On November 30 2011 10:37 MasterBlasterCaster wrote: In my opinion, SC2 is a much more exciting game to watch. And not only because of the pretty lights and flashes, though those do help a whole lot. It's more fast-paced, the action is usually big and one-sided and it seems like the players aren't even CLOSE to mastering the game. Which makes it really exciting to see new strategies coming out that destroy old strategies; and resurgences of old strategies that start dominating again.
It would seem to me that a 1/1/1 being easy is a problem with the quality of opponent, not the quality of the game itself. Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems to me that a harder, and therefore less accessible, game is not necessarily a better game. And I do believe that most of the shortcuts added in by Blizzard are vast improvements; freeing up more time to be spent on, frankly, more interesting parts of the game.
Such as? Blizzard didn't compensate for the simplified mechanics by providing more interesting units/spells that provided greater tactical/strategic options that what we had in BW. Instead of interesting units like the lurker and reaver, we got roaches and collosi, and even units carried over from BW (like mutalisks) have reduced potential in SC2.
So, how exactly did adding automine, smartcasting and MBS enhance the more interesting parts of the game?
In my experience, battles in SC2 are more spectacular, visually pleasing, and much faster paced and confusing, than BW battles. It simulates real war in a more accurate manner, in my opinion. Which, admittedly, is worth about as much as much as the space it takes up...
I played a ton of SC1 when I was younger but never had the inclination to try my skill at 1v1 and never really got into watching the Korean scene. Once I started playing SC2 I really started spectating games as well as playing them. From being introduced to TL, I began to watch some of the SC1 games as well such as proleague. Admittedly I am very novice when it comes to BW knowledge but from the minimal amount I have seen it is much more exciting to watch. There really isn't anything enchanting about watching 2 deathballs clash and blow each other up in a matter of 10-20 seconds. In my opinion as a SC2 player, BW is much more enjoyable to watch and you can really tell how much more skill and devotion it takes to be top tier. I have been seriously toying with the idea of just reinstalling BW and trying it out again, if only I could find my cases and CD keys! ><
Honestly, everyone should try and check out the SPL matches if you get the chance. BW diehard or SC2 noob, the skill level in Korean BW is down right astonishing and very evident.
On November 30 2011 10:55 Kharnage wrote: I would much rather watch a game of strategy and tactical control over the intense micromangement of the macro mechanics in BW.
I would rather see players lose or win based off sieging or unsieging tanks at the right time or doing a drops or having the drops denied over he didn't tell his probes to mine.
bw has all of that you mentioned: strategy, tactical control along with intense micro and macro.
they removed worker rally and put in other mechanics to balance it (mule, chrono, larva, creep) unit production in bw pretty much the same as warp-ins. (look somewhere else, click click click click click click)
dont make it seem like bw is some automobile from early 1900's because it isnt. there is no issue with micro/macro in bw, sc2 is just easier when it comes to interface, not that bw is worse.
It is not worse! It is even superior in the way it still paves the way to everything E-Sport is aspiring to be.
The point is that BW IS an old automobile. It has this incredible charm, all those fancy glitches that brings back all this nostalgia of the good old times but ultimatelly it is obsolete. It has so many game design, ergonomical and technical issues (come on, Dragoon micro...) it is not QA-compliant to today's standards anymore.
To go on with the car analogy:
As of today any F1 car has Assisted direction, electronic gearboxes, the things are just ridiculous freaking combat jets on wheels. Pitstops are like "automated micro fiesta" with 8-10 minions rushing to freakin deconstruct and reconstruct the whole car anew in like litterally seconds.
Does this make the pilot a lazy slouchy bastard? And why has F1 grown into that shape? --> To allow the pilots to focus on fucking RACING FASTER than the other guy. And on that only.
The pilot of do not have to micro manage his own car glitches in the fear that it just goes out of control and smashes him dead against the wall at the next turn.
Does it make todays F1 pilots lesser pilots than the older guys that risked their necks at every second? I dont think so.
