On September 14 2012 07:21 Flameling wrote: Show AR would be awesome. On the other hand, I saw a feature request for allowing you to change it. Idk about that one, I thought it should be allowed as long as the mapper specifically allows you to ;~;
I've made numerous posts about that in support of the idea. I don't understand why people think the mapper needs control over the AR. AR is different for everyone. Some people can't handle high AR, while others can't handle low AR. I don't see how the AR contributes to the artistic aspect of the map, either. The timing of the notes and the patterns used are what makes a map. Everything else is eye candy. A map feels the same to me whether it's AR5 or AR10, other than the fact that I'd be far better at the AR10 due to the fact that I read high AR far better than low AR.
The idea that people who play the game for their personal enjoyment should be subject to the whim of a mapper just because maps are a form of artistic expression is just as ludicrous. If you don't have fun playing a map a certain way, you should be allowed to change things, as long as it doesn't change the core mechanics of the map. Every other music game allows for changes of various options. Sometimes they're poorly done with only a small selection of changes (o2jam and their 0.5x, 1x, 1.5x, 2x, 2.5x, 3x, 4x, 5x, 6x speeds), but it's still available.
As far as I'm concerned there are two kinds of music games: those designed for casual players which generally have few features outside of the core gameplay (guitar hero definitely counts here, despite having a higher skill ceiling than most casual games) and those which are geared towards the rhythm gamer who is serious, which have a number of options which can be changed, etc. Such as o2jam, stepmania, etc.
Osu seems to be stuck somewhere between the two, occasionally making features which benefit the players who play seriously, but often making decisions which gear it towards casual play. Locking AR, forcing backgrounds, and generally allowing the mapper more or less full control over the experience the player has while playing firmly points osu in a direction which alienates serious players and fosters a casual approach to the game. To foster high level gaming you need to make the interface as clean and non-intrusive as possible, and allow the player to customize as much of their experience as possible without impinging on the core mechanics.
Another example of something I haven't yet mentioned from stepmania. There is a noteskin (which changes the appearance of the arrows) called Note. The default skin for arrows in stepmania/DDR is a technicolor animated arrow. Note changes that so that depending on where in a bar of music the note would fall, the color of the arrow changes. quarter notes are red, 8th notes are blue, 16th yellow, etc. Triplets have their own colors. This probably makes it quite a bit easier to read for most people. Did the community argue about whether or not scores were valid using that noteskin? Hell no, we embraced it. Some people still chose to use the normal notes, some people chose to use Note as their skin. It made no difference to anyone else because it didn't change any patterns in the song, it didn't change the life difficulty or the timing difficulties, so it was fare game.
I don't get why the osu community is so zealous about controlling how a player plays the game. Just let us have fun, if you like making maps with intricate storyboards and skins, go right ahead. The players who care about that won't delete everything. The players who don't care will. Forcing the players who don't care to deal with your bullshit is a good way to piss them off, and force them to leave.
Normally I would be willing to donate to a cause like Osu, but with the way peppy and the other elitist mappers treat the people who play the game, there's no way on earth he's getting my money now.
Well, I'm all for more player controls, and all that other stuff. You say that it feels the same, but I just can't agree with that, especially considering that you are better at some maps than others because of AR. I'm not completely sure, but wouldn't turning on HR, and low AR on songs to rank be somewhat OP? Rather than a song with AR9-11 with HR.
An easy example I guess would have to be airman, where the AR is the thing that makes the map what it is. If you could change that, it would be incredibly stupid having those who have FC'd it using an "easier" AR (I say easier because it could be easier for some, MAYBE harder for others, doubt it)
Though, if it were implemented, I'd probably want it to be unranked, rather than be allowed for ranked play, which would make the top40 much stupider, unless they would separate each AR category in the ranks(which would probably be even dumber).
Idk though, I'm pretty content with the way the game stands as of now, besides some things such as the ranking system of course.
If customizable AR were in, it would only be toggle-able upwards, I can basically guarantee it.
Well, that makes sense. But idk, I'm not really all that troubled by mappers controlling what their AR is, or just what their map plays like in general. I just feel like it feels more fair, and gives an even playing field for those who try to rank high on the maps.
BUT, I would definitely love to be able to do unranked plays for songs after changing their AR.
