of worse situations should come crashing down on you, making you some kind of triage doctor with only enough cash to save 0.000001% of the patients, less than that if you don't give up major parts of your expected standard of living (which is guiltily above the majority of the victims you emotionally want to take a bullet for). Bottom line, put yourself on the cross if that's your thing, or play the numbers game, but stopping so short as a card is really some form of emotional masturbation in my humble opinion, and I for one am more interested in the critical responses than the puppy-appreciation-like oos and awws.
Anyways, thanks for the opportunity to discuss this interesting topic. I look forward to more discussions on this site.
First of all I want to say while I don't visit this site all too often anymore, I would hope you would stick around.
This was the section of your post that caught my eye more than anything else. I was tempted to touch on the subject myself, but I stopped myself. The reason being, is that all things must come in steps.
If we live our perfect little life away from troubled people and difficult situations, we have a difficult time personifying any real cause. I think you show the two sides quite well, and rather than summarize what you said and obviously know yourself, I will simply say that the ideal 'gray area' of generosity is quite blurred. For those who have never donated anything, be it money, time or even blood, the simple step of sending a Christmas card can be a good step in the right direction.
The more we live, the more we grow into ourselves and learn how to synchronize ourselves with the world around us. While it may work for one person to be satisfied with a simple Christmas card, others will only feel satisfied after donating a larch chunk of money or time.
Of course, those who do donated the large chunk of money or time will criticize those who only donated a simple card, just as those who donated the card will criticize those who did nothing.
Both groups wondering how the other can be so shallow.
So, then we come back to that infinitely hazy 'gray area' we talked about earlier, and the original purpose of my response. I think it can be wrapped up and summarized into 3 simple areas.
First, you have to take into account that in the grand scheme of things (I do believe you mentioned that 0.000001%, however I would estimate it much smaller personally), how much are you really doing. And how much difference is it to donate a Christmas card, as apposed to a $30 installment.
Second, it brings up the question of who is really the one being selfish. You mentioned 'emotional masturbation' but I believe that your term can be applied to anyone's generosity, because no matter what, your giving because it makes you feel good. If it made you feel shitty to help cure cancer I would suggest you have a different problem entirely.
So what does that leave us with? Simply an extremely blurry line of reference with no reasonable solution. Thus, I believe that ridiculing someones generosity is never useful, and more often than not I would suggest it is quite the opposite.
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On November 25 2009 20:15 WhuazGoodJaggah wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2009 16:51 Carthac wrote:
The poor kid died of cancer, and just so happened to get a following of people who wanted to go out of their way to make his passing a little easier, while giving the rest of the world a heartwarming story. how about let him die before those 2 years of pain? that would've saved him 2 years of pain with the exact same outcome. aka his passing would be extremly easier.
We should just kill you since that will save you from continuing to be miserable. You're going to die anyway, so it's exactly the same outcome, right?
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On November 26 2009 01:07 koreasilver wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2009 20:15 WhuazGoodJaggah wrote:On November 25 2009 16:51 Carthac wrote:
The poor kid died of cancer, and just so happened to get a following of people who wanted to go out of their way to make his passing a little easier, while giving the rest of the world a heartwarming story. how about let him die before those 2 years of pain? that would've saved him 2 years of pain with the exact same outcome. aka his passing would be extremly easier. We should just kill you since that will save you from continuing to be miserable. You're going to die anyway, so it's exactly the same outcome, right?
you miss very significant difference, I'm not suffering any pain at all, killing someone =!= letting someone die.
How am I miserable if I don't let a kid suffer pain for 2 years, if someone is miserable then the one letting a kid go through such a bullshit.
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You're suffering from being a miserable cunt, which is perhaps worse than dying from terminal cancer. There are many people that give a lot and go through a lot to continue living even when they're dying from an incurable disease. Is it miserable for them to continue living even when they know their days are numbered? All of us have a limited time in the world. If pain alone is enough to give you a reason to just keel over a die then perhaps you should cut your string of life right now.
I mean, whether you're dying from disease, in pain, or healthy, you're just going to die in the end anyway, right? Fuck, maybe I should have just killed myself when I broke my leg since that hurt like fuck. Those sadistic doctors made me live through the pain.
