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Chess 960 Match - TL Community Chess Match 5 - Page 2

Forum Index > General Games
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Ng5
Profile Joined December 2009
702 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-18 05:39:47
January 18 2012 05:38 GMT
#21
Gonna do this the old traditional way. I mean randomizing.

Writing all the moves up on separate pieces of papers. Putting them in my hat. Shaking well. Asking my friend to tell me a number between 1 and 19 (say, i) and make the move that I pull out of the hat for the ith time.

So exciting.

I'm actually considering making it more random with maybe only letting myself choose from 3-5-7 moves that I randomly choose in the same manner for the 2nd-3rd-4th move I make.
garbanzo
Profile Joined October 2009
United States4046 Posts
January 19 2012 21:30 GMT
#22
Alright, I'm in with this. Let's try this out. I've never played Chess960 before.
Even during difficult times, when I sat down to play the game, there were times where it felt like god has descended down and played [for me].
Ng5
Profile Joined December 2009
702 Posts
January 20 2012 04:52 GMT
#23
It's been ten years when I last played it I think. And only in correspondence on some random site. No more than a dozen games total I think.

I've wanted to pick it up, but instead of the 3+1 time control that ICC has I wanted to do it longer timed. I want to spend time in awe and soak up all the beauty of every starting positions, instead of trolling out random moves that happens too often in a real game.

That and my life got more... let's say 'exciting', so I don't mind having some slower paced hobbies now.

I think this should be a lot of fun altogether.
HypertonicHydroponic
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
437 Posts
January 22 2012 21:45 GMT
#24
I'm up for this, too. Reminder PM's not necessary, I will vote when I get the opportunity, but will try to keep up.
[P] The Watery Archives -- http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=279070
Durak
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
Canada3685 Posts
January 22 2012 21:49 GMT
#25
I'm going to sign up for this. I like the idea of participating in 960 rather than a regular game.
Ng5
Profile Joined December 2009
702 Posts
January 23 2012 04:39 GMT
#26
Stay tuned. Doing the draft in a second.
Ng5
Profile Joined December 2009
702 Posts
January 23 2012 05:10 GMT
#27
Move posted, OP moved to the first reply.
HypertonicHydroponic
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
437 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-23 05:47:18
January 23 2012 05:45 GMT
#28
If I understand the castling rules correctly, isn't 0-0 technically a viable first move in this position? (thus making your actual first move list 20 instead of 19) whoops! nm, was looking at it backwards, lol
[P] The Watery Archives -- http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=279070
Ng5
Profile Joined December 2009
702 Posts
January 23 2012 23:33 GMT
#29
Sorry posted from white's point of view again.

I will change it soon. Gonna subscribe to ICC again between now and forever and will use that for random setups as in the other thread.
qrs
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States3637 Posts
January 23 2012 23:51 GMT
#30
Here's the current position on a board that you can manipulate.

I'll start the voting by selecting 1...g6, or Qrs's Opening, since I don't know of a prior claimant.
'As per the American Heart Association, the beat of the Bee Gees song "Stayin' Alive" provides an ideal rhythm in terms of beats per minute to use for hands-only CPR. One can also hum Queen's "Another One Bites The Dust".' —Wikipedia
calgar
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
United States1277 Posts
January 25 2012 03:46 GMT
#31
The qrs opening. Hm.
+ Show Spoiler +
Nice to activate the bishop and aim at the king but I vote for direct control of the center first. If he is randomly moving then we can bring our nice friend Ed along with e5 and d5.

Allow me to present the calgar initial 6-move action plan.
[image loading]
Which will result in a basic setup like this.
[image loading]

This pretty much incorporates the qrs plan but I would just go with e5 or d5 first. Ng5 (lol) is met easily with Nf6. The light-squared bishop can also go to d7/b5. Anyways, in this case I say d5 because it activates the light-square bishop and rook. After the 6 move plan we can 0-0 after developing the queen to e7? perhaps or 0-0-0 after Re8 to connect our rooks on the back rank.
qrs
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States3637 Posts
January 25 2012 06:54 GMT
#32
On January 25 2012 12:46 calgar wrote:
The qrs opening. Hm.
+ Show Spoiler +
Nice to activate the bishop and aim at the king but I vote for direct control of the center first. If he is randomly moving then we can bring our nice friend Ed along with e5 and d5.

Allow me to present the calgar initial 6-move action plan.
[image loading]
Which will result in a basic setup like this.
[image loading]

This pretty much incorporates the qrs plan but I would just go with e5 or d5 first. Ng5 (lol) is met easily with Nf6. The light-squared bishop can also go to d7/b5. Anyways, in this case I say d5 because it activates the light-square bishop and rook. After the 6 move plan we can 0-0 after developing the queen to e7? perhaps or 0-0-0 after Re8 to connect our rooks on the back rank.
Nice of you to talk about a "qrs plan", but even I have to admit that one move is hardly a plan. However, in response to your post, I will present my own thoughts on the position, and my own five-or-six-move plan, which differs from yours.

First of all, some general thoughts on the starting position:
+ Show Spoiler [general thoughts] +

1) Both we and our opponent have to move the g-pawn, to activate the h-bishop. It doesn't have to be right away, but at some point we will almost certainly have to play g6 (g5 being ruled out for the moment by the Nh3). Thus it makes sense that the move ...g6 appears in both the calgar and the qrs opening plans.

2) After we do move the g-pawn, our dark-squared Bishop is instantly activated along the long diagonal. It will take us at least two extra moves to transfer it somewhere else, and for the moment, there's no compelling reason for us to expect that we will do that. Therefore, I think that if possible we should avoid limiting our own Bishop by blocking this diagonal.

2a) Specifically, this means avoiding the moves ...f6 and ...e5 (...Nf6 is not as bad because it's easier to move a Knight at will than to move pawns). Already this means that I take issue with the move ...e5 in the calgar plan.

3) Since we will have to move the g-pawn in any case (point 1), we open the avenue to develop our Queen to h3. This is an attractive square for a number of reasons. Several of them have to do with our opponent's opening choice, and I will elaborate on those below. At any rate, ...Qh3 is a move that we can play no matter what else we do (because we are definitely moving the g-pawn).


Secondly, some thoughts on the position after our opponent's randomly-selected and presumably suboptimal first move, which we ought to take advantage of if we can.
+ Show Spoiler [thoughts on 1. Nh3 (warning--long!)] +
1. We can expect that our opponent won't move the Knight again in the opening--and if he does, that's a victory for us. Also, the Knight is not especially well-defended: currently it's defended by a single pawn, which we'd be happy to pull to h3 (doubling/isolating two of Black's pawns). In any case, the pawn plans to move (to uncover the Bishop), as mentioned above. After the pawn moves, the Knight will be defended only by the Queen.

2. This suggests another component of the qrs plan: attack the Knight, via ...d6, ...Bd7. For this reason I take issue with the ...Bc6 component of the calgar plan: I think that we can take better advantage of White's first move by using our light-squared Bishop to take aim at the Knight.

3. In turn, intending to post the Bishop on d7 explains why I, at least initially, preferred ...d6 to ...d5: after our opponent moves his g-pawn (which he will surely do after we play ...Bd7, if not before) a pawn on d5 may become vulnerable to his Bishop. However, perhaps I'm being overcautious here. I'm willing to consider ...d5 over ...d6

4. Putting the Knight on h3 has weakened White's h-pawn. That pawn was already weak because there's no Rook on h1 in this game. Putting the Knight on h3 means that White can't defend the pawn by a) playing Nf3, b) playing h3, or c) playing Qh3.

5. Points 1 and 4 suggest the next component of the qrs plan, already alluded to above: ...Qh3. This move can accomplish a number of things (partly depending on what our opponent does with his future moves, of course)
  • Pin our opponents d-pawn.
  • Put pressure on our opponent's h3 Knight.
  • Pin our opponent's Knight to the h2 pawn, which is weak, as mentioned above.

6. ...Qh3 works in conjunction with ...Bd7 to pressure the Knight. I imagine that White will respond with something like g3 and Bg2 to defend it. At all events, though, this ties down both the Bishop and Queen to defending the Knight and forces White to make an extra move with his light-squared Bishop, while we are only making developing moves.