AR is a "core mechanic". It allows you to have more notes on screen, which makes sight reading harder. If you don't like those maps, you don't have to play them.
On September 14 2012 07:21 Flameling wrote: Show AR would be awesome. On the other hand, I saw a feature request for allowing you to change it. Idk about that one, I thought it should be allowed as long as the mapper specifically allows you to ;~;
I've made numerous posts about that in support of the idea. I don't understand why people think the mapper needs control over the AR. AR is different for everyone. Some people can't handle high AR, while others can't handle low AR. I don't see how the AR contributes to the artistic aspect of the map, either. The timing of the notes and the patterns used are what makes a map. Everything else is eye candy. A map feels the same to me whether it's AR5 or AR10, other than the fact that I'd be far better at the AR10 due to the fact that I read high AR far better than low AR.
The idea that people who play the game for their personal enjoyment should be subject to the whim of a mapper just because maps are a form of artistic expression is just as ludicrous. If you don't have fun playing a map a certain way, you should be allowed to change things, as long as it doesn't change the core mechanics of the map. Every other music game allows for changes of various options. Sometimes they're poorly done with only a small selection of changes (o2jam and their 0.5x, 1x, 1.5x, 2x, 2.5x, 3x, 4x, 5x, 6x speeds), but it's still available.
As far as I'm concerned there are two kinds of music games: those designed for casual players which generally have few features outside of the core gameplay (guitar hero definitely counts here, despite having a higher skill ceiling than most casual games) and those which are geared towards the rhythm gamer who is serious, which have a number of options which can be changed, etc. Such as o2jam, stepmania, etc.
Osu seems to be stuck somewhere between the two, occasionally making features which benefit the players who play seriously, but often making decisions which gear it towards casual play. Locking AR, forcing backgrounds, and generally allowing the mapper more or less full control over the experience the player has while playing firmly points osu in a direction which alienates serious players and fosters a casual approach to the game. To foster high level gaming you need to make the interface as clean and non-intrusive as possible, and allow the player to customize as much of their experience as possible without impinging on the core mechanics.
Another example of something I haven't yet mentioned from stepmania. There is a noteskin (which changes the appearance of the arrows) called Note. The default skin for arrows in stepmania/DDR is a technicolor animated arrow. Note changes that so that depending on where in a bar of music the note would fall, the color of the arrow changes. quarter notes are red, 8th notes are blue, 16th yellow, etc. Triplets have their own colors. This probably makes it quite a bit easier to read for most people. Did the community argue about whether or not scores were valid using that noteskin? Hell no, we embraced it. Some people still chose to use the normal notes, some people chose to use Note as their skin. It made no difference to anyone else because it didn't change any patterns in the song, it didn't change the life difficulty or the timing difficulties, so it was fare game.
I don't get why the osu community is so zealous about controlling how a player plays the game. Just let us have fun, if you like making maps with intricate storyboards and skins, go right ahead. The players who care about that won't delete everything. The players who don't care will. Forcing the players who don't care to deal with your bullshit is a good way to piss them off, and force them to leave.
Normally I would be willing to donate to a cause like Osu, but with the way peppy and the other elitist mappers treat the people who play the game, there's no way on earth he's getting my money now.
Well, I'm all for more player controls, and all that other stuff. You say that it feels the same, but I just can't agree with that, especially considering that you are better at some maps than others because of AR. I'm not completely sure, but wouldn't turning on HR, and low AR on songs to rank be somewhat OP? Rather than a song with AR9-11 with HR.
An easy example I guess would have to be airman, where the AR is the thing that makes the map what it is. If you could change that, it would be incredibly stupid having those who have FC'd it using an "easier" AR (I say easier because it could be easier for some, MAYBE harder for others, doubt it)
Though, if it were implemented, I'd probably want it to be unranked, rather than be allowed for ranked play, which would make the top40 much stupider, unless they would separate each AR category in the ranks(which would probably be even dumber).
Idk though, I'm pretty content with the way the game stands as of now, besides some things such as the ranking system of course.
If customizable AR were in, it would only be toggle-able upwards, I can basically guarantee it.
Well, that makes sense. But idk, I'm not really all that troubled by mappers controlling what their AR is, or just what their map plays like in general. I just feel like it feels more fair, and gives an even playing field for those who try to rank high on the maps.
