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France9034 Posts
UPDATE 27/07/2017: ELEAGUE and DreamHack have announced that they will still uphold the Valve bans. Source
ESL just announced their new rules for bans related to match-fixing, cheating, substance abuse, and competition manipulation.
When Valve announced the sanctions related to the match-fixing scandal that saw ex-IBP players banned, as well as some Epsilon players, most tournament organizers followed on these bans.
ESL has now changed their policies, which means ex-IBP & Epsilon players bans are lifted when it comes to ESL and ESEA competitions.
Technically, the following notable players are free to join a team and participate (for now) in ESL sanctionned tournaments:
- DaZeD
- swag
- AZK
- steel
- fxy0
- uzzziii
- B1GGY
Rumor has it:
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€: yeah I should read all of the post ^ ^
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They should adopt the Starcraft model. Fixers should never, ever, be allowed to play again, imo. There is not shortage of talent, and no shortage of fans and support right now. Allowing the integrity of the game to fall into further question, however, will impact CS and it's future in a negative way.
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France9034 Posts
On July 25 2017 02:00 lorestarcraft wrote:
They should adopt the Starcraft model. Fixers should never, ever, be allowed to play again, imo. There is not shortage of talent, and no shortage of fans and support right now. Allowing the integrity of the game to fall into further question, however, will impact CS and it's future in a negative way.
The KeSPA* model.
I suggest you learn about the matchfixing scandal in CS:GO, because it has next to no common grounds with what happened in Starcraft. Then we'll see if the discussion change.
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On July 25 2017 02:28 Ragnarork wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2017 02:00 lorestarcraft wrote:
They should adopt the Starcraft model. Fixers should never, ever, be allowed to play again, imo. There is not shortage of talent, and no shortage of fans and support right now. Allowing the integrity of the game to fall into further question, however, will impact CS and it's future in a negative way. The KeSPA* model. I suggest you learn about the matchfixing scandal in CS:GO, because it has next to no common grounds with what happened in Starcraft. Then we'll see if the discussion change.
They threw a match for a betting fix, right?
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France9034 Posts
On July 25 2017 02:37 lorestarcraft wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2017 02:28 Ragnarork wrote:On July 25 2017 02:00 lorestarcraft wrote:
They should adopt the Starcraft model. Fixers should never, ever, be allowed to play again, imo. There is not shortage of talent, and no shortage of fans and support right now. Allowing the integrity of the game to fall into further question, however, will impact CS and it's future in a negative way. The KeSPA* model. I suggest you learn about the matchfixing scandal in CS:GO, because it has next to no common grounds with what happened in Starcraft. Then we'll see if the discussion change. They threw a match for a betting fix, right?
Yes. That's like 10% of the situation.
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On July 25 2017 02:39 Ragnarork wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2017 02:37 lorestarcraft wrote:On July 25 2017 02:28 Ragnarork wrote:On July 25 2017 02:00 lorestarcraft wrote:
They should adopt the Starcraft model. Fixers should never, ever, be allowed to play again, imo. There is not shortage of talent, and no shortage of fans and support right now. Allowing the integrity of the game to fall into further question, however, will impact CS and it's future in a negative way. The KeSPA* model. I suggest you learn about the matchfixing scandal in CS:GO, because it has next to no common grounds with what happened in Starcraft. Then we'll see if the discussion change. They threw a match for a betting fix, right? Yes. That's like 10% of the situation.
To say that there is next to no common ground here is completely absurd. They threw games for money, and they should stay banned.
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On July 25 2017 02:00 lorestarcraft wrote:
They should adopt the Starcraft model. Fixers should never, ever, be allowed to play again, imo. There is not shortage of talent, and no shortage of fans and support right now. Allowing the integrity of the game to fall into further question, however, will impact CS and it's future in a negative way.
