EPT[Game] Osu! - Page 161
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ktimekiller
United States690 Posts
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Heh_
Singapore2712 Posts
On August 05 2012 07:16 ktimekiller wrote: Why is everyone so concerned about pp and ranking? I totally butcher my rank and accuracy by playing dt on essentially everything that is dtable. As long as I am improving and enjoying it, who cares about pp? It is bound to be horribly flawed and caters to map farmers. Previously, you could see your score go up every time you completed a beatmap. Now, all I see is some stupid arbitrary number that ignores the scores on half of my beatmaps. Even if I put on the best performance of my life, peppy thinks it doesn't matter if I get rank 501. It completely destroys my motivation to play. | ||
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Camail
United States1030 Posts
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ktimekiller
United States690 Posts
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roym899
Germany426 Posts
On August 05 2012 07:30 Heh_ wrote: Previously, you could see your score go up every time you completed a beatmap. Now, all I see is some stupid arbitrary number that ignores the scores on half of my beatmaps. Even if I put on the best performance of my life, peppy thinks it doesn't matter if I get rank 501. It completely destroys my motivation to play. I think it's awesome. It motivates you to play a song more then just one time to get a higher rank. | ||
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Camail
United States1030 Posts
On August 05 2012 07:39 ktimekiller wrote: A measure of improvement should be visible through play. The rank metric would never properly represent it in a game like this given that there are far too many factors to consider. You say that, but to expect everyone to ignore stats is silly, to ask everyone to change the way they think and the way they understand the progress of their skill is also bad. Not only does the new ranking completely disconnect skill from rank (it wasn't a very good way to assess skill to begin with), but it actively influences you by giving no feedback whatsoever. I am talking about the game and its design, you are talking about people. And most people can't just ignore rank, its never going to happen. | ||
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Heh_
Singapore2712 Posts
On August 05 2012 07:40 roym899 wrote: I think it's awesome. It motivates you to play a song more then just one time to get a higher rank. When half of my beatmaps become instantly "worthless", I can't be bothered to bring all of them up. Differences between the two metrics: in the old one, your ranked score goes up even if it's a small improvement, and every beatmap matters. In the new one, peppy says "fuck you" if your rank is below 500. | ||
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ktimekiller
United States690 Posts
On August 05 2012 07:50 Camail wrote: You say that, but to expect everyone to ignore stats is silly, to ask everyone to change the way they think and the way they understand the progress of their skill is also bad. Not only does the new ranking completely disconnect skill from rank (it wasn't a very good way to assess skill to begin with), but it actively influences you by giving no feedback whatsoever. I am talking about the game and its design, you are talking about people. And most people can't just ignore rank, its never going to happen. What difference is there if the previous rank was a poor representation of skill, and so is the new revision of it? Why should you care about this new one if it is just as incompetent as the old system at telling skill of the player? Why give a fuck about numbers at all? I've seen my fair share of players that rank within the thousands but were absolute trash because they were map farmers. Forget about the rank and play and get better and stop qq. | ||
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Camail
United States1030 Posts
Anyway, you didn't read what I said; I said it wasn't a very good assessment. Now I say the new one is a complete detachment. Then I also said the new one is not only a complete detachment, but is actively creating stagnation within the ranks. This is why it is bad, this is why people don't like it. We have a right to talk about parts of the game, because rank is a part of the game just as much. Please stop swearing and reply diligently. | ||
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Heh_
Singapore2712 Posts
On August 05 2012 08:02 ktimekiller wrote: What difference is there if the previous rank was a poor representation of skill, and so is the new revision of it? Why should you care about this new one if it is just as incompetent as the old system at telling skill of the player? Why give a fuck about numbers at all? I've seen my fair share of players that rank within the thousands but were absolute trash because they were map farmers. Forget about the rank and play and get better and stop qq. You don't replace a broken system with something that's even more broken. More importantly, the old system was easy to understand. The new one is just pure unadulterated bullshit. If you're so self-motivated then keep on playing, don't waste your time posting here. =P | ||
