Seems like pretty big news. I think most MMA fans knew this day would come sometime, and here it appears to be.
Alistair Overeem (36-11 MMA, 1-0 UFC) is unlikely to fight champion Junior Dos Santos (14-1 MMA, 8-0 UFC) for the UFC heavyweight title this summer at UFC 146.
Nevada State Athletic Commission Executive Director Keith Kizer today told MMAjunkie.com (www.mmajunkie.com) the No. 1 heavyweight contender failed a pre-fight drug test conducted this past Tuesday following a press conference for UFC 146.
Overeem's "A" sample was flagged for an elevated T/E ratio that exeeded 10-to-1, well over the 6-to-1 limit. Kizer said the heavyweight has the right to request the test's "B" sample, which, if negative, would make him eligible to receive a fight license.
What does everyone think? Personally as much as I knew this day would likely come with Overeem, it's a shame it had to be before the JDS fight, which should have been a spectacular striking war.
Edit: Reading more and appears he failed the surprise test they gave a bunch of fighters at the 146 presser, seems like maybe they need to do more of these random tests?
I knew it would happen one day... I always hoped it wouldn't be true, since I am a big fan of him. He lived in the same village as me... Hopefully he can get trough the "B" test, but I can't see that happen.
I only hope we don't get another Dos Santos vs Velasquez. But on the other hand, I also don't want to see Mir yet, I don't think he is ready yet, he needs 1 or 2 more fights before a title shot...
im not surprise bahaha everyone always said he was on steroids. liek seriously he gain so much muscle when he was in pride til when he was in strikeforce/japan
On April 05 2012 06:18 Diizzy wrote: im not surprise bahaha everyone always said he was on steroids. liek seriously he gain so much muscle when he was in pride til when he was in strikeforce/japan
Everyone knew you were on steroids- you hid it fucking well. And you get caught with an elevated testosterone level? No offence but at the top level you should be cycling your roids better than that ffs.
So I guess course of action for him is to submit sample B. Hope it comes back negative and let his decent PR squad handle the rest. If sample B comes back positive... claim you have no idea why... standard transparent practice. Was really looking forward to his fight against JDS.
So who gets bumped up now? Mir as he's on a 3 fight winstreak? HW division suddenly seems to have a serious lack of legit contenders. I really hope JDS gets an opponent as it's so unfair for a guy at his level to go through a serious training camp and have his fight pulled out. Waste of time and not paid a cent for it.
However I think it's now 100% safe to say, yes Overeem had achieved his transformation with the help of banned competitive supplements.
Btw to anyone interested T/E Ratio =
testosterone/epitestosterone ratio
Epitestosterone is very similar to testosterone, but its levels are not normally elevated by any type of juicing. In an average adult male, the levels are close to 1:1, but because athletics can increase testosterone the WADA allows for a 4:1 ratio. Some professional sports even allow for a 6:1 ratio. A 10:1 ratio is a CLEAR indicator that his testosterone levels are way higher than they should be!
My respect for him just seriously fucking dropped. FUCK ALL YOU STEROID ABUSING PUSSIES THAN CAN'T FIGHT WITHOUT IT. Honestly FUCK ALL OF YOU. K-1, SF, Dream all had non-existent/stupid testing policies, and his wins and titles are now tainted for good.
I was always a HUGE fan. He was born near me in the UK, loved his style in pride. Humble down to earth, honest. I can look past any imperfections we are all human. But steroids is cheating. It's just fucking flat out cheating, and I see it every day. It runs right the way down to amateur levels and it fucking puts a black mark next to the sport of MMA. Testing is a fucking joke in this sport. Pft.. if anyone is interested I seriously recommend reading the articles by Derek (forget his second name) on why MMA steroid testing under the unified bodies is an incredibly transparent process which caters more to the media and recognition of testing rather than deliberate random methods which will catch a far higher percentage of cheaters. I demand a ban of his license for at least a year to be honest. Fucking cheaters.
On April 05 2012 06:18 Diizzy wrote: im not surprise bahaha everyone always said he was on steroids. liek seriously he gain so much muscle when he was in pride til when he was in strikeforce/japan
such a difference.... o.o
To be fair, the first 2 pictures are right before/after a weight cut. The last 2 pictures are during/after a fight and his muscles are all swollen.
He is still got really big in a few years, but those pictures don't really give the right perspective.
On April 05 2012 06:31 Dr.Lettuce wrote: God damnit Overeem.
Everyone knew you were on steroids- you hid it fucking well. And you get caught with an elevated testosterone level? No offence but at the top level you should be cycling your roids better than that ffs.
So I guess course of action for him is to submit sample B. Hope it comes back negative and let his decent PR squad handle the rest. If sample B comes back positive... claim you have no idea why... standard transparent practice. Was really looking forward to his fight against JDS.
So who gets bumped up now? Mir as he's on a 3 fight winstreak? HW division suddenly seems to have a serious lack of legit contenders.
However I think it's now 100% safe to say, yes Overeem had achieved his transformation with the help of banned competitive supplements.
Btw to anyone interested T/E Ratio =
testosterone/epitestosterone ratio
Epitestosterone is very similar to testosterone, but its levels are not normally elevated by any type of juicing. In an average adult male, the levels are close to 1:1, but because athletics can increase testosterone the WADA allows for a 4:1 ratio. Some professional sports even allow for a 6:1 ratio. A 10:1 ratio is a CLEAR indicator that his testosterone levels are way higher than they should be!
I'd like to see Mir vs Dos Santos, Velasquez vs Werdum for the No.1 contender and Russow vs Carwin or something. Carwin is expected to come back Mid 2012. If Carwin wins Russow is a nice stepping stone for him and otherwise it will give Russow a big boost.
I don't think Carwin should get a huge opponent yet, he lost his last 2 fights (Brock and Dos Santos) and comes of an injury...
Ahh man I was looking forward to see Overeem destroy the heavyweight division in UFC. This just SUX.
Is there really no way he could get to the testosterone levels with his physique, clean bodybuilding diet and hard training the natural way? I mean the guy trains twice a day (and I bet he squats/deadlifts like a mofo) for crying out loud and with above mentioned things I can imagine he would have a MUCH higher testosterone level then an average guy?
Him testing positive doesn't make sense. He passed the last random drug test (both blood and urine) and it was part of the conditions of the fiasco it caused (since he submitted a blood test instead of a urine test at first) that he submit himself to random drug tests throughout 2012.
He knew he was going to be tested at random so why wouldnt he stay off whatever he was taking for a year?
JSD vs Mir would be a pointless 2 minute KO victory for JDS. I hope his B samples test clean so we can see an actual competitive fight
Ya, I had seen a few journalists write about how testing in the UFC was a joke more and more. I wonder if this will be a first step by the UFC in making it more legit or if it will just be a blow to Overeem's image and nothing past that ^^.
Indeed it is disappointing, for me it's because I'm probably not gonna see my favorite - Junior Dos Santos - for some time. Maybe they change the contender if B is positive, too, but still it would postpone the fight.
On April 05 2012 07:31 Shinobi1982 wrote: Ahh man I was looking forward to see Overeem destroy the heavyweight division in UFC. This just SUX.
Is there really no way he could get to the testosterone levels with his physique, clean bodybuilding diet and hard training the natural way? I mean the guy trains twice a day (and I bet he squats/deadlifts like a mofo) for crying out loud and with above mentioned things I can imagine he would have a MUCH higher testosterone level then an average guy?
On April 05 2012 12:10 SoMuchBetter wrote: Him testing positive doesn't make sense. He passed the last random drug test (both blood and urine) and it was part of the conditions of the fiasco it caused (since he submitted a blood test instead of a urine test at first) that he submit himself to random drug tests throughout 2012.
He knew he was going to be tested at random so why wouldnt he stay off whatever he was taking for a year?
JSD vs Mir would be a pointless 2 minute KO victory for JDS. I hope his B samples test clean so we can see an actual competitive fight
I think it's kind of clear his plan was to delay. He only passed the first one because he ran to Holland for over a week. I imagine he thought this random test was NSAC giving him a call to go somewhere and piss and he could delay somehow for a few days before doing it. I wouldn't be surprised if a 10:1 T/E is Overeem only doing half what he normally does so he could lower his levels to 6:1 quicker. Maybe he even took epitestosterone before this presser but not enough.
He's spent the vast majority of his HW career in places that do not drug test and he recently split with GG, who if anyone knows a thing or two about PEDs. After the circus that was his last random test I am just gonna assume he's just a bad cheater, but he'll learn soon enough
Obviously this aint suprising, its a shame because he was set up for superstardom after he beat Lesnar, him winning the title would have really made him one of the biggest draws in UFC.
I bet that is why Dana is annoyed, he is losing money, rather than him drugging it up, so many fighters have been busted for it, its no longer shocking, just another "oh him too? okay then.."
Shamrock was recently on Ariel Helwani's mma hour and he pretty much said every1 is on something. And every1 seems to know this and then when 1 guy gets ''caught'' every1 is surprised and a witch hunt starts for that 1 guy.
Guess that's what we are seeing now again. Rather unfortunate tho, really wanted to see Overeem with the ufc belt.
On April 05 2012 23:29 Technique wrote: Shamrock was recently on Ariel Helwani's mma hour and he pretty much said every1 is on something. And every1 seems to know this and then when 1 guy gets ''caught'' every1 is surprised and a witch hunt starts for that 1 guy.
Guess that's what we are seeing now again. Rather unfortunate tho, really wanted to see Overeem with the ufc belt.
Yeah this is true in pretty much every sport. Bigger, Stronger, Faster is a great documentary about steroids-use and all the misconceptions around it.
Of course he is on something, he is freakishly huge. Thats also the reason you dont see any ripped guys in the heavyweight division. It's pretty much impossible to carry that much mass and remain that cut year round unless you have performance enhancing drugs. A person can be that big and cut naturally, but only for a show where they have carried around a much bigger percentage of body fat before hand. You cant stay like that all the time unless you use drugs, its just not natural. In his mind, its only a shame that he got caught, but in the world of MMA (and most pro sports) its just how they make their living. Many guys are breathing a sigh of relief now that someone else is taking the fall for something that they all do.
Steroids have been rampant in many sports for a while now. The public outcry over baseball is pretty silly IMO because it happens in hocky, and football you see doping and endurance boosters in other sports.
Not really a big surprise and seems so obvious now.
He always seemed so genuine and in practically every interview he managed to convince people he was just genetically different and worked harder than everybody else. Also got to feel bad for legit Lesnar who came off his illness and retired after the Overeem fight.
On April 05 2012 12:10 SoMuchBetter wrote: Him testing positive doesn't make sense. He passed the last random drug test (both blood and urine) and it was part of the conditions of the fiasco it caused (since he submitted a blood test instead of a urine test at first) that he submit himself to random drug tests throughout 2012.
He knew he was going to be tested at random so why wouldnt he stay off whatever he was taking for a year?
JSD vs Mir would be a pointless 2 minute KO victory for JDS. I hope his B samples test clean so we can see an actual competitive fight
I think it's kind of clear his plan was to delay. He only passed the first one because he ran to Holland for over a week. I imagine he thought this random test was NSAC giving him a call to go somewhere and piss and he could delay somehow for a few days before doing it. I wouldn't be surprised if a 10:1 T/E is Overeem only doing half what he normally does so he could lower his levels to 6:1 quicker. Maybe he even took epitestosterone before this presser but not enough.
He's spent the vast majority of his HW career in places that do not drug test and he recently split with GG, who if anyone knows a thing or two about PEDs. After the circus that was his last random test I am just gonna assume he's just a bad cheater, but he'll learn soon enough
It was reported today that the levels were actually 14:1.
I'm not upset that he's using because I'm honest with myself and 90%+ fighters use. I just wish he didn't get caught so it doesn't jeopardize the fight.
Actually I wish it was just accepted and we moved forward safely without fighters using PEDs dangerously trying to have wacky cycles and hide it.
im rather disappointed in this happening, as well as the idea some people have that they don't care others abuse drugs. I am glad they test athletes and will always hope one day someone will be a top contender who will fight with morals and honor. Iv never been a fan of fador for example but more and more i see fighters i look up to fall to the side. i'm starting to respect the russian even more for what he has done.