Yes I agree with this statement. Scale doesn't matter imho, match fixing is match fixing and they should stay banned for life. I was not exactly a huge ESL fan before and this is the straw that broke the camel's back for me
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France9034 Posts
On July 25 2017 02:41 Ansibled wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2017 02:39 Ragnarork wrote:On July 25 2017 02:37 lorestarcraft wrote:On July 25 2017 02:28 Ragnarork wrote:On July 25 2017 02:00 lorestarcraft wrote:
They should adopt the Starcraft model. Fixers should never, ever, be allowed to play again, imo. There is not shortage of talent, and no shortage of fans and support right now. Allowing the integrity of the game to fall into further question, however, will impact CS and it's future in a negative way. The KeSPA* model. I suggest you learn about the matchfixing scandal in CS:GO, because it has next to no common grounds with what happened in Starcraft. Then we'll see if the discussion change. They threw a match for a betting fix, right? Yes. That's like 10% of the situation. To say that there is next to no common ground here is completely absurd.
In each case a match was thrown. That's pretty much the only thing that's similar. Granted, the expression "next to no common ground" is too strong and not appropriate, I got a little carried away there.
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On July 25 2017 02:41 WindWolf wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2017 02:00 lorestarcraft wrote:
They should adopt the Starcraft model. Fixers should never, ever, be allowed to play again, imo. There is not shortage of talent, and no shortage of fans and support right now. Allowing the integrity of the game to fall into further question, however, will impact CS and it's future in a negative way. Yes I agree with this statement. Scale doesn't matter imho, match fixing is match fixing and they should stay banned for life. I was not exactly a huge ESL fan before and this is the straw that broke the camel's back for me
Right, they had the chance to make a living playing video games and threw it away. They don't have much sympathy from me.
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Germany3128 Posts
a shame 
Will be interesting to see tho if this is the first step to being completely unbanned or not.
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On July 25 2017 02:48 lorestarcraft wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2017 02:41 WindWolf wrote:On July 25 2017 02:00 lorestarcraft wrote:
They should adopt the Starcraft model. Fixers should never, ever, be allowed to play again, imo. There is not shortage of talent, and no shortage of fans and support right now. Allowing the integrity of the game to fall into further question, however, will impact CS and it's future in a negative way. Yes I agree with this statement. Scale doesn't matter imho, match fixing is match fixing and they should stay banned for life. I was not exactly a huge ESL fan before and this is the straw that broke the camel's back for me Right, they had the chance to make a living playing video games and threw it away. They don't have much sympathy from me.
SC2 players should prolly look into the case more before coming into it condescendingly)
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On July 25 2017 03:52 Luolis wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2017 02:48 lorestarcraft wrote:On July 25 2017 02:41 WindWolf wrote:On July 25 2017 02:00 lorestarcraft wrote:
They should adopt the Starcraft model. Fixers should never, ever, be allowed to play again, imo. There is not shortage of talent, and no shortage of fans and support right now. Allowing the integrity of the game to fall into further question, however, will impact CS and it's future in a negative way. Yes I agree with this statement. Scale doesn't matter imho, match fixing is match fixing and they should stay banned for life. I was not exactly a huge ESL fan before and this is the straw that broke the camel's back for me Right, they had the chance to make a living playing video games and threw it away. They don't have much sympathy from me. SC2 players should prolly look into the case more before coming into it condescendingly)
You could just take this opportunity to educate people instead of throwing shade.
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Saviour was the ring leader of a gambling ring that included many top players and crippled the scene.
There are several things people who didn't follow the cs scene may not know about the ibp throw:
1. It was an online game for cevo which was a T2 online league at the time and was just having their first LAN finals for the season in question. IBP would have still made the finals as the first seed even if they lost out all of their remaining games.
2. The team they were playing against was Netcode Guides, who needed to win this game in order to secure the final spot at the LAN. Netcode Guides was co-owned by DaZeD (ibp leader) and yet cevo got almost 0 flak for allowing this conflict of interest in the first place.
3. IBP had just gotten back from a 3 month long bootcamp/tournament stint in EU, there planes landed literally the night before this match was played. The match was played on season, a map that was only used in cevo at the time and no one in EU played or cared about meaning IBP had not practiced or played the map in AT LEAST 3 months.