7. ...Nf6 is a slightly tricky one: like calgar, I would like to play it; on the other hand, there is the question of whether to play it in front of or behind the f-pawn. Also, on f6 it blocks our Bishop, which is something to keep in mind.

8. One of the reasons I'd like to put the Knight on f6 is to threaten ...Ng4, after which the Knight threatens the h-pawn, which, as mentioned above, is not so easy for White to defend. For this reason, my trigger for playing ...Ng4 is White's playing f4. That's a plausible move for White, especially after ...Qh3: it gains space on the board, opens an avenue for White's dark-squared Bishop to develop, and relieves our pin of the d-pawn. On the other hand, it makes g4 a safe square for our Knight. So as soon White plays f4, I'm ready to play ...Nf6.

9. At this point in the qrs opening plan, we already have developed our Queen, light-squared Bishop, and h-side Knight anyway, so we could consider ...0-0, as calgar suggests. Not bound to it, though.


So in short, my counter-plan for an opening set-up looks something like this.
'As per the American Heart Association, the beat of the Bee Gees song "Stayin' Alive" provides an ideal rhythm in terms of beats per minute to use for hands-only CPR. One can also hum Queen's "Another One Bites The Dust".' —Wikipedia
Zen5034
Profile Joined July 2011
United States384 Posts
January 25 2012 14:56 GMT
#33
I am sold on the qrs opening.
Jaedong!
calgar
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
United States1277 Posts
January 25 2012 17:54 GMT
#34
+ Show Spoiler +
Interesting. I'll throw out some random ideas here.

It looks like you've proposed a hypo-modern King's Indian development. This is going to allow white to set up shop and occupy the center with something like e4-d4 and c3 or f3. The KI plays for space on the kingside by advancing the f-pawn and gaining initiative while the center remains locked. In this case our king isn't on the kingside yet and the center remains open. To me this looks like it leaves us without a plan going into the middlegame. What is the plan to disrupt white's stronger center? I'm going to assume it will be stronger since all of our moves are allowing him to occupy it with pawns.

In response to blocking our dark square bishop, I don't think the knight blocking the fianchettoed bishop is an issue to be worried about since this happens in essentially every fianchetto opening. The pawn at e5 is well-placed and I feel that the control it asserts outweighs blocking the bishop since it is most likely to be temporary due to potential exchanges or advancing.

A thing to note, I'm assuming by ...Qh3 you mean Qh6 In regards to Qh6: The idea of attacking the knight is a good one. If white has played d4, though, he can immediately develop the bishop with tempo on the queen. Where does she go from there? g7 creates a battery but is essentially biting on rock since the queen will inevitably be attacking a protected piece. h5 and h4 seem misplaced and vulnerable to further harassment. Undeveloping back to f8 isn't attractive either. If Qh6 is immediately responded to by Bd2 then our tactic of attacking the knight loses its power. Along this note, would we really want to exchange bishop for knight? It doubles his pawns but if we can't take advantage of them by attacking them then we might regret it in the endgame if it becomes NvsB. He may fianchetto or move the knight to f4 also.

I do agree that c6 may not be the best place for the bishop. It's hard to tell on move 1 where it will end up but I think it is at least a possibility. I have a feeling b5 may end up being stronger since a4 will not be able to harass it as easily as a normal position.

I'm going to stand by 1... d5 as my vote for strongest first move. It is protected and right away stops e4. He has essentially given us white by playing a weak move so I don't think it makes sense to play hypomodern. Sure, it works, but in theory I think we would be better off seizing the initiative rather than playing hypomodern 1-move up.


On January 25 2012 15:54 qrs wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 25 2012 12:46 calgar wrote:
The qrs opening. Hm.
+ Show Spoiler +
Nice to activate the bishop and aim at the king but I vote for direct control of the center first. If he is randomly moving then we can bring our nice friend Ed along with e5 and d5.

Allow me to present the calgar initial 6-move action plan.
[image loading]
Which will result in a basic setup like this.
[image loading]

This pretty much incorporates the qrs plan but I would just go with e5 or d5 first. Ng5 (lol) is met easily with Nf6. The light-squared bishop can also go to d7/b5. Anyways, in this case I say d5 because it activates the light-square bishop and rook. After the 6 move plan we can 0-0 after developing the queen to e7? perhaps or 0-0-0 after Re8 to connect our rooks on the back rank.
Nice of you to talk about a "qrs plan", but even I have to admit that one move is hardly a plan. However, in response to your post, I will present my own thoughts on the position, and my own five-or-six-move plan, which differs from yours.

First of all, some general thoughts on the starting position:
+ Show Spoiler [general thoughts] +

1) Both we and our opponent have to move the g-pawn, to activate the h-bishop. It doesn't have to be right away, but at some point we will almost certainly have to play g6 (g5 being ruled out for the moment by the Nh3). Thus it makes sense that the move ...g6 appears in both the calgar and the qrs opening plans.

2) After we do move the g-pawn, our dark-squared Bishop is instantly activated along the long diagonal. It will take us at least two extra moves to transfer it somewhere else, and for the moment, there's no compelling reason for us to expect that we will do that. Therefore, I think that if possible we should avoid limiting our own Bishop by blocking this diagonal.

2a) Specifically, this means avoiding the moves ...f6 and ...e5 (...Nf6 is not as bad because it's easier to move a Knight at will than to move pawns). Already this means that I take issue with the move ...e5 in the calgar plan.

3) Since we will have to move the g-pawn in any case (point 1), we open the avenue to develop our Queen to h3. This is an attractive square for a number of reasons. Several of them have to do with our opponent's opening choice, and I will elaborate on those below. At any rate, ...Qh3 is a move that we can play no matter what else we do (because we are definitely moving the g-pawn).


Secondly, some thoughts on the position after our opponent's randomly-selected and presumably suboptimal first move, which we ought to take advantage of if we can.
+ Show Spoiler [thoughts on 1. Nh3 (warning--long!)] +
1. We can expect that our opponent won't move the Knight again in the opening--and if he does, that's a victory for us. Also, the Knight is not especially well-defended: currently it's defended by a single pawn, which we'd be happy to pull to h3 (doubling/isolating two of Black's pawns). In any case, the pawn plans to move (to uncover the Bishop), as mentioned above. After the pawn moves, the Knight will be defended only by the Queen.

2. This suggests another component of the qrs plan: attack the Knight, via ...d6, ...Bd7. For this reason I take issue with the ...Bc6 component of the calgar plan: I think that we can take better advantage of White's first move by using our light-squared Bishop to take aim at the Knight.

3. In turn, intending to post the Bishop on d7 explains why I, at least initially, preferred ...d6 to ...d5: after our opponent moves his g-pawn (which he will surely do after we play ...Bd7, if not before) a pawn on d5 may become vulnerable to his Bishop. However, perhaps I'm being overcautious here. I'm willing to consider ...d5 over ...d6

4. Putting the Knight on h3 has weakened White's h-pawn. That pawn was already weak because there's no Rook on h1 in this game. Putting the Knight on h3 means that White can't defend the pawn by a) playing Nf3, b) playing h3, or c) playing Qh3.

5. Points 1 and 4 suggest the next component of the qrs plan, already alluded to above: ...Qh3. This move can accomplish a number of things (partly depending on what our opponent does with his future moves, of course)
  • Pin our opponents d-pawn.
  • Put pressure on our opponent's h3 Knight.
  • Pin our opponent's Knight to the h2 pawn, which is weak, as mentioned above.

6. ...Qh3 works in conjunction with ...Bd7 to pressure the Knight. I imagine that White will respond with something like g3 and Bg2 to defend it. At all events, though, this ties down both the Bishop and Queen to defending the Knight and forces White to make an extra move with his light-squared Bishop, while we are only making developing moves.

7. ...Nf6 is a slightly tricky one: like calgar, I would like to play it; on the other hand, there is the question of whether to play it in front of or behind the f-pawn. Also, on f6 it blocks our Bishop, which is something to keep in mind.

