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Stormgate, a next-generation RTS being developed by Blizzard and StarCraft II veterans at Frost Giant Studios, is starting pre-orders through Kickstarter. This includes various tiers of digital content, and also a physical, Collector's Edition of the game.
Digital Founder's Packs will include Heroes (analogous to co-op commanders from SC2), in-game cosmetics, and access to the Wave 1 Beta in February of 2024.
The physical Collector's Edition will include:
Access to 2024 Beta Wave 1 (planned to begin in February 2024)
All the contents of the Ultimate Founder's Pack upon the start of early access in 2024
One hero each from the Vanguard, Infernal, and yet-to-be revealed third faction
Vanguard Chapters 1, 2, & 3 campaign content
Cosmetic items: Army accent, fog of war accent, and chicken pet
Besides the Collector's Edition, pre-orders of various digital content also are available.
If you plan on purchasing the Collector's Edition or other Stormgate content, please consider purchasing it through the TL.net affiliate link above! TL.net will receive a small commission on the referral.
As community members may have reasonable concerns regarding the use of Kickstarter, Frost Giant have made the following statement:
Why Kickstarter?
Stormgate is fully funded to release. This Kickstarter is in part a response to fan requests for a way to purchase a physical Collector's Edition of Stormgate. We think we've put together a truly special collectible for our most dedicated supporters, but producing the Stormgate Collector's Edition will require a commitment from our players to cover our manufacturing costs. We have also received countless requests for beta access. Scaling online multiplayer testing for a massive audience can get very expensive--beyond what we can support without additional funding. This campaign will allow us to welcome many more players to playtest Stormgate as a reward for directly supporting the studio.
I'm really surprised that they didn't explain most of the rewards. They just listed... things... for the pledged tiers, but I don't know what they do, so I can't know if I want them. I guess I'll just get the free version of the game when it comes out, unless they go into more detail about what we're actually buying.
On December 06 2023 06:04 WGT-Baal wrote: So is the campaign going to be sold piecemeal or am I misreading this?
Just looks like the first bit is available at early access, but the entirety of the campaign will be available at official launch.
It doesn't look that way the $25 dollar one gets the first vanguard chapter the $60 dollar one gets 3 chapters. So it looks like it is coming out in chapters which require purchase
On December 06 2023 09:04 BronzeKnee wrote: Is the technology there yet for us to have LAN?
That's the real question.
Given it's free to play, I can practically guarantee you the answer is no.
I do not believe a live service game is viable for the long term success of an esport.
Aren't League of Legends and Valorant live service games?
Anyway, I feel like it's sort of hard to justify purchasing these packs when we have no idea how much content / value is in a Vanguard Campaign chapter. All the rewards here feel super vague, which makes me feel not great about backing it.
Scam? Nah It's just very underwhelming product currently, if you can even call it that.
You can't really fault the cash grab with how mindless your average consumer is (eg. see D4 launch 'early access'. The current game still feels like a pre-beta state and they're already polling users so that they can milk the first "expansion" for maximum value. It's comical really. Literally issues from the original beta and alpha that have been acknowledged by their team publicly, with easy fixes that are being intentionally disregarded so they can be pushed off as expansion 'features'.)
But back on topic, nothing feels innovative outside of the reconnect feature.
I await the comedy that will arise when someone slaps the current game as a sc2 custom.
I'm hoping for the best but it's a little disheartening to see the monetization angle with how things stand now.
On December 06 2023 09:04 BronzeKnee wrote: Is the technology there yet for us to have LAN?
That's the real question.
Given it's free to play, I can practically guarantee you the answer is no.
I do not believe a live service game is viable for the long term success of an esport.
Aren't League of Legends and Valorant live service games?
Anyway, I feel like it's sort of hard to justify purchasing these packs when we have no idea how much content / value is in a Vanguard Campaign chapter. All the rewards here feel super vague, which makes me feel not great about backing it.
Same! I really want to believe in this game and this would have been my first Kickstarter ever but it's so goddamn vague. What is the campagin, how long, how many campaign chapters are there, whats the normal price tag for a chapter? Guess I just have to wait and see.
Edit: Doesn't matter anyway. Goal is reached 7 seven times already
On December 06 2023 16:28 UretArds441 wrote: 99% of kickstarter always feels like a scam, happy its the same here
I've found Kickstarter to be generally reliable and not scammy. I doubt that the Stormgate Kickstarter is scammy, but I just wish the pledge rewards were made clearer. People definitely support the game and the RTS genre, but they also don't really know what they're paying for through these backer-levels.
On December 06 2023 09:04 BronzeKnee wrote: Is the technology there yet for us to have LAN?
That's the real question.
Given it's free to play, I can practically guarantee you the answer is no.
I do not believe a live service game is viable for the long term success of an esport.
Aren't League of Legends and Valorant live service games?
Anyway, I feel like it's sort of hard to justify purchasing these packs when we have no idea how much content / value is in a Vanguard Campaign chapter. All the rewards here feel super vague, which makes me feel not great about backing it.
Yeah, also keep in mind a good chunk of SC2 problems was holding back updates/features to put on the back of the box for Starcraft II expansions, while LoL was blowing up.
On December 06 2023 16:28 UretArds441 wrote: 99% of kickstarter always feels like a scam, happy its the same here
I've found Kickstarter to be generally reliable and not scammy. I doubt that the Stormgate Kickstarter is scammy, but I just wish the pledge rewards were made clearer. People definitely support the game and the RTS genre, but they also don't really know what they're paying for through these backer-levels.
Frost Giant labelling this as "Crafting the Future of RTS Together" is a big stretch.
This does not indicate fraud though. It is a big exaggeration and they can get a small # of people to agree with it and really believe that , not too different from Avilo, they are "making RTS great again" by giving Frost Giant money.
Frost Giant has been ambiguous regarding the exact nature of the rewards and the exact feature set of the game. However, we get to watch a bunch of people play the game that definitely exists right now. A skeptical consumer can just decide based off of what they see. Exaggeration and possibly big exaggeration... sure. Fraud/scam? nah.