BUT, I would definitely love to be able to do unranked plays for songs after changing their AR.
You can do this if you want, it takes ~10 seconds to go change the AR in the edit mode, after which it's unranked. I've done it multiple times, it's a little out of the way but not too bad.
On September 14 2012 07:21 Flameling wrote: Show AR would be awesome. On the other hand, I saw a feature request for allowing you to change it. Idk about that one, I thought it should be allowed as long as the mapper specifically allows you to ;~;
I've made numerous posts about that in support of the idea. I don't understand why people think the mapper needs control over the AR. AR is different for everyone. Some people can't handle high AR, while others can't handle low AR. I don't see how the AR contributes to the artistic aspect of the map, either. The timing of the notes and the patterns used are what makes a map. Everything else is eye candy. A map feels the same to me whether it's AR5 or AR10, other than the fact that I'd be far better at the AR10 due to the fact that I read high AR far better than low AR.
The idea that people who play the game for their personal enjoyment should be subject to the whim of a mapper just because maps are a form of artistic expression is just as ludicrous. If you don't have fun playing a map a certain way, you should be allowed to change things, as long as it doesn't change the core mechanics of the map. Every other music game allows for changes of various options. Sometimes they're poorly done with only a small selection of changes (o2jam and their 0.5x, 1x, 1.5x, 2x, 2.5x, 3x, 4x, 5x, 6x speeds), but it's still available.
As far as I'm concerned there are two kinds of music games: those designed for casual players which generally have few features outside of the core gameplay (guitar hero definitely counts here, despite having a higher skill ceiling than most casual games) and those which are geared towards the rhythm gamer who is serious, which have a number of options which can be changed, etc. Such as o2jam, stepmania, etc.
Osu seems to be stuck somewhere between the two, occasionally making features which benefit the players who play seriously, but often making decisions which gear it towards casual play. Locking AR, forcing backgrounds, and generally allowing the mapper more or less full control over the experience the player has while playing firmly points osu in a direction which alienates serious players and fosters a casual approach to the game. To foster high level gaming you need to make the interface as clean and non-intrusive as possible, and allow the player to customize as much of their experience as possible without impinging on the core mechanics.
Another example of something I haven't yet mentioned from stepmania. There is a noteskin (which changes the appearance of the arrows) called Note. The default skin for arrows in stepmania/DDR is a technicolor animated arrow. Note changes that so that depending on where in a bar of music the note would fall, the color of the arrow changes. quarter notes are red, 8th notes are blue, 16th yellow, etc. Triplets have their own colors. This probably makes it quite a bit easier to read for most people. Did the community argue about whether or not scores were valid using that noteskin? Hell no, we embraced it. Some people still chose to use the normal notes, some people chose to use Note as their skin. It made no difference to anyone else because it didn't change any patterns in the song, it didn't change the life difficulty or the timing difficulties, so it was fare game.
I don't get why the osu community is so zealous about controlling how a player plays the game. Just let us have fun, if you like making maps with intricate storyboards and skins, go right ahead. The players who care about that won't delete everything. The players who don't care will. Forcing the players who don't care to deal with your bullshit is a good way to piss them off, and force them to leave.
Normally I would be willing to donate to a cause like Osu, but with the way peppy and the other elitist mappers treat the people who play the game, there's no way on earth he's getting my money now.
Well, I'm all for more player controls, and all that other stuff. You say that it feels the same, but I just can't agree with that, especially considering that you are better at some maps than others because of AR. I'm not completely sure, but wouldn't turning on HR, and low AR on songs to rank be somewhat OP? Rather than a song with AR9-11 with HR.
An easy example I guess would have to be airman, where the AR is the thing that makes the map what it is. If you could change that, it would be incredibly stupid having those who have FC'd it using an "easier" AR (I say easier because it could be easier for some, MAYBE harder for others, doubt it)
Though, if it were implemented, I'd probably want it to be unranked, rather than be allowed for ranked play, which would make the top40 much stupider, unless they would separate each AR category in the ranks(which would probably be even dumber).
Idk though, I'm pretty content with the way the game stands as of now, besides some things such as the ranking system of course.
If customizable AR were in, it would only be toggle-able upwards, I can basically guarantee it.
