On July 02 2009 16:04 HonestTea wrote: I just don't like how Z-Bo is going to fuck up OJ, Gay, and Thabeet.
he can't really fuck up thabeet since thabeet is gonna take years to develop any semblance of an offensive game.
and while he may fuck up OJ and Gay's games a bit, it's not like he can make it any worse than they were last year. On the other hand, if somehow the coach can find a way to make this team work together and gel, randolph will provide a post scoring option that they need badly.
Stat-wise, maybe so.
Young-player-development-wise, Z-Bo is cultural poison.
On July 02 2009 14:19 Roffles wrote: Chris Wallace is the biggest fucking idiot GM on the face of this planet. The man needs to be fired like ASAP.
Why on earth would you want Zach Randolph? Idiot
I generally agree with you. However, this is an interesting move and it may not be as bad as it seems.
Grizz clearly had a need @ PF and since no premier FAs want to go to memphis anyway, the loss of cap space on Randolph is a minor opportunity cost since they got him basically for nothing.
Randolph is well regarded as a poor team player and an even poorer defender. There is no denying his offensive abilities though. He has always been an amazing scorer with a combo of size and touch that has rarely been seen. And if there were ever a situation where randolph's defensive liabilities are minimized, it is with a premier defensive center that excels @ weakside help. Lot of people have questioned Thabeet but I believe that he will mature into that type of premier defender. Considering that Thabeet has zero offensive game and you need at least one post up option to have a balanced offense, they have the potential to be the perfect combination where the whole is greater than the sum of the parts.
Again, this is a huge question mark here and it is still probable that the grizz will still suck big time. But, if somehow this team can gel and play together well, there is some potential here. I actually like this trade for the grizz since they were going to suck anyway, might as well take a shot on a talented player that fills a weakness and hope that everyone can mesh.
Again, I basically agree with all the z-bo hate and I thought he was horrible for the knicks.
But having watched many grizz games last year, I thought their weaknesses were as follows
- interior defense/shot blocking - lack of post up threat - Gay/OJ chemistry (imo mostly gay ball hogging and chucking bad shots) - poor point play
thabeet will hopefully solve the first problem and randolph solves the second. With or without randolph, gay and OJ will need to work out their chemistry issues and conley is going to have to step up and develop a consistent outside J to keep defenses from collapsing.
I dunno, call me crazy but the more I think about it the more I like this trade for the grizz. Randolph may end up being a cancer in the locker room but I get the feeling that he's matured a bit and he'll behave. The real question is the coaching and if Hollins or whoever ends up coaching the grizz will be able to implement an effective system and get everyone to buy into it. I'm still skeptical about Conley's ability but 2-5, I think the grizz have loads of talent that theoretically fit together well.
Biggest thing is that the grizz risk little because without a low post threat like randolph, the grizz have almost no chance of making the playoffs in the west anyway.
I just think the black hole that is Zach Randolph's negativity is strong enough to wreck anything... especially a young team with developing players and an already dubious chemistry.
Dude was arrested for a DUI and suspended for punching Louis Admunsen and that's only last year.
God damnit Joe Dumars. Just fuck. Gordan for Rip is a terrible switch off in my opinion. Unloading Sheed was probably needed and expected. If you now get rid of Tayshaun I'm going to have to send some hate mail. Stuckey isn't even a "true" point guard in my eyes either. He could play a 1/2 combo, but he has the look to score first mentality.
Dumars needs to quit IMO, I think he is not thinking clearly. He's just trying too hard to build an East-dominating team and I think his frustration is hurting his basketball decisions. Why pull the trigger on ~90ish million 1 day into free agency O__O
On July 02 2009 23:19 Xeris wrote: Dumars needs to quit IMO, I think he is not thinking clearly. He's just trying too hard to build an East-dominating team and I think his frustration is hurting his basketball decisions. Why pull the trigger on ~90ish million 1 day into free agency O__O
In Joe We Trust.
I think Avery might turn out ok, and it'll make Stuckey better.
I'm going to agree with all the "Dumars-is-an-idiot" posts. Ben Gordon is even't that good of player. Sure, he can catch fire, but that's it. He lacks so many other things in the game of basketball. And as someone already mentioned, good luck building a championship team centered around Gordon and Villanueva. Or building a championship team with Gordon and Villanueva as your 2 and 4 respectively. In the land of the Celtics, Magic, and the Cavs, there is absolutely no hope for this Detroit team currently.
Not only did they pick up a player that won't net them a championship; they overpaid him.
This guy's logic doesn't make much sense. He mentions neither of these guys is as good as Lebron James or Chris Bosh. Ofc, but either of those guys would take up more than the combined money spent on BG + CV. Chances of getting Lebron are small, chances of getting Bosh are OK I guess, except I don't think Bosh has proven himself to be better than BG, let alone BG + CV. Particularly in the playoffs.
