On November 30 2011 18:16 bikefrog wrote: Leenock will prove you wrong
He's one of a thousand... And it happens that some come fast and go early... We'll see what he'll do and we're looking forward to...
As for now he's awesome!
The mindset is that what we need... As soon as the mindset is there, we need time ti practice... The rest comes along if the mindset and the time are present...
I for myself am able to ladder around 6-8h on a free day... Mostly on the weekend, but there are so many things to do...
So usually i go for 10h per week laddering... It's not much and I hope I can go up later, because I think practice is one of the most important things...
It is much harder to kick a football into a 1x1 m goal, wearing clown shoes. However, I see football being played with big goals and football shoes with spikes.
Skill is lacking, but it still is a game many people enjoy watching. This harder/better thing is getting old.
On November 30 2011 14:52 jarf1337 wrote: I watched flash vs jahoon(sp?) live the other evening. It's the first time I've ever watched live BW and it felt really simlar to SC2. Flash turtled up as terrans do, the other guy applied some pressure that failed to break him and flash rolled him over with tons of tanks. I think all of this arguing is silly, since they both provide good entertainment for RTS fans.
Hmmm, I've mentioned quite a few times that Flash's play creates SC2 like games, that's just his play style though and no-one else can play like him, Fantasy is the second best Terran and is on the complete opposite end of the spectrum.
The reason Flash does this is that he has the highest defense rating of any progamer, his massive win-rate doesn't come from winning, they come from him never losing. Figuratively. That's just his style, anyone who tries to copy him ends up just dying. I'd say he does this because he hasn't developed his multitask as well as other progamers, and has to focus on less developed aspects of the game (like 200/200 battles).
Flash would be even more deadly in SC2, it completely caters to his turtle into single knock-out punch style.
On November 30 2011 18:57 Jiddra wrote: It is much harder to kick a football into a 1x1 m goal, wearing clown shoes. However, I see football being played with big goals and football shoes with spikes.
Skill is lacking, but it still is a game many people enjoy watching. This harder/better thing is getting old.
edit: soccer.
Strawman fallacy, what if the goals didn't have a height limit and you could use your hands?
Soccer has a higher skill ceiling because you can't use your hands and the goals are tiny in comparison, giving it much more depth and skill than other football games like Rugby/Gridiron/Aussie Rules. In essence, Soccer requires the highest mechanical skill of any football-type game, and thus it produces legends like Ronaldinho known for their incredible "mechanical skill". This never stopped strategy from being crucial to the game, how many times does Real Madrid win Champions League? Why are the English Premier League teams win time and time again even when they don't have depth of Barca.
Soccer players have to "micro" the ball, where as other football games you just have to be strong and tackle them. Soccer is both harder and more popular than other football games. "Oh but X Football Game requires less mechanical skill means more strategy right?" No... just no.
What about Basketball vs Handball? The hoops in Basketball are TINY! And shooting 3 pointers requires tonnes of practice. You also have an APM sink (dribbling). Which game is more popular? What about SLAMBALL even, oh now anyone can dunk a ball from anywhere! I still don't see it taking over basketball. Right now, seeing SC2 take over BW to me is like seeing the head of NBA transitioning Basketball to Slamball.
Even the writer of the article thought that Alicia would be the next big thing, and he was wrong about that (at least for the moment). Sensational players that aren't from a BW background gaining great fame and success over a short period of time doesn't tell anyone anything. Hell Inca got into the GSL finals one time after defeating Nada, but that one singular event doesn't mean anything if Inca can not consistently put forth the results, and the same goes for any player. Are BW and SC2 different games? Yes, absolutely they are, but to the core, they demand the same things from a player, whether it be macro, micro, multitasking, game sense, whatever. Precisely because BW has a difficult UI, the things that top BW players (TBLS for example) can accomplish is nothing short of amazing, especially considering how they can consistently put forth incredible results and gameplay. I don't see how BW pros won't dominate or at least be as successful as most SC2 pros should they switch to a game with easier UI and gameplay aspects.