8. One of the reasons I'd like to put the Knight on f6 is to threaten ...Ng4, after which the Knight threatens the h-pawn, which, as mentioned above, is not so easy for White to defend. For this reason, my trigger for playing ...Ng4 is White's playing f4. That's a plausible move for White, especially after ...Qh3: it gains space on the board, opens an avenue for White's dark-squared Bishop to develop, and relieves our pin of the d-pawn. On the other hand, it makes g4 a safe square for our Knight. So as soon White plays f4, I'm ready to play ...Nf6.

9. At this point in the qrs opening plan, we already have developed our Queen, light-squared Bishop, and h-side Knight anyway, so we could consider ...0-0, as calgar suggests. Not bound to it, though.


So in short, my counter-plan for an opening set-up looks something like this.
qrs
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States3637 Posts
January 25 2012 20:11 GMT
#35
On January 26 2012 02:54 calgar wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
Interesting. I'll throw out some random ideas here.

It looks like you've proposed a hypo-modern King's Indian development. This is going to allow white to set up shop and occupy the center with something like e4-d4 and c3 or f3. The KI plays for space on the kingside by advancing the f-pawn and gaining initiative while the center remains locked. In this case our king isn't on the kingside yet and the center remains open. To me this looks like it leaves us without a plan going into the middlegame. What is the plan to disrupt white's stronger center? I'm going to assume it will be stronger since all of our moves are allowing him to occupy it with pawns.

In response to blocking our dark square bishop, I don't think the knight blocking the fianchettoed bishop is an issue to be worried about since this happens in essentially every fianchetto opening. The pawn at e5 is well-placed and I feel that the control it asserts outweighs blocking the bishop since it is most likely to be temporary due to potential exchanges or advancing.

A thing to note, I'm assuming by ...Qh3 you mean Qh6 In regards to Qh6: The idea of attacking the knight is a good one. If white has played d4, though, he can immediately develop the bishop with tempo on the queen. Where does she go from there? g7 creates a battery but is essentially biting on rock since the queen will inevitably be attacking a protected piece. h5 and h4 seem misplaced and vulnerable to further harassment. Undeveloping back to f8 isn't attractive either. If Qh6 is immediately responded to by Bd2 then our tactic of attacking the knight loses its power. Along this note, would we really want to exchange bishop for knight? It doubles his pawns but if we can't take advantage of them by attacking them then we might regret it in the endgame if it becomes NvsB. He may fianchetto or move the knight to f4 also.

I do agree that c6 may not be the best place for the bishop. It's hard to tell on move 1 where it will end up but I think it is at least a possibility. I have a feeling b5 may end up being stronger since a4 will not be able to harass it as easily as a normal position.

I'm going to stand by 1... d5 as my vote for strongest first move. It is protected and right away stops e4. He has essentially given us white by playing a weak move so I don't think it makes sense to play hypomodern. Sure, it works, but in theory I think we would be better off seizing the initiative rather than playing hypomodern 1-move up.


Show nested quote +
On January 25 2012 15:54 qrs wrote:
On January 25 2012 12:46 calgar wrote:
The qrs opening. Hm.
+ Show Spoiler +
Nice to activate the bishop and aim at the king but I vote for direct control of the center first. If he is randomly moving then we can bring our nice friend Ed along with e5 and d5.

Allow me to present the calgar initial 6-move action plan.
[image loading]
Which will result in a basic setup like this.
[image loading]

This pretty much incorporates the qrs plan but I would just go with e5 or d5 first. Ng5 (lol) is met easily with Nf6. The light-squared bishop can also go to d7/b5. Anyways, in this case I say d5 because it activates the light-square bishop and rook. After the 6 move plan we can 0-0 after developing the queen to e7? perhaps or 0-0-0 after Re8 to connect our rooks on the back rank.
Nice of you to talk about a "qrs plan", but even I have to admit that one move is hardly a plan. However, in response to your post, I will present my own thoughts on the position, and my own five-or-six-move plan, which differs from yours.

First of all, some general thoughts on the starting position:
+ Show Spoiler [general thoughts] +

1) Both we and our opponent have to move the g-pawn, to activate the h-bishop. It doesn't have to be right away, but at some point we will almost certainly have to play g6 (g5 being ruled out for the moment by the Nh3). Thus it makes sense that the move ...g6 appears in both the calgar and the qrs opening plans.

2) After we do move the g-pawn, our dark-squared Bishop is instantly activated along the long diagonal. It will take us at least two extra moves to transfer it somewhere else, and for the moment, there's no compelling reason for us to expect that we will do that. Therefore, I think that if possible we should avoid limiting our own Bishop by blocking this diagonal.

2a) Specifically, this means avoiding the moves ...f6 and ...e5 (...Nf6 is not as bad because it's easier to move a Knight at will than to move pawns). Already this means that I take issue with the move ...e5 in the calgar plan.

3) Since we will have to move the g-pawn in any case (point 1), we open the avenue to develop our Queen to h3. This is an attractive square for a number of reasons. Several of them have to do with our opponent's opening choice, and I will elaborate on those below. At any rate, ...Qh3 is a move that we can play no matter what else we do (because we are definitely moving the g-pawn).


Secondly, some thoughts on the position after our opponent's randomly-selected and presumably suboptimal first move, which we ought to take advantage of if we can.
+ Show Spoiler [thoughts on 1. Nh3 (warning--long!)] +
1. We can expect that our opponent won't move the Knight again in the opening--and if he does, that's a victory for us. Also, the Knight is not especially well-defended: currently it's defended by a single pawn, which we'd be happy to pull to h3 (doubling/isolating two of Black's pawns). In any case, the pawn plans to move (to uncover the Bishop), as mentioned above. After the pawn moves, the Knight will be defended only by the Queen.

2. This suggests another component of the qrs plan: attack the Knight, via ...d6, ...Bd7. For this reason I take issue with the ...Bc6 component of the calgar plan: I think that we can take better advantage of White's first move by using our light-squared Bishop to take aim at the Knight.

3. In turn, intending to post the Bishop on d7 explains why I, at least initially, preferred ...d6 to ...d5: after our opponent moves his g-pawn (which he will surely do after we play ...Bd7, if not before) a pawn on d5 may become vulnerable to his Bishop. However, perhaps I'm being overcautious here. I'm willing to consider ...d5 over ...d6

4. Putting the Knight on h3 has weakened White's h-pawn. That pawn was already weak because there's no Rook on h1 in this game. Putting the Knight on h3 means that White can't defend the pawn by a) playing Nf3, b) playing h3, or c) playing Qh3.

5. Points 1 and 4 suggest the next component of the qrs plan, already alluded to above: ...Qh3. This move can accomplish a number of things (partly depending on what our opponent does with his future moves, of course)
  • Pin our opponents d-pawn.
  • Put pressure on our opponent's h3 Knight.
  • Pin our opponent's Knight to the h2 pawn, which is weak, as mentioned above.

6. ...Qh3 works in conjunction with ...Bd7 to pressure the Knight. I imagine that White will respond with something like g3 and Bg2 to defend it. At all events, though, this ties down both the Bishop and Queen to defending the Knight and forces White to make an extra move with his light-squared Bishop, while we are only making developing moves.

7. ...Nf6 is a slightly tricky one: like calgar, I would like to play it; on the other hand, there is the question of whether to play it in front of or behind the f-pawn. Also, on f6 it blocks our Bishop, which is something to keep in mind.

8. One of the reasons I'd like to put the Knight on f6 is to threaten ...Ng4, after which the Knight threatens the h-pawn, which, as mentioned above, is not so easy for White to defend. For this reason, my trigger for playing ...Ng4 is White's playing f4. That's a plausible move for White, especially after ...Qh3: it gains space on the board, opens an avenue for White's dark-squared Bishop to develop, and relieves our pin of the d-pawn. On the other hand, it makes g4 a safe square for our Knight. So as soon White plays f4, I'm ready to play ...Nf6.

9. At this point in the qrs opening plan, we already have developed our Queen, light-squared Bishop, and h-side Knight anyway, so we could consider ...0-0, as calgar suggests. Not bound to it, though.


So in short, my counter-plan for an opening set-up looks something like this.
Thanks for the thorough response!

By the way, "hypo" is actually the opposite of "hyper", which can be confusing. Not that it really matters--I knew what you meant.