Dumars is taking a ton of heat like he is some random nub, but I think he has the highest winning percentage of any GM... He should have a little while to do something, given his track record. Personally I wanted to get Amare out of this, but oh well.
It remains to be seen whether this team can compete with the East yet. A lot remains to be seen, like whether Rip is traded, and whether Stuckey turns out to be a good player or average one. Last season was basically his rookie season, and he showed potential. Depending on how things go Detroit might be a lot like in 2004, with the best overall 5 players, but not the best player in a series. I am fairly optimistic about this team.
On July 03 2009 05:33 Servolisk wrote:Chances of getting Lebron are small, chances of getting Bosh are OK I guess, except I don't think Bosh has proven himself to be better than BG, let alone BG + CV. Particularly in the playoffs.
Really? You don't think Bosh has proven himself to be better than Ben Gordon?
Bosh: -Played an important role in helping Team USA winning a gold medal at the Beijing Olympics -4-time Allstar -One of the few players in the league capable of averaging 20/10 -Ranked 9th in PPG, 6th in RPG, 4th overall in FTA this season, 3rd overall in FTM -PER over 22 over past four seasons -Career TS% 0.567 -Can play both PF and C effectively -Career playoff PER 20.4
Gordon: -6th man of the year in 04-05 -Despite being a 1-dimensional scorer, was 23rd in Pts/48min, as compared to Bosh at 11th -PER peaked at 18.2 in 06-07, 16.5 and 17.0 since -Career TS% 0.544 -Not enough PG skills to play PG, small for a SG -Career playoff PER 14.9
Even ignoring accolades and stats, how can the two even be compared? One is the centerpiece of his team, and has led his team to the playoffs twice. The other is a perennial sixth man who does nothing but produce points off the bench. Gordon is COMPLETELY one-dimensional offensive player and he's not even ahead of Bosh in that part of his game. I'm sorry, but I think you're getting caught up in the fool's gold that was Gordon's performance in the BOS-CHI series. A player doesn't suddenly become Allstar-caliber simply by scoring a bunch of points and knocking down difficult shots for an underdog team that wasn't expected to do anything in the postseason, against a severely depleted Celtics team.
Bosh is certainly better than both BG and CV, and the fact that he's been injury free is really appealing, but you need to take into account that he's the best player on a bad team and his numbers aren't particularly impressive when you consider that. Obviously I'll take 22/9, but I think Servolisk is trying to say he hasn't proven he can do that on a good team, since he's not exactly dominating on a bad team. He's still a top 5 big man obviously, but I don't know that I'd consider him the dominating center that everyone is coveting. More like a Pau Gasol, but maybe a bit worse.
The other thing is that Joe doesn't want to be in a sweepstakes for Bosh. We already know the other big FAs in the 2010 class aren't coming to Detroit, and Bosh is a bit more likely than the others, but look at how many teams have done major salary dumps within the past two weeks. I think Joe is taking less of a gamble to secure a 50+ win team, rather than trying to hit a HR on a superstar that isn't coming. I like that style of thinking, I just wish there was someone better to use it on than BG.
I assume the Pistons are going to go with a vet coach, so we'll see if that makes a difference in the development of Stuckey & co. Also, remember that defense has more to do with effort than ability. I think it's a lot harder to turn a defender into a good offensive player than the other way around.
I think this was the better choice, but a lot more decisions still need to be made.
"I mean, they didn't pursue me at all," Gordon said. "They didn't even make an offer, so it was pretty much a one-man race."
That's my biggest issue with the signing right now. I think Joe definitely overpaid. Well done, to Gordon's agent.
it's not 100% official yet, but it looks like artest is going to sign for the lakers, which, if he does, means ariza is probably going to be out. it'll be interesting to see how that works out.
On July 03 2009 08:18 TheMusiC wrote: it's not 100% official yet, but it looks like artest is going to sign for the lakers, which, if he does, means ariza is probably going to be out. it'll be interesting to see how that works out.