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On November 26 2009 01:25 koreasilver wrote:
You're suffering from being a miserable cunt, which is perhaps worse than dying from terminal cancer. There are many people that give a lot and go through a lot to continue living even when they're dying from an incurable disease. Is it miserable for them to continue living even when they know their days are numbered? All of us have a limited time in the world. If pain alone is enough to give you a reason to just keel over a die then perhaps you should cut your string of life right now.
I mean, whether you're dying from disease, in pain, or healthy, you're just going to die in the end anyway, right? Fuck, maybe I should have just killed myself when I broke my leg since that hurt like fuck. Those sadistic doctors made me live through the pain.
yeah, im a miserable cunt for not letting someone suffer massive pain. are you some kinda sadist that you prefer ppl suffering than beeing dead?
yeah, and many ppl dont do such ridiculous shit, so? I NEVER said that they are miserable for doing that (you learned reading in school right?). I blamed the parents for beeing so egoistic and letting the kid suffer 2 years of pain. you seem to shut down your rational part of the brain in such a situation, huh?
why should i cut my string of life right now? I already clearly said that I am not suffering any pain at all, your argumentation sucks hard, maybe reboot brain because its hung?
your last paraghraph is another example of brainless bullshit. let me get this right, you died because you broke your leg, right? you suffered 2 years of massive pain every day because you broke your leg, right? was your heart so touched by this story that it forgot to pump blood in your brain or why else do you post such obvious bullshit?
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United States42689 Posts
Both of you chill the fuck out.
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I think it would be a bit wierd to be getting cards and presents from people you've never met before :\
But if he enjoys it all is good. Christmas cards are expencive now too omfg, they used to be like 2$, now they're all like 7.50$ -_- if it was nov 9th i would sent card but, kinda late now isnt it?
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On November 26 2009 03:43 WhuazGoodJaggah wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2009 01:25 koreasilver wrote:
You're suffering from being a miserable cunt, which is perhaps worse than dying from terminal cancer. There are many people that give a lot and go through a lot to continue living even when they're dying from an incurable disease. Is it miserable for them to continue living even when they know their days are numbered? All of us have a limited time in the world. If pain alone is enough to give you a reason to just keel over a die then perhaps you should cut your string of life right now.
I mean, whether you're dying from disease, in pain, or healthy, you're just going to die in the end anyway, right? Fuck, maybe I should have just killed myself when I broke my leg since that hurt like fuck. Those sadistic doctors made me live through the pain. yeah, im a miserable cunt for not letting someone suffer massive pain. are you some kinda sadist that you prefer ppl suffering than beeing dead? yeah, and many ppl dont do such ridiculous shit, so? I NEVER said that they are miserable for doing that (you learned reading in school right?). I blamed the parents for beeing so egoistic and letting the kid suffer 2 years of pain. you seem to shut down your rational part of the brain in such a situation, huh? why should i cut my string of life right now? I already clearly said that I am not suffering any pain at all, your argumentation sucks hard, maybe reboot brain because its hung? your last paraghraph is another example of brainless bullshit. let me get this right, you died because you broke your leg, right? you suffered 2 years of massive pain every day because you broke your leg, right? was your heart so touched by this story that it forgot to pump blood in your brain or why else do you post such obvious bullshit?
At first I avoided responding to you posts, because I usually ignore ignorant posts.
However ill say one thing. The lack of pain is not the only thing that makes life worth living. Who the hell are you to judge the kid was suffering too much to enjoy being alive?
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On November 25 2009 20:15 WhuazGoodJaggah wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2009 16:51 Carthac wrote:
The poor kid died of cancer, and just so happened to get a following of people who wanted to go out of their way to make his passing a little easier, while giving the rest of the world a heartwarming story. how about let him die before those 2 years of pain? that would've saved him 2 years of pain with the exact same outcome. aka his passing would be extremly easier.
.....
You have 0 clue on how cancer as a disease works
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On November 26 2009 03:43 WhuazGoodJaggah wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2009 01:25 koreasilver wrote:
You're suffering from being a miserable cunt, which is perhaps worse than dying from terminal cancer. There are many people that give a lot and go through a lot to continue living even when they're dying from an incurable disease. Is it miserable for them to continue living even when they know their days are numbered? All of us have a limited time in the world. If pain alone is enough to give you a reason to just keel over a die then perhaps you should cut your string of life right now.