Tbh, nowadays I think that F1 guys grown to become better pilots because they are able to drive safer, way faster while pulling way more finer racing manouvers then before = WIN for the sport aspect. (Unless you like enjoy watching guys burning alive or smashing their skulls all over the place)
SC2 hasn't grown up to this yet. But I want to believe that the direction it is going it the right one.
Let's use some real life sport analogy for comparison sake , Take professional sports as an example compared to a accomplish PGA tour professional to an amateur , What are they playing ? Golf of course , however in comparison between the two players , The amateur in tournament pressured situation will falter , because mechanically speaking he isn't trained to deal with this kind of situation , Having a sound swing requires tons of dedication and hours allocated to getting the swing to work they way you want it to be , these can be used as an example for broodwar micro and macro mechanics plus game sense .
An amateur golfer may have talent but can he do like what a pro golfer could do ? definitely not than every tom,dick and hary could just come to the golf scene and earn millions of bucks easily , Same goes to Professional broodwar , not matter how many hours ,I put in to the game , I could not even come close to any semi pro broodwar players these days , because the amount of hardwork they put in the game is just amazing , 14 hours of practice a day ? , 3 hours of sleep ? . Can I beat tiger wood now that I have better a golf swing ? nope I can't he's just miles ahead of me mentally ,physically and strategy wise through his superior game plan and scrambling.
Show me a sc2 in house practice regime that encompasses such dedication to a game like broodwar pro gamers do .
On November 30 2011 11:55 Kiett wrote: Watching a game that you don't play and don't understand is uninteresting? Gee, what a surprise.
My first few times watching BW, I had no clue what was going on. One guy has an army, other guy has an army, they fight, things die, yawn. I fell asleep halfway through a PL match once. Then I figured it might do me some good to, idk, actually learn about the game. I did my research, watched more games, and when things began to make sense, they began to get interesting. It's not inaccessible. You just didn't make any effort at all. Like the other guy said, someone who's never watched SC2 would look at it similarly with confusion and apathy as well.
Also, the guy probably recommended to you really lame moments. "Epic moments" in BW aren't any less obvious or flashy imo. An entire control group of dragoons melting into blue goo from a well-placed mine, a reaver scarab exploding into 10 probes, zealots being dropped onto into the fray and mine dragging/blowing up tank lines, storms annihilating masses of hydras and lurkers. How are those slow or low key?
I didn't really play or understand SC2 before I watched some pro-games. I found it to be instantly attractive. Whatever the reason for that is, and I'm sure you'll find plenty, that was my natural reaction. My natural reaction to BW was: meh. I don't exactly have much interest in learning all about the game, because... well the same reason you may not have all that much interest in learning all about wine, let's say. Wine is very complicated, it has a great story, it's deep and not as inaccessible as outsiders think. It's a very fun and fulfilling hobby. But some people just don't like wine, and even if they could like wine if only they tried, they just don't care.
IDK, the only moment I really remember was Boxer (i think) dropping a bunch of nukes on some dude and this one caster was going insane like it was the greatest thing on earth. It was cool, mainly because this caster kid was EXCITED, but I didn't get why it was any more special than anything else. And yes, I am well aware of the fact that I can do research and watch more matches and these things would make more sense and have more meaning. The whole thing about it being inaccessible TO ME, is that I don't care about learning those things or doing that research. SC2 drew me in, BW did not. That is not a criticism of what is obviously a very, very, very good game. Nor is it criticism of those BW pros who are obviously very, very, very good gamers.
On November 30 2011 11:57 MasterBlasterCaster wrote: It will be very hard for me to get into BW, because the graphics thing is kind of a big deal to me.
You are not a real gamer.
How old are you? You must be very young, I'd say not older than 12.
I just made a comment in another blog about getting back to BW and I absolutely love the path finding because it forces me to always monitor my army. There is nothing like knowing you have to take full control of your units in order for them to do what you want them to do. Nothing more empowering.