OK, getting to the meat of your post. First of all, I'd like to note that it's hard to generalize about our next six moves without any reference to what our opponent plays, and it's starting to show in our discussion. You make some good points, and I can't really address them without getting more concrete than we've been, so I'm going to start giving some sample lines in the following response.

+ Show Spoiler [warning--even longer than my last!] +
1. Blocking the h8 Bishop:
A)
In response to blocking our dark square bishop, I don't think the knight blocking the fianchettoed bishop is an issue to be worried about since this happens in essentially every fianchetto opening.

I essentially agree with you on this point--after all, I agreed with you in wanting to play ...Nf6. I only said that it's something to keep in mind: there might be times when we want the Bishop unblocked (without needing an extra move to unblock it), so everything else being equal, it makes sense to play our other moves before ...Nf6, unless we have a reason to play it earlier.

For example, you suggest the possibility of White's playing d4 and Bd2, to threaten a Queen on h3. These two moves leave White's d-pawn temporarily undefended: an unblocked Bh8 would put a crimp in that plan. Here's a line to illustrate:
1. Nh3 d6 different move order, but part of the same opening plan that I outlined above
2. d4 as you suggested for White: controls the center, develops, etc.
2...Bd7 threatens to disrupt White's pawn structure with 3...BxN
3. g3 in response to the above threat
3...g6 threatening to win the Knight by the fork 4...Qh3+

Now, at this point, White might want to play 4. Bd2, preventing ...Qh3+ and developing a piece at the same time. However, because our Bishop threatens the pawn on d4, he cannot play this move. A Knight on f6 would deprive us of this tactical resource.

This certainly doesn't refute the idea of ...Nf6, of course, and as I said, I'd like to play that too. It's just an illustration of the sort of idea that makes me cautious about playing that move before we have to.

B)
The pawn at e5 is well-placed and I feel that the control it asserts outweighs blocking the bishop since it is most likely to be temporary due to potential exchanges or advancing.

Here I disagree with you. I'll grant the "well-placed" part except insofar as it blocks the Bishop, but I don't think that we can say that "it is most likely to be temporary due to potential exchanges or advancing". I think that's largely in the hands of our opponent. If he plays to prevent us from advancing or exchanging the e5-pawn--for instance by playing d3 and g3, I'm not at all sure that we have a good way to get the pawn off e5--and if it's going to sit there and block our Bishop all game (or until we spend several moves getting the Bishop to a worse diagonal than it currently occupies), I don't think we can call the e5 pawn well-placed at all.

2. ...Qh36
A thing to note, I'm assuming by ...Qh3 you mean Qh6 In regards to Qh6: The idea of attacking the knight is a good one. If white has played d4, though, he can immediately develop the bishop with tempo on the queen. Where does she go from there? ...

Say no more. The fault is mine for overgeneralizing here. I don't want to play ...Qh6 (yes, that's what I meant; thanks for catching that) in the situation you describe, where White has moved his d-pawn, but not his dark-squared Bishop, and with the Knight well-defended. In that case, I agree that ...Qh6 would be a bad move for the reason you show: it loses tempo. Here are the situations where I'd like to play it:

A) If White has not moved his d-pawn yet--in which case it pins the d-pawn, as I said. Here's a very basic line to illustrate that case: 1. Nh3 g6 2. g3 Qh3.

B) If we'd be doubly attacking the Knight by playing that move. Here's a line that shows what I mean: 1. Nh3 g6 2. e4 d6 3. d4 Bd7 4. g3? Qh6+ 5. Bd2 Qxh3.

Of course, that last line would never actually happen--because g3 would be a blunder. But White doesn't have too many good alternative 4th moves either: 4. Nc4 (besides spending a second move on the Knight) would still allow 4...Qh6, winning that weak h-pawn, and if White just ignores the threat to his Knight, then 4...BxN doubles/isolates his pawns, as mentioned. So what this line shows is that the threat of Qh6+ can be pretty strong in these lines--so strong, that White may very well think twice before moving his d-pawn in these situations. If White doesn't move his d-pawn right away, see A).

3. ...Bd7 to attack the Knight
Along this note, would we really want to exchange bishop for knight? It doubles his pawns but if we can't take advantage of them by attacking them then we might regret it in the endgame if it becomes NvsB. He may fianchetto or move the knight to f4 also.

Well this is an important point, since I've been basing a lot of my reasoning on the assumption that yes, we would. First of all, it not only doubles his pawns, but moves the g-pawn away from the center, and isolates both. That weakens them greatly, and I think it is a weakness that we could take advantage of at all times in the game (assuming that Ng5 doesn't just outright sac one for initiative, as he did in TL Chess Match 4). Among other things, we can pressure the h3 pawn with the several-times-aforementioned ...Qh6.

In any case, even if we decide that we don't want to make that trade, the combination of a Bishop on d7 and a Queen on h6--or the threat of a Queen on h6, still puts a lot of pressure on White. After all, he has to move that g-pawn at some point, or his Bishop is blocked in forever.

4. Whether to play ...d5 or d6
I'm going to stand by 1... d5 as my vote for strongest first move. It is protected and right away stops e4.

I've explained my reasoning for disagreeing with you on this one: it basically follows from our other disagreements:

A) I want to put our Bishop on d7, which means that e4 will be temporarily unprotected (if we haven't played ...Ng6, which I don't think should be a priority as it doesn't pressure White at all), and potentially subject to attack from White's Bh1. Here's a very basic line that illustrates that: 1. Nh3 d5 2. g3, and now we can no longer play ...Bd7 without taking an extra move to defend our d-pawn.

B) You want to stop e4; on the contrary, I'd be happy for White to play it--and then to stop e5, instead, leaving White to block his own Bishop. See point 1B), above.

5. Control of the center
It looks like you've proposed a hypo-modern King's Indian development. This is going to allow white to set up shop and occupy the center with something like e4-d4 and c3 or f3. The KI plays for space on the kingside by advancing the f-pawn and gaining initiative while the center remains locked. In this case our king isn't on the kingside yet and the center remains open. To me this looks like it leaves us without a plan going into the middlegame. What is the plan to disrupt white's stronger center? I'm going to assume it will be stronger since all of our moves are allowing him to occupy it with pawns.


I haven't addressed this yet, because I think it's a bit too early to talk about it. You're making the assumption that White has the time to set up a strong center while we ignore it, but I'm not sure that's the case. I've already given reasons why I think White should hesitate to play a quick d4, for instance, and for why e4 is better for us than for White, in my opinion, so, vaguely speaking, at least, I'm not envisioning White gaining control of the center here. If you want to talk about this point, give me a line where White takes control of the center as we pursue the plan I've been describing. Then we'll have more to talk about.
'As per the American Heart Association, the beat of the Bee Gees song "Stayin' Alive" provides an ideal rhythm in terms of beats per minute to use for hands-only CPR. One can also hum Queen's "Another One Bites The Dust".' —Wikipedia
calgar
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
United States1277 Posts
January 25 2012 21:16 GMT
#36
+ Show Spoiler +
Alright yeah I meant hyper sorry I sound stupid

I agree with some of your points, but lets assume he doesn't move randomly like he said he might and takes the center. You say you are content to stop e5 if he plays e4, but can he not brute force it after preparing with d4 and f4? Here is a hypothetical move 4 setup.

White move 4

I'm thinking Nb3, Qd3, and f4 could all be possibilities. They may all be played and just transpose into each other. I don't really see much point in going more than 4 moves deep right now since there is so much possibility and all but what do you propose against some kind of setup like that?

I don't think he is worried about BxN either because I don't think they will be very easy targets to hit. The rooks won't be active for many moves and I don't see any other ways for the minor pieces or queen to pressure. Would you agree it is an unclear trade heading to the endgame since the bishop could make up for their weakness?


On January 26 2012 05:11 qrs wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 26 2012 02:54 calgar wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
Interesting. I'll throw out some random ideas here.