I mean, whether you're dying from disease, in pain, or healthy, you're just going to die in the end anyway, right? Fuck, maybe I should have just killed myself when I broke my leg since that hurt like fuck. Those sadistic doctors made me live through the pain. yeah, im a miserable cunt for not letting someone suffer massive pain. are you some kinda sadist that you prefer ppl suffering than beeing dead? yeah, and many ppl dont do such ridiculous shit, so? I NEVER said that they are miserable for doing that (you learned reading in school right?). I blamed the parents for beeing so egoistic and letting the kid suffer 2 years of pain. you seem to shut down your rational part of the brain in such a situation, huh? why should i cut my string of life right now? I already clearly said that I am not suffering any pain at all, your argumentation sucks hard, maybe reboot brain because its hung? your last paraghraph is another example of brainless bullshit. let me get this right, you died because you broke your leg, right? you suffered 2 years of massive pain every day because you broke your leg, right? was your heart so touched by this story that it forgot to pump blood in your brain or why else do you post such obvious bullshit?
you rang?
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I am more than surprised that this thread has not been closed yet.
=\
I don't really understand why people are arguing...
1. Pain sucks
2. Death sucks
3. Hearing that thousands of people are doing a little bit to make a little dying boy in pain happy?
....priceless
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On November 25 2009 20:45 dream-_- wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2009 17:45 old times sake wrote:
Do you worry that your support for this child has been too targeted to one child, and too cheap? I for one am donating a tithe of my income to help cure cancer. But then what about other diseases? It seems to never end.
So unless the point is to make yourself feel better, I really don't understand the "find" here that seems so viciously defended. Once you choose to think about things like this, a torrent of worse situations should come crashing down on you, making you some kind of triage doctor with only enough cash to save 0.000001% of the patients, less than that if you don't give up major parts of your expected standard of living (which is guiltily above the majority of the victims you emotionally want to take a bullet for). Bottom line, put yourself on the cross if that's your thing, or play the numbers game, but stopping so short as a card is really some form of emotional masturbation in my humble opinion, and I for one am more interested in the critical responses than the puppy-appreciation-like oos and awws.
Anyways, thanks for the opportunity to discuss this interesting topic. I look forward to more discussions on this site. If we live our perfect little life away from troubled people and difficult situations, we have a difficult time personifying any real cause. I think you show the two sides quite well, and rather than summarize what you said and obviously know yourself, I will simply say that the ideal 'gray area' of generosity is quite blurred. For those who have never donated anything, be it money, time or even blood, the simple step of sending a Christmas card can be a good step in the right direction.
I'm not sure of that. While it's possible that that first act of "giving", however pretend and self serving actually opens their heart, growing it two sizes larger (or whatever the Grinch reference would be), there are other theories to consider. For instance, perhaps their surrogate charity actually meets their need for giving such that they don't need to give any more. I think this was the theory I was worrying about the post you were responding to. I am not sure what goes on in anyone's head and would hate to make generalizations, but in my personal life I have come to believe that people in general will fool themselves and not make accurate judgments about their motives--especially when emotions are involved.
Do you agree with this generalization? And do you believe that this generalization seems to fit a good deal of the activity here? I don't mean to push, but this was the issue I tried to present. I don't want you to leap from "gray area" to "maybe it's good" without putting up a little more of a
First, you have to take into account that in the grand scheme of things (I do believe you mentioned that 0.000001%, however I would estimate it much smaller personally), how much are you really doing. And how much difference is it to donate a Christmas card, as apposed to a $30 installment.
While this was one of the arguments I presented, I am actually not sure if I buy this. I was "just sayin'." I'm not sure where the invalidity lies, but if you try to take this form of thinking to extremes it seems to either paralyze or demand everything for seemingly nothing. Clearly something must have gone wrong there. I don't know what the answer is. If you ask yourself, "Can I help more?" the answer is always "yes" until the point here you turn into some kind of super kind helpful homeless guy who works all day for nothing. Other people answer this situation by saying "well, I have to get my life in order--once I'm secure and successful I'll be able to do a lot more good than if I shoot myself in the foot now." While this may be practical if true, clearly most people never get to that point--your life is never settled and you're never getting where you hoped. But it did work for Bill Gates, right?
