EPTReal life = many groups of INDIVIDUALS with sometimes conflicting interests. Closing your eyes to this fundamental fact and blaming any debate on "stupidity" or "corruption" cannot set you up for constructive dialog.
Obama's Healthcare Speech - Page 11
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citi.zen
2509 Posts
Real life = many groups of INDIVIDUALS with sometimes conflicting interests. Closing your eyes to this fundamental fact and blaming any debate on "stupidity" or "corruption" cannot set you up for constructive dialog. | ||
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Louder
United States2276 Posts
On September 10 2009 10:19 Caller wrote: i know to think that conservatives associate with democrats of all people O.O I should have phrased this more clearly. I actually meant the WORDS , as in "conservative democrat", as in, what the fuck? | ||
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Krikkitone
United States1451 Posts
On September 11 2009 05:14 citi.zen wrote: THE PEOPLE, in capital letters as used 99% of the time = Starcraft drones, all part of the same hive, doing what the overmind wants them to. Real life = many groups of INDIVIDUALS with sometimes conflicting interests. Closing your eyes to this fundamental fact and blaming any debate on "stupidity" or "corruption" cannot set you up for constructive dialog. Yes but those Individuals often neglect to consider the results+costs of their governmental actions/votes/bills supported and especially tend to neglect the actions of other Individuals. | ||
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ghostWriter
United States3302 Posts
On September 11 2009 05:22 Louder wrote: I should have phrased this more clearly. I actually meant the WORDS , as in "conservative democrat", as in, what the fuck? Are you talking about blue dog democrats? Because they aren't really conservative, but are really just hesitating to hop onto the health care bill because they get a lot of contributions from hospitals and pharmaceutical companies, etc. that would probably see their profits drop. | ||
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ghostWriter
United States3302 Posts
On September 11 2009 05:04 Krikkitone wrote: The government is only corrupt because the people are corrupt. People won't vote for anyone who tells them the actual compromises that need to be made. (California... in the last recall election.... when we were dealing with a deficit one candidate said Raise Taxes one said Cut Services one said eliminate the "Waste" guess who got elected.. the one who either didn't understand, or didn't want to tell people, that every bit of government "waste" is an important service to someone. Not always. There is a lot of crap that goes into bills. Politicians negotiate with one another and trade their support and influence to benefit their constituents, so that they can get reelected. A notable example of pork-barrel politics can be seen in the "bridge to nowhere" in Alaska where a $398 million bridge was suggest to reach an island that had an airport and a population of 50 people. My dorm building has more people than that. | ||
Mystlord
United States10264 Posts
On September 11 2009 05:34 ghostWriter wrote: Are you talking about blue dog democrats? Because they aren't really conservative, but are really just hesitating to hop onto the health care bill because they get a lot of contributions from hospitals and pharmaceutical companies, etc. that would probably see their profits drop. Basically. You could also throw the New Democrat Coalition in there maybe, depending on how you view them. "Conservative Democrats" are basically moderate or centrist. I have no idea where the word conservative popped in there. Conservative veiws I guess. | ||
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Krikkitone
United States1451 Posts
On September 11 2009 05:38 ghostWriter wrote: Not always. There is a lot of crap that goes into bills. Politicians negotiate with one another and trade their support and influence to benefit their constituents, so that they can get reelected. A notable example of pork-barrel politics can be seen in the "bridge to nowhere" in Alaska where a $398 million bridge was suggest to reach an island that had an airport and a population of 50 people. My dorm building has more people than that. Exactly, every bit of government "waste" is an important service to someone. And each individual bit of waste has a very small cost to everyone.... each someone is benefiting at a cost to everyone, that they normally ignore. | ||
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NExUS1g
United States254 Posts
On September 11 2009 04:47 gumbum8 wrote: But the problem is, what would we do? I don't think enough people understand what's going on to make an effective riot. Would we have a revolution? That's a really hard word to throw around these days... Please, offer solutions. Please, prove that government isn't corrupt and it's still a happy world. I want to hear responses. The people are supposed to have power, but it's impossible. We have 100 members of the Senate. 435 members of the House of Representatives. 8 members of the Supreme Court. 50 state governors. That's nearly 600 people to know in order to effectively be knowledgeable in U.S. politics. In addition to that there are laws, economics, foreign politics reaching back to before America existed, etc. And the worst part is, there's no one we can trust to digest this information for us. No one. One person slants it one way, another slants it another. Therefore, we need to be experts on all of these schools of thought if we are to make an educated decision on anything. And as we all know, even if you do do this and vote knowledgeably, there are 1,000 people voting who have no clue. We are told and told and told to vote. I think the best protest we could have in this country is to stop voting. | ||