On April 06 2012 12:42 nexitustl1 wrote: im rather disappointed in this happening, as well as the idea some people have that they don't care others abuse drugs. I am glad they test athletes and will always hope one day someone will be a top contender who will fight with morals and honor. Iv never been a fan of fador for example but more and more i see fighters i look up to fall to the side. i'm starting to respect the russian even more for what he has done.
It sucks tho that when an athlethe needs to go into surgery or has injuries that he could power thro with banned substances to make his living they forbid him because its a PED.
There should be a better line of whats banned and whats not, they are suspending people for weed ffs
On April 06 2012 12:42 nexitustl1 wrote: im rather disappointed in this happening, as well as the idea some people have that they don't care others abuse drugs. I am glad they test athletes and will always hope one day someone will be a top contender who will fight with morals and honor. Iv never been a fan of fador for example but more and more i see fighters i look up to fall to the side. i'm starting to respect the russian even more for what he has done.
It sucks tho that when an athlethe needs to go into surgery or has injuries that he could power thro with banned substances to make his living they forbid him because its a PED.
There should be a better line of whats banned and whats not, they are suspending people for weed ffs
Weed is an ILLEGAL drug. Your suppose to go to jail for having it(lets not debate weed here though please). Obviously its not gonna be allowed in a sport. Im sure if its ever legalized they ill stop caring if you use it.
Dana Whites press conference about the UFC card coming up was held hours after he found out about the failed test and in typical Dana White fashion, he did not censor himself. Its why hes the best boss in the USA
It's obvious he uses steroids(who doesn't?) But i always lol when i see those pictures, he gained muscle over 5 years, with a good diet and training even a regular nerd can build that mass.
On April 05 2012 12:10 SoMuchBetter wrote: Him testing positive doesn't make sense. He passed the last random drug test (both blood and urine) and it was part of the conditions of the fiasco it caused (since he submitted a blood test instead of a urine test at first) that he submit himself to random drug tests throughout 2012.
He knew he was going to be tested at random so why wouldnt he stay off whatever he was taking for a year?
JSD vs Mir would be a pointless 2 minute KO victory for JDS. I hope his B samples test clean so we can see an actual competitive fight
I think it's kind of clear his plan was to delay. He only passed the first one because he ran to Holland for over a week. I imagine he thought this random test was NSAC giving him a call to go somewhere and piss and he could delay somehow for a few days before doing it. I wouldn't be surprised if a 10:1 T/E is Overeem only doing half what he normally does so he could lower his levels to 6:1 quicker. Maybe he even took epitestosterone before this presser but not enough.
He's spent the vast majority of his HW career in places that do not drug test and he recently split with GG, who if anyone knows a thing or two about PEDs. After the circus that was his last random test I am just gonna assume he's just a bad cheater, but he'll learn soon enough
It was reported today that the levels were actually 14:1.
Yeah, the first statement didn't say exactly what the ratio was, only that it EXCEEDED 10:1.
And from what I understand, even if his B-sample came up with normal ratios, he would still have to explain away the first test to the commission to get licensed for the UFC 146 fight. And I can't imagine how he is possibly going to manage that.
all the top fighters use performance enhancing drugs. in any sport really lol.
On April 05 2012 07:31 Shinobi1982 wrote: Ahh man I was looking forward to see Overeem destroy the heavyweight division in UFC. This just SUX.
Is there really no way he could get to the testosterone levels with his physique, clean bodybuilding diet and hard training the natural way? I mean the guy trains twice a day (and I bet he squats/deadlifts like a mofo) for crying out loud and with above mentioned things I can imagine he would have a MUCH higher testosterone level then an average guy?
overtraining leads to LESS testosterone. eating a clean bodybuilding diet doesn't increase testosterone levels.
what were his actual levels? average is 250-900ng/dL in 18-30yr old men.
taking 250mg of testosterone enanthate (no fighter would use this close to a fight, propionate has a much lower half-life, but mg/mg levels are somewhat close) gives someone ~1k+ng/dL levels. 500mg/wk would result in upwards of 2kng/dL.
let's just say i'm "in the know" when it comes to steroids.
what fighters would generally use would be a combination of (not all of these are steroids): clenbuterol (weight loss) t3/t4 (thyroid drug - weight loss) test propionate (short ester testosterone) anavar (pill) turinabol (pill) and MAYBE trenbolone acetate.
I'm surprised with myself. I thought I was strongly against illegal PEDs in sports. But I'm finding I want to see the fight more than I care about the cheating
I know it's a terrible attitude, but why couldn't they find him guilty after the fight ><
I found it humorous that he had a 14-1 T/E, compared to Chael Sonnens 16-1 T/E. For the size of Alistair I would assume that he would have more than Chael.
On April 06 2012 19:26 Kyhol wrote: Massive let down. I was pumped about this fight.
I found it humorous that he had a 14-1 T/E, compared to Chael Sonnens 16-1 T/E. For the size of Alistair I would assume that he would have more than Chael.
But for Chael it's ''ok'' cause he has only 1 ball.
On April 05 2012 06:18 Diizzy wrote: im not surprise bahaha everyone always said he was on steroids. liek seriously he gain so much muscle when he was in pride til when he was in strikeforce/japan
such a difference.... o.o
To be fair, the first 2 pictures are right before/after a weight cut. The last 2 pictures are during/after a fight and his muscles are all swollen.
He is still got really big in a few years, but those pictures don't really give the right perspective.
On April 05 2012 06:31 Dr.Lettuce wrote: God damnit Overeem.
Everyone knew you were on steroids- you hid it fucking well. And you get caught with an elevated testosterone level? No offence but at the top level you should be cycling your roids better than that ffs.
So I guess course of action for him is to submit sample B. Hope it comes back negative and let his decent PR squad handle the rest. If sample B comes back positive... claim you have no idea why... standard transparent practice. Was really looking forward to his fight against JDS.
So who gets bumped up now? Mir as he's on a 3 fight winstreak? HW division suddenly seems to have a serious lack of legit contenders.
However I think it's now 100% safe to say, yes Overeem had achieved his transformation with the help of banned competitive supplements.
Btw to anyone interested T/E Ratio =
testosterone/epitestosterone ratio
Epitestosterone is very similar to testosterone, but its levels are not normally elevated by any type of juicing. In an average adult male, the levels are close to 1:1, but because athletics can increase testosterone the WADA allows for a 4:1 ratio. Some professional sports even allow for a 6:1 ratio. A 10:1 ratio is a CLEAR indicator that his testosterone levels are way higher than they should be!
I'd like to see Mir vs Dos Santos, Velasquez vs Werdum for the No.1 contender and Russow vs Carwin or something. Carwin is expected to come back Mid 2012. If Carwin wins Russow is a nice stepping stone for him and otherwise it will give Russow a big boost.
I don't think Carwin should get a huge opponent yet, he lost his last 2 fights (Brock and Dos Santos) and comes of an injury...
Kind of funny how you defend him by saying that the two last pics are in a fight.. Unlike the third to last picture?
On April 06 2012 20:25 mememolly wrote: why are roids banned anyways? it's not like you could just take some roids and win the UFC, you still need to put in the work
First off it gives you an unfair advantage. The strength gains and cardio gains can be phenomenal. If you're training like an animal and take roids, your training can be soooo much more intense and give you disgusting advantages in a fight. You recover from injuries quicker. If you're fighting another guy and you've both been training for months, but you've been less hindered than him from injuries, able to do everything for longer and harder; and when fight time comes you're still pumped up you have an advantage. Not to mention the mental advantage of knowing that you are stronger than him in many physical aspects.
However the real reason they are banned, is because they cause so much damage to people long term. Roids are illegal for a reason- they seriously fuck you up. If they weren't anybody who wanted to compete in any sort of sport would take roids.
I'm just stealing this quote from a guy on a mma forum I know, and this guy knows a fuck load about PEDs:
That's the thing about steroids, once (or if) he stops he's toast. At least for the next few years. His body's natural hormone manufacturing has been destroyed by pumping artificial levels. If he stops, his cardio is going to be shot, he'll go through depression, lose a lot of muscle, might develop Cushing's syndrome etc. It would take years for his body to get back to normal.
So no, his past steroid use would generally count against him not for. He might be able to keep some of that muscle (most of it will go though), but it'd be rough going for a long time, and in the meantime everything else would be going haywire.
Of course if he didn't stop, he'd probably have a heart attack, liver disease, kidney disease, hypogonadism etc. eventually anyway. That's why steroids are a lose-lose proposition kids.
Basically what would happen to him is what I suspect happened to Filho and (don't hate me) Shogun when I think they went cold turkey on coming to stricter testing in the US from Japan. Their cardios died inexplicably, their bodies lost definition, and they went into depressive spins.
No anabolic steroid is harmless. There's better people than internet bodybuilders and back alley peddlers doing research into this stuff and marking stuff off as OTC, prescription, emergency etc.
If it was harmless, it would be a legal supplement. Peoples' desires to take the shortcuts in life and get ripped quick aren't gonna change the facts.
In fact, the very nature of the thing makes it impossible to be harmless. These are chemicals made by your body as regulator switches. They're not some magic nutrition your body needs from outside, there's a reason it's maintaining those switches at certain levels and that's because it doesn't want to overload. Like putting 10000 Volts onto a 240V motor.
People think they're being very clever by putting in more of this switch ... the body isn't stupid, it could've made up a bucket full of that stuff if it wanted, it doesn't need it. They're not very resource intensive chemicals for the body to make you know.
You put in extra, well the body just lowers it's own production, because it doesn't want to kill it's heart and organs that are not capable of functioning at those levels. ANY steroid has that basic principle, because you're dealing with the same mechanism here.
What the body does need is nutrition, things it can't make on it's own. But no, that's too slow, and we can't be bothered to take the long, hard, painful and consistent route.
Sure, you could do just a little bit of steroids, and it might not mess you up. Actually it would, but just by the amount you're putting in. Small amount, small messups, perhaps not even noticable, but then the gains are small too.
But slowly, those small amounts would have less and less effect, as your body gets used to it and compensates. Then you just need a little bit more. Surely if it's been fine so far, just a smidge more couldn't hurt?
Whoops that little extra smidge is causing just a little problem with the cardio, or the skin, or the recovery. Well, no problem! Just take this OTHER one to compensate for the side-effects. Just a smidge of course.... whoops...
And before you know it, you've got a gas pump pumping you full of synthetic horse testosterone and whale piss.
Sorry I just lifted some stuff he said- (so it may be slightly out of context) that I felt was relevant and explained my points far better than I did.
There's also the cost element. If you allow juicing, then large advantages can be gained simply by having more cash than your opponent. Of course, this is somewhat true already since richer competitors can afford better training facilities/experts/more in-depth analysis, but if you open the field to a pill giving certain people huge advantages, then you run into serious problems.
On April 06 2012 20:25 mememolly wrote: why are roids banned anyways? it's not like you could just take some roids and win the UFC, you still need to put in the work
First off it gives you an unfair advantage. The strength gains and cardio gains can be phenomenal. If you're training like an animal and take roids, your training can be soooo much more intense and give you disgusting advantages in a fight. You recover from injuries quicker. If you're fighting another guy and you've both been training for months, but you've been less hindered than him from injuries, able to do everything for longer and harder; and when fight time comes you're still pumped up you have an advantage. Not to mention the mental advantage of knowing that you are stronger than him in many physical aspects.
However the real reason they are banned, is because they cause so much damage to people long term. Roids are illegal for a reason- they seriously fuck you up. If they weren't anybody who wanted to compete in any sort of sport would take roids.
I'm just stealing this quote from a guy on a mma forum I know, and this guy knows a fuck load about PEDs:
That's the thing about steroids, once (or if) he stops he's toast. At least for the next few years. His body's natural hormone manufacturing has been destroyed by pumping artificial levels. If he stops, his cardio is going to be shot, he'll go through depression, lose a lot of muscle, might develop Cushing's syndrome etc. It would take years for his body to get back to normal.
So no, his past steroid use would generally count against him not for. He might be able to keep some of that muscle (most of it will go though), but it'd be rough going for a long time, and in the meantime everything else would be going haywire.
Of course if he didn't stop, he'd probably have a heart attack, liver disease, kidney disease, hypogonadism etc. eventually anyway. That's why steroids are a lose-lose proposition kids.
Basically what would happen to him is what I suspect happened to Filho and (don't hate me) Shogun when I think they went cold turkey on coming to stricter testing in the US from Japan. Their cardios died inexplicably, their bodies lost definition, and they went into depressive spins.