Second, it brings up the question of who is really the one being selfish. You mentioned 'emotional masturbation' but I believe that your term can be applied to anyone's generosity, because no matter what, your giving because it makes you feel good. If it made you feel shitty to help cure cancer I would suggest you have a different problem entirely.
This is the problem isn't it? Others' motivations are so easy to suspect and criticize. Many people might give to charity to compete with their neighbors, or for supernatural rewards. Are those good motives, or selfish ones? What about guilt, or pity? To the point, how exactly are we supposed to feel when we give so that it truly is a good action? People will conclude that it's not the motives that matter, but the results.
But then, a rich person gets more results than a poor person! They are better people then, because they can give more? Or else, is it what you give in proportion to what you can spare? Again, this seems to demand we give it all.
Thanks for the comments; I look forward to responses.
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Apparently, wanting to be with your child is egoistic.
rofl this guy.
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On November 26 2009 11:06 Carthac wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2009 20:15 WhuazGoodJaggah wrote:On November 25 2009 16:51 Carthac wrote:
The poor kid died of cancer, and just so happened to get a following of people who wanted to go out of their way to make his passing a little easier, while giving the rest of the world a heartwarming story. how about let him die before those 2 years of pain? that would've saved him 2 years of pain with the exact same outcome. aka his passing would be extremly easier. You have 0 clue on how cancer as a disease works
"ok, thanks for enlighting me"
On November 26 2009 15:21 koreasilver wrote:
Apparently, wanting to be with your child is egoistic.
rofl this guy.
after you posted so much obvious bullshit, you break it down to a single still questionable thing?
But again, you seem to have some kinda wall in front of your eyes, when it comes to displeasing situations. You laugh about me because I rather use my brain instead of blindly following curently practiced society models like you?
Yeah, it is fucking egoistic to let a child suffer because you can't let it go. If a pet is suffering you put it to sleep, right? Oh no, I forgot, you freaks wouldn't even do that, you bring it to all kinda vets to have it living a few months longer. I brought and will always bring my pets to the vet to put them to sleep if they are suffering (hit by car, cancer, seniority), because it's fucking egoistic of me to let it suffer because I can't cope with the thought that it is gone. My Gradnfather died of cancer, he has choosen to die in his house rather than enlength his life a few weeks/months. He has made this choice on his own (togheter with his wife), the kid on the opposite didn't have a fucking choice.
Humans, especially parents, tend to be extremly egoistic when it comes to such situations. There are so many examples of mothers who don't want to let their comatose children (no age limit) die. In some rare cases the children indeed come back from that coma, but still they are extremly handicapped then. In those cases it's not only an egoistic act towards the patient but also to all the other ppl in need of medical help with a much better chance of convalescence.
On November 26 2009 10:50 dream-_- wrote:
At first I avoided responding to you posts, because I usually ignore ignorant posts.
However ill say one thing. The lack of pain is not the only thing that makes life worth living. Who the hell are you to judge the kid was suffering too much to enjoy being alive?
Ignorant posts? What do I ignore? Isn't it much more like the other posts are ignorant, because they obviously skip on the egoistic part of such an action? Isn't it much more ignorant to only see the tiny chance for a cure, instead of accepting other models where the chance of dying is almost inevitable but you die in dignity at home with all your friends? Such models are actually practiced, but they are not as sensational, thats why you may not have heard of them.
Did I ever say that the lack of pain is the only thing that makes life worth living? Don't try to lay words into my mouth!
Who I am to judge whether the kid should be alive or dead? A not to closely related person to make blind egoistic decisions? Why the fuck do you think a judge can't handle his own case? Why do you think a doctor shouldn't medicate close relative in an emergency situation if there are other ppl with the same skills? Because you make irrational decissions, simple as that.
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Wow this is turning into a flame-war so fast.
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He's a dying 5 year old kid and he wants cards. Cmon TL seriously? Seriously?
I'm sure he's interested in a philosophical argument about some bullshit as all 5 year olds were especially ones with a month to live.
A card is 99 cents where you can buy groceries. It doesn't matter either way.