On November 30 2011 14:52 jarf1337 wrote: I watched flash vs jahoon(sp?) live the other evening. It's the first time I've ever watched live BW and it felt really simlar to SC2. Flash turtled up as terrans do, the other guy applied some pressure that failed to break him and flash rolled him over with tons of tanks. I think all of this arguing is silly, since they both provide good entertainment for RTS fans.
Hmmm, I've mentioned quite a few times that Flash's play creates SC2 like games, that's just his play style though and no-one else can play like him, Fantasy is the second best Terran and is on the complete opposite end of the spectrum.
The reason Flash does this is that he has the highest defense rating of any progamer, his massive win-rate doesn't come from winning, they come from him never losing. Figuratively. That's just his style, anyone who tries to copy him ends up just dying. I'd say he does this because he hasn't developed his multitask as well as other progamers, and has to focus on less developed aspects of the game (like 200/200 battles).
Flash would be even more deadly in SC2, it completely caters to his turtle into single knock-out punch style.
On November 30 2011 18:57 Jiddra wrote: It is much harder to kick a football into a 1x1 m goal, wearing clown shoes. However, I see football being played with big goals and football shoes with spikes.
Skill is lacking, but it still is a game many people enjoy watching. This harder/better thing is getting old.
edit: soccer.
Strawman fallacy, what if the goals didn't have a height limit and you could use your hands?
Soccer has a higher skill ceiling because you can't use your hands and the goals are tiny in comparison, giving it much more depth and skill than other football games like Rugby/Gridiron/Aussie Rules. In essence, Soccer requires the highest mechanical skill of any football-type game, and thus it produces legends like Ronaldinho known for their incredible "mechanical skill". This never stopped strategy from being crucial to the game, how many times does Real Madrid win Champions League? Why are the English Premier League teams win time and time again even when they don't have depth of Barca.
Soccer players have to "micro" the ball, where as other football games you just have to be strong and tackle them. Soccer is both harder and more popular than other football games. "Oh but X Football Game requires less mechanical skill means more strategy right?" No... just no.
What about Basketball vs Handball? The hoops in Basketball are TINY! And shooting 3 pointers requires tonnes of practice. You also have an APM sink (dribbling). Which game is more popular? What about SLAMBALL even, oh now anyone can dunk a ball from anywhere! I still don't see it taking over basketball. Right now, seeing SC2 take over BW to me is like seeing the head of NBA transitioning Basketball to Slamball.
Stick to the argument.
I think on the subject of flash playing really defensively , when I remembered these kid's debut against boxer and bisu people were crying out blood because not only was he making proxy racks in the middle of map of every game , he was really aggressive back than . Probably he was insecure in playing really defensively , however that change when we see the final current form of flash switching between aggressive play and defensive play depending on his mind set of that day .
Games like this shows how complicated flash is ,looking at the game these game of Best v Flash , he isn't your turtle terran when he played TvP in this game , Flash played as if it's TvT , so much for Best being the macro player he is , flash just punished every opening he can get , if infernal thought what flash did was actually quite embarrassing , wait till you watch these video . Overall I think flash is really complicated and that kids have millions of strategy and play through running through his mind on a single game . He is the wonder kid of kt definitely and has earned it with accomplishment of winning many msl and osl .
On November 30 2011 12:19 Tektos wrote: All in all SC2 is still a relatively new game so the strategies have not had time to really show their true potential, people are still improving their game at a faster rate by working on the mechanics side of things. However, I believe in the future SC2 will show leaps and bounds in improvement on the strategy and tactics side of thing as players will not be held back by the difficulty of getting the mechanics perfected.
There's a lot of stupid stuff said in this thread but this particularly stands out because you must be plain delusional and pre-biased to defend SC2...this line of thought is just objectively wrong. You have them both completely the wrong way around. Perfect mechanics or close enough to perfect doesn't open a wider range of strategies it closes them down to the most optimal ones...
On November 30 2011 12:19 Tektos wrote: The idea that because broodwar was harder then hence it was a better and more competitive game is ridiculous.