It looks like you've proposed a hypo-modern King's Indian development. This is going to allow white to set up shop and occupy the center with something like e4-d4 and c3 or f3. The KI plays for space on the kingside by advancing the f-pawn and gaining initiative while the center remains locked. In this case our king isn't on the kingside yet and the center remains open. To me this looks like it leaves us without a plan going into the middlegame. What is the plan to disrupt white's stronger center? I'm going to assume it will be stronger since all of our moves are allowing him to occupy it with pawns.

In response to blocking our dark square bishop, I don't think the knight blocking the fianchettoed bishop is an issue to be worried about since this happens in essentially every fianchetto opening. The pawn at e5 is well-placed and I feel that the control it asserts outweighs blocking the bishop since it is most likely to be temporary due to potential exchanges or advancing.

A thing to note, I'm assuming by ...Qh3 you mean Qh6 In regards to Qh6: The idea of attacking the knight is a good one. If white has played d4, though, he can immediately develop the bishop with tempo on the queen. Where does she go from there? g7 creates a battery but is essentially biting on rock since the queen will inevitably be attacking a protected piece. h5 and h4 seem misplaced and vulnerable to further harassment. Undeveloping back to f8 isn't attractive either. If Qh6 is immediately responded to by Bd2 then our tactic of attacking the knight loses its power. Along this note, would we really want to exchange bishop for knight? It doubles his pawns but if we can't take advantage of them by attacking them then we might regret it in the endgame if it becomes NvsB. He may fianchetto or move the knight to f4 also.

I do agree that c6 may not be the best place for the bishop. It's hard to tell on move 1 where it will end up but I think it is at least a possibility. I have a feeling b5 may end up being stronger since a4 will not be able to harass it as easily as a normal position.

I'm going to stand by 1... d5 as my vote for strongest first move. It is protected and right away stops e4. He has essentially given us white by playing a weak move so I don't think it makes sense to play hypomodern. Sure, it works, but in theory I think we would be better off seizing the initiative rather than playing hypomodern 1-move up.


On January 25 2012 15:54 qrs wrote:
On January 25 2012 12:46 calgar wrote:
The qrs opening. Hm.
+ Show Spoiler +
Nice to activate the bishop and aim at the king but I vote for direct control of the center first. If he is randomly moving then we can bring our nice friend Ed along with e5 and d5.

Allow me to present the calgar initial 6-move action plan.
[image loading]
Which will result in a basic setup like this.
[image loading]

This pretty much incorporates the qrs plan but I would just go with e5 or d5 first. Ng5 (lol) is met easily with Nf6. The light-squared bishop can also go to d7/b5. Anyways, in this case I say d5 because it activates the light-square bishop and rook. After the 6 move plan we can 0-0 after developing the queen to e7? perhaps or 0-0-0 after Re8 to connect our rooks on the back rank.
Nice of you to talk about a "qrs plan", but even I have to admit that one move is hardly a plan. However, in response to your post, I will present my own thoughts on the position, and my own five-or-six-move plan, which differs from yours.

First of all, some general thoughts on the starting position:
+ Show Spoiler [general thoughts] +

1) Both we and our opponent have to move the g-pawn, to activate the h-bishop. It doesn't have to be right away, but at some point we will almost certainly have to play g6 (g5 being ruled out for the moment by the Nh3). Thus it makes sense that the move ...g6 appears in both the calgar and the qrs opening plans.

2) After we do move the g-pawn, our dark-squared Bishop is instantly activated along the long diagonal. It will take us at least two extra moves to transfer it somewhere else, and for the moment, there's no compelling reason for us to expect that we will do that. Therefore, I think that if possible we should avoid limiting our own Bishop by blocking this diagonal.

2a) Specifically, this means avoiding the moves ...f6 and ...e5 (...Nf6 is not as bad because it's easier to move a Knight at will than to move pawns). Already this means that I take issue with the move ...e5 in the calgar plan.

3) Since we will have to move the g-pawn in any case (point 1), we open the avenue to develop our Queen to h3. This is an attractive square for a number of reasons. Several of them have to do with our opponent's opening choice, and I will elaborate on those below. At any rate, ...Qh3 is a move that we can play no matter what else we do (because we are definitely moving the g-pawn).


Secondly, some thoughts on the position after our opponent's randomly-selected and presumably suboptimal first move, which we ought to take advantage of if we can.
+ Show Spoiler [thoughts on 1. Nh3 (warning--long!)] +
1. We can expect that our opponent won't move the Knight again in the opening--and if he does, that's a victory for us. Also, the Knight is not especially well-defended: currently it's defended by a single pawn, which we'd be happy to pull to h3 (doubling/isolating two of Black's pawns). In any case, the pawn plans to move (to uncover the Bishop), as mentioned above. After the pawn moves, the Knight will be defended only by the Queen.

2. This suggests another component of the qrs plan: attack the Knight, via ...d6, ...Bd7. For this reason I take issue with the ...Bc6 component of the calgar plan: I think that we can take better advantage of White's first move by using our light-squared Bishop to take aim at the Knight.

3. In turn, intending to post the Bishop on d7 explains why I, at least initially, preferred ...d6 to ...d5: after our opponent moves his g-pawn (which he will surely do after we play ...Bd7, if not before) a pawn on d5 may become vulnerable to his Bishop. However, perhaps I'm being overcautious here. I'm willing to consider ...d5 over ...d6

4. Putting the Knight on h3 has weakened White's h-pawn. That pawn was already weak because there's no Rook on h1 in this game. Putting the Knight on h3 means that White can't defend the pawn by a) playing Nf3, b) playing h3, or c) playing Qh3.

5. Points 1 and 4 suggest the next component of the qrs plan, already alluded to above: ...Qh3. This move can accomplish a number of things (partly depending on what our opponent does with his future moves, of course)
  • Pin our opponents d-pawn.
  • Put pressure on our opponent's h3 Knight.
  • Pin our opponent's Knight to the h2 pawn, which is weak, as mentioned above.

6. ...Qh3 works in conjunction with ...Bd7 to pressure the Knight. I imagine that White will respond with something like g3 and Bg2 to defend it. At all events, though, this ties down both the Bishop and Queen to defending the Knight and forces White to make an extra move with his light-squared Bishop, while we are only making developing moves.

7. ...Nf6 is a slightly tricky one: like calgar, I would like to play it; on the other hand, there is the question of whether to play it in front of or behind the f-pawn. Also, on f6 it blocks our Bishop, which is something to keep in mind.

8. One of the reasons I'd like to put the Knight on f6 is to threaten ...Ng4, after which the Knight threatens the h-pawn, which, as mentioned above, is not so easy for White to defend. For this reason, my trigger for playing ...Ng4 is White's playing f4. That's a plausible move for White, especially after ...Qh3: it gains space on the board, opens an avenue for White's dark-squared Bishop to develop, and relieves our pin of the d-pawn. On the other hand, it makes g4 a safe square for our Knight. So as soon White plays f4, I'm ready to play ...Nf6.

9. At this point in the qrs opening plan, we already have developed our Queen, light-squared Bishop, and h-side Knight anyway, so we could consider ...0-0, as calgar suggests. Not bound to it, though.


So in short, my counter-plan for an opening set-up looks something like this.
Thanks for the thorough response!

By the way, "hypo" is actually the opposite of "hyper", which can be confusing. Not that it really matters--I knew what you meant.

OK, getting to the meat of your post. First of all, I'd like to note that it's hard to generalize about our next six moves without any reference to what our opponent plays, and it's starting to show in our discussion. You make some good points, and I can't really address them without getting more concrete than we've been, so I'm going to start giving some sample lines in the following response.

+ Show Spoiler [warning--even longer than my last!] +
1. Blocking the h8 Bishop:
A)
In response to blocking our dark square bishop, I don't think the knight blocking the fianchettoed bishop is an issue to be worried about since this happens in essentially every fianchetto opening.

I essentially agree with you on this point--after all, I agreed with you in wanting to play ...Nf6. I only said that it's something to keep in mind: there might be times when we want the Bishop unblocked (without needing an extra move to unblock it), so everything else being equal, it makes sense to play our other moves before ...Nf6, unless we have a reason to play it earlier.