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Hans-Titan
Denmark1711 Posts
I was actually foolish enough to have faith in Obama, and let's not fool ourselves, the man can speak, and would probably run the US (somewhat) in the right direction if allowed to. But man, seeing the US legislative procedure in action, would make Mohammed himself lose faith in Islam: so partisan, so drawn-out and with media coverage that doesn't look for solutions, but rather seeks to divide the population. I honestly never thought I'd say this, but there's too much damn coverage of American politics: reduce it, so that we get what really matters, in stead of 20 hours worth of shit in a 24 hour news cycle. I hope Obama gets something done, I really do, the US is a mess and needs cleaning up, but with every passing day I lose a little more faith. Better than Bush, sure, but everythnig would've been better than Bush and judging him by that scale is too easy. Obama isn't Jesus, I was foolish enough to think him the new Messiah and I regret my mistakes. I guess even the most sturdy idealogue will get killed in US politics. Bash away. | ||
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NExUS1g
United States254 Posts
On September 11 2009 06:13 Hans-Titan wrote: Every time I feel about our Denmarks current political situation, it's always pleasing to look across the Atlantic, where nothing gets done and society as a whole is God awful. I was actually foolish enough to have faith in Obama, and let's not fool ourselves, the man can speak, and would probably run the US (somewhat) in the right direction if allowed to. But man, seeing the US legislative procedure in action, would make Mohammed himself lose faith in Islam: so partisan, so drawn-out and with media coverage that doesn't look for solutions, but rather seeks to divide the population. I honestly never thought I'd say this, but there's too much damn coverage of American politics: reduce it, so that we get what really matters, in stead of 20 hours worth of shit in a 24 hour news cycle. I hope Obama gets something done, I really do, the US is a mess and needs cleaning up, but with every passing day I lose a little more faith. Better than Bush, sure, but everythnig would've been better than Bush and judging him by that scale is too easy. Obama isn't Jesus, I was foolish enough to think him the new Messiah and I regret my mistakes. I guess even the most sturdy idealogue will get killed in US politics. Bash away. No bashes from me. I think this is an excellent summation of how many feel. | ||
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TwilightStar
United States649 Posts
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Alizee-
United States845 Posts
One thing that I think some fail to understand at a very basic level is that for a government service like say schooling. It essentially boils down to instead of you keeping the money for yourself to decide how to spend it, you give it to the government and they decide how to spend which from a fundamental level is pretty terrible. You then factour in things like a partial welfare system so that as a community we all help make sure people get education, but its more government decision making. Same way with healthcare, I could understand stopping employee healthcare and rather make it so everyone pays for it themselves and gets to choose and all the government would have to do is put caps on pricing and some policies on it to ensure it doesn't cost too much, no denials from pre existing conditions, etc. Ya know, letting free market do its job a little more. Instead what everything seems to be proposed is just way too huge and over reaching and even more dangerous is that it puts things in place that are VERY hard to reverse if they don't work out. This isn't dipping your foot in to test the waters, this is fat kid style cannon balling into the pool and leaving no survivors. To the Swedes and Denmarkians and everyone in between, I'm glad you guys have a working system or are content at least, but its obvious America is much farther reaching in this world. Our system relies on so many things, the companies making bank on the wars, the big medical/health corps, and so on. Really, a revolution is very practical because as many have witnessed on any side of the spectrum, and no I'm not saying fence because there's more than two damn sides to everything. You can change laws and policy as per a certain party's allowance, you can get people elected in one of two parties, nothing truly changes from a fundamental level. Really though it doesn't need to change in the progressive sense, it just needs to roll back to a simpler time where we're not wasting money on every single government program under the sun that we can think of. What do you do? Wait one more year til SHTF(shit hits the fan) and then the answer will become more clear =) I mean to kind of wrap it up...think about what came out of the speech that was most significant in mainstream news....yep a guy calling the president a liar. Even more so, this is what could be the "defining" moment all of a sudden...so it doesn't matter what the speech was about, it doesn't matter what the legislation was about, but because one guy called another a liar all of a sudden one side wins? Its petty, its wasting time and money just to save their own jobs and its sickening. | ||
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Illusion.