On November 09 2009 08:17 mrgerry wrote:
Never thought a thread with such a positive objective could get derailed so fast lol
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On November 26 2009 17:27 WhuazGoodJaggah wrote:
Did I ever say that the lack of pain is the only thing that makes life worth living? Don't try to lay words into my mouth!
That's pretty much what you make it sound like, champ.
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On November 26 2009 21:25 Captain Mayhem wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2009 17:27 WhuazGoodJaggah wrote:
Did I ever say that the lack of pain is the only thing that makes life worth living? Don't try to lay words into my mouth! That's pretty much what you make it sound like, champ.
only if someone is as stupid as you.
The lack of wheels on an ordinary car don't let you drive any further, but that doesn't make it the only attribute to get a car to bring you from A to B. You also need gaz, an engine, a chassis, etc.
So if you are in a tire shop, you don't talk about the engine with the vendor, you know, thats information encapsulation. You need to learn to interpret signals better to not jump to conclusions. Thats exactly laying words into someones mouth. You push your bad signalprocessing back onto me. Instead of taking the (in your opinion) lacking information neutral (there could be, there could be none, it could be bad, it could be good) you choose the one mostly suiting your desires and throw it back at me.
Dont blame me, if you can't talk about this subject in an objective manner. It is your feelings that misinterpret my words, not my "sound", because I can't make letter sound. But maybe you can explain to me, what exactly made my words look like I see the lack of pain as the only thing making a life worth of living.
You also completely ignore the communication media, source and sink. I'm not native english speaking, so how can you know that I'm not including anguish into pain when I talk about pain? In my language it's not separated. But you dare to jump to conclusions with interpreting a signal exactly when in reality it's distorted a lot by the media (internet, text) the source (me, f.e. my native tongue)the sink (you or everyone else, fe. filling information gaps).
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On November 26 2009 17:27 WhuazGoodJaggah wrote:
Humans, especially parents, tend to be extremly egoistic when it comes to such situations. There are so many examples of mothers who don't want to let their comatose children (no age limit) die. In some rare cases the children indeed come back from that coma, but still they are extremly handicapped then. In those cases it's not only an egoistic act towards the patient but also to all the other ppl in need of medical help with a much better chance of convalescence.
So basically you don't want to be taken seriously.
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On November 26 2009 23:04 koreasilver wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2009 17:27 WhuazGoodJaggah wrote:
Humans, especially parents, tend to be extremly egoistic when it comes to such situations. There are so many examples of mothers who don't want to let their comatose children (no age limit) die. In some rare cases the children indeed come back from that coma, but still they are extremly handicapped then. In those cases it's not only an egoistic act towards the patient but also to all the other ppl in need of medical help with a much better chance of convalescence.
So basically you don't want to be taken seriously.
so basically you are an idiot?
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In the last couple of pages I've seen two more interesting things. One, a guy is pointing out the contradiction we have in our society between being okay with euthanasia for animals, but not children. I think he is on to something. If someone is suffering with a terminal disease, are we really helping them by desperately trying to keep them alive, or are we just dealing with our own emotional problems with the situation?
The second thing were a few people saying they are disappointed with the more "philosophical" issues being raised in this topic. They take this argument and jump to the conclusion that their POV is all we need. Unfortunately, people who disagree do have something to talk about, and telling them that they should turn their brains off and accept what someone says without reason is obviously delivering some faulty form of argument. If people are wrong for having qualms with all this hubbub about sending a card, you have to do more than say they're wrong if you want to convince anyone, and TBH just stating your conclusion without any reasons is one of the more vicious forms of trolling on the internet.
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On November 26 2009 23:54 WhuazGoodJaggah wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2009 23:04 koreasilver wrote:On November 26 2009 17:27 WhuazGoodJaggah wrote:
Humans, especially parents, tend to be extremly egoistic when it comes to such situations. There are so many examples of mothers who don't want to let their comatose children (no age limit) die. In some rare cases the children indeed come back from that coma, but still they are extremly handicapped then. In those cases it's not only an egoistic act towards the patient but also to all the other ppl in need of medical help with a much better chance of convalescence.
So basically you don't want to be taken seriously. so basically you are an idiot?
Something related:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Münchausen_syndrome_by_proxy
Very fascinating, but I wouldn't generalize it as being simply egoistical, there are many personal problems within the parent(s) that make it the more tragic.