The lack of smartcasting and MBS certainly gave BW more of a wow-factor when you saw someone like Jangbi dropping a dozen storms to decimate a tank line or when you saw BeSt macroing off of 25 gateways without missing a single round.
Listening to the casters freak out when a protoss player drops a dozen force fields is an example of SC2 being a farce compared to BW. Both SC2 and BW are advertised as esports and watching incredible displays of skill is a big part of any sport. SC2 fans care about exciting and awe-inspiring displays of skill just as much as BW fans do, the only difference is that their standards are much lower because they've never really taken the time and effort to appreciate the level at which professional BW is played (obviously I'm only talking about the people who think SC2 is the greatest thing ever since sliced bread and that BW is just that ugly old game where people compete to see who can click faster, not talking about the people who enjoy both games).
Starcraft is at the highest level a competition between two people. The "difficulty" of a game in no way comes down to how unintelligent the user interface is, it comes down to how good is your opponent.
And the competition in professional BW also revolves around how good one player is compared to his opponents. The lack of simplified mechanics simply gave the game a higher skill ceiling. Tell me, do you think auto-aim should be included in competitive first person shooters?
Chess, in essence is a game purely of strategy. Almost everyone knows the movements of the pieces and how they interact yet you will NEVER beat a professional chess player because they're strategically miles and miles ahead of you.
SC2 is in no way analogous to chess, if that's what you're trying to get at.
My personal opinion is that the difficulty of Broodwar hindered the strategical progression of the game. There was always going to be someone who beat you simply because their mechanics were miles ahead of yours, regardless of how well you think strategically.
A completely irrelevant point because you'll never find someone who is mechanically miles ahead of you but somehow worse than you strategically. One of the biggest fallacies in these mechanics vs. strategy arguments is this idea that one can somehow develop without the other. It's self-delusional nonsense that people use to feel better about themselves after some gosu Korean trounces them. In any circumstance where one player is mechanically miles ahead of another player, that same player is also inevitably going to have a better understanding of the game's strategic/tactical possibilities. Moreover, mechanics and strategy are not as clearly divided as most people seem to think. For example, Jaedong is known for his godly muta micro and people often make the mistake of seeing this as just merely evidence of his excellent mechanics (because micro is seen as something that is a part of mechanics), but the real reason why JD is so fucking good with mutas is because he has a tremendous amount of understanding and experience that allows him to know exactly when and where to attack, how to attack, when to pull back etc.
It's not a coincidence that Flash and JD not only have some of the best mechanics but also the best game sense. Even in SC2, MVP has some of the best mechanics and is also strategically one of the strongest players. All this tripe about the difficult mechanics in BW stifling people's ability to showcase their great strategic understanding is just self-delusional nonsense.
Don't confuse what I'm saying though, I am not at all saying Broodwar is strategically insignificant just that as a whole strategy in SC2 will develop faster in 1 year than strategy in Broodwar will in that same period of time.
This is in no way is evidence that harder mechanics somehow impeded the strategic growth of BW. Sure, it's probably true that SC2 has developed more in one year since its release compared to BW when it was released, but this is due to factors that have absolutely nothing to do with the challenging mechanics of BW, like the fact that SC2, unlike BW, had a huge competitive scene right from the beta.
Starcraft 2 has a much lower entry point in terms of mechanics, meaning that in a competition between two players the game comes down more to the tactics and strategy than "who can crank out the mechanics better". Yes, there will always be players who straight up macro better than you. IdrA will always have better macro than you and this will give him a bit of an advantage, but if you have enough macro to keep in the same ballpark with him then the game comes down to strategy and tactics instead.
And it's the same in BW, not sure what your point is.
meaning that in a competition between two players the game comes down more to the tactics and strategy than "who can crank out the mechanics better"
I personally enjoy the mind games behind the game, rather than watching who is more practiced in selecting buildings and pressing a button to build units.
Statements like these prove that you're completely ignorant about BW.