On December 06 2023 16:28 UretArds441 wrote: 99% of kickstarter always feels like a scam, happy its the same here
I've found Kickstarter to be generally reliable and not scammy. I doubt that the Stormgate Kickstarter is scammy, but I just wish the pledge rewards were made clearer. People definitely support the game and the RTS genre, but they also don't really know what they're paying for through these backer-levels.
Frost Giant labelling this as "Crafting the Future of RTS Together" is a big stretch.
This does not indicate fraud though. It is a big exaggeration and they can get a small # of people to agree with it and really believe that , not too different from Avilo, they are "making RTS great again" by giving Frost Giant money.
I think that quote is just driving hype. Whether or not the game ends up being disappointing is different from whether or not the Kickstarter is a literal scam.
On December 07 2023 04:42 JimmyJRaynor wrote: i use the term fraud rather than scam because it is a more precise and less derogatory/inflammatory term.
I don't know if calling someone a fraud is better than calling them a scammer (doesn't fraud even imply legality, potentially making it worse?), but I think it's just semantics and subjective at this point.
On December 06 2023 21:42 Swisslink wrote: What's the problem with the monetization? It's the same as SC2. And I haven't heard many people criticizing SC2 for its monetization.
SC2 didn't have any in game transactions for quite awhile, as a completed game. Also it's just cosmetics or voice packs, not features or access. This is perfectly fine, and doesn't apply to the issue at hand.
Which happens to be: - Ambiguous and/or meaningless "rewards" that just come off as disingenuous. - Paying for beta access (not to mention noting that there are "limited" spots.) Maybe it's just the boomer in me that still thinks it's wild that nowadays people pay companies to test their product, when traditionally it's been the reverse.
- $150 for your name to be included in credits (totaling $350 for the collectors edition that does NOT include shipping). This one personally rubs me the wrong way, just being advertised like this. If a creator wants to include this as a genuine 'thank you' for backing their product and development, that is acceptable. If it's an unfathomable amount of people that donated then just draw a line of including the top X%, but do it silently, and don't announce it. There are people that will absolutely pay for this - just because it is mentioned in this way, which is just absolutely unnecessary and undermines people that would do this in good faith to be supportive.
There are a handful more issues but these are probably the most glaring.
On December 06 2023 21:42 Swisslink wrote: What's the problem with the monetization? It's the same as SC2. And I haven't heard many people criticizing SC2 for its monetization.
SC2 didn't have any in game transactions for quite awhile, as a completed game. Also it's just cosmetics or voice packs, not features or access. This is perfectly fine, and doesn't apply to the issue at hand.
StarCraft II had a guaranteed beta access for the pre order. I don't really see the difference between getting beta access for pre ordering the campaign (Stormgate) and getting beta access for pre ordering the game (StarCraft iI)
And yes, StarCraft II had a different type of monetization initially. Which, whether we like it or not, turned out to be a mistake in terms of longevity of the game.
I know people like to hate against the Live Service Games, but in most genres these games ended up outpacing the boxed-price games in terms of competitive play.
Which happens to be: - Ambiguous and/or meaningless "rewards" that just come off as disingenuous.
Wait... I know what I'm getting. I get the three first chapters of the campaign, I get one hero for each faction. I get beta access and I get the game a week early. How are these rewards ambiguous?
- Paying for beta access (not to mention noting that there are "limited" spots.)
As mentioned: that's also the case for most boxed games with a closed beta. And yes, every pack is limited. Isn't that quite normal on Kickstarter? Or are they usually unlimited?
Maybe it's just the boomer in me that still thinks it's wild that nowadays people pay companies to test their product, when traditionally it's been the reverse.
How would you like them to distribute the keys? I mean... yes, it's weird how much they pay for beta access. But people usually pay hundreds of dollars for a beta key if the developer does not provide them with a system like this. I just remember the hype surrounding older World of WarCraft (no idea if that's still the case) beta keys or Hearthstone, where people were starving for the keys, throwing money at the ones that were lucky enough to get one.I think providing people with a structured way of getting access makes more sense than that.
In the end, Stormgate will have a completely free to play 1v1. Just as StarCraft. Stormgate will have a paid campaign. Just like StarCraft. And they'll sell the heroes for co-op and 3v3. Just like StarCraft. For StarCraft II the introduction of this type of nonetization revitalized the game quite a bit and we shouldn't be surprised they decided to go with the exact same thing for Stormgate.
I'm slightly confused. For example: does Founder's Pack (25$) include actual game, or just access to Preview Week? Or is the Free to Play tag on Steam correct and the game will structure revenue around microtransactions?
Not sure why I bother humoring obvious bait but in case you actually need elaboration:
On December 07 2023 16:01 Swisslink wrote: StarCraft II had a guaranteed beta access for the pre order. I don't really see the difference between getting beta access for pre ordering the campaign (Stormgate) and getting beta access for pre ordering the game (StarCraft iI)
And yes, StarCraft II had a different type of monetization initially. Which, whether we like it or not, turned out to be a mistake in terms of longevity of the game.
I know people like to hate against the Live Service Games, but in most genres these games ended up outpacing the boxed-price games in terms of competitive play.
If you completely disregard that one was a pay to play title and also was one of the last titles of modern times to have a true 'beta' test, and not perpetual development/early access/etc., then sure. Otherwise, the access was free added value to anyone who wished to go ahead and purchase the game.
Which happens to be: - Ambiguous and/or meaningless "rewards" that just come off as disingenuous.
Wait... I know what I'm getting. I get the three first chapters of the campaign, I get one hero for each faction. I get beta access and I get the game a week early. How are these rewards ambiguous?
"X hero" "Y Hero" "Mystery Hero" "Undescribed Cosmetic" Hell even the some of the graphics have black silhouettes with question marks LOL.
- Paying for beta access (not to mention noting that there are "limited" spots.)
As mentioned: that's also the case for most boxed games with a closed beta. And yes, every pack is limited. Isn't that quite normal on Kickstarter? Or are they usually unlimited?