For example, you suggest the possibility of White's playing d4 and Bd2, to threaten a Queen on h3. These two moves leave White's d-pawn temporarily undefended: an unblocked Bh8 would put a crimp in that plan. Here's a line to illustrate:
1. Nh3 d6 different move order, but part of the same opening plan that I outlined above
2. d4 as you suggested for White: controls the center, develops, etc.
2...Bd7 threatens to disrupt White's pawn structure with 3...BxN
3. g3 in response to the above threat
3...g6 threatening to win the Knight by the fork 4...Qh3+

Now, at this point, White might want to play 4. Bd2, preventing ...Qh3+ and developing a piece at the same time. However, because our Bishop threatens the pawn on d4, he cannot play this move. A Knight on f6 would deprive us of this tactical resource.

This certainly doesn't refute the idea of ...Nf6, of course, and as I said, I'd like to play that too. It's just an illustration of the sort of idea that makes me cautious about playing that move before we have to.

B)
The pawn at e5 is well-placed and I feel that the control it asserts outweighs blocking the bishop since it is most likely to be temporary due to potential exchanges or advancing.

Here I disagree with you. I'll grant the "well-placed" part except insofar as it blocks the Bishop, but I don't think that we can say that "it is most likely to be temporary due to potential exchanges or advancing". I think that's largely in the hands of our opponent. If he plays to prevent us from advancing or exchanging the e5-pawn--for instance by playing d3 and g3, I'm not at all sure that we have a good way to get the pawn off e5--and if it's going to sit there and block our Bishop all game (or until we spend several moves getting the Bishop to a worse diagonal than it currently occupies), I don't think we can call the e5 pawn well-placed at all.

2. ...Qh36
A thing to note, I'm assuming by ...Qh3 you mean Qh6 In regards to Qh6: The idea of attacking the knight is a good one. If white has played d4, though, he can immediately develop the bishop with tempo on the queen. Where does she go from there? ...

Say no more. The fault is mine for overgeneralizing here. I don't want to play ...Qh6 (yes, that's what I meant; thanks for catching that) in the situation you describe, where White has moved his d-pawn, but not his dark-squared Bishop, and with the Knight well-defended. In that case, I agree that ...Qh6 would be a bad move for the reason you show: it loses tempo. Here are the situations where I'd like to play it:

A) If White has not moved his d-pawn yet--in which case it pins the d-pawn, as I said. Here's a very basic line to illustrate that case: 1. Nh3 g6 2. g3 Qh3.

B) If we'd be doubly attacking the Knight by playing that move. Here's a line that shows what I mean: 1. Nh3 g6 2. e4 d6 3. d4 Bd7 4. g3? Qh6+ 5. Bd2 Qxh3.

Of course, that last line would never actually happen--because g3 would be a blunder. But White doesn't have too many good alternative 4th moves either: 4. Nc4 (besides spending a second move on the Knight) would still allow 4...Qh6, winning that weak h-pawn, and if White just ignores the threat to his Knight, then 4...BxN doubles/isolates his pawns, as mentioned. So what this line shows is that the threat of Qh6+ can be pretty strong in these lines--so strong, that White may very well think twice before moving his d-pawn in these situations. If White doesn't move his d-pawn right away, see A).

3. ...Bd7 to attack the Knight
Along this note, would we really want to exchange bishop for knight? It doubles his pawns but if we can't take advantage of them by attacking them then we might regret it in the endgame if it becomes NvsB. He may fianchetto or move the knight to f4 also.

Well this is an important point, since I've been basing a lot of my reasoning on the assumption that yes, we would. First of all, it not only doubles his pawns, but moves the g-pawn away from the center, and isolates both. That weakens them greatly, and I think it is a weakness that we could take advantage of at all times in the game (assuming that Ng5 doesn't just outright sac one for initiative, as he did in TL Chess Match 4). Among other things, we can pressure the h3 pawn with the several-times-aforementioned ...Qh6.

In any case, even if we decide that we don't want to make that trade, the combination of a Bishop on d7 and a Queen on h6--or the threat of a Queen on h6, still puts a lot of pressure on White. After all, he has to move that g-pawn at some point, or his Bishop is blocked in forever.

4. Whether to play ...d5 or d6
I'm going to stand by 1... d5 as my vote for strongest first move. It is protected and right away stops e4.

I've explained my reasoning for disagreeing with you on this one: it basically follows from our other disagreements:

A) I want to put our Bishop on d7, which means that e4 will be temporarily unprotected (if we haven't played ...Ng6, which I don't think should be a priority as it doesn't pressure White at all), and potentially subject to attack from White's Bh1. Here's a very basic line that illustrates that: 1. Nh3 d5 2. g3, and now we can no longer play ...Bd7 without taking an extra move to defend our d-pawn.

B) You want to stop e4; on the contrary, I'd be happy for White to play it--and then to stop e5, instead, leaving White to block his own Bishop. See point 1B), above.

5. Control of the center
It looks like you've proposed a hypo-modern King's Indian development. This is going to allow white to set up shop and occupy the center with something like e4-d4 and c3 or f3. The KI plays for space on the kingside by advancing the f-pawn and gaining initiative while the center remains locked. In this case our king isn't on the kingside yet and the center remains open. To me this looks like it leaves us without a plan going into the middlegame. What is the plan to disrupt white's stronger center? I'm going to assume it will be stronger since all of our moves are allowing him to occupy it with pawns.


I haven't addressed this yet, because I think it's a bit too early to talk about it. You're making the assumption that White has the time to set up a strong center while we ignore it, but I'm not sure that's the case. I've already given reasons why I think White should hesitate to play a quick d4, for instance, and for why e4 is better for us than for White, in my opinion, so, vaguely speaking, at least, I'm not envisioning White gaining control of the center here. If you want to talk about this point, give me a line where White takes control of the center as we pursue the plan I've been describing. Then we'll have more to talk about.

Badjas
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
Netherlands2038 Posts
January 25 2012 21:56 GMT
#37
This is going to be one neat thread
I need to beat my brother, badly. I'm down 2 games now... Let's brush up on some basic insights.
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qrs
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States3637 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-26 05:56:54
January 26 2012 05:25 GMT
#38
On January 26 2012 06:16 calgar wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
Alright yeah I meant hyper sorry I sound stupid

I agree with some of your points, but lets assume he doesn't move randomly like he said he might and takes the center. You say you are content to stop e5 if he plays e4, but can he not brute force it after preparing with d4 and f4? Here is a hypothetical move 4 setup.

White move 4

I'm thinking Nb3, Qd3, and f4 could all be possibilities. They may all be played and just transpose into each other. I don't really see much point in going more than 4 moves deep right now since there is so much possibility and all but what do you propose against some kind of setup like that?

I don't think he is worried about BxN either because I don't think they will be very easy targets to hit. The rooks won't be active for many moves and I don't see any other ways for the minor pieces or queen to pressure. Would you agree it is an unclear trade heading to the endgame since the bishop could make up for their weakness?


Show nested quote +
On January 26 2012 05:11 qrs wrote:
On January 26 2012 02:54 calgar wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
Interesting. I'll throw out some random ideas here.

It looks like you've proposed a hypo-modern King's Indian development. This is going to allow white to set up shop and occupy the center with something like e4-d4 and c3 or f3. The KI plays for space on the kingside by advancing the f-pawn and gaining initiative while the center remains locked. In this case our king isn't on the kingside yet and the center remains open. To me this looks like it leaves us without a plan going into the middlegame. What is the plan to disrupt white's stronger center? I'm going to assume it will be stronger since all of our moves are allowing him to occupy it with pawns.

In response to blocking our dark square bishop, I don't think the knight blocking the fianchettoed bishop is an issue to be worried about since this happens in essentially every fianchetto opening. The pawn at e5 is well-placed and I feel that the control it asserts outweighs blocking the bishop since it is most likely to be temporary due to potential exchanges or advancing.

A thing to note, I'm assuming by ...Qh3 you mean Qh6 In regards to Qh6: The idea of attacking the knight is a good one. If white has played d4, though, he can immediately develop the bishop with tempo on the queen. Where does she go from there? g7 creates a battery but is essentially biting on rock since the queen will inevitably be attacking a protected piece. h5 and h4 seem misplaced and vulnerable to further harassment. Undeveloping back to f8 isn't attractive either. If Qh6 is immediately responded to by Bd2 then our tactic of attacking the knight loses its power. Along this note, would we really want to exchange bishop for knight? It doubles his pawns but if we can't take advantage of them by attacking them then we might regret it in the endgame if it becomes NvsB. He may fianchetto or move the knight to f4 also.