United States348 Posts
gg no re. | ||
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L
Canada4732 Posts
On September 11 2009 07:16 Alizee- wrote: Honestly, I think it is coming to a spearhead where lately its been so back and forth, one party gets in and screws up so everything clamours for the other party to get in. Then they mess up and everyone wants the other party back in, its back and forth, but people are starting to realize that it literally does not matter who gets elected because your best interest is not an issue for them. One thing that I think some fail to understand at a very basic level is that for a government service like say schooling. It essentially boils down to instead of you keeping the money for yourself to decide how to spend it, you give it to the government and they decide how to spend which from a fundamental level is pretty terrible. You then factour in things like a partial welfare system so that as a community we all help make sure people get education, but its more government decision making. Same way with healthcare, I could understand stopping employee healthcare and rather make it so everyone pays for it themselves and gets to choose and all the government would have to do is put caps on pricing and some policies on it to ensure it doesn't cost too much, no denials from pre existing conditions, etc. Ya know, letting free market do its job a little more. Instead what everything seems to be proposed is just way too huge and over reaching and even more dangerous is that it puts things in place that are VERY hard to reverse if they don't work out. This isn't dipping your foot in to test the waters, this is fat kid style cannon balling into the pool and leaving no survivors. To the Swedes and Denmarkians and everyone in between, I'm glad you guys have a working system or are content at least, but its obvious America is much farther reaching in this world. Our system relies on so many things, the companies making bank on the wars, the big medical/health corps, and so on. Really, a revolution is very practical because as many have witnessed on any side of the spectrum, and no I'm not saying fence because there's more than two damn sides to everything. You can change laws and policy as per a certain party's allowance, you can get people elected in one of two parties, nothing truly changes from a fundamental level. Really though it doesn't need to change in the progressive sense, it just needs to roll back to a simpler time where we're not wasting money on every single government program under the sun that we can think of. What do you do? Wait one more year til SHTF(shit hits the fan) and then the answer will become more clear =) I mean to kind of wrap it up...think about what came out of the speech that was most significant in mainstream news....yep a guy calling the president a liar. Even more so, this is what could be the "defining" moment all of a sudden...so it doesn't matter what the speech was about, it doesn't matter what the legislation was about, but because one guy called another a liar all of a sudden one side wins? Its petty, its wasting time and money just to save their own jobs and its sickening. When you know people who actually work in politics and put in hours after hours to get shit done, you pull back from this cynical point of view. The system might not be ideal, but what exactly are you going to propose to replace it with a revolution? | ||
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Alizee-
United States845 Posts
Again this is kind of a make believe scenario because in a real revolution type scenario I'd envision remnants of the current power structure hanging on with those that are blindly faithful, various gangs and collaboratives trying to siege power in different regions, small communities trying to keep it together and just survive. Again you have to realize that its not so cut and dry as just ok here you run the show and everyone else behave while we fix it. The current members of the government in anything more than an administrative/clerk type role would HAVE to be replaced. The deep connections to various corporations, associations, and lobbying groups are far too ingrained and embedded in our government to ever make true strides that benefit people the most. Federal government would have to be returned to an as originally intended type entity, not the over reaching almost monarchical type setup that is present day. Quite frankly as you saw in the one guy's post, Americans are taxed a shit ton, I'd like to see less federal programs and more money going back into the taxpayer's pockets. Its their money, they should choose to spend it how they wish. Let states and local governments organize their communities in more of a way that they see fit. Right now there's so much bullshit with programs that if a state opposes a program the federal government wants, they threaten to withhold funding to states and it should never be that way. This again assuming all functions of the country operate the exact same as they do today post-revolution. I think you have to look no further than small town America, people are generally polite and courteous to one another. They don't run around killing one another or blowing shit up yet their police forces are small and government reach is minimal. I think it boils down to values and that government encroaching on every aspect of your life isn't what determines whether people behave for better or worse. I think most certainly get all the troops home and no standing armies, we have CLEARLY enough issues at home and the last thing we need to be