4. So at this point anyone betting on this game when the odds are 90-10 in favour of IBP deserves to lose their skins in my opinion but one final thing to consider. None of the IBP players were salaried and only their travel to events was covered by IBP. They received roughly 1000 dollars Each in skins for the throw.
Yet people just say matchfixing is matchfixing and lifetime bans should be applied devoid of all context or precident as if in real life someone would say theft is theft and shoplifting should have equal consequences as robbing a bank. I'm not saying they shouldn't have been punished but saying this throw is the same as the savior shit is either ignorant or delusional.
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On July 25 2017 04:37 Craton wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2017 03:52 Luolis wrote:On July 25 2017 02:48 lorestarcraft wrote:On July 25 2017 02:41 WindWolf wrote:On July 25 2017 02:00 lorestarcraft wrote:
They should adopt the Starcraft model. Fixers should never, ever, be allowed to play again, imo. There is not shortage of talent, and no shortage of fans and support right now. Allowing the integrity of the game to fall into further question, however, will impact CS and it's future in a negative way. Yes I agree with this statement. Scale doesn't matter imho, match fixing is match fixing and they should stay banned for life. I was not exactly a huge ESL fan before and this is the straw that broke the camel's back for me Right, they had the chance to make a living playing video games and threw it away. They don't have much sympathy from me. SC2 players should prolly look into the case more before coming into it condescendingly) You could just take this opportunity to educate people instead of throwing shade.
I'm not that good of a person/writer so i just salt instead.
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On July 25 2017 03:30 TheNewEra wrote:a shame Will be interesting to see tho if this is the first step to being completely unbanned or not.
I'm hoping Valve doesn't give in and let them remain banned. I also wishes that Valve (once they have ironed out the details) makes CSGO use a similar major structure to what Dota2 will use starting after the next International, so that it aldo puts pressure on tournament organizers
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Thank you, whuderE, for offering context to the situation. It allows us to have a more informed opinion.
The IBP players ought to remain banned, and until the ESL has rules in place which re-establish those bans, Valve should not give them any consideration for any future Majors.
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On July 25 2017 04:40 whuderE wrote:
Saviour was the ring leader of a gambling ring that included many top players and crippled the scene.
There are several things people who didn't follow the cs scene may not know about the ibp throw:
1. It was an online game for cevo which was a T2 online league at the time and was just having their first LAN finals for the season in question. IBP would have still made the finals as the first seed even if they lost out all of their remaining games.
2. The team they were playing against was Netcode Guides, who needed to win this game in order to secure the final spot at the LAN. Netcode Guides was co-owned by DaZeD (ibp leader) and yet cevo got almost 0 flak for allowing this conflict of interest in the first place.
3. IBP had just gotten back from a 3 month long bootcamp/tournament stint in EU, there planes landed literally the night before this match was played. The match was played on season, a map that was only used in cevo at the time and no one in EU played or cared about meaning IBP had not practiced or played the map in AT LEAST 3 months.
4. So at this point anyone betting on this game when the odds are 90-10 in favour of IBP deserves to lose their skins in my opinion but one final thing to consider. None of the IBP players were salaried and only their travel to events was covered by IBP. They received roughly 1000 dollars Each in skins for the throw.
Yet people just say matchfixing is matchfixing and lifetime bans should be applied devoid of all context or precident as if in real life someone would say theft is theft and shoplifting should have equal consequences as robbing a bank. I'm not saying they shouldn't have been punished but saying this throw is the same as the savior shit is either ignorant or delusional.
I agree in general not every throw is the same ,but the lifetime bans are there to try and prevent ANY sort of match fixing because if you dont then people will have better "risk vs reward" i.e if they know they are getting 1k USD for a small chance of getting caught and the worst they get is 1 year ban it might be worth it for them , if its life time and its irreversible then the 1k suddenly seems not that enticing.