All in all SC2 is still a relatively new game so the strategies have not had time to really show their true potential, people are still improving their game at a faster rate by working on the mechanics side of things. However, I believe in the future SC2 will show leaps and bounds in improvement on the strategy and tactics side of thing as players will not be held back by the difficulty of getting the mechanics perfected.
Funny, the "difficulty of getting the mechanics perfected" didn't stop BW from showing leaps and bounds in improvement on the strategy and tactics side of things over the years.
Queue hate from BW enthusiasts dismissing everything I've said as dumb, ignorant and naive.
Sorry, but you are ignorant and misguided in this issue.
Good read. Thanks for the time you put into it. It certainly is how I see it.
Hm. People talk about E-Sports this, E-Sport that. Professionalism yadayada. Fair enough. But in the end it doesn't matter that much. If you're passionate about your game wether it be Starcraft2, Brood War, WoW, Call of Duty...the most important aspect is the fun aspect. And this is something everyone has to decide on for themselves.
That's why calling it a farce will lead, as we can see here, to some strong reactions. Rightfully so! Some enjoy the game for what it is for them and some don't. More competition for the game is always good. Only time will tell. I'm of the strong opinion that BW pros can and will change the game. But everyone here, can only wait and see.
I believe that some of us secretly hope for the game level to rise, because it has not given us the same excitement Brood War did so far...
On November 30 2011 14:52 jarf1337 wrote: I watched flash vs jahoon(sp?) live the other evening. It's the first time I've ever watched live BW and it felt really simlar to SC2. Flash turtled up as terrans do, the other guy applied some pressure that failed to break him and flash rolled him over with tons of tanks. I think all of this arguing is silly, since they both provide good entertainment for RTS fans.
Really not a good example my friend. Did you participate in the LR thread? I gave plenty of reasons why that game wasn't very good as did many others.
I do agree with you on the fact that both entertain me as well, but that game you wrote about wasn't very fun to watch. In fact, it was flat out painful.
It wasn't painful to people who have played Terran and understand how difficult the things Flash was doing were.
Jaehoon didn't do shit the entire game man, and Flash walked all over him. Most of Jaehoon's units were on hold position the vast majority of the time. Highlights for Jaehoon reaver scored two tank kills before dying and one storm hit a cluster of tanks, but didn't kill them.
What Flash did that game was nothing special for him. Jaehoon was mystified and kept sending small groups of goons and lots to their death, or just didn't move them at all and let them die on hold command.
I repeat nothing special about that game. Jaehoon never applied pressure. Expo like mad. Flash and him cap. Flash wins upgrade war moves out and just steamrolls Hoon while a pack of vultures kill one expo at a time regardless of the cannons. Hoon never protected shit.
If you want to bring this topic up again, please do so in the LR thread?
With that said it was a bad game. Out of all the games last night I don't know why anyone chose to bring that one up. Oh wait because he said it was one of the first BW games he watched and said he thought it was nothing special and he was right (in terms of what actually happened; not the skill level it takes). Every other game was more entertaining last night.
That game was terrible and it just showed why Jaehoon is trash who gets lucky by doing dumb cheeky shit.
Yea you don't know what the fuck you're talking about. Watch some of Jaehoon's games from last Proleague then you can have an opinion. Until then don't bother commenting on Jaehoon's play. He didn't get 30 wins last year from doing "cheeky shit".
On November 30 2011 04:28 Archvil3 wrote: I remember how provocing this article was when it first came out. Instead of just presenting facts mr Intrique and co. did everything they could to insult the proplayers and the SC2 fans.
That being said it was absolutely spot on. Many of the names we followed in 2010 and early 2011 are not to be seen anymore and I think it is quite clear by now that they were pretty bad. I don't think that a BW invasion would absolutely demolish every single top player in SC2 though. The current top is pretty good and seems for the most part pretty solid so the current top is going to be able to compete. Anyone who is not a top top name already will get demolished and will forever be forgotten though and I think there is no doubt that in a year from now the top20 players of the world will consist of at least 10-15 players that is currently playing broodwar.