I do agree that c6 may not be the best place for the bishop. It's hard to tell on move 1 where it will end up but I think it is at least a possibility. I have a feeling b5 may end up being stronger since a4 will not be able to harass it as easily as a normal position.

I'm going to stand by 1... d5 as my vote for strongest first move. It is protected and right away stops e4. He has essentially given us white by playing a weak move so I don't think it makes sense to play hypomodern. Sure, it works, but in theory I think we would be better off seizing the initiative rather than playing hypomodern 1-move up.


On January 25 2012 15:54 qrs wrote:
On January 25 2012 12:46 calgar wrote:
The qrs opening. Hm.
+ Show Spoiler +
Nice to activate the bishop and aim at the king but I vote for direct control of the center first. If he is randomly moving then we can bring our nice friend Ed along with e5 and d5.

Allow me to present the calgar initial 6-move action plan.
[image loading]
Which will result in a basic setup like this.
[image loading]

This pretty much incorporates the qrs plan but I would just go with e5 or d5 first. Ng5 (lol) is met easily with Nf6. The light-squared bishop can also go to d7/b5. Anyways, in this case I say d5 because it activates the light-square bishop and rook. After the 6 move plan we can 0-0 after developing the queen to e7? perhaps or 0-0-0 after Re8 to connect our rooks on the back rank.
Nice of you to talk about a "qrs plan", but even I have to admit that one move is hardly a plan. However, in response to your post, I will present my own thoughts on the position, and my own five-or-six-move plan, which differs from yours.

First of all, some general thoughts on the starting position:
+ Show Spoiler [general thoughts] +

1) Both we and our opponent have to move the g-pawn, to activate the h-bishop. It doesn't have to be right away, but at some point we will almost certainly have to play g6 (g5 being ruled out for the moment by the Nh3). Thus it makes sense that the move ...g6 appears in both the calgar and the qrs opening plans.

2) After we do move the g-pawn, our dark-squared Bishop is instantly activated along the long diagonal. It will take us at least two extra moves to transfer it somewhere else, and for the moment, there's no compelling reason for us to expect that we will do that. Therefore, I think that if possible we should avoid limiting our own Bishop by blocking this diagonal.

2a) Specifically, this means avoiding the moves ...f6 and ...e5 (...Nf6 is not as bad because it's easier to move a Knight at will than to move pawns). Already this means that I take issue with the move ...e5 in the calgar plan.

3) Since we will have to move the g-pawn in any case (point 1), we open the avenue to develop our Queen to h3. This is an attractive square for a number of reasons. Several of them have to do with our opponent's opening choice, and I will elaborate on those below. At any rate, ...Qh3 is a move that we can play no matter what else we do (because we are definitely moving the g-pawn).


Secondly, some thoughts on the position after our opponent's randomly-selected and presumably suboptimal first move, which we ought to take advantage of if we can.
+ Show Spoiler [thoughts on 1. Nh3 (warning--long!)] +
1. We can expect that our opponent won't move the Knight again in the opening--and if he does, that's a victory for us. Also, the Knight is not especially well-defended: currently it's defended by a single pawn, which we'd be happy to pull to h3 (doubling/isolating two of Black's pawns). In any case, the pawn plans to move (to uncover the Bishop), as mentioned above. After the pawn moves, the Knight will be defended only by the Queen.

2. This suggests another component of the qrs plan: attack the Knight, via ...d6, ...Bd7. For this reason I take issue with the ...Bc6 component of the calgar plan: I think that we can take better advantage of White's first move by using our light-squared Bishop to take aim at the Knight.

3. In turn, intending to post the Bishop on d7 explains why I, at least initially, preferred ...d6 to ...d5: after our opponent moves his g-pawn (which he will surely do after we play ...Bd7, if not before) a pawn on d5 may become vulnerable to his Bishop. However, perhaps I'm being overcautious here. I'm willing to consider ...d5 over ...d6

4. Putting the Knight on h3 has weakened White's h-pawn. That pawn was already weak because there's no Rook on h1 in this game. Putting the Knight on h3 means that White can't defend the pawn by a) playing Nf3, b) playing h3, or c) playing Qh3.

5. Points 1 and 4 suggest the next component of the qrs plan, already alluded to above: ...Qh3. This move can accomplish a number of things (partly depending on what our opponent does with his future moves, of course)
  • Pin our opponents d-pawn.
  • Put pressure on our opponent's h3 Knight.
  • Pin our opponent's Knight to the h2 pawn, which is weak, as mentioned above.

6. ...Qh3 works in conjunction with ...Bd7 to pressure the Knight. I imagine that White will respond with something like g3 and Bg2 to defend it. At all events, though, this ties down both the Bishop and Queen to defending the Knight and forces White to make an extra move with his light-squared Bishop, while we are only making developing moves.

7. ...Nf6 is a slightly tricky one: like calgar, I would like to play it; on the other hand, there is the question of whether to play it in front of or behind the f-pawn. Also, on f6 it blocks our Bishop, which is something to keep in mind.

8. One of the reasons I'd like to put the Knight on f6 is to threaten ...Ng4, after which the Knight threatens the h-pawn, which, as mentioned above, is not so easy for White to defend. For this reason, my trigger for playing ...Ng4 is White's playing f4. That's a plausible move for White, especially after ...Qh3: it gains space on the board, opens an avenue for White's dark-squared Bishop to develop, and relieves our pin of the d-pawn. On the other hand, it makes g4 a safe square for our Knight. So as soon White plays f4, I'm ready to play ...Nf6.

9. At this point in the qrs opening plan, we already have developed our Queen, light-squared Bishop, and h-side Knight anyway, so we could consider ...0-0, as calgar suggests. Not bound to it, though.


So in short, my counter-plan for an opening set-up looks something like this.
Thanks for the thorough response!

By the way, "hypo" is actually the opposite of "hyper", which can be confusing. Not that it really matters--I knew what you meant.

OK, getting to the meat of your post. First of all, I'd like to note that it's hard to generalize about our next six moves without any reference to what our opponent plays, and it's starting to show in our discussion. You make some good points, and I can't really address them without getting more concrete than we've been, so I'm going to start giving some sample lines in the following response.

+ Show Spoiler [warning--even longer than my last!] +
1. Blocking the h8 Bishop:
A)
In response to blocking our dark square bishop, I don't think the knight blocking the fianchettoed bishop is an issue to be worried about since this happens in essentially every fianchetto opening.

I essentially agree with you on this point--after all, I agreed with you in wanting to play ...Nf6. I only said that it's something to keep in mind: there might be times when we want the Bishop unblocked (without needing an extra move to unblock it), so everything else being equal, it makes sense to play our other moves before ...Nf6, unless we have a reason to play it earlier.

For example, you suggest the possibility of White's playing d4 and Bd2, to threaten a Queen on h3. These two moves leave White's d-pawn temporarily undefended: an unblocked Bh8 would put a crimp in that plan. Here's a line to illustrate:
1. Nh3 d6 different move order, but part of the same opening plan that I outlined above
2. d4 as you suggested for White: controls the center, develops, etc.
2...Bd7 threatens to disrupt White's pawn structure with 3...BxN
3. g3 in response to the above threat
3...g6 threatening to win the Knight by the fork 4...Qh3+

Now, at this point, White might want to play 4. Bd2, preventing ...Qh3+ and developing a piece at the same time. However, because our Bishop threatens the pawn on d4, he cannot play this move. A Knight on f6 would deprive us of this tactical resource.

This certainly doesn't refute the idea of ...Nf6, of course, and as I said, I'd like to play that too. It's just an illustration of the sort of idea that makes me cautious about playing that move before we have to.

B)
The pawn at e5 is well-placed and I feel that the control it asserts outweighs blocking the bishop since it is most likely to be temporary due to potential exchanges or advancing.