Maybe it's just the boomer in me that still thinks it's wild that nowadays people pay companies to test their product, when traditionally it's been the reverse.
How would you like them to distribute the keys? I mean... yes, it's weird how much they pay for beta access. But people usually pay hundreds of dollars for a beta key if the developer does not provide them with a system like this. I just remember the hype surrounding older World of WarCraft (no idea if that's still the case) beta keys or Hearthstone, where people were starving for the keys, throwing money at the ones that were lucky enough to get one.I think providing people with a structured way of getting access makes more sense than that.
In the end, Stormgate will have a completely free to play 1v1. Just as StarCraft. Stormgate will have a paid campaign. Just like StarCraft. And they'll sell the heroes for co-op and 3v3. Just like StarCraft. For StarCraft II the introduction of this type of nonetization revitalized the game quite a bit and we shouldn't be surprised they decided to go with the exact same thing for Stormgate.
Again, a boxed game having potential added value is not an issue, and is typically going into making that product better.
Just because something is practiced eg.) ["early access"/"preview week"] (such as D4 launch) doesn't detract from the fact that it's bad faith move in order to extract the most money possible. It's purely a greedy and predatory practice that adds no value to the finished product.
Creators and developers are free to distribute their beta access however they please. A true lottery system would be ideal in a perfect world but in today's world with bots and the like it makes it very difficult. A Beta test should be exactly that - a test to get the product in the best state that it can be, not an extended monetization scheme. As long as it is transparent and for that purpose there is never going to be an issue.
I was actually very pleased upon checking the page again that most of the slots had still not been claimed. However many things could contribute to this such as: Lack of exposure, the less than ideal streamer showcase yesterday, the number of available recipients could be masked/not transparent, etc.
On December 07 2023 16:50 nimdil wrote: I'm slightly confused. For example: does Founder's Pack (25$) include actual game, or just access to Preview Week? Or is the Free to Play tag on Steam correct and the game will structure revenue around microtransactions?
'Preview Week' is like the 3 days of early access Diablo 4 had. The game is 'F2P' except for certain features. Guaranteed beta is $40.
There are 3 different reward tiers that include being able to name a unit and there are 700 maximum people that can purchase it. Not sure how that will be possible even if they are campaign units.
On December 07 2023 16:01 Swisslink wrote: StarCraft II had a guaranteed beta access for the pre order. I don't really see the difference between getting beta access for pre ordering the campaign (Stormgate) and getting beta access for pre ordering the game (StarCraft iI)
And yes, StarCraft II had a different type of monetization initially. Which, whether we like it or not, turned out to be a mistake in terms of longevity of the game.
I know people like to hate against the Live Service Games, but in most genres these games ended up outpacing the boxed-price games in terms of competitive play.
If you completely disregard that one was a pay to play title and also was one of the last titles of modern times to have a true 'beta' test, and not perpetual development/early access/etc., then sure. Otherwise, the access was free added value to anyone who wished to go ahead and purchase the game.
Which happens to be: - Ambiguous and/or meaningless "rewards" that just come off as disingenuous.
Wait... I know what I'm getting. I get the three first chapters of the campaign, I get one hero for each faction. I get beta access and I get the game a week early. How are these rewards ambiguous?
"X hero" "Y Hero" "Mystery Hero" "Undescribed Cosmetic" Hell even the some of the graphics have black silhouettes with question marks LOL.
- Paying for beta access (not to mention noting that there are "limited" spots.)
As mentioned: that's also the case for most boxed games with a closed beta. And yes, every pack is limited. Isn't that quite normal on Kickstarter? Or are they usually unlimited?
Maybe it's just the boomer in me that still thinks it's wild that nowadays people pay companies to test their product, when traditionally it's been the reverse.
How would you like them to distribute the keys? I mean... yes, it's weird how much they pay for beta access. But people usually pay hundreds of dollars for a beta key if the developer does not provide them with a system like this. I just remember the hype surrounding older World of WarCraft (no idea if that's still the case) beta keys or Hearthstone, where people were starving for the keys, throwing money at the ones that were lucky enough to get one.I think providing people with a structured way of getting access makes more sense than that.
In the end, Stormgate will have a completely free to play 1v1. Just as StarCraft. Stormgate will have a paid campaign. Just like StarCraft. And they'll sell the heroes for co-op and 3v3. Just like StarCraft. For StarCraft II the introduction of this type of nonetization revitalized the game quite a bit and we shouldn't be surprised they decided to go with the exact same thing for Stormgate.
Again, a boxed game having potential added value is not an issue, and is typically going into making that product better.
Just because something is practiced eg.) ["early access"/"preview week"] (such as D4 launch) doesn't detract from the fact that it's bad faith move in order to extract the most money possible. It's purely a greedy and predatory practice that adds no value to the finished product.
Creators and developers are free to distribute their beta access however they please. A true lottery system would be ideal in a perfect world but in today's world with bots and the like it makes it very difficult. A Beta test should be exactly that - a test to get the product in the best state that it can be, not an extended monetization scheme. As long as it is transparent and for that purpose there is never going to be an issue.
I was actually very pleased upon checking the page again that most of the slots had still not been claimed. However many things could contribute to this such as: Lack of exposure, the less than ideal streamer showcase yesterday, the number of available recipients could be masked/not transparent, etc.
On December 07 2023 16:50 nimdil wrote: I'm slightly confused. For example: does Founder's Pack (25$) include actual game, or just access to Preview Week? Or is the Free to Play tag on Steam correct and the game will structure revenue around microtransactions?
'Preview Week' is like the 3 days of early access Diablo 4 had. The game is 'F2P' except for certain features. Guaranteed beta is $40.
The main issue I have with this is that their monetarisation as a whole is unclear.# If they would just state which parts are F2P, what are the MTX options and costs (Skins, Heroes, Voice packs, whatever) as well as what the price tag for a campaign chapter is and how much average playtime it involves. If all the above were clear than the Kickstarter would be perfectly fine and comparable to SC2 box sale.