You dont want to start an esport court where you have so many small matchfixng in which you need to decide punishments , as i said in the lower brackets players will sell games for 100$ , will you give them 1 month of ban due to the low money involved ?
I am for VERY HARSH rules in that regard , one more thing is in regards to the environment you work in , they all more or less "work" under the valve umbrella , so they are actually hurting their employer by doing this (harming the brand) so they will face much more severe consequences , for instance in my job i might get fired (i..e banned) for things that are legal in the law but my boss would not tolerate , its the same , you need to have context in the sense that their actions are not in a vacuum they are part of Valve esport brand and in such they are obligated to certain rules if they want to play in that sand box.
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What exactly are the new rules? It's hard to evaluate whether unbanning those players is justified without knowing how things will be structured going forward.
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5 year ban
Hard to believe players will play "risk vs reward" with a 5 year ban on the line and as much money on the scene as there is today.
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Welp, guess I won't watching any of ESL event ever again.
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Every professional athlete (Football, Baseball, Golf, CS, DotA, Chess ...) should be banned for life for fixing matches!
It doesn't matter if they're doing it in a 500$ tournament or a 50 000 000$ league.
They are destroying the sport and therefore lose the right to compete at the highest level.
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On July 25 2017 09:24 bluzi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2017 04:40 whuderE wrote:
Saviour was the ring leader of a gambling ring that included many top players and crippled the scene.
There are several things people who didn't follow the cs scene may not know about the ibp throw:
1. It was an online game for cevo which was a T2 online league at the time and was just having their first LAN finals for the season in question. IBP would have still made the finals as the first seed even if they lost out all of their remaining games.
2. The team they were playing against was Netcode Guides, who needed to win this game in order to secure the final spot at the LAN. Netcode Guides was co-owned by DaZeD (ibp leader) and yet cevo got almost 0 flak for allowing this conflict of interest in the first place.
3. IBP had just gotten back from a 3 month long bootcamp/tournament stint in EU, there planes landed literally the night before this match was played. The match was played on season, a map that was only used in cevo at the time and no one in EU played or cared about meaning IBP had not practiced or played the map in AT LEAST 3 months.
4. So at this point anyone betting on this game when the odds are 90-10 in favour of IBP deserves to lose their skins in my opinion but one final thing to consider. None of the IBP players were salaried and only their travel to events was covered by IBP. They received roughly 1000 dollars Each in skins for the throw.
Yet people just say matchfixing is matchfixing and lifetime bans should be applied devoid of all context or precident as if in real life someone would say theft is theft and shoplifting should have equal consequences as robbing a bank. I'm not saying they shouldn't have been punished but saying this throw is the same as the savior shit is either ignorant or delusional. I agree in general not every throw is the same ,but the lifetime bans are there to try and prevent ANY sort of match fixing because if you dont then people will have better "risk vs reward" i.e if they know they are getting 1k USD for a small chance of getting caught and the worst they get is 1 year ban it might be worth it for them , if its life time and its irreversible then the 1k suddenly seems not that enticing. You dont want to start an esport court where you have so many small matchfixng in which you need to decide punishments , as i said in the lower brackets players will sell games for 100$ , will you give them 1 month of ban due to the low money involved ? I am for VERY HARSH rules in that regard , one more thing is in regards to the environment you work in , they all more or less "work" under the valve umbrella , so they are actually hurting their employer by doing this (harming the brand) so they will face much more severe consequences , for instance in my job i might get fired (i..e banned) for things that are legal in the law but my boss would not tolerate , its the same , you need to have context in the sense that their actions are not in a vacuum they are part of Valve esport brand and in such they are obligated to certain rules if they want to play in that sand box.
Why do you not want a court like solution? There are always details in this sort of things, that can both make a "soft" case of match fixing actually turn out to be way worse than a case that the public deems as "hard" or lifetime unforgiving...