It's easy to see the negatives when you don't look for the positives.
There is nothing nostalgic about it. There are many of us who still play it because its enjoyable and the scene is very much alive.
These standards you speak of are an optical illusion of the game designers. They are always being manipulated.
What exactly is it that you think I am arguing about? And what is it that you think I don't understand?
You are not a real gamer.
How old are you? You must be very young, I'd say not older than 12.
I'm 21 years old.
I'm not playing the game, I'm watching someone else play it. Graphics don't matter when I'm playing, they do matter a lot when I'm watching it being played. Get over yourself.
On November 30 2011 11:57 MasterBlasterCaster wrote: It will be very hard for me to get into BW, because the graphics thing is kind of a big deal to me.
You are not a real gamer.
How old are you? You must be very young, I'd say not older than 12.
And if you are older than that AND still pulling this quality of post I'd say you're certainly not better than him... At least pull an Edit and fix your QUOTE micro you condescending epic-fail dude.
Starcraft 2 is inferior strategically because there are no units whose abilities are virtually game-breaking. The key to the fun and incredible strategic depth of Brood War was in terrain control and force multipliers.
In Brood War, spider mines could completely lock a player's movements (especially in PvT) until detection was out, and even then players had to be very cautious. That meant that players would just not move without detection. Lurkers performed essentially the same role for Zergs, and DTs performed a similar task for Protoss. Each of these units was incredibly effective at controlling space, with some variations. Once in place, you really had to do some work to play around them. A trio of lurkers on a ramp can kill basically infinite marines. This lead to some interesting tactics as Zerg like taking a third as far away from your main as possible to buy time for counterattacks and spread your opponent out when he pushed. You could still defend your third with Nydus Canals, Mutas, and the near-invincible ramp lurkers. Hell, even Siege Tanks in Brood War seem more effective with their base 70 damage vs. armored and larger splash damage area.
Protoss also had better harassment options with Reaver drops. While still underexplored, I think pinning your opponent back with Warp Prism harass could, and probably will become more prominent in SC2 as the game gets developed more.
Then there's the force multipliers. Units and spells that really make battles one-sided. Arbiters were like a cheaper, easier-to-produce, and much, much faster Mothership you could build in multiples. Cloaking your entire army and launching Stasis attacks to split armies, recalling into bases, etc. was just awesome. Seriously, as a Terran, don't underestimate how scary mass cloaking is. If they gain even a few seconds to get into close range of your Tank line without being able to respond you are probably dead. EMP was in SC1 also, and it came from a unit that was basically a Raven with much cooler spells (except for PDD, that shit is amazing).
Brood War Psionic Storm was brutal. The spell was much more difficult to cast and spread out properly, but while the AOE was effectively smaller, the DPS was much higher. A lot of the best comebacks in BW history came from well-executed storms during a Protoss counterattack. For Zerg, the most important Force Multiplier was the unbelievable Defiler's Dark Swarm. Completely shutting down enemy ranged attacks (not lowering range, not lowering damage, literally just blanking every marine, vulture, goliath, unsieged tank, dragoon, photon cannon, ghost, and sunken colony in the area of effect).
These effects are virtually overpowered. Good use of them made for better players. If they re-released Brood Wars with slightly updated graphics and automine for workers, I'd say they are on the right track. In fact, fixing these design oversights seems to be their sole goal for Heart of the Swarm. And I'm very happy about it.
On November 30 2011 11:31 MasterBlasterCaster wrote: At the risk of being unpopular for holding this opinion:
Criticising something you don't understand just comes off as ignorant. If you're gonna throw your opinion around at least make an attempt to watch/understand BW (CJ vs ACE is on today, check out the LR + Stream).
What exactly did I criticize that isn't readily apparent with the shortest viewing of BW ever? I said that the graphics were very old and therefore not nearly as good as SC2. That isn't arguable, nor is it really a criticism, nor will it be changed by my watching more games. BW graphics are perfectly fine for their day, but be honest, if a new game came out with BW graphics, you would laugh your butt off.