No anabolic steroid is harmless. There's better people than internet bodybuilders and back alley peddlers doing research into this stuff and marking stuff off as OTC, prescription, emergency etc.
If it was harmless, it would be a legal supplement. Peoples' desires to take the shortcuts in life and get ripped quick aren't gonna change the facts.
In fact, the very nature of the thing makes it impossible to be harmless. These are chemicals made by your body as regulator switches. They're not some magic nutrition your body needs from outside, there's a reason it's maintaining those switches at certain levels and that's because it doesn't want to overload. Like putting 10000 Volts onto a 240V motor.
People think they're being very clever by putting in more of this switch ... the body isn't stupid, it could've made up a bucket full of that stuff if it wanted, it doesn't need it. They're not very resource intensive chemicals for the body to make you know.
You put in extra, well the body just lowers it's own production, because it doesn't want to kill it's heart and organs that are not capable of functioning at those levels. ANY steroid has that basic principle, because you're dealing with the same mechanism here.
What the body does need is nutrition, things it can't make on it's own. But no, that's too slow, and we can't be bothered to take the long, hard, painful and consistent route.
Sure, you could do just a little bit of steroids, and it might not mess you up. Actually it would, but just by the amount you're putting in. Small amount, small messups, perhaps not even noticable, but then the gains are small too.
But slowly, those small amounts would have less and less effect, as your body gets used to it and compensates. Then you just need a little bit more. Surely if it's been fine so far, just a smidge more couldn't hurt?
Whoops that little extra smidge is causing just a little problem with the cardio, or the skin, or the recovery. Well, no problem! Just take this OTHER one to compensate for the side-effects. Just a smidge of course.... whoops...
And before you know it, you've got a gas pump pumping you full of synthetic horse testosterone and whale piss.
Sorry I just lifted some stuff he said- (so it may be slightly out of context) that I felt was relevant and explained my points far better than I did.
You could argue that all sports played at a professional level is unhealthy though, and that by allowing enhancement drugs you could get several positive benefits: a) You would even the playing field b) There would be better and safer use of enhancement drugs c) Knowledge about the subject would increase, thus lessening the dangers to society from enhancement drugs d) You would be able to regulate the market more, as well as taxing use of enhancement drugs e) It would make companies put more resources into researching better enhancement drugs that have less severe negative effects, as well as probably other positive effects. Many enhancement drugs are just medicines for different diseases being used in a different way than what was intended.
but if roids were legal then it would level the playing field and no one could gain an unfair advantage from them as all fighters would have the same chance to use them, as for them fucking you up, surely that is the fighters choice, as long as he is aware of the risks then what is the problem? how is taking roids any different than having a certain dietary program or whatever? to me it seems like a double standard to say you can do this to gain an advantage but not this
On April 06 2012 21:27 mememolly wrote: but if roids were legal then it would level the playing field and no one could gain an unfair advantage from them as all fighters would have the same chance to use them, as for them fucking you up, surely that is the fighters choice, as long as he is aware of the risks then what is the problem? how is taking roids any different than having a certain dietary program or whatever? to me it seems like a double standard to say you can do this to gain an advantage but not this
Why not make weapons legal! Why not make body enhancement legal! Why can't I bring a partner into the ring?! Why can't I eye gouge. Why can't I attack the groin. Why have weight classes!
Your "double standards" argument is not an argument.
On April 06 2012 21:27 mememolly wrote: but if roids were legal then it would level the playing field and no one could gain an unfair advantage from them as all fighters would have the same chance to use them, as for them fucking you up, surely that is the fighters choice, as long as he is aware of the risks then what is the problem? how is taking roids any different than having a certain dietary program or whatever? to me it seems like a double standard to say you can do this to gain an advantage but not this
Why not make weapons legal! Why not make body enhancement legal! Why can't I bring a partner into the ring?! Why can't I eye gouge. Why can't I attack the groin. Why have weight classes!
Your "double standards" argument is not an argument.
But there is one thing that separates your examples from enhancement drugs and that is that those things are all easily enforceable. Enhancement drugs on the other hand has been proven time and time again to be really really hard to stop.
On April 06 2012 20:25 mememolly wrote: why are roids banned anyways? it's not like you could just take some roids and win the UFC, you still need to put in the work
First off it gives you an unfair advantage. The strength gains and cardio gains can be phenomenal. If you're training like an animal and take roids, your training can be soooo much more intense and give you disgusting advantages in a fight. You recover from injuries quicker. If you're fighting another guy and you've both been training for months, but you've been less hindered than him from injuries, able to do everything for longer and harder; and when fight time comes you're still pumped up you have an advantage. Not to mention the mental advantage of knowing that you are stronger than him in many physical aspects.
However the real reason they are banned, is because they cause so much damage to people long term. Roids are illegal for a reason- they seriously fuck you up. If they weren't anybody who wanted to compete in any sort of sport would take roids.
I'm just stealing this quote from a guy on a mma forum I know, and this guy knows a fuck load about PEDs:
That's the thing about steroids, once (or if) he stops he's toast. At least for the next few years. His body's natural hormone manufacturing has been destroyed by pumping artificial levels. If he stops, his cardio is going to be shot, he'll go through depression, lose a lot of muscle, might develop Cushing's syndrome etc. It would take years for his body to get back to normal.
So no, his past steroid use would generally count against him not for. He might be able to keep some of that muscle (most of it will go though), but it'd be rough going for a long time, and in the meantime everything else would be going haywire.
Of course if he didn't stop, he'd probably have a heart attack, liver disease, kidney disease, hypogonadism etc. eventually anyway. That's why steroids are a lose-lose proposition kids.
Basically what would happen to him is what I suspect happened to Filho and (don't hate me) Shogun when I think they went cold turkey on coming to stricter testing in the US from Japan. Their cardios died inexplicably, their bodies lost definition, and they went into depressive spins.
No anabolic steroid is harmless. There's better people than internet bodybuilders and back alley peddlers doing research into this stuff and marking stuff off as OTC, prescription, emergency etc.
If it was harmless, it would be a legal supplement. Peoples' desires to take the shortcuts in life and get ripped quick aren't gonna change the facts.
In fact, the very nature of the thing makes it impossible to be harmless. These are chemicals made by your body as regulator switches. They're not some magic nutrition your body needs from outside, there's a reason it's maintaining those switches at certain levels and that's because it doesn't want to overload. Like putting 10000 Volts onto a 240V motor.
People think they're being very clever by putting in more of this switch ... the body isn't stupid, it could've made up a bucket full of that stuff if it wanted, it doesn't need it. They're not very resource intensive chemicals for the body to make you know.
You put in extra, well the body just lowers it's own production, because it doesn't want to kill it's heart and organs that are not capable of functioning at those levels. ANY steroid has that basic principle, because you're dealing with the same mechanism here.
What the body does need is nutrition, things it can't make on it's own. But no, that's too slow, and we can't be bothered to take the long, hard, painful and consistent route.
Sure, you could do just a little bit of steroids, and it might not mess you up. Actually it would, but just by the amount you're putting in. Small amount, small messups, perhaps not even noticable, but then the gains are small too.
But slowly, those small amounts would have less and less effect, as your body gets used to it and compensates. Then you just need a little bit more. Surely if it's been fine so far, just a smidge more couldn't hurt?
Whoops that little extra smidge is causing just a little problem with the cardio, or the skin, or the recovery. Well, no problem! Just take this OTHER one to compensate for the side-effects. Just a smidge of course.... whoops...
And before you know it, you've got a gas pump pumping you full of synthetic horse testosterone and whale piss.
Sorry I just lifted some stuff he said- (so it may be slightly out of context) that I felt was relevant and explained my points far better than I did.
You could argue that all sports played at a professional level is unhealthy though, and that by allowing enhancement drugs you could get several positive benefits: a) You would even the playing field b) There would be better and safer use of enhancement drugs c) Knowledge about the subject would increase, thus lessening the dangers to society from enhancement drugs d) You would be able to regulate the market more, as well as taxing use of enhancement drugs e) It would make companies put more resources into researching better enhancement drugs that have less severe negative effects, as well as probably other positive effects. Many enhancement drugs are just medicines for different diseases being used in a different way than what was intended.
I completely disagree with your train of thought. Why is all sports played at a professional level unhealthy?
Evening the playing field is the point. But in the reverse form, have everyone on a neutral level. Not everyone on roids. Same principle as nuclear weapons, the optimal solution isn't for everyone to have them, it's for no one.
There already is a safe use of certain enhancement drugs. The stuff these guys are using is dangerous in the long term. It's banned for a reason. There is so much research supporting this.
Knowledge about the subject of PED's is immense. Certain drugs are completely legal and safely regulated with research being conducted by many groups. In the same way that certain PED's are just 100% going to fuck you up, the research has been conducted and these substances banned for a reason.
It's not about regulating the market, this is not a similar situation to cannabis etc. If a substance is introduced that can cause physical effects with serious negative effects long term and is linked to many violent mental induced conditions. It should not be viewed with a liberal lens. It should not be 'Oh look here is dangerous substance X- lets educate everyone about it and then if they still want to use it let them.' That is such a backwards train of though and doesn't work in the real world.
Many enhancement drugs are not just regular medicines for different disease being used in a different way.
On April 06 2012 21:27 mememolly wrote: but if roids were legal then it would level the playing field and no one could gain an unfair advantage from them as all fighters would have the same chance to use them, as for them fucking you up, surely that is the fighters choice, as long as he is aware of the risks then what is the problem? how is taking roids any different than having a certain dietary program or whatever? to me it seems like a double standard to say you can do this to gain an advantage but not this
Taking steroids is not similar to any form of dietary program. The hormones produced by your body are heavily regulated internally for a chemical balance. These can be changed of course with exercise, training, diet and supplementation within reason. Many PED's completely out of sync the human body to completely unnatural levels. Do you really think that any kind of type diet will end up with you having so much testosterone, that your balls stop producing the chemical because you are so jacked up on it. Then when you stop taking it, your balls are now physically unable to make it and thus you have to start TRT (Testosterone replacement therapy). I'm sorry but you are completely wrong.
By allowing it, you literally make anyone that wants to compete in MMA, have to start taking steroids. There is no argument against it. Anderson Silva is incredible. The same guy abusing roids, would be even more incredible. Think about all the young guys just getting in to the sport. You effectively create an atmosphere that is unless you take steroids you will never reach the top. That is the wrong message for any sport.
Like I said, the aim is to make it an fair playing field. So that everyone is neutral, not jacked up. Why should it be the fighters choice? Why would an honest fighter who has trained his whole life agree to fight against other people who trained their whole lives, but have changed their bodies in such unnatural ways they have supreme advantages. Whilst it technically is the choice of the fighter, there is the wrong and right choice. I honestly think it's so black and white. Don't fucking roid.
It is not a double standard at all. I sincerely urge you to watch 'bigger faster stronger' a documentary on steroid use. Then go and read some academia on the subject. Fuck steroids. End of.
On April 06 2012 21:27 mememolly wrote: but if roids were legal then it would level the playing field and no one could gain an unfair advantage from them as all fighters would have the same chance to use them, as for them fucking you up, surely that is the fighters choice, as long as he is aware of the risks then what is the problem? how is taking roids any different than having a certain dietary program or whatever? to me it seems like a double standard to say you can do this to gain an advantage but not this
Why not make weapons legal! Why not make body enhancement legal! Why can't I bring a partner into the ring?! Why can't I eye gouge. Why can't I attack the groin. Why have weight classes!
Your "double standards" argument is not an argument.
But there is one thing that separates your examples from enhancement drugs and that is that those things are all easily enforceable. Enhancement drugs on the other hand has been proven time and time again to be really really hard to stop.
Is that a good enough reason to not have a rule? because that it is hard to enforce? Colluding/Match-fixing is pretty hard to enforce. Should we let it be legal?
On April 06 2012 20:25 mememolly wrote: why are roids banned anyways? it's not like you could just take some roids and win the UFC, you still need to put in the work
First off it gives you an unfair advantage. The strength gains and cardio gains can be phenomenal. If you're training like an animal and take roids, your training can be soooo much more intense and give you disgusting advantages in a fight. You recover from injuries quicker. If you're fighting another guy and you've both been training for months, but you've been less hindered than him from injuries, able to do everything for longer and harder; and when fight time comes you're still pumped up you have an advantage. Not to mention the mental advantage of knowing that you are stronger than him in many physical aspects.