I'd rather say, "no doubt that 1year from now most BW pros will still play BW", because they make more money of it and there is no reason to switch right now.
Also judging from how many titles the former superstars Nada, Boxer and JulyZerg won, I'd say it will be pretty tough to become top10, even for a player like Bisu.
boxer, nada, and julyzerg when they came to sc2 were way past their prime and would get absolutely slaughtered by the current top guys in bw. not even close. they would get folded like a lawnchair
well, the question is, why aren't they not in their prime anymore?
-) Because the game has developed? So how would this be a less radical change then switching a game? -) Because they are too old? NaDa is 27, July 24. I wouldn't call that too old! (even Boxer is only 31, which is still a good age in a lot of sports) -) Because they are burned out? Probably not. They could do something else than gaming then...
So why should Flash keep his prime when/if he switched over? (not saying he doesn't... but repeat that question for every SC:BW top player and you'll see a decent amount of people "being out of their prime")
Oh that's a simple enough question to anser... Because if he switches right now, Flash would carry with him to SC2, the same mechanics, hard work and mental strength that took him to new heights in the most difficult-to-master RTS game of all times.
you mean like when bisu redefined ZvP and savior kept on crushing every Protoss? wait a minute... Could happen to Flash as well... or not...
Well, given that MVP is dominating the tournaments pretty consistently, it's pretty apparent there are no Bisus playing SC2 right now... or are you suggesting that a player of Bisu's caliber is found anywhere among B-teamers, has-beens and BW-rejects?? -- which is the main demographic of current SC2 players.
On May 12 2011 13:52 Zrana wrote: You didn't mention NaDa or July as much as you should have. Both amazing at sc1 (capable of beating flash/JD at times iirc but not rocking SC2 as hard as you say they should)
Different game, different skills. Mechanics mean slightly less, strategy slightly more. Sure some is transferable, but this really seems like more of the same tired old BW was better whine.
You say that there are hundreds of players who could come in and dominate SC2 at any moment. Well why haven't they? There's nothing to stop them taking the GSL, TSL and NASL prize pools. More than enough incentive. The answer is that SC2 is still being figured out, and it takes a different sort of player to excel at a young game than a game where the rules have already been written.
Also you imply that SC2 is invalid as a sport until we have some godllike figure like Flash. Was football invalid before Beckham, Formula 1 before Schumacher?
No, they were still fun to watch. (well i dont like football but lots do)
If you read his post he mentioned that the reason why BW pros haven't switched is because of how much they are already making from BW.
It doesn't make any sense for them to yet, the reason why bottom tier players like MVP and MC switched is because they had no choice.
For people who hate sc2 you guys sure do love to talk about it i think this thread really shows how pathetic people are to make others believe there own opinion i dont think any of the bw players in here actually listens to any of the sc2 players opinion they just want to be right because they think about these things all the time
On November 30 2011 04:28 Archvil3 wrote: I remember how provocing this article was when it first came out. Instead of just presenting facts mr Intrique and co. did everything they could to insult the proplayers and the SC2 fans.
That being said it was absolutely spot on. Many of the names we followed in 2010 and early 2011 are not to be seen anymore and I think it is quite clear by now that they were pretty bad. I don't think that a BW invasion would absolutely demolish every single top player in SC2 though. The current top is pretty good and seems for the most part pretty solid so the current top is going to be able to compete. Anyone who is not a top top name already will get demolished and will forever be forgotten though and I think there is no doubt that in a year from now the top20 players of the world will consist of at least 10-15 players that is currently playing broodwar.
I'd rather say, "no doubt that 1year from now most BW pros will still play BW", because they make more money of it and there is no reason to switch right now.
Also judging from how many titles the former superstars Nada, Boxer and JulyZerg won, I'd say it will be pretty tough to become top10, even for a player like Bisu.
boxer, nada, and julyzerg when they came to sc2 were way past their prime and would get absolutely slaughtered by the current top guys in bw. not even close. they would get folded like a lawnchair
well, the question is, why aren't they not in their prime anymore?