Here I disagree with you. I'll grant the "well-placed" part except insofar as it blocks the Bishop, but I don't think that we can say that "it is most likely to be temporary due to potential exchanges or advancing". I think that's largely in the hands of our opponent. If he plays to prevent us from advancing or exchanging the e5-pawn--for instance by playing d3 and g3, I'm not at all sure that we have a good way to get the pawn off e5--and if it's going to sit there and block our Bishop all game (or until we spend several moves getting the Bishop to a worse diagonal than it currently occupies), I don't think we can call the e5 pawn well-placed at all.

2. ...Qh36
A thing to note, I'm assuming by ...Qh3 you mean Qh6 In regards to Qh6: The idea of attacking the knight is a good one. If white has played d4, though, he can immediately develop the bishop with tempo on the queen. Where does she go from there? ...

Say no more. The fault is mine for overgeneralizing here. I don't want to play ...Qh6 (yes, that's what I meant; thanks for catching that) in the situation you describe, where White has moved his d-pawn, but not his dark-squared Bishop, and with the Knight well-defended. In that case, I agree that ...Qh6 would be a bad move for the reason you show: it loses tempo. Here are the situations where I'd like to play it:

A) If White has not moved his d-pawn yet--in which case it pins the d-pawn, as I said. Here's a very basic line to illustrate that case: 1. Nh3 g6 2. g3 Qh3.

B) If we'd be doubly attacking the Knight by playing that move. Here's a line that shows what I mean: 1. Nh3 g6 2. e4 d6 3. d4 Bd7 4. g3? Qh6+ 5. Bd2 Qxh3.

Of course, that last line would never actually happen--because g3 would be a blunder. But White doesn't have too many good alternative 4th moves either: 4. Nc4 (besides spending a second move on the Knight) would still allow 4...Qh6, winning that weak h-pawn, and if White just ignores the threat to his Knight, then 4...BxN doubles/isolates his pawns, as mentioned. So what this line shows is that the threat of Qh6+ can be pretty strong in these lines--so strong, that White may very well think twice before moving his d-pawn in these situations. If White doesn't move his d-pawn right away, see A).

3. ...Bd7 to attack the Knight
Along this note, would we really want to exchange bishop for knight? It doubles his pawns but if we can't take advantage of them by attacking them then we might regret it in the endgame if it becomes NvsB. He may fianchetto or move the knight to f4 also.

Well this is an important point, since I've been basing a lot of my reasoning on the assumption that yes, we would. First of all, it not only doubles his pawns, but moves the g-pawn away from the center, and isolates both. That weakens them greatly, and I think it is a weakness that we could take advantage of at all times in the game (assuming that Ng5 doesn't just outright sac one for initiative, as he did in TL Chess Match 4). Among other things, we can pressure the h3 pawn with the several-times-aforementioned ...Qh6.

In any case, even if we decide that we don't want to make that trade, the combination of a Bishop on d7 and a Queen on h6--or the threat of a Queen on h6, still puts a lot of pressure on White. After all, he has to move that g-pawn at some point, or his Bishop is blocked in forever.

4. Whether to play ...d5 or d6
I'm going to stand by 1... d5 as my vote for strongest first move. It is protected and right away stops e4.

I've explained my reasoning for disagreeing with you on this one: it basically follows from our other disagreements:

A) I want to put our Bishop on d7, which means that e4 will be temporarily unprotected (if we haven't played ...Ng6, which I don't think should be a priority as it doesn't pressure White at all), and potentially subject to attack from White's Bh1. Here's a very basic line that illustrates that: 1. Nh3 d5 2. g3, and now we can no longer play ...Bd7 without taking an extra move to defend our d-pawn.

B) You want to stop e4; on the contrary, I'd be happy for White to play it--and then to stop e5, instead, leaving White to block his own Bishop. See point 1B), above.

5. Control of the center
It looks like you've proposed a hypo-modern King's Indian development. This is going to allow white to set up shop and occupy the center with something like e4-d4 and c3 or f3. The KI plays for space on the kingside by advancing the f-pawn and gaining initiative while the center remains locked. In this case our king isn't on the kingside yet and the center remains open. To me this looks like it leaves us without a plan going into the middlegame. What is the plan to disrupt white's stronger center? I'm going to assume it will be stronger since all of our moves are allowing him to occupy it with pawns.


I haven't addressed this yet, because I think it's a bit too early to talk about it. You're making the assumption that White has the time to set up a strong center while we ignore it, but I'm not sure that's the case. I've already given reasons why I think White should hesitate to play a quick d4, for instance, and for why e4 is better for us than for White, in my opinion, so, vaguely speaking, at least, I'm not envisioning White gaining control of the center here. If you want to talk about this point, give me a line where White takes control of the center as we pursue the plan I've been describing. Then we'll have more to talk about.

Hmm, I played around with your line, using the follow-up moves that you gave for White, and I see your point. White does build up a rather strong position if we do nothing to challenge him.

I have two thoughts on the matter.
+ Show Spoiler [1)] +
Even though ...g6 and ...d6 may seem like passive moves, they do give us the support we need to challenge White's center, by playing e5 and f5. Here's a continuation of your line where we do just that. From there we can play ...Re1 and ...0-0-0. It looks to me like we're doing OK there: we're going toe-to-toe with White in the center, while continuing to maintain some pressure on that misplaced Nh3.


+ Show Spoiler [2)] +
This is maybe more fundamental: the biggest disagreement we have seems to be over whether or not it's good for us to trade Bishop for Knight. A lot of my reasoning has been based on the assumption that it is. If we assume that, it changes everything, of course: in that case, the continuation of your line would probably look more like this: we play the exchange immediately, conceding White the Bishop pair and a stronger hand in the center in exchange for disrupting his pawn structure.

Now, you are not so sure that the exchange is good for us, and you may be right. I'm a bit biased on this sort of question: my favorite book on chess is by Philidor. So, while conceding that your viewpoint is valid, I'll just sketch out the reasons why I like the exchange, even though it does come with some disadvantages.

1) Most advantages in chess are dynamic. The pieces move. Knights are good in some situations, Bishops are good in some situations, and if we don't like the pieces that we have in the situation we're in, we can always try maneuvering to exchange them. In other words, I don't know what will happen if we give White a Bishop to our Knight, and a little more central control, but I have confidence that if we play carefully, we can neutralize whatever he's able to do with that. Pawns are much more static. Changes to the pawn structure persist throughout the game. If we play carefully until we reach the endgame, those doubled pawns ought still to be there for us to cash in on.

2) Even in the middlegame, I think that these doubled pawns help us.
a) Since they're doubled away from the center, they weaken that center which White is trying to build up in your line. Without the support of a g-pawn, the f-pawn is relatively weak.
b) After the trade, White's h-side is blown open. Whereas we still have the flexibility to castle on either side, White can't even think about castling h-side. Knowing this so early in the game is an advantage for us, I think.


By the way, I've been linking to PGN viewers rather than animated GIFs--I find it easier to go through lines that way. You can get the link to the PGN viewer for a given line by clicking the "Chessboard Editor in New Window" button after you've entered a line on Apronus.
'As per the American Heart Association, the beat of the Bee Gees song "Stayin' Alive" provides an ideal rhythm in terms of beats per minute to use for hands-only CPR. One can also hum Queen's "Another One Bites The Dust".' —Wikipedia
mastergriggy
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States1312 Posts
January 26 2012 05:46 GMT
#39
This looks exciting :D sign me up!
Write your own song!
Mash2
Profile Joined February 2011
United States132 Posts
January 26 2012 14:55 GMT
#40
I'm voting f6 just go get another option out there.

+ Show Spoiler +
Pros: With the intention of moving our light squared bishop to g6 or h5 in order to apply a bit of pressure on those pawns covering the rooks, and pin one of them down for now. This could be done before or after g5 - probably after is best.

Cons: It is going to temporarily keep our dark squared bishop pinned in until we move that pawn on the f file futher along. It could also give us an awkward first move for that knight, but this is 360... so I'm not really sure what an awkward move for the knight at this stage in the game is.
"Quite often the flood of history is undammed or diverted by the character and actions of one man." - Pat Frank, "Alas, Babylon"
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