However the real reason they are banned, is because they cause so much damage to people long term. Roids are illegal for a reason- they seriously fuck you up. If they weren't anybody who wanted to compete in any sort of sport would take roids.
I'm just stealing this quote from a guy on a mma forum I know, and this guy knows a fuck load about PEDs:
That's the thing about steroids, once (or if) he stops he's toast. At least for the next few years. His body's natural hormone manufacturing has been destroyed by pumping artificial levels. If he stops, his cardio is going to be shot, he'll go through depression, lose a lot of muscle, might develop Cushing's syndrome etc. It would take years for his body to get back to normal.
So no, his past steroid use would generally count against him not for. He might be able to keep some of that muscle (most of it will go though), but it'd be rough going for a long time, and in the meantime everything else would be going haywire.
Of course if he didn't stop, he'd probably have a heart attack, liver disease, kidney disease, hypogonadism etc. eventually anyway. That's why steroids are a lose-lose proposition kids.
Basically what would happen to him is what I suspect happened to Filho and (don't hate me) Shogun when I think they went cold turkey on coming to stricter testing in the US from Japan. Their cardios died inexplicably, their bodies lost definition, and they went into depressive spins.
No anabolic steroid is harmless. There's better people than internet bodybuilders and back alley peddlers doing research into this stuff and marking stuff off as OTC, prescription, emergency etc.
If it was harmless, it would be a legal supplement. Peoples' desires to take the shortcuts in life and get ripped quick aren't gonna change the facts.
In fact, the very nature of the thing makes it impossible to be harmless. These are chemicals made by your body as regulator switches. They're not some magic nutrition your body needs from outside, there's a reason it's maintaining those switches at certain levels and that's because it doesn't want to overload. Like putting 10000 Volts onto a 240V motor.
People think they're being very clever by putting in more of this switch ... the body isn't stupid, it could've made up a bucket full of that stuff if it wanted, it doesn't need it. They're not very resource intensive chemicals for the body to make you know.
You put in extra, well the body just lowers it's own production, because it doesn't want to kill it's heart and organs that are not capable of functioning at those levels. ANY steroid has that basic principle, because you're dealing with the same mechanism here.
What the body does need is nutrition, things it can't make on it's own. But no, that's too slow, and we can't be bothered to take the long, hard, painful and consistent route.
Sure, you could do just a little bit of steroids, and it might not mess you up. Actually it would, but just by the amount you're putting in. Small amount, small messups, perhaps not even noticable, but then the gains are small too.
But slowly, those small amounts would have less and less effect, as your body gets used to it and compensates. Then you just need a little bit more. Surely if it's been fine so far, just a smidge more couldn't hurt?
Whoops that little extra smidge is causing just a little problem with the cardio, or the skin, or the recovery. Well, no problem! Just take this OTHER one to compensate for the side-effects. Just a smidge of course.... whoops...
And before you know it, you've got a gas pump pumping you full of synthetic horse testosterone and whale piss.
Sorry I just lifted some stuff he said- (so it may be slightly out of context) that I felt was relevant and explained my points far better than I did.
You could argue that all sports played at a professional level is unhealthy though, and that by allowing enhancement drugs you could get several positive benefits: a) You would even the playing field b) There would be better and safer use of enhancement drugs c) Knowledge about the subject would increase, thus lessening the dangers to society from enhancement drugs d) You would be able to regulate the market more, as well as taxing use of enhancement drugs e) It would make companies put more resources into researching better enhancement drugs that have less severe negative effects, as well as probably other positive effects. Many enhancement drugs are just medicines for different diseases being used in a different way than what was intended.
I completely disagree with your train of thought. Why is all sports played at a professional level unhealthy?
Evening the playing field is the point. But in the reverse form, have everyone on a neutral level. Not everyone on roids. Same principle as nuclear weapons, the optimal solution isn't for everyone to have them, it's for no one.
There already is a safe use of certain enhancement drugs. The stuff these guys are using is dangerous in the long term. It's banned for a reason. There is so much research supporting this.
Knowledge about the subject of PED's is immense. Certain drugs are completely legal and safely regulated with research being conducted by many groups. In the same way that certain PED's are just 100% going to fuck you up, the research has been conducted and these substances banned for a reason.
It's not about regulating the market, this is not a similar situation to cannabis etc. If a substance is introduced that can cause physical effects with serious negative effects long term and is linked to many violent mental induced conditions. It should not be viewed with a liberal lens. It should not be 'Oh look here is dangerous substance X- lets educate everyone about it and then if they still want to use it let them.' That is such a backwards train of though and doesn't work in the real world.
Many enhancement drugs are not just regular medicines for different disease being used in a different way.
I`m not going to debate this with you, I believe legalizing would be better than todays situation, you can think what you want.
I just assumed people agreed/knew that excessive training/being a top athlete probably is not healthy in the long run. This is because you stress your body more than what is good for you if you want to live a long life with a properly functioning body.
Is that a good enough reason to not have a rule? because that it is hard to enforce? Colluding/Match-fixing is pretty hard to enforce. Should we let it be legal?
No, but that is an entirely different argument than whether you should allow people to be shot or have their eyes gouged out, so my argument about it being enforceable does not really apply to this.. Match fixing goes against the very premise of the game, unlike enhancement drugs which are merely part of the standards surrounding the game.
On April 06 2012 20:25 mememolly wrote: why are roids banned anyways? it's not like you could just take some roids and win the UFC, you still need to put in the work
First off it gives you an unfair advantage. The strength gains and cardio gains can be phenomenal. If you're training like an animal and take roids, your training can be soooo much more intense and give you disgusting advantages in a fight. You recover from injuries quicker. If you're fighting another guy and you've both been training for months, but you've been less hindered than him from injuries, able to do everything for longer and harder; and when fight time comes you're still pumped up you have an advantage. Not to mention the mental advantage of knowing that you are stronger than him in many physical aspects.
However the real reason they are banned, is because they cause so much damage to people long term. Roids are illegal for a reason- they seriously fuck you up. If they weren't anybody who wanted to compete in any sort of sport would take roids.
I'm just stealing this quote from a guy on a mma forum I know, and this guy knows a fuck load about PEDs:
That's the thing about steroids, once (or if) he stops he's toast. At least for the next few years. His body's natural hormone manufacturing has been destroyed by pumping artificial levels. If he stops, his cardio is going to be shot, he'll go through depression, lose a lot of muscle, might develop Cushing's syndrome etc. It would take years for his body to get back to normal.
So no, his past steroid use would generally count against him not for. He might be able to keep some of that muscle (most of it will go though), but it'd be rough going for a long time, and in the meantime everything else would be going haywire.
Of course if he didn't stop, he'd probably have a heart attack, liver disease, kidney disease, hypogonadism etc. eventually anyway. That's why steroids are a lose-lose proposition kids.
Basically what would happen to him is what I suspect happened to Filho and (don't hate me) Shogun when I think they went cold turkey on coming to stricter testing in the US from Japan. Their cardios died inexplicably, their bodies lost definition, and they went into depressive spins.
No anabolic steroid is harmless. There's better people than internet bodybuilders and back alley peddlers doing research into this stuff and marking stuff off as OTC, prescription, emergency etc.
If it was harmless, it would be a legal supplement. Peoples' desires to take the shortcuts in life and get ripped quick aren't gonna change the facts.
In fact, the very nature of the thing makes it impossible to be harmless. These are chemicals made by your body as regulator switches. They're not some magic nutrition your body needs from outside, there's a reason it's maintaining those switches at certain levels and that's because it doesn't want to overload. Like putting 10000 Volts onto a 240V motor.
People think they're being very clever by putting in more of this switch ... the body isn't stupid, it could've made up a bucket full of that stuff if it wanted, it doesn't need it. They're not very resource intensive chemicals for the body to make you know.
You put in extra, well the body just lowers it's own production, because it doesn't want to kill it's heart and organs that are not capable of functioning at those levels. ANY steroid has that basic principle, because you're dealing with the same mechanism here.
What the body does need is nutrition, things it can't make on it's own. But no, that's too slow, and we can't be bothered to take the long, hard, painful and consistent route.
Sure, you could do just a little bit of steroids, and it might not mess you up. Actually it would, but just by the amount you're putting in. Small amount, small messups, perhaps not even noticable, but then the gains are small too.
But slowly, those small amounts would have less and less effect, as your body gets used to it and compensates. Then you just need a little bit more. Surely if it's been fine so far, just a smidge more couldn't hurt?
Whoops that little extra smidge is causing just a little problem with the cardio, or the skin, or the recovery. Well, no problem! Just take this OTHER one to compensate for the side-effects. Just a smidge of course.... whoops...
And before you know it, you've got a gas pump pumping you full of synthetic horse testosterone and whale piss.
Sorry I just lifted some stuff he said- (so it may be slightly out of context) that I felt was relevant and explained my points far better than I did.
You could argue that all sports played at a professional level is unhealthy though, and that by allowing enhancement drugs you could get several positive benefits: a) You would even the playing field b) There would be better and safer use of enhancement drugs c) Knowledge about the subject would increase, thus lessening the dangers to society from enhancement drugs d) You would be able to regulate the market more, as well as taxing use of enhancement drugs e) It would make companies put more resources into researching better enhancement drugs that have less severe negative effects, as well as probably other positive effects. Many enhancement drugs are just medicines for different diseases being used in a different way than what was intended.
I completely disagree with your train of thought. Why is all sports played at a professional level unhealthy?
Evening the playing field is the point. But in the reverse form, have everyone on a neutral level. Not everyone on roids. Same principle as nuclear weapons, the optimal solution isn't for everyone to have them, it's for no one.
There already is a safe use of certain enhancement drugs. The stuff these guys are using is dangerous in the long term. It's banned for a reason. There is so much research supporting this.
Knowledge about the subject of PED's is immense. Certain drugs are completely legal and safely regulated with research being conducted by many groups. In the same way that certain PED's are just 100% going to fuck you up, the research has been conducted and these substances banned for a reason.
It's not about regulating the market, this is not a similar situation to cannabis etc. If a substance is introduced that can cause physical effects with serious negative effects long term and is linked to many violent mental induced conditions. It should not be viewed with a liberal lens. It should not be 'Oh look here is dangerous substance X- lets educate everyone about it and then if they still want to use it let them.' That is such a backwards train of though and doesn't work in the real world.
Many enhancement drugs are not just regular medicines for different disease being used in a different way.
I`m not going to debate this with you, I believe legalizing would be better than todays situation, you can think what you want.
I just assumed people agreed/knew that excessive training/being a top athlete probably is not healthy in the long run. This is because you stress your body more than what is good for you if you want to live a long life with a properly functioning body.
Legalizing wouldn't. I'm sorry but it just wouldn't. You would change the culture of all sports, essentially any young budding athlete would have to take roids to succeed. At that point, even newer dangerous chemically unstable substances would become regularly taken. Athletes would be taking even more ridiculous risks than they do now. You are welcome to your opinion based on absolutely no knowledge of steroids.
Yes excessive training isn't great for your life longevity. But it's a fuck load better than taking roids.
Personally I like to see what humans are capable of. Not genetically modified super freaks. Roids are looked down upon by so many of the worlds greatest sportsmen and women. And for good reason. I'm ashamed to admit I acknowledge a rise of people with the same train as thought of you. Thankfully you're still a large minority.
I am a huge advocate of MMA and I take it as a personal insult when ever people even try to suggest that steroid use is the way forward.
On April 06 2012 21:27 mememolly wrote: but if roids were legal then it would level the playing field and no one could gain an unfair advantage from them as all fighters would have the same chance to use them, as for them fucking you up, surely that is the fighters choice, as long as he is aware of the risks then what is the problem? how is taking roids any different than having a certain dietary program or whatever? to me it seems like a double standard to say you can do this to gain an advantage but not this
Taking steroids is not similar to any form of dietary program. The hormones produced by your body are heavily regulated internally for a chemical balance. These can be changed of course with exercise, training, diet and supplementation within reason. Many PED's completely out of sync the human body to completely unnatural levels. Do you really think that any kind of type diet will end up with you having so much testosterone, that your balls stop producing the chemical because you are so jacked up on it. Then when you stop taking it, your balls are now physically unable to make it and thus you have to start TRT (Testosterone replacement therapy). I'm sorry but you are completely wrong.