I said that my impression of it was that it was slow and inaccessible. This is not a criticism of the game. The game is, I'm sure, wonderful and balanced, and obviously far more popular than SC2. My opinion on it is that it is not as interesting or fun to watch. I don't watch hockey, and I do watch football. It's not because hockey is bad, and football is good. It is that I find one interesting and the other boring. That doesn't mean that hockey or BW are boring, or stupid, or not every bit as cool and great and whatever as SC2 and football. It means I don't like it as much.
It will be very hard for me to get into BW, because the graphics thing is kind of a big deal to me.
You are being criticized because the exact argument can be used by a SC:BW fan about SC2. Hockey and football are both amazing sports. I assume knew the rules and general concepts of both sports before you judged them. However you have not given the chance to SC:BW.
Though, I'm not really sure why people think BW battles are slower. I personally think when SC2 maps get a bit bigger, and pros learn to spread their units better, the battles will become "longer". My dragoons used to disappear in a blink of an eye all the time LOL.
Good article, I agree with a lot of the points but I still hold final verdict until we're at least 1 year into Legacy of the Void. After all, the earlist date I can get on Flash in esports is 2007 and considering BW had already been out for 9 years by this point that's certaintly something to take into account.
On November 30 2011 12:10 MasterBlasterCaster wrote: Because we all know that Rommel has photon cannons, carrier ships, zerglings, lurkers and mined minerals and gas...
Watch these if you haven't got an idea what is broodwar about in the eyes of xellos
Also, graphics do not make games. Graphics are merely there for people to visualize the mathematical constructs of gameplay. This is why games like Ocarina of Time, Metal Gear Solid, Gran Tourismo 3, Super Metroid, and Starcraft are still superior to modern day garbage like Fable 3, Need for Speed: the Run, Jurassic Park: the Game, or Stronghold 3, despite their lower budgets and simpler graphics.
The idea that because broodwar was harder then hence it was a better and more competitive game is ridiculous.
Starcraft is at the highest level a competition between two people. The "difficulty" of a game in no way comes down to how unintelligent the user interface is, it comes down to how good is your opponent.
Chess, in essence is a game purely of strategy. Almost everyone knows the movements of the pieces and how they interact yet you will NEVER beat a professional chess player because they're strategically miles and miles ahead of you.
My personal opinion is that the difficulty of Broodwar hindered the strategical progression of the game. There was always going to be someone who beat you simply because their mechanics were miles ahead of yours, regardless of how well you think strategically. Don't confuse what I'm saying though, I am not at all saying Broodwar is strategically insignificant just that as a whole strategy in SC2 will develop faster in 1 year than strategy in Broodwar will in that same period of time.
Starcraft 2 has a much lower entry point in terms of mechanics, meaning that in a competition between two players the game comes down more to the tactics and strategy than "who can crank out the mechanics better". Yes, there will always be players who straight up macro better than you. IdrA will always have better macro than you and this will give him a bit of an advantage, but if you have enough macro to keep in the same ballpark with him then the game comes down to strategy and tactics instead.
I personally enjoy the mind games behind the game, rather than watching who is more practiced in selecting buildings and pressing a button to build units.
All in all SC2 is still a relatively new game so the strategies have not had time to really show their true potential, people are still improving their game at a faster rate by working on the mechanics side of things. However, I believe in the future SC2 will show leaps and bounds in improvement on the strategy and tactics side of thing as players will not be held back by the difficulty of getting the mechanics perfected.
Queue hate from BW enthusiasts dismissing everything I've said as dumb, ignorant and naive.
On November 30 2011 12:10 MasterBlasterCaster wrote: Because we all know that Rommel has photon cannons, carrier ships, zerglings, lurkers and mined minerals and gas...
No but he had tanks, airplanes, ships, submarines, oil, food, stock lines, etc.
Seems to me Rommel lost most of his battles when he went with the old "everybodddddddddy attack" move.
EPT