Right now it's a bit off guesswork: 1$ - 5$ is purely supportive 25$ you get the paid campaign 1st chapter (final price tag unknown)+ Hero (final price tag unknown) + cosmetics (final price tag unknow) + early access 40$ the above + two more Heroes + pet (price tag? use?) 60$ the above + two more campaign chapters (of how many?) . .
It kinda feeds on the FOMO which is a bit bad faith BUT the early access /beta /preview week is like you described just an addition and not the main sale argument, just like in so many other examples mentioned before. At least that is my impression
EDIT: I'm truly hoping they'll make it a bit more clear with the next announcements before I jump on that. Kickstarter last 56 more days
The 3rd faction is not done yet. I recall in February 2009 Browder stated they were just polishing off the Zerg and they were in the "final stretch" of development. The game did not come out for another 18 months and the massive beta started 13 months after his statement. LOL.
On December 07 2023 20:54 Harris1st wrote: It kinda feeds on the FOMO which is a bit bad faith BUT the early access /beta /preview week is like you described just an addition and not the main sale argument, just like in so many other examples mentioned before. At least that is my impression
you've got a good point.
On December 07 2023 20:54 Harris1st wrote: If they would just state which parts are F2P, what are the MTX options and costs (Skins, Heroes, Voice packs, whatever) as well as what the price tag for a campaign chapter is and how much average playtime it involves. If all the above were clear than the Kickstarter would be perfectly fine and comparable to SC2 box sale.
EDIT: I'm truly hoping they'll make it a bit more clear with the next announcements before I jump on that. Kickstarter last 56 more days
i suspect Frost Giant is not fully certain of their exact financial situation. As a result, they do not know what the prices will be. Similarly, they are uncertain of their production capabilities and so they can't give out a well defined feature set.
Epic gets 5%. Steam gets 30%. The employees gotta get paid and at this stage of their careers these guys ain't cheap. The CEO, Tim Morten, has got a tough job. The mass wave of layoffs in the industry helps Frost Giant though.
A lot of this is ... "trust me bro". I'd say almost none of it is "malice".
On December 07 2023 16:50 nimdil wrote: I'm slightly confused. For example: does Founder's Pack (25$) include actual game, or just access to Preview Week? Or is the Free to Play tag on Steam correct and the game will structure revenue around microtransactions?
The core "actual game" is free to play. The stuff on kickstarter and $$ is all extras.
On December 07 2023 23:44 KameZerg wrote: This doesn't look very original it simply looks like Warcraft and Starcraft mashed up into a new game.
scouting units like Dogs. Bunkers that adjust to the unit entering them ... co-op campaign ... 20 second main base upgrade tech levels.... veterancy mechanics motivating players to keep their units alive.... this game is heavily influenced by C&C.
Also, the effective "tick rate" of the game is 3 times the current best tick rate of any RTS. they are innovating in ways we can not see on a promo video.
I think this is going to make maintaining servers costly. Keeping lag super low to take advantage of the amazing "tick rate" will be expensive. ... that's going to be an issue. It is why we have a KickStarter.
I don't think it changes server costs all that much, if at all. The tick rate is the simulation tick rate and the game is simulated by the client, not the server. Server just relays inputs and the rate at which it will relay inputs is based on ping. I don't think tick rate changes things in that regard.
the SG client reports to the SG server 60 times per second whereas the SC2 client reports to the server 24 times per second. Therefore, lower lat\ency is required to take advantage of the potentially better responsiveness built into Stormgate's client. This requires a more expensive server set up.
Rollback netcode will not be able to predict intricate micro like marine splitting or sophisticated spell casting. So, low latency to the server is required to take advantage of the higher refresh rate with the server. https://blog.hathora.dev/1-million-ccu/
the SG client reports to the SG server 60 times per second whereas the SC2 client reports to the server 24 times per second
The client tickrate is (up to?) 64hz (Stormgate) and locked 22.4hz (SC2 Faster/LOTV), but communication with server and handling commands is a very complex topic. It's not neccesarily the same.
Your source indicates that the client/server communication doesn't happen at any specific "turn" or "tick" at all, with rollback picking up the loose ends:
"However, in Stormgate there are no turns, as soon as a player sends an input the server timestamps it and sends it to everyone in the game. Meanwhile, the game will simulate the match based on the inputs and then continue simulating, assuming no new inputs are arriving. If the game is correct, then everything continues running smoothly and if new inputs are received, it can very quickly rollback, understand the input, and fast forward again, without negatively affecting what the player sees. "
On December 08 2023 07:08 JimmyJRaynor wrote: the SG client reports to the SG server 60 times per second whereas the SC2 client reports to the server 24 times per second. Therefore, lower lat\ency is required to take advantage of the potentially better responsiveness built into Stormgate's client. This requires a more expensive server set up.
Rollback netcode will not be able to predict intricate micro like marine splitting or sophisticated spell casting. So, low latency to the server is required to take advantage of the higher refresh rate with the server. https://blog.hathora.dev/1-million-ccu/
Maybe but RTS networking only sends inputs back and forth. Data being sent is not large. It is not sending the game state like an FPS would.
On December 07 2023 16:50 nimdil wrote: I'm slightly confused. For example: does Founder's Pack (25$) include actual game, or just access to Preview Week? Or is the Free to Play tag on Steam correct and the game will structure revenue around microtransactions?
The core "actual game" is free to play. The stuff on kickstarter and $$ is all extras.
Well yes and no. I imagine for a lot of people the campaign and story is the actual game and they will never touch ladder/ ranked
On December 07 2023 18:57 YueY. wrote: There are 3 different reward tiers that include being able to name a unit and there are 700 maximum people that can purchase it. Not sure how that will be possible even if they are campaign units.
Yes! Someone please explain how 700 units will be named.
On December 07 2023 18:57 YueY. wrote: There are 3 different reward tiers that include being able to name a unit and there are 700 maximum people that can purchase it. Not sure how that will be possible even if they are campaign units.