-) Because the game has developed? So how would this be a less radical change then switching a game? -) Because they are too old? NaDa is 27, July 24. I wouldn't call that too old! (even Boxer is only 31, which is still a good age in a lot of sports) -) Because they are burned out? Probably not. They could do something else than gaming then...
So why should Flash keep his prime when/if he switched over? (not saying he doesn't... but repeat that question for every SC:BW top player and you'll see a decent amount of people "being out of their prime")
Oh that's a simple enough question to anser... Because if he switches right now, Flash would carry with him to SC2, the same mechanics, hard work and mental strength that took him to new heights in the most difficult-to-master RTS game of all times.
you mean like when bisu redefined ZvP and savior kept on crushing every Protoss? wait a minute... Could happen to Flash as well... or not...
Well, given that MVP is dominating the tournaments pretty consistently, it's pretty apparent there are no Bisus playing SC2 right now... or are you suggesting that a player of Bisu's caliber is found anywhere among B-teamers, has-beens and BW-rejects?? -- which is the main demographic of current SC2 players.
My point was that if the game changes (through the bisu build in my example), former superstars (like Savior in my example) may start to slump. And a SC:BW metagame change is by far not as big as the change from one RTS game to a different RTS game.
And yes, if you want to put it this way... MVP is some kind of Bisu right now in SC2. He is better than most other players that play SC2 and everything else about "player X would be better" are just dumb theories... I'd go that far that in this case we would have to write an article about "The whale in the room: Why Michael Jordan would beat everyone if he played Broodwar" (BUT HE DOESN'T!)
On November 30 2011 04:28 Archvil3 wrote: I remember how provocing this article was when it first came out. Instead of just presenting facts mr Intrique and co. did everything they could to insult the proplayers and the SC2 fans.
That being said it was absolutely spot on. Many of the names we followed in 2010 and early 2011 are not to be seen anymore and I think it is quite clear by now that they were pretty bad. I don't think that a BW invasion would absolutely demolish every single top player in SC2 though. The current top is pretty good and seems for the most part pretty solid so the current top is going to be able to compete. Anyone who is not a top top name already will get demolished and will forever be forgotten though and I think there is no doubt that in a year from now the top20 players of the world will consist of at least 10-15 players that is currently playing broodwar.
I'd rather say, "no doubt that 1year from now most BW pros will still play BW", because they make more money of it and there is no reason to switch right now.
Also judging from how many titles the former superstars Nada, Boxer and JulyZerg won, I'd say it will be pretty tough to become top10, even for a player like Bisu.
boxer, nada, and julyzerg when they came to sc2 were way past their prime and would get absolutely slaughtered by the current top guys in bw. not even close. they would get folded like a lawnchair
well, the question is, why aren't they not in their prime anymore?
-) Because the game has developed? So how would this be a less radical change then switching a game? -) Because they are too old? NaDa is 27, July 24. I wouldn't call that too old! (even Boxer is only 31, which is still a good age in a lot of sports) -) Because they are burned out? Probably not. They could do something else than gaming then...
So why should Flash keep his prime when/if he switched over? (not saying he doesn't... but repeat that question for every SC:BW top player and you'll see a decent amount of people "being out of their prime")
Oh that's a simple enough question to anser... Because if he switches right now, Flash would carry with him to SC2, the same mechanics, hard work and mental strength that took him to new heights in the most difficult-to-master RTS game of all times.
you mean like when bisu redefined ZvP and savior kept on crushing every Protoss? wait a minute... Could happen to Flash as well... or not...
Well, given that MVP is dominating the tournaments pretty consistently, it's pretty apparent there are no Bisus playing SC2 right now... or are you suggesting that a player of Bisu's caliber is found anywhere among B-teamers, has-beens and BW-rejects?? -- which is the main demographic of current SC2 players.
My point was that if the game changes (through the bisu build in my example), former superstars (like Savior in my example) may start to slump. And a SC:BW metagame change is by far not as big as the change from one RTS game to a different RTS game.