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ktimekiller
United States690 Posts
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Heh_
Singapore2712 Posts
I'll put it this way: osu is mainly supported by donations. If the player base walks up and leave because of some utterly retarded changes, the game dies. | ||
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Denzil
United Kingdom4193 Posts
On August 05 2012 08:07 Camail wrote: You seem to be getting angry. Anyway, you didn't read what I said; I said it wasn't a very good assessment. Now I say the new one is a complete detachment. Then I also said the new one is not only a complete detachment, but is actively creating stagnation within the ranks. This is why it is bad, this is why people don't like it. We have a right to talk about parts of the game, because rank is a part of the game just as much. Please stop swearing and reply diligently. you know that not only are these 2 statements incorrect but they detract value from your argument right? @ Heh_ what are you implying? Sure the game runs on donations but unless I'm mistaken it doesn't state "because you have donated you will control the direction of the game" you're giving money to help support peppy make the game. Sure if the fanbase gets up and walks away the game dies, much the same as if the Warcraft fanbase gets up and walks away the game dies, doesn't mean they will. I'm not saying I agree with the system but much like the complainers in WoW we are in the minority | ||
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Heh_
Singapore2712 Posts
On August 05 2012 08:32 Denzil wrote: you know that not only are these 2 statements incorrect but they detract value from your argument right? @ Heh_ what are you implying? Sure the game runs on donations but unless I'm mistaken it doesn't state "because you have donated you will control the direction of the game" you're giving money to help support peppy make the game. Sure if the fanbase gets up and walks away the game dies, much the same as if the Warcraft fanbase gets up and walks away the game dies, doesn't mean they will. I'm not saying I agree with the system but much like the complainers in WoW we are in the minority People donate if they're happy with the game. If the people who donate get frustrated and walk away, osu WILL collapse. It's as good as controlling the direction of the game: If peppy doesn't stop fucking up the game, the game will die. Plain and simple. | ||
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MegaManEXE
United States845 Posts
Why do some people care about Taiko or CtB and not osu standard? Why do some people care more about making nice SBs and skins than actually playing? Why do some people like ridiculously hard maps designed to kill the player while others have fun playing more relaxing beatmaps? Why do some people like English songs and not Jpop or Kpop? Fact of the matter is that every single person who plays this game likes certain things about it and dislikes other things. It's personal preference. Why do you care what other people enjoy about this game? I think DT is a dumb mod but you and many others seem to enjoy it. Just as you play the game the way you want to, why do you have to trash people who care about their stats and play the game the way they want to? It's like people who play the hell out of single player games to get all the achievements so that their gamerscore goes up. In the end it's just a number, but it's a number that people can be proud of because it is indicative of how much they have invested into this game. Perhaps you don't care about this, but some people like to see progression. They want to see themselves as a top 500 player or what have you. The old ranking system rewarded progression by showing your total score and rank increase after every map you played. It was simple and straightforward, and although not accurate in terms of measuring skill, everybody knew the top players' names anyways. The new system is unnecessarily arbitrary, vague, and unrewarding to those seeking progression because it takes so long to update and peppy still has yet to truly explain exactly how it works. If you seriously cannot comprehend this simple fact then you should probably just leave the topic because you're wasting your own time and all of ours by continuing this pointless argument. | ||
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Xafnia
Canada874 Posts