While the Raptors have never been serious contenders with Bosh, their 06-07 season was quite successful. Instead of going through it, I'll just quote the Raptors wiki page summary of that year:
The first half of the season produced mixed results as Toronto struggled towards the .500 mark.[68] However, Toronto ended the regular season with a 47–35 record, securing the third seed in the Eastern Conference for the 2007 NBA Playoffs along with the Atlantic Division title, as well as homecourt advantage for the first time in franchise history.[69][70] Bosh recorded career-highs in ppg and rpg[39] and was voted to start in the 2007 NBA All-Star Game.[71] The Raptors were also praised for their improved defense, ball-sharing and tremendous team chemistry.[72] Colangelo, Gherardini and Mitchell were credited with Toronto's turnaround this season,[73] which was one of the best in NBA history in terms of league standing and defensive ranking.[74] Mitchell was subsequently named the 2006–07 NBA Coach of the Year, the first coach in Raptors history to receive the honour,[75] while Colangelo was named 2006–07 Executive of the Year.[76] On 24 April 2007, the Raptors won their first playoff game in five seasons, with an 89–83 victory over the New Jersey Nets,[77] but lost the series 4–2.[78]"
Being the best player on a team that was the third seed in the East, and starting in the All-star Game. How is that not playing well on a good team? It may have been in a very weak conference and the Raptors may not have been serious contenders, but I don't think you can say that they were a bad team that year. At the least, how is that not significantly more impressive than being a 1-dimensional sixth man (i.e. role player) for a Bulls team that never did any better?
I don't see how one can argue that Bosh is not dominating on the Raptors. Just look at his stats and watch how he plays. I have yet to find one way of measuring his performance that doesn't result in him looking like a great player.
Top 5 big man like Pau Gasol, and that's not a "dominating center"? How many centers in this league would you take over either Bosh or Pau? Dwight and....? Duncan and Shaq are old. AlJeff is comparable, but doesn't have nearly the diversity and/or defense Bosh does. Yao is injured and possibly done (makes me sad just thinking about it).
Just look at the evidence and what you're conceding. You're acknowledging that Bosh is a top 5 center and comparable to Pau, yet somehow arguing that he's not at a whole other level from Gordon? Is Gordon a top 5 anything? Is he a top 10 anything? A top 25 anything? The ONLY thing he does is score the ball, and he's not even better than Bosh at doing that.
On July 03 2009 08:09 Jibba wrote: Bosh is certainly better than both BG and CV, and the fact that he's been injury free is really appealing, but you need to take into account that he's the best player on a bad team and his numbers aren't particularly impressive when you consider that. Obviously I'll take 22/9, but I think Servolisk is trying to say he hasn't proven he can do that on a good team, since he's not exactly dominating on a bad team. He's still a top 5 big man obviously, but I don't know that I'd consider him the dominating center that everyone is coveting. More like a Pau Gasol, but maybe a bit worse.
The other thing is that Joe doesn't want to be in a sweepstakes for Bosh. We already know the other big FAs in the 2010 class aren't coming to Detroit, and Bosh is a bit more likely than the others, but look at how many teams have done major salary dumps within the past two weeks. I think Joe is taking less of a gamble to secure a 50+ win team, rather than trying to hit a HR on a superstar that isn't coming. I like that style of thinking, I just wish there was someone better to use it on than BG.
I assume the Pistons are going to go with a vet coach, so we'll see if that makes a difference in the development of Stuckey & co. Also, remember that defense has more to do with effort than ability. I think it's a lot harder to turn a defender into a good offensive player than the other way around.
I think this was the better choice, but a lot more decisions still need to be made.
"I mean, they didn't pursue me at all," Gordon said. "They didn't even make an offer, so it was pretty much a one-man race."
That's my biggest issue with the signing right now. I think Joe definitely overpaid. Well done, to Gordon's agent.
I don't think Bosh is a top 5 big man. I put these over him, and probably others in the near future :O
Duncan Garnett Howard Shaq Stoudemire Gasol Bynum (pre-injury) Boozer Aldridge (too bad Toronto too Bargnani over him, lol...) Yao (pre-potential career endinging injury...) Dirk David West (maybe) Al Jefferson
And if you take into account the disproportionate damage Bosh will do to cap space there are a whole lot more I would prefer to have.
As for BG compared to Bosh, basically I more meant to say I don't think Bosh has proven anything yet. But based on playoff performances, I think BG is ahead of him.
I totally agree with cyric here. Bosh is an elite talent and it's close, but a case can be made that he is top 5 today. And even if he isn't top 5 today with guys like Duncan ahead of him right now, you have to account for the fact that Bosh is only 25 and is still on the growth curve. Basketball players typically peak in their late 20's so he can be expected to get even better. Bosh will be a centerpiece big for a long time.
If you were building a team from scratch today, I would easily take bosh ahead of guys like garnett, duncan and shaq who are at the end of their careers. I would take Bosh ahead of Yao for health reasons. I would take Bosh ahead of Gasol, Bynum, Boozer, Aldridge and West based solely on current skill. The only big that I would definitely take ahead of Bosh is Howard and I would most likely take Dirk and Stoudemire ahead of him too while Jefferson is about on par.
Bosh is the total package and if he can get paired with a star wing player and some good role players, he can be the centerpiece of a championship team. Bosh is far ahead of Gordon in my book.
EPT