And yes, if you want to put it this way... MVP is some kind of Bisu right now in SC2. He is better than most other players that play SC2 and everything else about "player X would be better" are just dumb theories... I'd go that far that in this case we would have to write an article about "The whale in the room: Why Michael Jordan would beat everyone if he played Broodwar" (BUT HE DOESN'T!)
Well that's another strawman, but I'm sure he'd be really good at Starcraft although the skills don't transfer nearly as much. And MVP can't perfectly control units in 5 different places at once, which is why the only person who can do the Bisu build is Bisu, that's what makes him special. There was nothing particularly special about MVP in BW and neither is he in SC2, he's just very good but that is all he will ever be (just the best player in SC2), he won't bring magic into the game with far reaching concepts like the top players in BW. Nestea, Leenock and Stephano seem like notable exceptions, but they are still nothing in comparison, and none have won 3 GSLs. Jaedong won an OSL on his first try and has won 5 starleagues, noting that there are much much less BW starleague finals in a year than GSL. In 2010 Flash won every starleague except 1 (where he got silver), if you compare the same time-frame Nestea would have to win every GSL over a year with 2 silvers.
On November 30 2011 23:33 Bd.Snake wrote: For people who hate sc2 you guys sure do love to talk about it i think this thread really shows how pathetic people are to make others believe there own opinion i dont think any of the bw players in here actually listens to any of the sc2 players opinion they just want to be right because they think about these things all the time
Can you actually try and read before you post like this?
No one hates SC2. They just prefer BW. I've yet to see a SC2 pro post explain exactly how SC2 actually allows for better strategy/micro. Just because BW has higher mechanic requirements does not mean it has less strategy. There are a ton of units that have more micro potential and strategic options in BW than there are in SC2. See reaver vs colossi, lurker vs baneling, etc, etc.
Honestly I think people shouting about SC2 should not only watch BW but play some of it, then they would realize the massive difference in style and gameplay. Again, no one is hates SC2, they just think it needs some work before it will be BW level.
edit: Rereaing the OP, the message that the OP was sending is that the current SC2 players were all low tier BW players and that there were much more talented players that hadn't switched over, never that SC2 was a shitty game or anything like that...
Okay so maybe there's a difference in work ethic and dedication to practice time, but BW has been finalized; it's the finished polished version. SC2 on the other hand is a very new game in comparison and is still in stages of development, I don't see why you would need to practice 100 games a day as you would in BW. The practice you make would only have to be adjusted to the ever changing game, and you would have to start anew, the skill you gained from the hours of practice may have just been nullified due to a patch, or units being taken out as they are in HOTS. Idk... I don't doubt that a harder practice regime would get players further, but players also need time to think about their strategy or to create new ones. Just a thought.
On December 01 2011 07:36 linelite wrote: Okay so maybe there's a difference in work ethic and dedication to practice time, but BW has been finalized; it's the finished polished version. SC2 on the other hand is a very new game in comparison and is still in stages of development, I don't see why you would need to practice 100 games a day as you would in BW. The practice you make would only have to be adjusted to the ever changing game, and you would have to start anew, the skill you gained from the hours of practice may have just been nullified due to a patch, or units being taken out as they are in HOTS. Idk... I don't doubt that a harder practice regime would get players further, but players also need time to think about their strategy or to create new ones. Just a thought.
Thinking about strategies is part of training. Flash used to spend training time thinking about late game because it was "more efficient" than playing.
On November 30 2011 00:59 Almonjin wrote: A year from now, there will be some lively editorials dedicated to analyzing why these unbeatable giants have failed to achieve success in SC2. They will arrive at a list of factors overlooked by the OP - including the age and financial status of the BW pros, shifts in the availability of high-level salaries for SC2 players, overall changes in the political economy of the scene itself, and of course - the differences between BW and SC2 that we don't yet fully understand.