By allowing it, you literally make anyone that wants to compete in MMA, have to start taking steroids. There is no argument against it. Anderson Silva is incredible. The same guy abusing roids, would be even more incredible. Think about all the young guys just getting in to the sport. You effectively create an atmosphere that is unless you take steroids you will never reach the top. That is the wrong message for any sport.
Like I said, the aim is to make it an fair playing field. So that everyone is neutral, not jacked up. Why should it be the fighters choice? Why would an honest fighter who has trained his whole life agree to fight against other people who trained their whole lives, but have changed their bodies in such unnatural ways they have supreme advantages. Whilst it technically is the choice of the fighter, there is the wrong and right choice. I honestly think it's so black and white. Don't fucking roid.
It is not a double standard at all. I sincerely urge you to watch 'bigger faster stronger' a documentary on steroid use. Then go and read some academia on the subject. Fuck steroids. End of.
I'll try and check that docu out, thanks
Hypothetically though, if roids didn't have any negative sides effects would you be happy seeing them in MMA? and if not, why?
Steroids are awful, come on. Legalizing them would only lead to overusage and such. It'd become equipment sports instead of talent / whatever. Also steroids are extremely fatal, and more often than not fatal in the doses they'd be taking. It would be horrible to make young aspiring athletes need to take steroids in order to have a chance to succeed and open themselves up for all the numerous health problems they cause later on in their lives.
If anything they should make the tests even more frequent and strict.
@Grend Come on, exercise is good for your body not bad. It makes you live longer.
By the way if this guy seriously trains 2 times a day every day a week that's already a dead giveaway he's using steroids, that's just not possible, or at the very least it makes your results worse(Unless you use steroids)
@mememolly For the same reason that maphacking isn't legal in SC2?
On April 06 2012 23:13 Shikyo wrote: Steroids are awful, come on. Legalizing them would only lead to overusage and such. It'd become equipment sports instead of talent / whatever. Also steroids are extremely fatal, and more often than not fatal in the doses they'd be taking. It would be horrible to make young aspiring athletes need to take steroids in order to have a chance to succeed and open themselves up for all the numerous health problems they cause later on in their lives.
If anything they should make the tests even more frequent and strict.
@Grend Come on, exercise is good for your body not bad. It makes you live longer.
By the way if this guy seriously trains 2 times a day every day a week that's already a dead giveaway he's using steroids, that's just not possible, or at the very least it makes your results worse(Unless you use steroids)
@mememolly For the same reason that maphacking isn't legal in SC2?
Noone would be forced to do steroids.
@Shikyo: Please note that I am making a distinction about being a professional athlete and exercising.
On April 06 2012 23:13 Shikyo wrote: Steroids are awful, come on. Legalizing them would only lead to overusage and such. It'd become equipment sports instead of talent / whatever. Also steroids are extremely fatal, and more often than not fatal in the doses they'd be taking. It would be horrible to make young aspiring athletes need to take steroids in order to have a chance to succeed and open themselves up for all the numerous health problems they cause later on in their lives.
If anything they should make the tests even more frequent and strict.
@Grend Come on, exercise is good for your body not bad. It makes you live longer.
By the way if this guy seriously trains 2 times a day every day a week that's already a dead giveaway he's using steroids, that's just not possible, or at the very least it makes your results worse(Unless you use steroids)
@mememolly For the same reason that maphacking isn't legal in SC2?
maphacking, if legal, would destroy the essence of the game, it would be pointless to watch a game if two people were maphacking as it would alter the object and fundamentals of the game itself
roids, if legal and had no side effects, wouldn't destroy the nature of the fight, roids would just be a more extreme and better version of food or any moderate supplements that the athletes currently take, fighters eat certain foods now anyways, they eat these foods for the certain benefits it gives them, if roids were introduced and had no negative side effects then they would take these as well for the same reasons they eat a certain food, it wouldn't change the fundamentals of the fight itself whereas maphacking would change the total nature of the game; if anything, roids with no side effects would increase the performances of the fighters and make for more exciting fights
On April 06 2012 20:25 mememolly wrote: why are roids banned anyways? it's not like you could just take some roids and win the UFC, you still need to put in the work
First off it gives you an unfair advantage. The strength gains and cardio gains can be phenomenal. If you're training like an animal and take roids, your training can be soooo much more intense and give you disgusting advantages in a fight. You recover from injuries quicker. If you're fighting another guy and you've both been training for months, but you've been less hindered than him from injuries, able to do everything for longer and harder; and when fight time comes you're still pumped up you have an advantage. Not to mention the mental advantage of knowing that you are stronger than him in many physical aspects.
However the real reason they are banned, is because they cause so much damage to people long term. Roids are illegal for a reason- they seriously fuck you up. If they weren't anybody who wanted to compete in any sort of sport would take roids.
I'm just stealing this quote from a guy on a mma forum I know, and this guy knows a fuck load about PEDs:
That's the thing about steroids, once (or if) he stops he's toast. At least for the next few years. His body's natural hormone manufacturing has been destroyed by pumping artificial levels. If he stops, his cardio is going to be shot, he'll go through depression, lose a lot of muscle, might develop Cushing's syndrome etc. It would take years for his body to get back to normal.
So no, his past steroid use would generally count against him not for. He might be able to keep some of that muscle (most of it will go though), but it'd be rough going for a long time, and in the meantime everything else would be going haywire.
Of course if he didn't stop, he'd probably have a heart attack, liver disease, kidney disease, hypogonadism etc. eventually anyway. That's why steroids are a lose-lose proposition kids.
Basically what would happen to him is what I suspect happened to Filho and (don't hate me) Shogun when I think they went cold turkey on coming to stricter testing in the US from Japan. Their cardios died inexplicably, their bodies lost definition, and they went into depressive spins.
No anabolic steroid is harmless. There's better people than internet bodybuilders and back alley peddlers doing research into this stuff and marking stuff off as OTC, prescription, emergency etc.
If it was harmless, it would be a legal supplement. Peoples' desires to take the shortcuts in life and get ripped quick aren't gonna change the facts.
In fact, the very nature of the thing makes it impossible to be harmless. These are chemicals made by your body as regulator switches. They're not some magic nutrition your body needs from outside, there's a reason it's maintaining those switches at certain levels and that's because it doesn't want to overload. Like putting 10000 Volts onto a 240V motor.
People think they're being very clever by putting in more of this switch ... the body isn't stupid, it could've made up a bucket full of that stuff if it wanted, it doesn't need it. They're not very resource intensive chemicals for the body to make you know.
You put in extra, well the body just lowers it's own production, because it doesn't want to kill it's heart and organs that are not capable of functioning at those levels. ANY steroid has that basic principle, because you're dealing with the same mechanism here.
What the body does need is nutrition, things it can't make on it's own. But no, that's too slow, and we can't be bothered to take the long, hard, painful and consistent route.
Sure, you could do just a little bit of steroids, and it might not mess you up. Actually it would, but just by the amount you're putting in. Small amount, small messups, perhaps not even noticable, but then the gains are small too.
But slowly, those small amounts would have less and less effect, as your body gets used to it and compensates. Then you just need a little bit more. Surely if it's been fine so far, just a smidge more couldn't hurt?
Whoops that little extra smidge is causing just a little problem with the cardio, or the skin, or the recovery. Well, no problem! Just take this OTHER one to compensate for the side-effects. Just a smidge of course.... whoops...
And before you know it, you've got a gas pump pumping you full of synthetic horse testosterone and whale piss.
Sorry I just lifted some stuff he said- (so it may be slightly out of context) that I felt was relevant and explained my points far better than I did.
You could argue that all sports played at a professional level is unhealthy though, and that by allowing enhancement drugs you could get several positive benefits: a) You would even the playing field b) There would be better and safer use of enhancement drugs c) Knowledge about the subject would increase, thus lessening the dangers to society from enhancement drugs d) You would be able to regulate the market more, as well as taxing use of enhancement drugs e) It would make companies put more resources into researching better enhancement drugs that have less severe negative effects, as well as probably other positive effects. Many enhancement drugs are just medicines for different diseases being used in a different way than what was intended.
I completely disagree with your train of thought. Why is all sports played at a professional level unhealthy?
Evening the playing field is the point. But in the reverse form, have everyone on a neutral level. Not everyone on roids. Same principle as nuclear weapons, the optimal solution isn't for everyone to have them, it's for no one.
There already is a safe use of certain enhancement drugs. The stuff these guys are using is dangerous in the long term. It's banned for a reason. There is so much research supporting this.
Knowledge about the subject of PED's is immense. Certain drugs are completely legal and safely regulated with research being conducted by many groups. In the same way that certain PED's are just 100% going to fuck you up, the research has been conducted and these substances banned for a reason.
It's not about regulating the market, this is not a similar situation to cannabis etc. If a substance is introduced that can cause physical effects with serious negative effects long term and is linked to many violent mental induced conditions. It should not be viewed with a liberal lens. It should not be 'Oh look here is dangerous substance X- lets educate everyone about it and then if they still want to use it let them.' That is such a backwards train of though and doesn't work in the real world.
Many enhancement drugs are not just regular medicines for different disease being used in a different way.
I`m not going to debate this with you, I believe legalizing would be better than todays situation, you can think what you want.
I just assumed people agreed/knew that excessive training/being a top athlete probably is not healthy in the long run. This is because you stress your body more than what is good for you if you want to live a long life with a properly functioning body.
Legalizing wouldn't. I'm sorry but it just wouldn't. You would change the culture of all sports, essentially any young budding athlete would have to take roids to succeed. At that point, even newer dangerous chemically unstable substances would become regularly taken. Athletes would be taking even more ridiculous risks than they do now. You are welcome to your opinion based on absolutely no knowledge of steroids.
Yes excessive training isn't great for your life longevity. But it's a fuck load better than taking roids.
Personally I like to see what humans are capable of. Not genetically modified super freaks. Roids are looked down upon by so many of the worlds greatest sportsmen and women. And for good reason. I'm ashamed to admit I acknowledge a rise of people with the same train as thought of you. Thankfully you're still a large minority.
I am a huge advocate of MMA and I take it as a personal insult when ever people even try to suggest that steroid use is the way forward.
Listen to Shamrock on Ariel Helwani's mma hour, it is already used by a really high % of fighters. To the point where fighters feel they pretty much need to be on something as well to keep up with the opponent. That's not just a mma thing either.
Ufc needs to make sure no1 is using it by doing a ton of random tests for every1 or they should indeed legalize it (which i guess is not even possible in the US). Right now every1 knows about it and still acts surprised when 1 of them gets ''caught''. Dana is now supposedly really pissed at Overeem, but in reality he's just pissed about the fight being in jeopardy and not about him being on something.
Are we really arguing about legalizing steroids here? I am a med student, and I can tell you as a person who has seen what "roiding" can do, you should NEVER be allowed to take them. There's just no upside to it. They will fuck you up and eventually kill you. They will make you into an addict. They will fuck up your natural hormone balance and your organs, especially hormone producing organs.
I can see the logic behind legalizing drugs, but making roiding legal in sports is just so stupid. It's encouraging people to take them and requires you to use them if you want to make it to the top.
On April 07 2012 00:06 mememolly wrote:
roids, if legal and had no side effects, wouldn't destroy the nature of the fight, roids would just be a more extreme and better version of food or any moderate supplements that the athletes currently take, fighters eat certain foods now anyways, they eat these foods for the certain benefits it gives them, if roids were introduced and had no negative side effects then they would take these as well for the same reasons they eat a certain food, it wouldn't change the fundamentals of the fight itself whereas maphacking would change the total nature of the game; if anything, roids with no side effects would increase the performances of the fighters and make for more exciting fights
On April 07 2012 00:30 rkarhu wrote: Are we really arguing about legalizing steroids here? I am a med student, and I can tell you as a person who has seen what "roiding" can do, you should NEVER be allowed to take them. There's just no upside to it. They will fuck you up and eventually kill you. They will make you into an addict. They will fuck up your natural hormone balance and your organs, especially hormone producing organs.
I can see the logic behind legalizing drugs, but making roiding legal in sports is just so stupid. It's encouraging people to take them and requires you to use them if you want to make it to the top.
roids, if legal and had no side effects, wouldn't destroy the nature of the fight, roids would just be a more extreme and better version of food or any moderate supplements that the athletes currently take, fighters eat certain foods now anyways, they eat these foods for the certain benefits it gives them, if roids were introduced and had no negative side effects then they would take these as well for the same reasons they eat a certain food, it wouldn't change the fundamentals of the fight itself whereas maphacking would change the total nature of the game; if anything, roids with no side effects would increase the performances of the fighters and make for more exciting fights
But they do. They kill you. End of speculation.