Well, that makes sense. But idk, I'm not really all that troubled by mappers controlling what their AR is, or just what their map plays like in general. I just feel like it feels more fair, and gives an even playing field for those who try to rank high on the maps.
BUT, I would definitely love to be able to do unranked plays for songs after changing their AR.
You can do this if you want, it takes ~10 seconds to go change the AR in the edit mode, after which it's unranked. I've done it multiple times, it's a little out of the way but not too bad.
It's a gigantic pain to do that for every map you want to play at a higher AR though. Frankly, I think the whole argument about what constitutes something that should be ranked and something that shouldn't be ranked is retarded. I wouldn't mind AR modified runs being unranked as long as the local scores are still recorded. Ranking the way osu has it is a bonus, not something that should ever be seen as required for anything. hypothetically, if cookeizi only ever played unranked stuff, but was still better than whoever had the highest ranked score or PP, he should still be considered to best. For stepmania, we shared screenshots of our scores, there was no online ranking system, even with the clusterfuck that was stepmania online.
On September 14 2012 12:32 Xafnia wrote: AR is a "core mechanic". It allows you to have more notes on screen, which makes sight reading harder. If you don't like those maps, you don't have to play them.
How can AR be a core mechanic in osu, but not in DDR, In The Groove, Pump it Up, Stepania, O2jam, Beatmania, Popnmusic, Keyboardmania, Guitarmania, Drummania, DJMax, (yes, DDR, Popn, BM, KM, GM, and DM are all konami) and probably a few others I'm either forgetting or don't know of... Changing note speed, which is EXACTLY the same as AR (higher speeds = less notes on screen = faster reaction required) is allowed in every single one of those. How is it any different for osu? Because EBA/Ouendan didn't have it? Osu is not EBA/Ouendan. EBA/Ouendan is a game marketed for a casual gamer audience. Games marketed at casual audiences often lack many of the features which promote a competitive scene. Peppy has made it clear that he does wish to foster a competitive scene for osu, yet opposes changes which benefit the competitive scene. If one player is most comfortable at AR7, and another is most comfortable at AR9, it makes sense that the players should be allowed to play the same map at their desired speed in order to get a more direct comparison between their skill levels.
On September 14 2012 15:17 Bobbias wrote: How can AR be a core mechanic in osu, but not in DDR, In The Groove, Pump it Up, Stepania, O2jam, Beatmania, Popnmusic, Keyboardmania, Guitarmania, Drummania, DJMax, (yes, DDR, Popn, BM, KM, GM, and DM are all konami) and probably a few others I'm either forgetting or don't know of... Changing note speed, which is EXACTLY the same as AR (higher speeds = less notes on screen = faster reaction required) is allowed in every single one of those. How is it any different for osu? Because EBA/Ouendan didn't have it? Osu is not EBA/Ouendan. EBA/Ouendan is a game marketed for a casual gamer audience. Games marketed at casual audiences often lack many of the features which promote a competitive scene. Peppy has made it clear that he does wish to foster a competitive scene for osu, yet opposes changes which benefit the competitive scene.
Those games don't have on location based mapping patterns like back and forths, hidden notes, rotating and overlapping triangle/squares, chaotic clusterfucks of notes, etc. Also they don't have anything like Hard Rock. Just cause you have trouble with certain AR's doesn't mean there's something wrong with different ARs. Another way to put it is, amount on notes on screen in a non-issue in those games, because your fixing a single point and reacting based on that point.
On September 14 2012 15:17 Bobbias wrote: If one player is most comfortable at AR7, and another is most comfortable at AR9, it makes sense that the players should be allowed to play the same map at their desired speed in order to get a more direct comparison between their skill levels.
You could say the same about bpms, jumps, streams, stream spacing, pattern types etc.
I saw this game on supernovamaniac' stream. Looks pretty cool and I think it can be helpful to practice your mouse accuracy and speed.
I was wondering if you guys got some recommendations of 'beatmaps'? And are there beatmaps of games like starcraft, lost vikings, rock and roll racing, ... (cause I couldn't find any)
On September 14 2012 20:43 wcr.4fun wrote: I saw this game on supernovamaniac' stream. Looks pretty cool and I think it can be helpful to practice your mouse accuracy and speed.