In this case (this is not directed at "you"), this is very tragic for the parents, and the loss of a child is a suffering that no parent should go through, probably the worst kind of emotional suffering there is, and really, even if it is egoistical, why should it matter? You can always deduce any human motivation to being egoistical down by a game of semantics.
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On November 26 2009 23:03 WhuazGoodJaggah wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2009 21:25 Captain Mayhem wrote:On November 26 2009 17:27 WhuazGoodJaggah wrote:
Did I ever say that the lack of pain is the only thing that makes life worth living? Don't try to lay words into my mouth! That's pretty much what you make it sound like, champ. only if someone is as stupid as you. /.../ But maybe you can explain to me, what exactly made my words look like I see the lack of pain as the only thing making a life worth of living.
Jesus, settle down a bit.
how about let him die before those 2 years of pain? that would've saved him 2 years of pain with the exact same outcome. aka his passing would be extremly easier.
why should i cut my string of life right now? I already clearly said that I am not suffering any pain at all
yeah, im a miserable cunt for not letting someone suffer massive pain. are you some kinda sadist that you prefer ppl suffering than beeing dead?
There you go.
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On November 27 2009 10:26 druj wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2009 23:54 WhuazGoodJaggah wrote:On November 26 2009 23:04 koreasilver wrote:On November 26 2009 17:27 WhuazGoodJaggah wrote:
Humans, especially parents, tend to be extremly egoistic when it comes to such situations. There are so many examples of mothers who don't want to let their comatose children (no age limit) die. In some rare cases the children indeed come back from that coma, but still they are extremly handicapped then. In those cases it's not only an egoistic act towards the patient but also to all the other ppl in need of medical help with a much better chance of convalescence.
So basically you don't want to be taken seriously. so basically you are an idiot? /.../ why should it matter? You can always deduce any human motivation to being egoistical down by a game of semantics.
it should matter, because you shouldn't just think about yourself, that is what defines our civilisation (f.e. we normally dont steal from others for our own benefit).
Not any human (or animal) motivation is egoistically in its rawest form. There are animals(also humans) who don't have children on their own, and help their brothers/sisters to raise their children or the bro/sis itself. This makes genetically perfect sense, because they (bro/sis) carry the same genetic information as the one withouth own children.
@Captain Mayhem
I responded in the manner I did because of a simple word, champ.
As I already explained if I'm in a shop for rims I don't talk about the engine of the car. So if I say that someones rims are ugly and he responds that his engine rocks, I continue pointing out that the rims suck because we are in a rims shop after all.
He shifted the stuff I wrote to fit his need, doing this he will have a strong attack on me, but it is not really related to the stuff I wrote. F.e. you are braging how fast your car is and how big of a dick you have, I come and say but your car is pink, thats fucking gay. Totally unrelated although it might be accurate.
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On November 28 2009 20:23 WhuazGoodJaggah wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2009 10:26 druj wrote:On November 26 2009 23:54 WhuazGoodJaggah wrote:On November 26 2009 23:04 koreasilver wrote:On November 26 2009 17:27 WhuazGoodJaggah wrote:
Humans, especially parents, tend to be extremly egoistic when it comes to such situations. There are so many examples of mothers who don't want to let their comatose children (no age limit) die. In some rare cases the children indeed come back from that coma, but still they are extremly handicapped then. In those cases it's not only an egoistic act towards the patient but also to all the other ppl in need of medical help with a much better chance of convalescence.
So basically you don't want to be taken seriously. so basically you are an idiot? /.../ why should it matter? You can always deduce any human motivation to being egoistical down by a game of semantics. @Captain Mayhem I responded in the manner I did because of a simple word, champ.
I suggest you stop doing that to people who are actually trying to help you then (in my case by answering your question as to why the rest of the people read your text in a certain way, and point out what parts). Do you know any people who like being insulted as payback for helping others?
Because I sure as fuck don't.
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On November 28 2009 20:23 WhuazGoodJaggah wrote:
it should matter, because you shouldn't just think about yourself, that is what defines our civilisation (f.e. we normally dont steal from others for our own benefit).