You need to read the rest of the thread bro, the original question was a hypothetical one, read that, then reply
I have read pretty much all of it. And there's no reason to hypotezise since roids aren't and will not be harmless.
On April 06 2012 21:27 mememolly wrote: but if roids were legal then it would level the playing field and no one could gain an unfair advantage from them as all fighters would have the same chance to use them, as for them fucking you up, surely that is the fighters choice, as long as he is aware of the risks then what is the problem? how is taking roids any different than having a certain dietary program or whatever? to me it seems like a double standard to say you can do this to gain an advantage but not this
As far as i'm aware, there is no dietary program that can boost your performance even 1 % compared to roids and be nearly as harmful as roids. In addition to that, boosting your results by taking roids is so easy that it kills the spirit of sports completely.
I'm interested in the ethics of roids though, your complaint is that they are medically dangerous, ok, but what if they weren't would you allow them? and if not, why?
if you can't answer this question then don't reply to my posts
I wouldn't, because they drastically lower the amount of time and commitment you need to put in. As i said in my last post, I feel it kills the spirit of sports. I couldn't respect an superhuman performance if I knew it was mostly thanks to some substance they took. It's too bad that probably many records have been set using these drugs giving undeserved respect to the cheaters and not to the athletics who really deserve it.
i also wanted to say that when they refer to his t/e ratio, they don't mean testosterone:estrogen, they are referring to testosterone:epitestosterone. and if he was smarter he would have injected the correct amount of epitestosterone in order to keep a good ratio.
also, injecting steroids doesn't make you a better baseball player, football player, or what have you, contrary to popular belief.
On April 06 2012 21:27 mememolly wrote: but if roids were legal then it would level the playing field and no one could gain an unfair advantage from them as all fighters would have the same chance to use them, as for them fucking you up, surely that is the fighters choice, as long as he is aware of the risks then what is the problem? how is taking roids any different than having a certain dietary program or whatever? to me it seems like a double standard to say you can do this to gain an advantage but not this
Taking steroids is not similar to any form of dietary program. The hormones produced by your body are heavily regulated internally for a chemical balance. These can be changed of course with exercise, training, diet and supplementation within reason. Many PED's completely out of sync the human body to completely unnatural levels. Do you really think that any kind of type diet will end up with you having so much testosterone, that your balls stop producing the chemical because you are so jacked up on it. Then when you stop taking it, your balls are now physically unable to make it and thus you have to start TRT (Testosterone replacement therapy). I'm sorry but you are completely wrong.
By allowing it, you literally make anyone that wants to compete in MMA, have to start taking steroids. There is no argument against it. Anderson Silva is incredible. The same guy abusing roids, would be even more incredible. Think about all the young guys just getting in to the sport. You effectively create an atmosphere that is unless you take steroids you will never reach the top. That is the wrong message for any sport.
Like I said, the aim is to make it an fair playing field. So that everyone is neutral, not jacked up. Why should it be the fighters choice? Why would an honest fighter who has trained his whole life agree to fight against other people who trained their whole lives, but have changed their bodies in such unnatural ways they have supreme advantages. Whilst it technically is the choice of the fighter, there is the wrong and right choice. I honestly think it's so black and white. Don't fucking roid.
It is not a double standard at all. I sincerely urge you to watch 'bigger faster stronger' a documentary on steroid use. Then go and read some academia on the subject. Fuck steroids. End of.
I'll try and check that docu out, thanks
Hypothetically though, if roids didn't have any negative sides effects would you be happy seeing them in MMA? and if not, why?
First off, TRT is: injecting testosterone lol. If you take inject testosterone, yes your body will naturally shut down it's own production of testosterone, but not forever. There are drugs such as: HCG, Aromasin, Letrozole, Clomid, Nolvadex, and such which are SERMs/AntiE's (HCG is different - if you take it while on, your body never actually shuts down it's own production).
Steroids are NOT fatal...unless you're deathly allergic to the oil it's suspended in, or take way too much. Which can be said for pretty much anything on the planet, including water.
Show me cases where steroids were the actual cause of death of someone. Clenbuterol kills more people than roids ever will because it actually affects your heart. Any amateur BB that I've ever heard of dying was a known clen abuser. Zyzz included.
On April 06 2012 20:25 mememolly wrote: why are roids banned anyways? it's not like you could just take some roids and win the UFC, you still need to put in the work
First off it gives you an unfair advantage. The strength gains and cardio gains can be phenomenal. If you're training like an animal and take roids, your training can be soooo much more intense and give you disgusting advantages in a fight. You recover from injuries quicker. If you're fighting another guy and you've both been training for months, but you've been less hindered than him from injuries, able to do everything for longer and harder; and when fight time comes you're still pumped up you have an advantage. Not to mention the mental advantage of knowing that you are stronger than him in many physical aspects.
However the real reason they are banned, is because they cause so much damage to people long term. Roids are illegal for a reason- they seriously fuck you up. If they weren't anybody who wanted to compete in any sort of sport would take roids.
I'm just stealing this quote from a guy on a mma forum I know, and this guy knows a fuck load about PEDs:
That's the thing about steroids, once (or if) he stops he's toast. At least for the next few years. His body's natural hormone manufacturing has been destroyed by pumping artificial levels. If he stops, his cardio is going to be shot, he'll go through depression, lose a lot of muscle, might develop Cushing's syndrome etc. It would take years for his body to get back to normal.
So no, his past steroid use would generally count against him not for. He might be able to keep some of that muscle (most of it will go though), but it'd be rough going for a long time, and in the meantime everything else would be going haywire.
Of course if he didn't stop, he'd probably have a heart attack, liver disease, kidney disease, hypogonadism etc. eventually anyway. That's why steroids are a lose-lose proposition kids.
Basically what would happen to him is what I suspect happened to Filho and (don't hate me) Shogun when I think they went cold turkey on coming to stricter testing in the US from Japan. Their cardios died inexplicably, their bodies lost definition, and they went into depressive spins.
No anabolic steroid is harmless. There's better people than internet bodybuilders and back alley peddlers doing research into this stuff and marking stuff off as OTC, prescription, emergency etc.
If it was harmless, it would be a legal supplement. Peoples' desires to take the shortcuts in life and get ripped quick aren't gonna change the facts.
In fact, the very nature of the thing makes it impossible to be harmless. These are chemicals made by your body as regulator switches. They're not some magic nutrition your body needs from outside, there's a reason it's maintaining those switches at certain levels and that's because it doesn't want to overload. Like putting 10000 Volts onto a 240V motor.
People think they're being very clever by putting in more of this switch ... the body isn't stupid, it could've made up a bucket full of that stuff if it wanted, it doesn't need it. They're not very resource intensive chemicals for the body to make you know.
You put in extra, well the body just lowers it's own production, because it doesn't want to kill it's heart and organs that are not capable of functioning at those levels. ANY steroid has that basic principle, because you're dealing with the same mechanism here.
What the body does need is nutrition, things it can't make on it's own. But no, that's too slow, and we can't be bothered to take the long, hard, painful and consistent route.
Sure, you could do just a little bit of steroids, and it might not mess you up. Actually it would, but just by the amount you're putting in. Small amount, small messups, perhaps not even noticable, but then the gains are small too.
But slowly, those small amounts would have less and less effect, as your body gets used to it and compensates. Then you just need a little bit more. Surely if it's been fine so far, just a smidge more couldn't hurt?
Whoops that little extra smidge is causing just a little problem with the cardio, or the skin, or the recovery. Well, no problem! Just take this OTHER one to compensate for the side-effects. Just a smidge of course.... whoops...
And before you know it, you've got a gas pump pumping you full of synthetic horse testosterone and whale piss.
Sorry I just lifted some stuff he said- (so it may be slightly out of context) that I felt was relevant and explained my points far better than I did.
You could argue that all sports played at a professional level is unhealthy though, and that by allowing enhancement drugs you could get several positive benefits: a) You would even the playing field b) There would be better and safer use of enhancement drugs c) Knowledge about the subject would increase, thus lessening the dangers to society from enhancement drugs d) You would be able to regulate the market more, as well as taxing use of enhancement drugs e) It would make companies put more resources into researching better enhancement drugs that have less severe negative effects, as well as probably other positive effects. Many enhancement drugs are just medicines for different diseases being used in a different way than what was intended.
I completely disagree with your train of thought. Why is all sports played at a professional level unhealthy?
Evening the playing field is the point. But in the reverse form, have everyone on a neutral level. Not everyone on roids. Same principle as nuclear weapons, the optimal solution isn't for everyone to have them, it's for no one.
There already is a safe use of certain enhancement drugs. The stuff these guys are using is dangerous in the long term. It's banned for a reason. There is so much research supporting this.
Knowledge about the subject of PED's is immense. Certain drugs are completely legal and safely regulated with research being conducted by many groups. In the same way that certain PED's are just 100% going to fuck you up, the research has been conducted and these substances banned for a reason.
It's not about regulating the market, this is not a similar situation to cannabis etc. If a substance is introduced that can cause physical effects with serious negative effects long term and is linked to many violent mental induced conditions. It should not be viewed with a liberal lens. It should not be 'Oh look here is dangerous substance X- lets educate everyone about it and then if they still want to use it let them.' That is such a backwards train of though and doesn't work in the real world.
Many enhancement drugs are not just regular medicines for different disease being used in a different way.
I`m not going to debate this with you, I believe legalizing would be better than todays situation, you can think what you want.
I just assumed people agreed/knew that excessive training/being a top athlete probably is not healthy in the long run. This is because you stress your body more than what is good for you if you want to live a long life with a properly functioning body.
Legalizing wouldn't. I'm sorry but it just wouldn't. You would change the culture of all sports, essentially any young budding athlete would have to take roids to succeed. At that point, even newer dangerous chemically unstable substances would become regularly taken. Athletes would be taking even more ridiculous risks than they do now. You are welcome to your opinion based on absolutely no knowledge of steroids.
Yes excessive training isn't great for your life longevity. But it's a fuck load better than taking roids.
Personally I like to see what humans are capable of. Not genetically modified super freaks. Roids are looked down upon by so many of the worlds greatest sportsmen and women. And for good reason. I'm ashamed to admit I acknowledge a rise of people with the same train as thought of you. Thankfully you're still a large minority.
I am a huge advocate of MMA and I take it as a personal insult when ever people even try to suggest that steroid use is the way forward.
Listen to Shamrock on Ariel Helwani's mma hour, it is already used by a really high % of fighters. To the point where fighters feel they pretty much need to be on something as well to keep up with the opponent. That's not just a mma thing either.
Ufc needs to make sure no1 is using it by doing a ton of random tests for every1 or they should indeed legalize it (which i guess is not even possible in the US). Right now every1 knows about it and still acts surprised when 1 of them gets ''caught''. Dana is now supposedly really pissed at Overeem, but in reality he's just pissed about the fight being in jeopardy and not about him being on something.
I've seen it years ago. In my original post I mentioned how I see it right the way through to the amateur levels. I know it's extremely prevalent- we all do, however I will not accuse people until caught. I do have my suspicions but innocent until proven guilty. Additionally, it's hard to put a figure on it. I mean guys like K-sos came out and admitted past roid abuse, his article/interview was absolutely fascinating and I urge everyone to give it a look.
Shamrocks interview is great however they missed a lot of detail so it's a really poor example, a few guys like Jason Reinhardt came out and admitted it on the UG forums. That was a fantastic thousand page thread with so much insight. I currently train with 2 guys who are in the UFC roster. I know for a fact one of them juices/used to juice. I fucking despise it, but you are right. A lot of these guys are taking it because and I hate using this analogy but it's like nuclear weapons. If you don't have them you feel vulnerable, you get them just to play catch up.
And you are right about Dana acting pissed, he just signed a deal with fox. Realistically if MMA ever wants go mainstream, Dana should make an example of Overeem and cut him. We are now entering a transition stage and honestly, MMA can't afford to be associated with doping. Additionally I agree with you that random testing really is the way forward. I have never taken steroids yet I know how to cycle about 15 different PED's just because of my involvement within MMA over the years. Random testing eliminates preparation cycles. It should be done.