On August 05 2012 09:50 Heh_ wrote: People donate if they're happy with the game. If the people who donate get frustrated and walk away, osu WILL collapse. It's as good as controlling the direction of the game: If peppy doesn't stop fucking up the game, the game will die. Plain and simple. Some players have already donated thousands FYI. On August 05 2012 08:07 Heh_ wrote: You don't replace a broken system with something that's even more broken. More importantly, the old system was easy to understand. The new one is just pure unadulterated bullshit. The new one is a decently accurate measure of skill, the old ranking system was a measure of how many different maps you bothered to FC. On August 05 2012 08:14 Heh_ wrote: Can't you understand? It may not be important to you, but it is to a lot of people. Why do people want to get into Grandmaster league so badly? Because it isn't a significant part in enjoying the game? PP is much closer to SC2s system than ranks were. Stagnant skill level = Stagnant SC2 ranks = Stagnant PP. On August 05 2012 10:42 MegaManEXE wrote: Perhaps you don't care about this, but some people like to see progression. They want to see themselves as a top 500 player or what have you. The old ranking system rewarded progression by showing your total score and rank increase after every map you played. It was simple and straightforward, and although not accurate in terms of measuring skill, everybody knew the top players' names anyways. The new system is unnecessarily arbitrary, vague, and unrewarding to those seeking progression because it takes so long to update and peppy still has yet to truly explain exactly how it works. . PP/"new accuracy" updates are realtime now. xP On July 31 2012 18:03 Camail wrote: Yet only top 500 scores matter, making a vast majority of the Osu! population have 0 use in the ranking system. It also does not account for people who only play maps maybe once or twice. They may not be so amazing that they FC the hardest maps on their first go, but they want to play new maps or different maps. They could theoretically be an amazing player and not meet the criteria of getting a valid PP rank. It encourages cheap, obsessive play and pigeon holes everyone in osu! to play a certain way if unless you ignore all of these ingame mechanics, which is easier said than done. He is encouraging people to be good at maps, rather than be good at the game. Even then, I find it so stupid to have a cut off rank. Why not make everything give you PP, low rank will give you like +1 but a top 40 would give you like 4k. Scale it up and don't make the main ranking system so useless to everyone who isn't in the upper echelon. Hell, even then there are a ton of problems. Amazing players will FC hard maps and get into top 500 with ease. And the really amazing players just DT+HD stuff and get top 10 in 1 play sometimes, it's kinda depressing. Edit: also, plenty of maps are hard to the point where you can get into top 500 without FC'ing them. The reason there are cut off ranks is because of limited computing power. Also, the pp ranks are more accurate as you get higher up. Top 100 is remarkably accurate. On Tue July 31 2012 2:05 Peppy wrote: I plan on making a fallback pp calculation for people with less top-500 records. I don't plan on increasing the number past 500 (because it begins to get both intensive to calculate, and less meaningful with the current algorithm) but do plan on allowing people without such records to still improve their pp to visible levels. This will likely work based on your ranks achieved (and possible ranked score). On August 05 2012 10:42 MegaManEXE wrote:They want to see themselves as a top 500 player or what have you. Now they actually have to be as good as the top 500 to get into the top 500. Honestly most of this PP whining is complaining that you can't increase your rank without increasing your skill, when the entire purpose of a ranking system, is to rank skill. On August 04 2012 22:49 Denzil wrote: Question How do you guys handle big combos, sometimes I'll be doing pretty well and I see I'm on a like 300 chain and suddenly my mouse moves 80% slower and every hit becomes stressful then I fuck it up and everything goes back to normal Also I do pretty fucking well when I zone out, does that occur to anyone else as well? Turn off stuff like combo fire if you have that on for one, lol. A huge part of it is as you improve, you will get large combos more often and it will feel normal to have a high combo, instead of rare and intense. Also, yea if your playing some super hard map, relative to your skill, and you get a huge combo/about to FC, your going to get an adrenaline rush if you care. | ||
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ThaZenith
Canada3116 Posts
On August 05 2012 11:19 Xafnia wrote: Honestly most of this PP whining is complaining that you can't increase your rank without increasing your skill. I think this is kinda true. Though farming maps for PP is still doable, just harder than farming for ranks. I think the 'alternate calculations' for lower skilled players (to give them an actual PP) might help a bit with the whining. And I personally like having high ranks/going for high ranks. Some might not, personal preference. On a random note, his PP recalculations are annoying me. My graph was nice and smooth for quite awhile, now he's making it look ugly.  | ||