Not any human (or animal) motivation is egoistically in its rawest form. There are animals(also humans) who don't have children on their own, and help their brothers/sisters to raise their children or the bro/sis itself. This makes genetically perfect sense, because they (bro/sis) carry the same
Gene selection doesn't apply to humans, hm?
Biologists should be quick to point out that humans are animals too. Our morality clearly is in our own self-interest in most cases, and when not, clearly a misfiring of a tendency that won out because it helped our ancestors with the same tendency have more grandchildren and so on. Many basic civilizations, disconnected from the major tradition, have the same tendency you are referring to--and many animals, too!
So even if we aren't thinking about ourself, we have just internalized it. For instance, in the case of this boy, our caring is probably a misfiring of a past time when he would be a likely niece or nephew, our own genetics, for whom protecting would be benefiting our own genes (because they have them too!). How this happens mentally is clearly secondary to the obvious selective pressures that bring about the tendency, and to put it prior is to make the mistake of the naive romantic (which is the standard form of the literate, mildly educated person today, so it is not meant as an insult).
It's wishful thinking to believe that our social tendencies are so free from the shackles of our genes and their history. We have much more in common with mammals and indeed all vertebrates than you seem to be implying.
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This thread is perfect and exactly what I want from TL. It started off with the story of a dying kid and evolved into a debate about euthanasia and gene selection.
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On November 29 2009 04:38 old times sake wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2009 20:23 WhuazGoodJaggah wrote:
it should matter, because you shouldn't just think about yourself, that is what defines our civilisation (f.e. we normally dont steal from others for our own benefit).
Not any human (or animal) motivation is egoistically in its rawest form. There are animals(also humans) who don't have children on their own, and help their brothers/sisters to raise their children or the bro/sis itself. This makes genetically perfect sense, because they (bro/sis) carry the same Gene selection doesn't apply to humans, hm? Biologists should be quick to point out that humans are animals too. Our morality clearly is in our own self-interest in most cases, and when not, clearly a misfiring of a tendency that won out because it helped our ancestors with the same tendency have more grandchildren and so on. Many basic civilizations, disconnected from the major tradition, have the same tendency you are referring to--and many animals, too! So even if we aren't thinking about ourself, we have just internalized it. For instance, in the case of this boy, our caring is probably a misfiring of a past time when he would be a likely niece or nephew, our own genetics, for whom protecting would be benefiting our own genes (because they have them too!). How this happens mentally is clearly secondary to the obvious selective pressures that bring about the tendency, and to put it prior is to make the mistake of the naive romantic (which is the standard form of the literate, mildly educated person today, so it is not meant as an insult). It's wishful thinking to believe that our social tendencies are so free from the shackles of our genes and their history. We have much more in common with mammals and indeed all vertebrates than you seem to be implying.
Yeah, I do agree with you that many of our altruistic actions are egoistic because we expect good feedback from them, which we benefit from again. The example I made with the brother helping his sibling to raise the children is exactly one of those examples. (btw, I didn't really get it if you directed that at me, but I always looked at humans like animals)
The point I'm applying the leverage is where we know that our altruistic actions are egoistic in it's most basic "form". We have the knowledge that we are triggered by basic instincts, but we don't necessarly have to advocate them. We are on an intelectual niveau where we can form ourself and become something bigger than a bunch of egoistic assholes.
In reality it's just so, that it's way easier to control someones basic instincs than break or bend them for his own benefit. A simple example is the oversexualized media we are confronted with. An omnipresent sentence I can hear from friends is: "Yeah, I know this show sucks, but the chicks are hot". This means, they are happy as long as their basic instinc (bone a chick) is satisfied.
Yeah, we could say now, why bother? If someone is happy watching a crappy show with a few random tittys and asses, why shouldn't he do it? It's simple, such stuff is degenerating them. Your basic instinct tells you to fucking eat that chicken that is frizzling in the oven, but do you just grab it with your hands and hit your teeth into it? Rather not, because you are not following your basic instinct (as much food as fast as possible right now).
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I agree that we can do this, but most people are simply too ignorant to not be convinced their every impulse is pretty much true, real, and right. We aren't there yet, man.