On April 05 2012 12:10 SoMuchBetter wrote: Him testing positive doesn't make sense. He passed the last random drug test (both blood and urine) and it was part of the conditions of the fiasco it caused (since he submitted a blood test instead of a urine test at first) that he submit himself to random drug tests throughout 2012.
He knew he was going to be tested at random so why wouldnt he stay off whatever he was taking for a year?
JSD vs Mir would be a pointless 2 minute KO victory for JDS. I hope his B samples test clean so we can see an actual competitive fight
yeah its strange, I read that he passed both Urine tests and blood tests as recently as a month and a half ago, and directly after the lesner fight. It also said he passed the blood test but the urine samples were what set it off. Which is strange in itself because they test urine because of the longevity of being able to test positive. Yet he had passed blood and urine tests less than 2 months ago. Seems strange that he would all of a sudden test positive when his fight is a couple of months away.
It also mentioned he was tested about 5 times randomly in the last 6 months, and this was the only one to come up positive, albeit was the the most recent test.
the article was listed on TSN but they seem to have changed the article now to a less detailed and more ambigious report.
On April 06 2012 21:27 mememolly wrote: but if roids were legal then it would level the playing field and no one could gain an unfair advantage from them as all fighters would have the same chance to use them, as for them fucking you up, surely that is the fighters choice, as long as he is aware of the risks then what is the problem? how is taking roids any different than having a certain dietary program or whatever? to me it seems like a double standard to say you can do this to gain an advantage but not this
Taking steroids is not similar to any form of dietary program. The hormones produced by your body are heavily regulated internally for a chemical balance. These can be changed of course with exercise, training, diet and supplementation within reason. Many PED's completely out of sync the human body to completely unnatural levels. Do you really think that any kind of type diet will end up with you having so much testosterone, that your balls stop producing the chemical because you are so jacked up on it. Then when you stop taking it, your balls are now physically unable to make it and thus you have to start TRT (Testosterone replacement therapy). I'm sorry but you are completely wrong.
By allowing it, you literally make anyone that wants to compete in MMA, have to start taking steroids. There is no argument against it. Anderson Silva is incredible. The same guy abusing roids, would be even more incredible. Think about all the young guys just getting in to the sport. You effectively create an atmosphere that is unless you take steroids you will never reach the top. That is the wrong message for any sport.
Like I said, the aim is to make it an fair playing field. So that everyone is neutral, not jacked up. Why should it be the fighters choice? Why would an honest fighter who has trained his whole life agree to fight against other people who trained their whole lives, but have changed their bodies in such unnatural ways they have supreme advantages. Whilst it technically is the choice of the fighter, there is the wrong and right choice. I honestly think it's so black and white. Don't fucking roid.
It is not a double standard at all. I sincerely urge you to watch 'bigger faster stronger' a documentary on steroid use. Then go and read some academia on the subject. Fuck steroids. End of.
I'll try and check that docu out, thanks
Hypothetically though, if roids didn't have any negative sides effects would you be happy seeing them in MMA? and if not, why?
First off, TRT is: injecting testosterone lol. If you take inject testosterone, yes your body will naturally shut down it's own production of testosterone, but not forever. There are drugs such as: HCG, Aromasin, Letrozole, Clomid, Nolvadex, and such which are SERMs/AntiE's (HCG is different - if you take it while on, your body never actually shuts down it's own production).
Steroids are NOT fatal...unless you're deathly allergic to the oil it's suspended in, or take way too much. Which can be said for pretty much anything on the planet, including water.
Show me cases where steroids were the actual cause of death of someone. Clenbuterol kills more people than roids ever will because it actually affects your heart. Any amateur BB that I've ever heard of dying was a known clen abuser. Zyzz included.
I know TRT is injecting testosterone... A lot of guys get placed on it because of pretty obvious past steroid abuse. Come on, Nate, Chael, Henderson to name a few? The reason these guys get placed on it is because of past steroid abuse.... You have to be pretty ignorant, to think that within the MMA community that such a large number of athletes are on TRT because of natural deficiencies... Like obviously these guys now have low levels of testosterone from past abuse. So actually yes, it does permanently affect your ability to naturally produce it.
Steroids pretty obviously contribute to serious flaws in health, they indirectly kill people. I don't see how you can debate that.
Like can you actually prove in one case 100% that smoking was the cause of death for someone. Like 100% there smoking lead to their death. It's the same as steroids, so many heart failures etc... so much indirect damage.
On April 06 2012 21:27 mememolly wrote: but if roids were legal then it would level the playing field and no one could gain an unfair advantage from them as all fighters would have the same chance to use them, as for them fucking you up, surely that is the fighters choice, as long as he is aware of the risks then what is the problem? how is taking roids any different than having a certain dietary program or whatever? to me it seems like a double standard to say you can do this to gain an advantage but not this
Taking steroids is not similar to any form of dietary program. The hormones produced by your body are heavily regulated internally for a chemical balance. These can be changed of course with exercise, training, diet and supplementation within reason. Many PED's completely out of sync the human body to completely unnatural levels. Do you really think that any kind of type diet will end up with you having so much testosterone, that your balls stop producing the chemical because you are so jacked up on it. Then when you stop taking it, your balls are now physically unable to make it and thus you have to start TRT (Testosterone replacement therapy). I'm sorry but you are completely wrong.
By allowing it, you literally make anyone that wants to compete in MMA, have to start taking steroids. There is no argument against it. Anderson Silva is incredible. The same guy abusing roids, would be even more incredible. Think about all the young guys just getting in to the sport. You effectively create an atmosphere that is unless you take steroids you will never reach the top. That is the wrong message for any sport.
Like I said, the aim is to make it an fair playing field. So that everyone is neutral, not jacked up. Why should it be the fighters choice? Why would an honest fighter who has trained his whole life agree to fight against other people who trained their whole lives, but have changed their bodies in such unnatural ways they have supreme advantages. Whilst it technically is the choice of the fighter, there is the wrong and right choice. I honestly think it's so black and white. Don't fucking roid.
It is not a double standard at all. I sincerely urge you to watch 'bigger faster stronger' a documentary on steroid use. Then go and read some academia on the subject. Fuck steroids. End of.
I'll try and check that docu out, thanks
Hypothetically though, if roids didn't have any negative sides effects would you be happy seeing them in MMA? and if not, why?
First off, TRT is: injecting testosterone lol. If you take inject testosterone, yes your body will naturally shut down it's own production of testosterone, but not forever. There are drugs such as: HCG, Aromasin, Letrozole, Clomid, Nolvadex, and such which are SERMs/AntiE's (HCG is different - if you take it while on, your body never actually shuts down it's own production).
Steroids are NOT fatal...unless you're deathly allergic to the oil it's suspended in, or take way too much. Which can be said for pretty much anything on the planet, including water.
Show me cases where steroids were the actual cause of death of someone. Clenbuterol kills more people than roids ever will because it actually affects your heart. Any amateur BB that I've ever heard of dying was a known clen abuser. Zyzz included.
I know TRT is injecting testosterone... A lot of guys get placed on it because of pretty obvious past steroid abuse. Come on, Nate, Chael, Henderson to name a few? The reason these guys get placed on it is because of past steroid abuse.... You have to be pretty ignorant, to think that within the MMA community that such a large number of athletes are on TRT because of natural deficiencies...Steroids pretty obviously contribute to serious flaws in health, they indirectly kill people. I don't see how you can debate that.
Yes if you don't use the drugs are your disposal and ABUSE them (which IMO is taking anything other than testosterone, some argue that but that's my stance, or taking upwards of 1g/wk which no fighter would ever do, only bber) and do things such as take a shot this week, don't the next, etc etc then yes that will lead you to needing to be placed on TRT. Many athletes actually have hook-ups with doctors for TRT just so they could legally use test.
You don't see how I can debate that? It's one of the largest debates that there are when it comes drugs! How does testosterone indirectly kill people? If you ABUSE them you might get higher blood pressure etc but indirectly kill you?
Can you please explain how all of these professional bodybuilders are alive? They are the one of the biggest abusers on the planet.
You are gravely mistaken if you only think that "abusing" steroids has any consequences. And correct me if im wrong, but doesn't "abuse" mean here that you are taking them, no matter how small doses. There is no way to take steroids without putting yourself in harm's way. That's a fact.
If you want proof of the correlation between steroids and death, just google it up. The proof is so solid I'm not gonna even look up any specific articles.
Thanks for the name of the documentary. I just finished watching it and it's pretty much eye-opener for me. Learned a lot of things (generally, not scientifically obviously since when I went to wiki to learn more about steroids and didn't really get much information apart from chemical formulas and contents discribed with more scientific language).
I have never used anything like that, nor did I ever want to. But I do go to gym and use supplements like BCAA and protein, no direct mass gainers (yeah, that's my deep knowledge). I wouldn't like to get big and it was never my choice and that's what I said to my trainer when describing my goals.
It seems slightly disingenuous to be railing against steroids because they arent perfectly healthy in a sport entirely based on beating the shit out each other, preferably until one contestant is incapacitated.
I'm so fucking dissapointed in Overeem. One of my favorite fighters, one of the best fights of the year cancelled. Anger mixed with dissapointment, god damnit Overeem.
On April 07 2012 02:46 sob3k wrote: It seems slightly disingenuous to be railing against steroids because they arent perfectly healthy in a sport entirely based on beating the shit out each other, preferably until one contestant is incapacitated.
Steroids are no more unhealthy than the aspirin people take for headaches. Actually they are probably much safer when used responsibly to treat health issues. Aspirin abuse kills you, steroid abuse can have serious health effects as well. Pretty much every drug used irresponsibly is bad for you. Yet people constantly single out steroids. If you've been told they're the worst thing in the world for you, you've been lied to.
TRT I think is a smart step for sports. Testosterone levels in men over the age of 30 decline fairly rapidly. A fighter in his late 30s will on average have much lower levels than one in his early 20s. If that is "safe" why is the discrepancy between someone on steroids and someone who is not such a terrible concern to so many people? It needs to be regulated and discussion needs to be opened up, people don't need to be treated like criminals over a T/E ratio which doesn't actually tell us anything about his actual levels
Can you please explain how all of these professional bodybuilders are alive? They are the one of the biggest abusers on the planet.
I never said it was immediate. Body Builders hardly have a long life expectancy do they?
That has probably more to do with the diet/exercise putting insane stress on the body.
I really can't blame Overeem for taking roids. 95% of top level MMA fighters are taking substances, especially since they aren't tested for HGH, so taking that is pretty much a freebie. I am disappointed in Overeem for not being smart enough to dodge the drug-test though. It's really not that hard if you are careful
He did look ridiculous, this shit had to be traced way earlier in his career. He had to be completely retarded to keep doing it given how far above everyone in terms of muscle mass and skill he was. Serves him right, too bad - he couldve been amazing even without it.
Can you please explain how all of these professional bodybuilders are alive? They are the one of the biggest abusers on the planet.
I never said it was immediate. Body Builders hardly have a long life expectancy do they?
That has probably more to do with the diet/exercise putting insane stress on the body.
I really can't blame Overeem for taking roids. 95% of top level MMA fighters are taking substances, especially since they aren't tested for HGH, so taking that is pretty much a freebie. I am disappointed in Overeem for not being smart enough to dodge the drug-test though. It's really not that hard if you are careful
Those numbers are thrown off all the time with no basis other than roiders saying everyone takes them.
Theres a ton of fighters that dont "abuse" forbiden substances.
And also realize that there are a ton of normal stuff that is considered a banned substance, like anti inflamatories, many kinds of pain killers, etc...
If guys who use those in training and test clear for banned substance are abusers, then im with you, 95% must be abusing substances
On April 09 2012 12:16 krews wrote: Overeem just applied for a license to NSAC, looks like there could be a loophole(money)
No I don't think it's money.
He wasn't actually licensed when he was busted. It's not a loophole it just a stupid system that doesn't account for problems like this. The reason I say it's not a loophole is because you can't control your contract expiration dates with them (to a degree) where you could abuse it. Otherwise you would be right.
I think it's stated he will be appealing to the board he was under TRT. Keith Kizer also came out and said he didn't request a re-test on sample B - so no matter what, we know he pissed hot at that moment in time.