I will never understand people who wants all wrongdoings to be punished equally and even worse, to be punished by the owners of a game or various tournament organisers. The courts, and in this case an esport court/match fixing court is there because they will have access to all details in a given felony and can punish accordingly taking everything into account, including brand damage for the CS or esport image, as a lot of you seem very focused on.
This way you avoid the general public lynch/mob mentality, takes of pressure from the organisers which are (also in this case) fumbling in the dark.
It does not require a lot of imagination to think of cases where a lifetime ban would be completely ridiculous, even if you think the IBP case is severe enough to warrant a life time ban.
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Even when the threat of being banned for life has existed, we still have had someone do it in SC2... and he got what they deserved.
Now you can throw a game in csgo and get banned a minimum of 5 years? what a joke ESL is unbanning those players.
How many thrown games do you think have happened that we have never caught? Valve better never succumb to the pressure of letting thieves play.
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CS:GO was still in its wild west phase when iBP threw. When considering the context of iBP's situation, match-fixing does not warrant a lifetime ban IMO.
Also, no tournament organizers had to ban them. They all chose to ban them as well because they wanted to stay on Valve's good side. They didn't want to jeopardize the chance of having one of their tournament(s) being given major status. IIRC Valve stated that TO's didn't need to ban them, but they did anyways (motivated by their own priorities).
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France9034 Posts
The argument of the life time ban as a deterrent is not very strong. It's been proven multiple time that that kind of sentence is no deterrent at all...
On July 25 2017 10:08 RuiBarbO wrote:
What exactly are the new rules? It's hard to evaluate whether unbanning those players is justified without knowing how things will be structured going forward.
It's literally in the article in the OP. 
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Valve lets a guy who threw a professional Dota 2 game play in all their events, so it wouldn't surprise me to see these guys be unbanned by them
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On July 26 2017 05:18 plasmidghost wrote:
Valve lets a guy who threw a professional Dota 2 game play in all their events, so it wouldn't surprise me to see these guys be unbanned by them
That guy was never formally banned by Valve. ALthough it is complete bullshit (He didn't even need to live out his 3rd party bans to their full durations).
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On July 26 2017 14:09 lestye wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2017 05:18 plasmidghost wrote:
Valve lets a guy who threw a professional Dota 2 game play in all their events, so it wouldn't surprise me to see these guys be unbanned by them That guy was never formally banned by Valve. ALthough it is complete bullshit (He didn't even need to live out his 3rd party bans to their full durations).
Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't he banned by StarLadder rather than by Valve?
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On July 26 2017 16:14 WindWolf wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2017 14:09 lestye wrote:On July 26 2017 05:18 plasmidghost wrote:
Valve lets a guy who threw a professional Dota 2 game play in all their events, so it wouldn't surprise me to see these guys be unbanned by them That guy was never formally banned by Valve. ALthough it is complete bullshit (He didn't even need to live out his 3rd party bans to their full durations). Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't he banned by StarLadder rather than by Valve?
Exactly. He was banned by Starladder, but they just kinda forgot or stopped enforcing the ban.
Joindota said they'd agree to honor that ban with their leagues (JD and Starladder used to be big buddies back in those days)
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On July 25 2017 13:44 Shana wrote:
Welp, guess I won't watching any of ESL event ever again.
cya @ the next ESL major!
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On July 25 2017 03:52 Luolis wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2017 02:48 lorestarcraft wrote:On July 25 2017 02:41 WindWolf wrote:On July 25 2017 02:00 lorestarcraft wrote:
They should adopt the Starcraft model. Fixers should never, ever, be allowed to play again, imo. There is not shortage of talent, and no shortage of fans and support right now. Allowing the integrity of the game to fall into further question, however, will impact CS and it's future in a negative way. Yes I agree with this statement. Scale doesn't matter imho, match fixing is match fixing and they should stay banned for life. I was not exactly a huge ESL fan before and this is the straw that broke the camel's back for me Right, they had the chance to make a living playing video games and threw it away. They don't have much sympathy from me. SC2 players should prolly look into the case more before coming into it condescendingly)
They. Got. Caught. Matchfixing. That is reprehensible behavior.