In your sexualized example, why bother indeed? The impulse represents genes that we should care little for, if not actually actively resent for their interference. Why would I care how many of my genes get passed on mostly after I'm dead and at any rate, would I really rate myself whether I manage to have 30+ children or not? If not, then I guess the impulse is misleading me. We've tried to transform the impulse into its smaller definitions in an attempt to salvage it, but I feel like this is just a disguise for keeping the actual reason alive. Disguises help it fool us yet again.
As for your second example, and I think this applies to the former as well, the way we eat chicken is most likely just another one of our impulses misfiring--our capacity for copying our ancestors' behaviors, our affinity for ritual, etc. Come on now, that fork and knife and all is not exactly a procedure reasoned out through critical thinking, a scientific achievement in optimal eating. It's rubbish from the past that won out for reasons that have more to do with its effectiveness spreading than its truth. I'm sure you agree. Where I think we disagree is that you seem to give civilization more credit than I think it has earned.
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On November 30 2009 01:40 WhuazGoodJaggah wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2009 04:38 old times sake wrote:On November 28 2009 20:23 WhuazGoodJaggah wrote:
it should matter, because you shouldn't just think about yourself, that is what defines our civilisation (f.e. we normally dont steal from others for our own benefit).
Not any human (or animal) motivation is egoistically in its rawest form. There are animals(also humans) who don't have children on their own, and help their brothers/sisters to raise their children or the bro/sis itself. This makes genetically perfect sense, because they (bro/sis) carry the same Gene selection doesn't apply to humans, hm? Biologists should be quick to point out that humans are animals too. Our morality clearly is in our own self-interest in most cases, and when not, clearly a misfiring of a tendency that won out because it helped our ancestors with the same tendency have more grandchildren and so on. Many basic civilizations, disconnected from the major tradition, have the same tendency you are referring to--and many animals, too! So even if we aren't thinking about ourself, we have just internalized it. For instance, in the case of this boy, our caring is probably a misfiring of a past time when he would be a likely niece or nephew, our own genetics, for whom protecting would be benefiting our own genes (because they have them too!). How this happens mentally is clearly secondary to the obvious selective pressures that bring about the tendency, and to put it prior is to make the mistake of the naive romantic (which is the standard form of the literate, mildly educated person today, so it is not meant as an insult). It's wishful thinking to believe that our social tendencies are so free from the shackles of our genes and their history. We have much more in common with mammals and indeed all vertebrates than you seem to be implying. Yeah, I do agree with you that many of our altruistic actions are egoistic because we expect good feedback from them, which we benefit from again. The example I made with the brother helping his sibling to raise the children is exactly one of those examples. (btw, I didn't really get it if you directed that at me, but I always looked at humans like animals) The point I'm applying the leverage is where we know that our altruistic actions are egoistic in it's most basic "form". We have the knowledge that we are triggered by basic instincts, but we don't necessarly have to advocate them. We are on an intelectual niveau where we can form ourself and become something bigger than a bunch of egoistic assholes. In reality it's just so, that it's way easier to control someones basic instincs than break or bend them for his own benefit. A simple example is the oversexualized media we are confronted with. An omnipresent sentence I can hear from friends is: "Yeah, I know this show sucks, but the chicks are hot". This means, they are happy as long as their basic instinc (bone a chick) is satisfied. Yeah, we could say now, why bother? If someone is happy watching a crappy show with a few random tittys and asses, why shouldn't he do it? It's simple, such stuff is degenerating them. Your basic instinct tells you to fucking eat that chicken that is frizzling in the oven, but do you just grab it with your hands and hit your teeth into it? Rather not, because you are not following your basic instinct (as much food as fast as possible right now).
How do you feel about people that sometimes do good things, but don't let anyone know? Like if an anonymous source writes a 100,000 dollar check to someone that's going to lose their house? Or someone that's gruff when helping someone so the other person doesn't feel the need to thank them as much if at all, so they don't create that sense of obligation in the person they're helping and in doing so can keep the relationship the same as equals no matter how much they give? Or someone that tries to help someone anyway even when the other person rejects and abuses them because that person thinks they really could use some help and if they don't help them how can they expect anyone else to? If someone makes it so they can never be thanked anytime they help anyone what is that defined as to you as altruism or whatever?
I'm not arguing anything. Because you guys seem to know this stuff, I'm just trying to think of what could a person theoretically do to create the same outcomes without being as selfish.
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