My opinion is obviously unpopular on this subject but SC2 has more strategic potential than BW because the bar for perfection in mechanics is so much lower. I've never been terribly impressed by the ability to compensate for ridiculously antiquated pathfinding and design. The high level strategy/or "mind games," the chess element of Starcraft 2 will become increasingly pronounced as overall mechanics improve and players develop more mental breathing room with which to be devious. The reason Brood War was NOT superior to SC2 in terms of design (although more cultivated than the currently adolescent SC2) was precisely the intensity of the mechanics involved - to the point where high level strategy really only emerged from a handful of prodigies practicing seventy hours a week. This isn't admirable, from the standpoint of psychology its mindless. Training your brain to hold 9-10 tasks instead of the average seven is interesting but not when it is a requirement to even enter the higher echelons of play. We acknowledge that some Sc2 players are more "devious" or possessed of skill at mind games and high level strategy, but have poorer mechanics. This is great. It means that strength in another mental skillset can be brought to bear to win games and create more diversity. A more conventional player with superior mechanics can still win, easily, but could also lose. This is what gave rise to the cult of practice in BW and I think Sc2 teams have, rightly, mainly eschewed this defunct model in favor of a more circumspect practice structure in which players do more than grind game processes into their subconscious - exploring tactical approaches in an individual or small group setting along with the general milieu of the ladder.
The truth that the BW fetishists won't admit is that mechanics isn't, and isn't going to be enough to win in Sc2.
This is an incredibly uneducated argument.
In a RTS high mechanical ceilings result in more decision making rather than less. That's a huge part of why Broodwar is such a hard game to play. Yes, the mechanics are hard, but it's not a game that's won by mechanics, and the human limitation of mechanical skill is responsible for a lot of strategic depth.
Actually the contrary, you don't appear to understand what you're saying. Improving mechanics up to the skill ceiling is probably the most consistent way to improve your win ratio in every matchup. It is possible to get perfect or close at BW mechanics, it is extraordinarily difficult and requires an immense amount of practice. Players that can do not only this but can muster the mental energy to engage in devious strategy and mind games are amongst the top players in BW. The issue with this is you get a few like Flash that can pull this off, and a body of pro gamers for whom the most rational strategy is to grind mechanics harder and harder in the hopes that they will eventually internalize them to the point that some mental energy will remain to be used. It's simple really, and if you think about it not even that controversial.
No you're still wrong. When you're in a situation where it's not possible to execute everything perfectly is when decision making matters the most.
If everyone had perfect mechanics, and perfect micro, and everything else at all times, the game would be way easier to solve.
You're talking from a very shallow point of view, you don't even understand what strategy is. And as for mind games... mind-games aren't something you should strive for, if all you want is mind-games, why not just have a best of 51 rock-paper-scissors or something... there's mind games in that, and I'm sure there will be some players that will have a pretty high winning percentage, but that doesn't mean there's any strategic depth in the game.
I watched some proleague the other night, I don't watch BW often I'll be honest. But based on what I saw, Mirror matchups at least. look identical to sc2.
PvP Mass dragoon + some reavers vs Mass dragoon some reavers.. plays out exactly like Mass stalker + Collosus. ZvZ.. one player tried to go for muta's the other player made more lings.. the other player won by just running lings at him. How is that any different to any ZvZ in sc2?
There are differences in the games, this is obvious. but to a casual observer, both games look the same, they follow similar ebb and flow.
There was nothing particularly special about MVP in BW and neither is he in SC2, he's just very good but that is all he will ever be (just the best player in SC2), he won't bring magic into the game with far reaching concepts like the top players in BW.
I don't know, I think MVP is pretty amazing at SC2. And as others have pointed out, BW is ten years old, SC2 is one year old. The games shouldn't even really be compared like that.
Nestea, Leenock and Stephano seem like notable exceptions, but they are still nothing in comparison, and none have won 3 GSLs.
I believe NesTea has won 3 GSLs, Leenock might win one (pretty sure he will), and could be on his way to another. Who knows? Why specifically those three players though? I mean, is there anything about someone like: MarineKingPrime, or Idra, or Huk, that you find to be lacking? Especially when you keep in mind that this is the first generation of professionals for that game, not the I don't know how many generations of pros there were in BW, but probably more than one.
EPT