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On July 25 2017 19:06 Ragnarork wrote:The argument of the life time ban as a deterrent is not very strong. It's been proven multiple time that that kind of sentence is no deterrent at all... Show nested quote +On July 25 2017 10:08 RuiBarbO wrote:
What exactly are the new rules? It's hard to evaluate whether unbanning those players is justified without knowing how things will be structured going forward. It's literally in the article in the OP.
Its worked pretty well in csgo so far...
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eSports players need a labor union.
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On July 27 2017 07:00 lorestarcraft wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2017 03:52 Luolis wrote:On July 25 2017 02:48 lorestarcraft wrote:On July 25 2017 02:41 WindWolf wrote:On July 25 2017 02:00 lorestarcraft wrote:
They should adopt the Starcraft model. Fixers should never, ever, be allowed to play again, imo. There is not shortage of talent, and no shortage of fans and support right now. Allowing the integrity of the game to fall into further question, however, will impact CS and it's future in a negative way. Yes I agree with this statement. Scale doesn't matter imho, match fixing is match fixing and they should stay banned for life. I was not exactly a huge ESL fan before and this is the straw that broke the camel's back for me Right, they had the chance to make a living playing video games and threw it away. They don't have much sympathy from me. SC2 players should prolly look into the case more before coming into it condescendingly) They. Got. Caught. Matchfixing. That is reprehensible behavior.
And they got punished for it. I simply think lifetime ban for this exact case is too rough. Besides not like they can ever play even a major again.
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France9034 Posts
On July 27 2017 07:00 lorestarcraft wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2017 03:52 Luolis wrote:On July 25 2017 02:48 lorestarcraft wrote:On July 25 2017 02:41 WindWolf wrote:On July 25 2017 02:00 lorestarcraft wrote:
They should adopt the Starcraft model. Fixers should never, ever, be allowed to play again, imo. There is not shortage of talent, and no shortage of fans and support right now. Allowing the integrity of the game to fall into further question, however, will impact CS and it's future in a negative way. Yes I agree with this statement. Scale doesn't matter imho, match fixing is match fixing and they should stay banned for life. I was not exactly a huge ESL fan before and this is the straw that broke the camel's back for me Right, they had the chance to make a living playing video games and threw it away. They don't have much sympathy from me. SC2 players should prolly look into the case more before coming into it condescendingly) They. Got. Caught. Matchfixing. That is reprehensible behavior.
I think no one here is defending the fact that they should not be punished. ESL's new rule default to a 5 year ban. Which in terms of Esports is still pretty much career-ending, or at least cut your potential career by two thirds assuming you get in at 17-18 an get out around 30 (which is roughly what we see today).
The discussion is more about whether lifetime or not.
On July 27 2017 07:01 lorestarcraft wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2017 19:06 Ragnarork wrote:The argument of the life time ban as a deterrent is not very strong. It's been proven multiple time that that kind of sentence is no deterrent at all... On July 25 2017 10:08 RuiBarbO wrote:
What exactly are the new rules? It's hard to evaluate whether unbanning those players is justified without knowing how things will be structured going forward. It's literally in the article in the OP. Its worked pretty well in csgo so far...
Nothing indicates there is a causation. Correlation is not causation. We have no idea if 3 or 5 year bans would have achieved the same.
On the other hand, please tell me about Life.
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Good on ESL, 5 years on match fixing is sufficient for dissuassion. I don't think those who can potentially match fix will consider 5 years that much different than life ban for cost/benefit purposes (it's career shattering, unlike, for example, a 2 year ban), and it allows those who have or regain passion for the game to return eventually.
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csgo is a joke game anyways when things like the "crouch jump bug" are allowed at the highest level events. who cares if ibp can play or not at this point.
User was warned for this post
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Hopefully other tournaments will respect the ban so any team picking up the bad apples are extremely limited.
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Do far DH and ELeague will uphold the ban
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EPT