Yes! Someone please explain how 700 units will be named.
My guess is that those "units" will probably be NPCs or brief cameo characters or neutral map units (like the ursadon), not actual army units that you can create/train/build and use in the game for battles.
A lot of the explanations are not well fleshed out. As a result, we are left guessing about a lot of stuff. There is lots of guess work going on about other aspects of these tiers by several people.
It seems FG hastily jammed this Kickstarter together. This is an indicator this money raising initiative occurs under some form of duress rather than some organic feel-good thing. Time will tell.
On December 08 2023 23:12 JimmyJRaynor wrote: A lot of the explanations are not well fleshed out. As a result, we are left guessing about a lot of stuff. There is lots of guess work going on about other aspects of these tiers by several people.
It seems FG hastily jammed this Kickstarter together. This is an indicator this money raising initiative occurs under some form of duress rather than some organic feel-good thing. Time will tell.
That might be the case, but you might also be surprised just how many ambiguous Kickstarters are out there, including ones that still end up having a lot of support anyway. It might be less about duress and more about not asking potential customers to look at what was written up ahead of time and anticipating/addressing any FAQs.
I mean, I'm all for the new RTS bandwagon hype but damn, that looks like a mobile game at most. And judging by only watching a couple of YT vids, all I see is a clusterfuck ;d
On December 07 2023 18:57 YueY. wrote: There are 3 different reward tiers that include being able to name a unit and there are 700 maximum people that can purchase it. Not sure how that will be possible even if they are campaign units.
Yes! Someone please explain how 700 units will be named.
My guess is that those "units" will probably be NPCs or brief cameo characters or neutral map units (like the ursadon), not actual army units that you can create/train/build and use in the game for battles.
Yeah but there are also rewards to become a NPC and that’s another 400 people. We’ll just have to wait and see.
On December 07 2023 18:57 YueY. wrote: There are 3 different reward tiers that include being able to name a unit and there are 700 maximum people that can purchase it. Not sure how that will be possible even if they are campaign units.
Yes! Someone please explain how 700 units will be named.
It's probably tacking a name on a unit. I.e. this marine is named Jeff.
On December 07 2023 18:57 YueY. wrote: There are 3 different reward tiers that include being able to name a unit and there are 700 maximum people that can purchase it. Not sure how that will be possible even if they are campaign units.
Yes! Someone please explain how 700 units will be named.
It's probably tacking a name on a unit. I.e. this marine is named Jeff.
Yeah, I’m sure Myth 2 isn’t the only strategy game where every unit has a name, merely the only one I’ve played. Was a nice immersive touch so I’d assume it’s something like that.
On December 11 2023 08:45 Leonix wrote: Why is there so much hype around this game"Stormgate", what genre is it actually ?
It's an RTS game? I thought that was obvious.
There is hype because Blizzard Entertainment isn't interested in developing RTS games anymore, and this seems to be the next big thing in the genre, as the studio behind it has people from SC2/Wc3/CnC.
Sorry, as much as Frostgiant has been fondling the RTS community's balls and as much I'd like to support them, I'm simply not pre-ordering anything anymore, that ship has sailed a long time ago.
In addition to that I'd agree with people that already pointed out how vague the supporter tiers are, I also don't want to support the f2p business model in general, give me a complete game I can churn out $60-70 bucks for and leave me alone with all the FOMO and GaaS stuff.
On December 11 2023 08:45 Leonix wrote: Why is there so much hype around this game"Stormgate", what genre is it actually ?
It's an RTS game? I thought that was obvious.
There is hype because Blizzard Entertainment isn't interested in developing RTS games anymore, and this seems to be the next big thing in the genre, as the studio behind it has people from SC2/Wc3/CnC.
On December 14 2023 00:24 Creager wrote: Sorry, as much as Frostgiant has been fondling the RTS community's balls and as much I'd like to support them, I'm simply not pre-ordering anything anymore, that ship has sailed a long time ago.
In addition to that I'd agree with people that already pointed out how vague the supporter tiers are, I also don't want to support the f2p business model in general, give me a complete game I can churn out $60-70 bucks for and leave me alone with all the FOMO and GaaS stuff.
To add to your post. THeir biggest financial backer is complete and total scum. No big surprise their first revenue generating move is ethically ambiguous while Tim Morten tells us he is our "friend".
Kakao rips off working class Koreans by the thousands every single day. They have been entangled in numerous scams for years. All they do is apologize then move on to fucking over more people.
On December 14 2023 00:24 Creager wrote: Sorry, as much as Frostgiant has been fondling the RTS community's balls and as much I'd like to support them, I'm simply not pre-ordering anything anymore, that ship has sailed a long time ago.
In addition to that I'd agree with people that already pointed out how vague the supporter tiers are, I also don't want to support the f2p business model in general, give me a complete game I can churn out $60-70 bucks for and leave me alone with all the FOMO and GaaS stuff.
To add to your post. THeir biggest financial backer is complete and total scum. No big surprise their first revenue generating move is ethically ambiguous while Tim Morten tells us he is our "friend".
Kakao rips off working class Koreans by the thousands every single day. They have been entangled in numerous scams for years. All they do is apologize then move on to fucking over more people.
When this house of cards goes sideways I don't want to hear from all the "shocked and stunned" employees. Everyone knows Kakao is scum.
This feels very cynical and speculative re: frost giant. Kakao is a huge company, there are scandals but idk if they are ‘scum’ or if there is any evidence they have anything to do with this kickstarter.
I think we’re not used to seeing a new studio attempt to make a triple A rts from the ground up, and a lot of this is growing pains. We’ve seen 0 indication of bad faith, other than clearly figuring figuring out, and needing to work on design elements.
They’re trying to adjust to new ways of monetizing esports, I also prefer boxed games, but think it’s smart/correct that they’re trying to figure out how to make an rts competitive and profitable in this new world of f2p micro transactions. It seems to me the team is great and is working hard…
On December 11 2023 08:45 Leonix wrote: Why is there so much hype around this game"Stormgate", what genre is it actually ?