doing is endangering REAL national security by muddling in everyone's business across the ponds. Honestly, its not a one man job and I haven't thought of enough to really solidify everything to make it a worth cause, but fundamentally restoring it to the way things once were, keep it localized to meet the needs of each area and community alone can solve much of our problems. Start making shit in America for a change, let people build things instead of rampant consumerism and a bunch of lazy, bottle feeding Americans that want to be taken care of the government in every aspect of their life. If you don't like the constitution, this isn't the country for you. If you're for any bit of changing it you need to find a new country to live in especially if a revolution were to occur. I know this was retardedly long winded, I don't even know if its coherent at this point, but you asked so I answered. | ||
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NExUS1g
United States254 Posts
So the proof that this conservative broadcast provides that shows Joe Wilson is speaking the truth is the summary of Ed Morrissey, another conservative, who runs another conservative news site who did a "review". Talk about your circular logic. At any rate, the bill states right from the get go, "(2) BUILDING ON CURRENT SYSTEM- This division achieves this purpose by building on what works in today’s health care system, while repairing the aspects that are broken." This means that if illegal aliens weren't allowed on before, they're not allowed on now. If that doesn't seal the deal for you, how about this? and also, "SEC. 246. NO FEDERAL PAYMENT FOR UNDOCUMENTED ALIENS. 43 Nothing in this subtitle shall allow Federal payments for affordability credits on behalf of individuals who are not lawfully present in the United States." However, I personally think that all people in this country need health care whether they're illegal or not. Health care providers also need a patient-doctor confidentiality that needs to be stressed to the immigrant public so they know they can get health care safely. Why? Because they're here whether they get health care or not, and they may bring various communicable diseases -- most notably tuberculosis. Many of these individuals who are illegal and have been found to have tuberculosis will often times pick up and leave, thus not finishing their treatment. Due to its bacterial nature, an incomplete course of treatment can allow the latter generations of the bacteria create immunity to standard therapy. This new strand of tuberculosis is also airborne. If you share breathing space with someone with tuberculosis -- whether working with them, in transit, in the grocery store, in a line at the bank -- you are exposed to this disease. And it's important to note that this disease can be deadly. And don't think that the only way workers get this is in farms or Burger King, oh no, I've seen it from executive offices to warehouse workers. If you're interested in actually reading this bill, you can here: http://www.opencongress.org/bill/111-h3200/text | ||
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ghostWriter
United States3302 Posts
http://rawstory.com/08/news/2009/09/10/obama-speech-disrupter-a-health-industry-darling/ He got almost a quarter of a million dollars from health professionals. Coincidence? | ||
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Pyrrhuloxia
United States6700 Posts
On September 11 2009 09:25 ghostWriter wrote: http://mediamattersaction.org/factcheck/200909090009 http://rawstory.com/08/news/2009/09/10/obama-speech-disrupter-a-health-industry-darling/ He got almost a quarter of a million dollars from health professionals. Coincidence? NEWS FLASH - THIS JUST IN - WE INTERRUPT YOUR REGULARLY SCHEDULED STARCRAFT DISCUSSION TO BRING YOU THIS SPECIAL REPORT - Groups and individuals tend to donate money to political representatives THAT THEY AGREE WITH! SHOCKING! - WE WILL BRING YOU MORE AT ELEVEN | ||
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Caller
Poland8075 Posts
On September 11 2009 09:25 ghostWriter wrote: http://mediamattersaction.org/factcheck/200909090009 http://rawstory.com/08/news/2009/09/10/obama-speech-disrupter-a-health-industry-darling/ He got almost a quarter of a million dollars from health professionals. Coincidence? barack obama got a shitton of money from goldman sachs, and the aig bailout saved goldman sachs' ass. Not to mention geithner and kashkari are ex-goldman sachs. ALL politicians have and will accept bribes (in form of either direct cash, favors, or votes) regardless of how honest they profess to be. They all have cheated in some way or another-that's why they want to be politicians. As Plato and Aristotle wrote, the best leader is someone that does not want to be a leader-for they will be the one that will think on behalf of the led, and as such they cannot cheat them for it would be cheating themselves. Is it any surprise that any bureaucracy will inevitably have deadweight loss? | ||
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Pyrrhuloxia
United States6700 Posts
On September 11 2009 09:32 Caller wrote: As Plato and Aristotle wrote, the best leader is someone that does not want to be a leader-for they will be the one that will think on behalf of the led, and as such they cannot cheat them for it would be cheating themselves. Is it any surprise that any bureaucracy will inevitably have deadweight loss? AKA the best leaders are beta types that will get nowhere near the levers of power in a country like this one. | ||
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