He will probably claim this, as just after you inject your levels spike to ridiculous highs (14:1 etc) and then come back down a bit. So he will likely claim they just tested him after he injected recently. Fuck TRT and the stupid Nevada Athletic Commission.
And honestly anyone that doesn't think Overeem is roiding can shut up. If he honestly had low levels of testosterone it would have been impossible for him to gain the size of lean muscle with no body fat from in a few years. Jumping from 205, bearing in mind he was already training MMA/K-1 Full time so he had great supplementation/cardio/training year round the clock (was in fucking awesome shape) to 250 is just not possible without PEDs.
If you are already in tip-top fighting shape, adding on extra bulk is fucking difficult. If you're at 160 and don't train/diet. You could easily make a good bump up to 200 baring good genetics. The more you weigh keeping lean muscle and adding it, gets exponentially more difficult.
There is no way in hell Overeem had low testosterone levels when he did this metamorphosis (if he wasn't roiding), so how can he possibly claim that he now needs TRT. This is beyond me.
Dana hasn't announced a re-schedule of the fight card, and technically Overeem can still get licensed. JDS would take the fight because that's the kind of guy he is. It could happen. Dana wants it to happen. The vast majority of the MMA population wants it to happen. Falls down to the NSAC now.
I honestly don't want the fight to happen under these circumstances. Sure down the line in the future when it's all clear but not now. If this goes ahead it sends the wrong message about what people stand for in the sport. Other fighters will be more tempted.
In fact now, I hope Overeem does pass and takes the fight. And I hope JDS superman punches him through the cage.
On April 07 2012 03:05 Epoch wrote: He should be kicked out along with all the other cheaters, send a message to those who think about doing this. It's fucking disgraceful.
This. Why the fuck are they doing a 2nd test weeks or a month later? They are practically letting him get off the drugs before letting him take another test.
Fail test? Ok test another test the same day or w/e. Fail that one? Ok kicked out of UFC. Pass second test? Cleared to fight, must have been a false positive.
Thats how this shit sould've been run. They are basically ok'ing the usage of steroids, just don't get caught publicly with them.
Doping is such a huge problems in some sports and so rampant because of modern technology. They keep designing new molecules as medicine. Every new molecule they come up with you need to develop a new test and that costs a ton of money. And in the bad cases you need to even take a muscle biopsy to detect the substance because it just never shows up in blood or urine. HGH has been a staple for so many years. And now that it can be detected there are so many other similar and stronger substances out there. They actually had to tell the athletes: "Hey guys we now know how to detect HGH so stop using it." They didn't do any tests yet because then they would probably have caught about half of the athletes. If they had a test for IGF-1 and they would start to use it right now, the London Olympics and Euro 2012 would have to be canceled because almost everyone of relevance would be positive.
I believe a lot of elite athletes right now are using IGF-1. They know they can't get caught and their are so many subtle advantages all across the board, if we extrapolate from research on patients and on rats. With all the advanced doping being available right now I won't be surprised if elite athletes can push off old age to lengthen their careers way above what we see now. We will be seeing elite athletes over 40.
The biggest fight against PEDs has been in cycling. But cyclists have always avoided getting caught outright. Only when mistakes are made or when they get reckless the get caught. Most stuff we know we know from police raids and confessions. Doping control is a farse. Overeem got caught. Contador got caught. I don't believe that those that get caught are any more guilty than those that don't. I believe there are clean people in sports like MMA. But in endurance sports you just can't compete with dopers. The advantage of doping vs the advantage of talent is just too big. Yeah Overeem looked really ripped. Maybe his was a case of recklessness. The way he put on the muscle and the way he looked does seem suspicious. But that's not what I go off. I rather go off on facts. Maybe Overeem was just reckless with his dosing. I know in cycling they can still use EPO but they have to dose carefully. EPO increased their performances with like 20% and with the new refulations in place the huge performance boosts EPO gave is now gone and performances are no longer obviously superhuman.
In WWE we know they all use sterioids. I don't see such a difference between what I see in WWE and what I see with the more muscular guys in MMA or K-1.
When someone with a lot of talent, ie genetic endowement, uses doping, it is going to be a lot more obvious. During the EPO days being 'talented' basically came down to only one thing; how well does your body respond to epo treatment. So there are always going to be atheletes with less talent performing near the top because they are cheating and they don't stick out as much. So part of Overeem being suspicious also has to do with his genes and his work ethic.
The whole body image popular now I think is basically unachievable without steroids. We all grew up with Hulk Hogan, Stallone and Schwarzenegger. Three famous steroid users. Right now we have shows like Spartacus. This extremely low fat look really starts to annoy me.
The fact that this fight can probably still go on, if I am understanding this correctly, is kind of odd and shows they don't want athletes to stop PEDing and that they test only for public image. Cheating is cheating. If you set a rule and you break it, it doesn't matter if it is using PEDs or using brass knuckles or weighted gloves. Of course it also doesn't matter if he tests again and he is clean then, lol.
If they allow the fight to go on they basically all admit to doping. If Dos Santos does not refuse to fight, he basically admits to doping as well.
I say, get rid of doping controls. They are useless and it's not fair to those who get caught because they aren't any more guilty than anyone else. Then if you decide to prevent doping, lock all elite athletes in some kind of prison regime and have them under surveillance so you know they are almost certainly all clean. Because that's the only way that works. Especially considering future developments. Then you can also cancel all old world records in athletics. They are almost all performed with PEDs and you can't figure out the few clean ones that may be still among them for them dirty ones. No reason keeping them if you decide to clean up the sport.
Then way into the future we still get the problem that everyone but elite athletes are using PEDs and that normal people outperform the most genetically gifted elite athletes. Who still cares about all this stuff then?
On April 07 2012 03:11 Trizz wrote: I'm so fucking dissapointed in Overeem. One of my favorite fighters, one of the best fights of the year cancelled. Anger mixed with dissapointment, god damnit Overeem.
This. I was so pumped for the fight... Now we got to watch JDS vs Mir -_- Nothing against Mir, but come on Overeem seemed to be on a different level compared to the other HWs. Now we have Overeem taking out Lesnar one i also loved watching in the UFC(I dont limke wrestling lol) and OVereem gone too. HW suddenly seems a lot less exciting
Not saying he wasn't juicing, but you're calling a 205 to 250 jump in a year impossible? Now that is bullshit, at 205 he was killing himself dehydrating and starving just to make weight and already at a training camp weight closer to 230-235. A change in diet and hitting the weights in exchange for cardio and that extra 15-20lbs of muscle over a year is nothing special.
On April 22 2012 12:59 NotSorry wrote: Not saying he wasn't juicing, but you're calling a 205 to 250 jump in a year impossible? Now that is bullshit, at 205 he was killing himself dehydrating and starving just to make weight and already at a training camp weight closer to 230-235. A change in diet and hitting the weights in exchange for cardio and that extra 15-20lbs of muscle over a year is nothing special.
anyone who puts on 15-20lbs of muscle in a year is juicing, unless it's their first year working out. you realize how many guys lie about juicing? lol
Apr 23, 2012 - Alistair Overeem has broken his silence for the first time since the Nevada State Athletic Commission announced earlier this month that he failed a pre-UFC 146 drug test.
Overeem, who was scheduled to meet Junior dos Santos for the UFC heavyweight title next month until the promotion replaced him with Frank Mir, issued a written statement explaining why his testosterone to epitestosterone ratio came back at an above-limit 14:1. The NSAC's T/E ratio limit is 6:1.
In the statement, Overeem announced that he withdrew from UFC 146 and explained why his T/E ratio was so high. According to Overeem's camp, he withdraw on Friday and that's when the UFC decided to replace him with Mir. His manager Glenn Robinson told MMAFighting.com that Overeem didn’t, "formally withdraw his license application, he withdrew from the fight and asked for a continuance to hear the case so he can prove he is a clean fighter.'
You can read the full statement below.
To my friends and fans,
I am deeply saddened to announce that on Friday, April 20, I respectfully withdrew from the May 26 event so that I can request a continuance until my situation with the Nevada State Athletic Commission is resolved.
I cannot express how sorry I am to the Commission, Junior Dos Santos, the fans, the owners and employees of the UFC, my friends and family and anyone else who this has affected.
I absolutely do not believe in, nor do I use performance-enhancing drugs. I am a clean fighter and I will do whatever it takes to prove this to everyone.
Prior to the UFC 146 press conference in March, I aggravated an old rib injury on my left side. My doctor prescribed, and I accepted, an anti-inflammatory medication that was mixed with testosterone. I was completely unaware that testosterone was one of the ingredients in the medication. Although I was unaware, I do realize it is my job to know what I am putting into my body.
I respect the Nevada Commissioners and Executive Director Keith Kizer and what they are doing to keep the sport of mixed martial arts regulated and safe for athletes. I look forward to working with them in the days and weeks ahead.
Friends and fans, I ask for your patience as I work through this matter. Please support me. I promise to return to the Octagon soon.
Ariel Helwani explains why withdrawing was the smartest option for Overeem:
@arielhelwani As I tweeted Friday night, withdrawing his license application was the smartest thing Alistair could do at this point. If he would have went through with it and was found guilty, there is a good chance he would not have been able to fight in the US for a year. Now it's up to the NSAC to grant his request.
Here's their language for a situation like this. Basically, they can grant his request with or without prejudice or they can go through with it tomorrow:
NAC 467.014 Application for license: Request for withdrawal. (NRS 467.030, 467.100) 1. An applicant for a license may file a written request with the Commission to withdraw his or her application at any time before final action upon the application by the Commission. 2. In making a determination on a request to withdraw an application, the Commission may, in its discretion: (a) Deny the request; or (b) Grant the request with or without prejudice. 3. If the request for withdrawal is granted with prejudice, the applicant is not eligible to apply again for licensing until 1 year after the date the Commission grants the request.
And below is precisely why Alistair withdrew his application:
NAC 467.087 Application for new license or petition for reinstatement of license after denial, revocation or suspension.(NRS 467.030, 467.080, 467.100, 467.159) 1. Any applicant who has been denied a license by the Commission may not file a similar application until 1 year after denial.
And when we will most likely learn of the NSAC's response:
@arielhelwani I asked NSAC Executive Director Keith Kizer over the weekend if Overeem had withdrawn his application yet, but he didn't reply. There's a good chance we'll only find out their response at tomorrow's hearing. The NSAC was informed of this request on Friday by Overeem's lawyers, who also mapped out everything written in today's statement. So we may have to wait another 24 hours before finding out Overeem's fate.
On April 22 2012 12:59 NotSorry wrote: Not saying he wasn't juicing, but you're calling a 205 to 250 jump in a year impossible? Now that is bullshit, at 205 he was killing himself dehydrating and starving just to make weight and already at a training camp weight closer to 230-235. A change in diet and hitting the weights in exchange for cardio and that extra 15-20lbs of muscle over a year is nothing special.
anyone who puts on 15-20lbs of muscle in a year is juicing, unless it's their first year working out. you realize how many guys lie about juicing? lol
I've been in train/competing in boxing and mma for over 7 years now, trust me I know more than most just how many pros are juicing that have never been caught. However what I said above still stands. Even without juicing those results are possible, I'm not saying he didn't or he did, just that using that as the basis for your argument is terribly inaccurate.
On April 22 2012 12:59 NotSorry wrote: Not saying he wasn't juicing, but you're calling a 205 to 250 jump in a year impossible? Now that is bullshit, at 205 he was killing himself dehydrating and starving just to make weight and already at a training camp weight closer to 230-235. A change in diet and hitting the weights in exchange for cardio and that extra 15-20lbs of muscle over a year is nothing special.
anyone who puts on 15-20lbs of muscle in a year is juicing, unless it's their first year working out. you realize how many guys lie about juicing? lol
I've been in train/competing in boxing and mma for over 7 years now, trust me I know more than most just how many pros are juicing that have never been caught. However what I said above still stands. Even without juicing those results are possible, I'm not saying he didn't or he did, just that using that as the basis for your argument is terribly inaccurate.
i've been a gym rat for about that same time too, and i also know people who tell everyone else they're natural when they're not.
sure someone can put on 15-20lbs if they're dehydrated etc, but of pure 100% muscle? after working out for years? you can't put on 15-20lbs of muscle in a year after working out for 2 years...
I didn't know the hearing was today, luckily I checked Twitter. Also Ariel Helwani just tweeted again. His license has been denied and can't reapply for 9 months.
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