It's an RTS game? I thought that was obvious.
There is hype because Blizzard Entertainment isn't interested in developing RTS games anymore, and this seems to be the next big thing in the genre, as the studio behind it has people from SC2/Wc3/CnC.
I meant like Fantasy, scifi, etc.
It’s a blend of sci-fi/fantasy! Space human race (sci-fi) , infernal/demons (fantasy), and some unknown third. This far the concept art seems cool.
On December 14 2023 00:24 Creager wrote: Sorry, as much as Frostgiant has been fondling the RTS community's balls and as much I'd like to support them, I'm simply not pre-ordering anything anymore, that ship has sailed a long time ago.
In addition to that I'd agree with people that already pointed out how vague the supporter tiers are, I also don't want to support the f2p business model in general, give me a complete game I can churn out $60-70 bucks for and leave me alone with all the FOMO and GaaS stuff.
To add to your post. THeir biggest financial backer is complete and total scum. No big surprise their first revenue generating move is ethically ambiguous while Tim Morten tells us he is our "friend".
Kakao rips off working class Koreans by the thousands every single day. They have been entangled in numerous scams for years. All they do is apologize then move on to fucking over more people.
When this house of cards goes sideways I don't want to hear from all the "shocked and stunned" employees. Everyone knows Kakao is scum.
This feels very cynical and speculative re: frost giant. Kakao is a huge company, there are scandals but idk if they are ‘scum’ or if there is any evidence they have anything to do with this kickstarter.
I think we’re not used to seeing a new studio attempt to make a triple A rts from the ground up, and a lot of this is growing pains. We’ve seen 0 indication of bad faith, other than clearly figuring figuring out, and needing to work on design elements.
They’re trying to adjust to new ways of monetizing esports, I also prefer boxed games, but think it’s smart/correct that they’re trying to figure out how to make an rts competitive and profitable in this new world of f2p micro transactions. It seems to me the team is great and is working hard…
I’m a fan of the boxed method. Well, usually a digital purchase these days as cool boxes aren’t really a thing anymore.
I think that 100% would be fine with the existing RTS veterans, and I think Stormgate would be a lock to sell pretty well. I mean they’ve already made a million+ on Kickstarter alone, many of whom I imagine are throwing down just to get on the beta.
I just don’t see my kiddo saving his pocket money to throw down retail price on a game he’d probably dig, but only because his old man introduced him to StarCraft, and his mates are even less likely to because few of their parents are big RTS nerds.
So I think to attract a sizeable new audience it’s really a road they have to go down, I guess the tricky part is monetising with that model as RTS isn’t as neat a fit for it as a Fortnite
The problem is, if you buy a boxed game you don't expect/ want to invest any more money in that game. That is fine for singleplayer games but todays multiplayer games just don't work like that anymore. Upkeep in infrastructure and manpower is high and you want updates/ content/ balancing on the regular as well. The F2P model gets you a higher base community and hopefully a somewhat steady income over a long period of time
On December 18 2023 17:31 tili wrote: I think we’re not used to seeing a new studio attempt to make a triple A rts from the ground up, and a lot of this is growing pains. We’ve seen 0 indication of bad faith, other than clearly figuring figuring out, and needing to work on design elements.
Off the top of my head, in 2013 Victory Games was a new studio and they tried to make C&C Generals 2 from the ground up. Publicly , everything was going great. EA pulled the plug a few years into development.
HOWEVER, yesterday's demonstration showed us Stormgate is in much better shape than C&C Generals 2 ever was. I recommend ignoring what developers/salesmen at GamerCons say and only go by their actions and direct evidence. Last night showed the public that Stormgate is in much better shape than C&C Generals 2.
Both Victory Games and Frost Giant have pretty similar PR stances. Again, I think what people say is meaningless. Over the last 50 years there have been a million of these gamer con events where everything is great.
I suggest ignoring the show and make money decisions based on what you see in the game play. The game looks solid to me. Does it look like the testers are having fun? I'd say "yes". There are people saying Stormgate looks like a "phone game" and the testers seem not very excited. For those people I'd suggest they wait until they can play it themselves for free on Steam.
Fortunately, the Kickstarter lasts another 45 days so any one wanting in on the beta can gather more a lot more information before deciding whether or not to buy in.
On December 11 2023 08:45 Leonix wrote: Why is there so much hype around this game"Stormgate", what genre is it actually ?
It's an RTS game? I thought that was obvious.
There is hype because Blizzard Entertainment isn't interested in developing RTS games anymore, and this seems to be the next big thing in the genre, as the studio behind it has people from SC2/Wc3/CnC.
I meant like Fantasy, scifi, etc.
It’s a blend of sci-fi/fantasy! Space human race (sci-fi) , infernal/demons (fantasy), and some unknown third. This far the concept art seems cool.
Concept art is fine and this may just be me, but I honestly feel this game looks worse than SC2. The Blizzard RTS excelled in visual clarity in a way I don't see in Stormgate footage and gameplay
On December 14 2023 00:24 Creager wrote: Sorry, as much as Frostgiant has been fondling the RTS community's balls and as much I'd like to support them, I'm simply not pre-ordering anything anymore, that ship has sailed a long time ago.
In addition to that I'd agree with people that already pointed out how vague the supporter tiers are, I also don't want to support the f2p business model in general, give me a complete game I can churn out $60-70 bucks for and leave me alone with all the FOMO and GaaS stuff.
To add to your post. THeir biggest financial backer is complete and total scum. No big surprise their first revenue generating move is ethically ambiguous while Tim Morten tells us he is our "friend".
Kakao rips off working class Koreans by the thousands every single day. They have been entangled in numerous scams for years. All they do is apologize then move on to fucking over more people.
When this house of cards goes sideways I don't want to hear from all the "shocked and stunned" employees. Everyone knows Kakao is scum.
This feels very cynical and speculative re: frost giant. Kakao is a huge company, there are scandals but idk if they are ‘scum’ or if there is any evidence they have anything to do with this kickstarter.