I was wondering if you guys got some recommendations of 'beatmaps'? And are there beatmaps of games like starcraft, lost vikings, rock and roll racing, ... (cause I couldn't find any)
No blizzard music is ranked afaik.
If you post your ID and I see you on I can spectate and suggest maps.
On September 14 2012 20:43 wcr.4fun wrote: I saw this game on supernovamaniac' stream. Looks pretty cool and I think it can be helpful to practice your mouse accuracy and speed.
I was wondering if you guys got some recommendations of 'beatmaps'? And are there beatmaps of games like starcraft, lost vikings, rock and roll racing, ... (cause I couldn't find any)
No blizzard music is ranked afaik.
If you post your ID and I see you on I can spectate and suggest maps.
On September 14 2012 20:43 wcr.4fun wrote: I saw this game on supernovamaniac' stream. Looks pretty cool and I think it can be helpful to practice your mouse accuracy and speed.
I was wondering if you guys got some recommendations of 'beatmaps'? And are there beatmaps of games like starcraft, lost vikings, rock and roll racing, ... (cause I couldn't find any)
No blizzard music is ranked afaik.
If you post your ID and I see you on I can spectate and suggest maps.
Hey thanks very much. My id is "PuReJimiH". I already found a new cool band through osu, silvertide. I tried silvertide's Devil Daughter, the easy mode went fairly well. The normal mode was a bit harder, as of now I'm stuck somewhere in the middle.
On September 14 2012 20:43 wcr.4fun wrote: I saw this game on supernovamaniac' stream. Looks pretty cool and I think it can be helpful to practice your mouse accuracy and speed.
I was wondering if you guys got some recommendations of 'beatmaps'? And are there beatmaps of games like starcraft, lost vikings, rock and roll racing, ... (cause I couldn't find any)
No blizzard music is ranked afaik.
If you post your ID and I see you on I can spectate and suggest maps.
On September 14 2012 20:43 wcr.4fun wrote: I saw this game on supernovamaniac' stream. Looks pretty cool and I think it can be helpful to practice your mouse accuracy and speed.
I was wondering if you guys got some recommendations of 'beatmaps'? And are there beatmaps of games like starcraft, lost vikings, rock and roll racing, ... (cause I couldn't find any)
No blizzard music is ranked afaik.
If you post your ID and I see you on I can spectate and suggest maps.
Hey thanks very much. My id is "PuReJimiH". I already found a new cool band through osu, silvertide. I tried silvertide's Devil Daughter, the easy mode went fairly well. The normal mode was a bit harder, as of now I'm stuck somewhere in the middle.
On September 14 2012 20:43 wcr.4fun wrote: I saw this game on supernovamaniac' stream. Looks pretty cool and I think it can be helpful to practice your mouse accuracy and speed.
I was wondering if you guys got some recommendations of 'beatmaps'? And are there beatmaps of games like starcraft, lost vikings, rock and roll racing, ... (cause I couldn't find any)
No blizzard music is ranked afaik.
If you post your ID and I see you on I can spectate and suggest maps.
On September 14 2012 20:43 wcr.4fun wrote: I saw this game on supernovamaniac' stream. Looks pretty cool and I think it can be helpful to practice your mouse accuracy and speed.
I was wondering if you guys got some recommendations of 'beatmaps'? And are there beatmaps of games like starcraft, lost vikings, rock and roll racing, ... (cause I couldn't find any)
No blizzard music is ranked afaik.
If you post your ID and I see you on I can spectate and suggest maps.
Hey thanks very much. My id is "PuReJimiH". I already found a new cool band through osu, silvertide. I tried silvertide's Devil Daughter, the easy mode went fairly well. The normal mode was a bit harder, as of now I'm stuck somewhere in the middle.
On September 14 2012 20:43 wcr.4fun wrote: I saw this game on supernovamaniac' stream. Looks pretty cool and I think it can be helpful to practice your mouse accuracy and speed.
I was wondering if you guys got some recommendations of 'beatmaps'? And are there beatmaps of games like starcraft, lost vikings, rock and roll racing, ... (cause I couldn't find any)
No blizzard music is ranked afaik.
If you post your ID and I see you on I can spectate and suggest maps.
EPT
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Bgx5q.png)