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Camail
United States1030 Posts
Here's my first point. Yes, for the top 500 and people whoa re indeed very good at the game, this system is better. This system is very close to elo and idealistically could be good. But last time I checked there are a few more than 500 people. Maybe someone doesn't have the time to put into the game to FC all the hard maps? Does that mean they should be denied the ability to even have a rank? And what about all of the people, many more than the top 500, who re just on the border, who may get a 500 here or there on a hard map or might always bee on the very edge. It would be awesome if he had as much computing power as he wanted, but just because these could work as a universal ranking system with unlimited resources doesn't mean it is any better than the ranking system we had before. You argument is that we should be better so we can accommodate the ranking system....since when should the player base accommodate the game design? Its a shitty choice for the beginners and everyone who actually can't get into the top 500. And let me be even more clear so no one replies like an idiot. I do not care about my rank at all. That is irrelevant, I don't even play the game much anymore, I'm just pointing out terrible game design. Yes it should be hard to be the best, but it shouldn't be hard to exist. And to exist as a ranked player you have to get top 500's. Which, as the name implies, relatively few people can do. I still don't understand your argument. Because I can name a VERY common scenario where you raise our skill and NOT your rank with the new system. That example is EVERYONE who doesn't get top 500. All of the newcomers, all of the middle men, tens of thousands of people will keep getting better and get no in-game feedback or ranking feedback. You could just go by your point total and see yourself becoming better like the guy mentioned earlier, but like I said before, accommodate the player, we are paling a game. The game isn't playing us. We shouldn't have to ignore the giant numbers next to our name, there should not be a roadblock attempting to stop us from seeing progress. Whether it works or not. If the servers can't handle large scale PP then peppy is just giving up. He met an obstacle and decided to go with what he had instead of trying to figure out a way to use his limited resources in an efficient matter that would actually be useful to the entire community. | ||
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MegaManEXE
United States845 Posts
Elo in SC2 is a number that is easily understood: you win a game vs a skilled player, you get more elo, and you lose a game vs a bad player, you lose more elo, and so forth. This is further enhanced by the addition of leagues; you can be proud of being in Masters or Grandmasters if you make it there, and there are visible rankings within the divisions in each league so you can see yourself climbing the rankings as you play more and get better. It's a simple system that makes a lot of sense. Gamerscore is an indication of how many achievements you've gotten in all your XBox 360 games, and the harder achievements in any game are generally worth more points. It's easy to understand that the more you play and invest into a game and find all the secrets, the more points you will naturally get. Players can be proud of their gamerscore as an indication And then we come to pp. What is pp? It's a number that supposedly represents your skill level in this game relative to other players. Now this sounds like the elo system but it's not, because you don't get punished for playing badly, only rewarded for playing well (this is fine due to the single player nature of the game versus the multiplayer nature of SC2). Now how do you get pp? You place in the top 500 on "popular" or "difficult" maps. So not only is this system entirely useless and inaccurate for people who can't get in the top 500 on maps because they either aren't as good or don't play with mods, but it also is extremely vague. From the osu wiki: "Weighs difficult maps higher, using a unique formula based on publicly unavailable statistics." That's great, what the fuck does that even mean? Measuring a map's "difficulty" is entirely subjective for a lot of maps. Some people find Gold Dust jumps to be hard, some people don't. Some maps are "hard" because they're easy to sliderbreak or miss on so you can't get a FC, but otherwise are not very difficult. This makes someone's pp ranking become meaningless outside the top few hundred players because it's hard to quantify and therefore means less to someone looking to see statistical progression in the time and effort invested into this game. | ||
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JonsaBoy
Denmark457 Posts
One thing I'm certain of. There's definitely a ~500% increase in pp awarded if you play Gunther maps. | ||
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