I think we’re not used to seeing a new studio attempt to make a triple A rts from the ground up, and a lot of this is growing pains. We’ve seen 0 indication of bad faith, other than clearly figuring figuring out, and needing to work on design elements.
They’re trying to adjust to new ways of monetizing esports, I also prefer boxed games, but think it’s smart/correct that they’re trying to figure out how to make an rts competitive and profitable in this new world of f2p micro transactions. It seems to me the team is great and is working hard…
I’m a fan of the boxed method. Well, usually a digital purchase these days as cool boxes aren’t really a thing anymore.
I think that 100% would be fine with the existing RTS veterans, and I think Stormgate would be a lock to sell pretty well. I mean they’ve already made a million+ on Kickstarter alone, many of whom I imagine are throwing down just to get on the beta.
I just don’t see my kiddo saving his pocket money to throw down retail price on a game he’d probably dig, but only because his old man introduced him to StarCraft, and his mates are even less likely to because few of their parents are big RTS nerds.
So I think to attract a sizeable new audience it’s really a road they have to go down, I guess the tricky part is monetising with that model as RTS isn’t as neat a fit for it as a Fortnite
This feels correct for me. SG will need to figure out how to make RTS compatible with micro-transactions (idk, maybe it’s co-op, story mode, or the 3v3 with addons)… old school ‘box’ gamers don’t make up enough of the gaming population anymore. And it’s not like there is a wildly popular rts game people will transition from. If successful, these will mostly be new-ish rts fans/players
I agree with ppl saying this seems less cool than SC2… hopefully they’ll begin focusing on those elements now that a lot of the tech infrastructure seems to more-or-less be there.
On December 14 2023 00:24 Creager wrote: Sorry, as much as Frostgiant has been fondling the RTS community's balls and as much I'd like to support them, I'm simply not pre-ordering anything anymore, that ship has sailed a long time ago.
In addition to that I'd agree with people that already pointed out how vague the supporter tiers are, I also don't want to support the f2p business model in general, give me a complete game I can churn out $60-70 bucks for and leave me alone with all the FOMO and GaaS stuff.
To add to your post. THeir biggest financial backer is complete and total scum. No big surprise their first revenue generating move is ethically ambiguous while Tim Morten tells us he is our "friend".
Kakao rips off working class Koreans by the thousands every single day. They have been entangled in numerous scams for years. All they do is apologize then move on to fucking over more people.
When this house of cards goes sideways I don't want to hear from all the "shocked and stunned" employees. Everyone knows Kakao is scum.
This feels very cynical and speculative re: frost giant. Kakao is a huge company, there are scandals but idk if they are ‘scum’ or if there is any evidence they have anything to do with this kickstarter.
I think we’re not used to seeing a new studio attempt to make a triple A rts from the ground up, and a lot of this is growing pains. We’ve seen 0 indication of bad faith, other than clearly figuring figuring out, and needing to work on design elements.
They’re trying to adjust to new ways of monetizing esports, I also prefer boxed games, but think it’s smart/correct that they’re trying to figure out how to make an rts competitive and profitable in this new world of f2p micro transactions. It seems to me the team is great and is working hard…
I’m a fan of the boxed method. Well, usually a digital purchase these days as cool boxes aren’t really a thing anymore.
I think that 100% would be fine with the existing RTS veterans, and I think Stormgate would be a lock to sell pretty well. I mean they’ve already made a million+ on Kickstarter alone, many of whom I imagine are throwing down just to get on the beta.
I just don’t see my kiddo saving his pocket money to throw down retail price on a game he’d probably dig, but only because his old man introduced him to StarCraft, and his mates are even less likely to because few of their parents are big RTS nerds.
So I think to attract a sizeable new audience it’s really a road they have to go down, I guess the tricky part is monetising with that model as RTS isn’t as neat a fit for it as a Fortnite
This feels correct for me. SG will need to figure out how to make RTS compatible with micro-transactions (idk, maybe it’s co-op, story mode, or the 3v3 with addons)… old school ‘box’ gamers don’t make up enough of the gaming population anymore. And it’s not like there is a wildly popular rts game people will transition from. If successful, these will mostly be new-ish rts fans/players
I agree with ppl saying this seems less cool than SC2… hopefully they’ll begin focusing on those elements now that a lot of the tech infrastructure seems to more-or-less be there.
What if it was possible to skin your starting base area and put these under microtransactions?
On January 10 2024 20:44 Marl wrote: This doesn't look good to me at all. Just the worst elements of wc3 and sc2 combined. why can't devs go back to broodwar and wc2 for inspiration?
Because there are 3 people alive who still play WC2, and BW only really exists in Korea. That's not how you bring in new audiences
On January 10 2024 20:44 Marl wrote: This doesn't look good to me at all. Just the worst elements of wc3 and sc2 combined. why can't devs go back to broodwar and wc2 for inspiration?
Isn't WC2 horribly imbalanced towards Orc? Doesn't seem like a great place for inspiration!
On January 10 2024 20:44 Marl wrote: This doesn't look good to me at all. Just the worst elements of wc3 and sc2 combined. why can't devs go back to broodwar and wc2 for inspiration?
Because there are 3 people alive who still play WC2, and BW only really exists in Korea. That's not how you bring in new audiences
Yeah if you really want to bring in new folks you’ve got to go truly back to the classics, WC1 at least, although ideally back to Dune
If RTS is to make a comeback it’s through antiquation and hipster caché, take a leaf out of the resurgence of vinyl records.
On January 10 2024 20:44 Marl wrote: This doesn't look good to me at all. Just the worst elements of wc3 and sc2 combined. why can't devs go back to broodwar and wc2 for inspiration?
Because there are 3 people alive who still play WC2, and BW only really exists in Korea. That's not how you bring in new audiences
If we're going by this logic Elden Ring would have been a disaster instead of game of the year. It's almost as if certain design principles could be adopted while still creating a more modern UX to attract and appeal to new(er) players.
On January 10 2024 20:44 Marl wrote: This doesn't look good to me at all. Just the worst elements of wc3 and sc2 combined. why can't devs go back to broodwar and wc2 for inspiration?
Because there are 3 people alive who still play WC2, and BW only really exists in Korea. That's not how you bring in new audiences
If we're going by this logic Elden Ring would have been a disaster instead of game of the year. It's almost as if certain design principles could be adopted while still creating a more modern UX to attract and appeal to new(er) players.
It’s a niche game, only the niche is so big that it can still be incredibly successful. Same with Baldur’s Gate 3
It’s really an iterative game on a formula that’s proved successful with its core audience, which ultimately seems to be the approach to Stormgate too
Keep in mind Frost Giant brags about having no marketing department.
On January 11 2024 07:21 WombaT wrote: Yeah if you really want to bring in new folks you’ve got to go truly back to the classics, WC1 at least, although ideally back to Dune If RTS is to make a comeback it’s through antiquation and hipster caché, take a leaf out of the resurgence of vinyl records.
On January 11 2024 00:54 Cricketer12 wrote: Because there are 3 people alive who still play WC2, and BW only really exists in Korea. That's not how you bring in new audiences
That is also not how you pay off your loans you got from the venture capitalists who want their money back plus rising interest levels plus profit.
WC2 has an active competitive scene. BW is played in Toronto PC Bangs by koreans, filipinos, chinese, japanese and euros. Brood War "exists" in Canada. I can't speak for the rest of the world though. Evidently you can.
I find some of the competitive scenes of games abandoned by publishers and developers to be super fun. Check out the communities around Red Alert 3, C&C 3, EA NHL '94, Super Tecmo Bowl, Fire Pro Wrestling World. Its not hipster... its fun.. and other than Fire Pro its free.
I think its great that these people are having a good time and it costs them $0. This forces EA to make better hockey games.. it forces 2K to make better wrestling games.. and it forces RTS developers to make better RTS games. It forces publishers to offer Free To Play options.
All that matters is how much fun it is... not how old the game is. "because what really matters is the players and what really matters is the game", Samwise Didier 2015.
On January 11 2024 07:21 WombaT wrote: Yeah if you really want to bring in new folks you’ve got to go truly back to the classics, WC1 at least, although ideally back to Dune If RTS is to make a comeback it’s through antiquation and hipster caché, take a leaf out of the resurgence of vinyl records.
On January 11 2024 00:54 Cricketer12 wrote: Because there are 3 people alive who still play WC2, and BW only really exists in Korea. That's not how you bring in new audiences
That is also not how you pay off your loans you got from the venture capitalists who want their money back plus rising interest levels plus profit.
WC2 has an active competitive scene. BW is played in Toronto PC Bangs by koreans, filipinos, chinese, japanese and euros. Brood War "exists" in Canada. I can't speak for the rest of the world though. Evidently you can.
I find some of the competitive scenes of games abandoned by publishers and developers to be super fun. Check out the communities around Red Alert 3, C&C 3, EA NHL '94, Super Tecmo Bowl, Fire Pro Wrestling World. Its not hipster... its fun.. and other than Fire Pro its free.
I think its great that these people are having a good time and it costs them $0. This forces EA to make better hockey games.. it forces 2K to make better wrestling games.. and it forces RTS developers to make better RTS games. It forces publishers to offer Free To Play options.
All that matters is how much fun it is... not how old the game is. "because what really matters is the players and what really matters is the game", Samwise Didier 2015.
It genuinely confuses me how you have such an obviously apparent love for organic, for-fun scenes, that’s obviously genuine and frankly a beautiful thing but you’ll also advocate for the worst corporate practices at the same time
On January 14 2024 22:49 JimmyJRaynor wrote: Keep in mind Frost Giant brags about having no marketing department.
On January 11 2024 07:21 WombaT wrote: Yeah if you really want to bring in new folks you’ve got to go truly back to the classics, WC1 at least, although ideally back to Dune If RTS is to make a comeback it’s through antiquation and hipster caché, take a leaf out of the resurgence of vinyl records.
On January 11 2024 00:54 Cricketer12 wrote: Because there are 3 people alive who still play WC2, and BW only really exists in Korea. That's not how you bring in new audiences
That is also not how you pay off your loans you got from the venture capitalists who want their money back plus rising interest levels plus profit.
WC2 has an active competitive scene. BW is played in Toronto PC Bangs by koreans, filipinos, chinese, japanese and euros. Brood War "exists" in Canada. I can't speak for the rest of the world though. Evidently you can.
I find some of the competitive scenes of games abandoned by publishers and developers to be super fun. Check out the communities around Red Alert 3, C&C 3, EA NHL '94, Super Tecmo Bowl, Fire Pro Wrestling World. Its not hipster... its fun.. and other than Fire Pro its free.
I think its great that these people are having a good time and it costs them $0. This forces EA to make better hockey games.. it forces 2K to make better wrestling games.. and it forces RTS developers to make better RTS games. It forces publishers to offer Free To Play options.
All that matters is how much fun it is... not how old the game is. "because what really matters is the players and what really matters is the game", Samwise Didier 2015.
It genuinely confuses me how you have such an obviously apparent love for organic, for-fun scenes, that’s obviously genuine and frankly a beautiful thing but you’ll also advocate for the worst corporate practices at the same time
Nuked
Clearly we should sell the people heroin and then blame the people.
There's certainly a conversation to be had about ethics and game monetization, but I outright reject the idea that it started with League and is wholly the peoples' fault. If anything, I celebrate that League managed to find a monetization system that wasn't pay-to-win, yet still was enough for the company to support itself and grow.
Artosis casted some games on his channel. It’s not a finished game yet but already has something to it. I am pretty sure it will replace sc2 at ESL in 2025/2026.
With 9 hours left we are at over 2.1 million. I myself did not buy in because the information to the additional content was still lacking (campaign chapters, heroes, ...) and I'm in alpha/ beta anyway. But I'm really happy that the kickstarter was this successful and I'm looking forward to NEXT festival on steam where they'll showcase some more stuff
EPT
