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On November 05 2016 19:58 Miragee wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2016 12:50 Slaughter wrote:On November 05 2016 12:36 Ferrose wrote:On November 05 2016 10:43 Slaughter wrote:
Kids can still have access to it, but that wasn't even what I was talking about. The demographic that it is targeted at is still influenced by media. Why do you think more balanced representation of minorities and women on TV/Movies has been something that has been pushed for in the US the last 15ish years? It isn't for the kids.
As I mentioned I don't even fully agree with the perspective the author of that article is using to critique Keijo, I just acknowledge the value it does have (about Keijo within the greater context of over abundance of it in anime and media in general) while adding in my own opinion on Keijo that outside of fan service the show is severely lacking in offerings. There are fan service heavy shows that I do like, but they sell themselves to me with other things and Keijo doesn't have anything to sell to me personally. It's still up to the audience to view things critically and to not be influenced by media. These are adults; they're capable of thinking for themselves. And if they aren't, that isn't the fault of an anime, or any other form of art. Also Toad I can't believe you unironically linked a Gawker article. Of course it's trash. In some sense yes but in many cases no. Even informed and intelligent people are influenced by media and most people are not informed nor intelligent. There are also varying degrees of influence that can reach into the conscious and the unconscious mind. Media and science have been looking into this issue for a while now and especially in the west you can see conscious efforts to change things over the last 20 years and it continues today. Media can normalize certain ideas within a culture if its a common message. So yes while there are certainly elements of personal responsibility many individuals for whatever reason can't or won't do it (or only selectively do it). This is a good point. Anime has been pushing fanservice at an increasing manner into the viewer's consciousness. The problem here isn't that a few individuals are able to still differentiate. The problem isn't even the fanservice in one show in general. The problem is the progress that is made and that more and more people become increasingly accepting towards fanservice. This leads to more and more shows build around that premise or that are using cheap fanservice to make up for the poor writing of plot and characters. Thus fewer shows, that are actually good, are being made because it's easier for the creators to shit some senseless script and add some fanservice than to actually create a good show. That happens in western TV as well btw. It has been creeping in here for the past couple decades. Now we have shows in germany like Bauer sucht Frau (Farmer is looking for a wife), Adam und Eva (basically naked dates), Dschungel Camp (stars in a jungle camp eating kangeroo shit) etc. etc. which are getting the most viewers. And it probably all "started" with Big Brother. It's honestly sickening.
I agree with Toad, except that "fanservice" doesn't need media to push it and make it more accepted. It already is, and has been that way forever. Its acceptance is totally independent to fanservice anime like Keijo. Not to mention there are zero actual issues with it in the first place.
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TLADT24920 Posts
Watched the first episode of Keijo after conversation above. Weirdest thing ever! On the one hand, I was laughing for a good portion of it but it's such a stupid concept -_- I realize they don't want us to take it seriously but I question whether I would be able to continue watching the same concept, especially seeing as it'll get too old (and being so stupid...)
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It doesn't get old, it gets better every episode
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Keijo is saving anime, of course it doesn't get old
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yeah like Sent said, I dropped keijo ep1 thinking it's just too stupid but found myself watching ep2 again because everyone was talking about it. Then ep3.
By the time ep4 came around I undropped it and ep5 was again a step up for me. It's really getting better by the week.
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2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
It's getting stupider by the week, which makes it better.
These move names are glorious.
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Yea pretty much take the sentiment of Znf's review of shelter and apply that to Keijo and that is how I feel about the show ^_^
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Im with Slaughter on this. Keijo is demeaning and sexist.
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TLADT24920 Posts
we'll see. Might try another episode or two then either keep or drop.
On November 06 2016 04:23 Slaughter wrote:
Yea pretty much take the sentiment of Znf's review of shelter and apply that to Keijo and that is how I feel about the show ^_^
hehe it fits well too
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Either you love the ridiculousness or you hate it. I find it super fun to watch, turn off your brain and laugh at it.
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On November 05 2016 23:15 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2016 19:58 Miragee wrote:On November 05 2016 12:50 Slaughter wrote:On November 05 2016 12:36 Ferrose wrote:On November 05 2016 10:43 Slaughter wrote:
Kids can still have access to it, but that wasn't even what I was talking about. The demographic that it is targeted at is still influenced by media. Why do you think more balanced representation of minorities and women on TV/Movies has been something that has been pushed for in the US the last 15ish years? It isn't for the kids.
As I mentioned I don't even fully agree with the perspective the author of that article is using to critique Keijo, I just acknowledge the value it does have (about Keijo within the greater context of over abundance of it in anime and media in general) while adding in my own opinion on Keijo that outside of fan service the show is severely lacking in offerings. There are fan service heavy shows that I do like, but they sell themselves to me with other things and Keijo doesn't have anything to sell to me personally. It's still up to the audience to view things critically and to not be influenced by media. These are adults; they're capable of thinking for themselves. And if they aren't, that isn't the fault of an anime, or any other form of art. Also Toad I can't believe you unironically linked a Gawker article. Of course it's trash. In some sense yes but in many cases no. Even informed and intelligent people are influenced by media and most people are not informed nor intelligent. There are also varying degrees of influence that can reach into the conscious and the unconscious mind. Media and science have been looking into this issue for a while now and especially in the west you can see conscious efforts to change things over the last 20 years and it continues today. Media can normalize certain ideas within a culture if its a common message. So yes while there are certainly elements of personal responsibility many individuals for whatever reason can't or won't do it (or only selectively do it). This is a good point. Anime has been pushing fanservice at an increasing manner into the viewer's consciousness. The problem here isn't that a few individuals are able to still differentiate. The problem isn't even the fanservice in one show in general. The problem is the progress that is made and that more and more people become increasingly accepting towards fanservice. This leads to more and more shows build around that premise or that are using cheap fanservice to make up for the poor writing of plot and characters. Thus fewer shows, that are actually good, are being made because it's easier for the creators to shit some senseless script and add some fanservice than to actually create a good show. That happens in western TV as well btw. It has been creeping in here for the past couple decades. Now we have shows in germany like Bauer sucht Frau (Farmer is looking for a wife), Adam und Eva (basically naked dates), Dschungel Camp (stars in a jungle camp eating kangeroo shit) etc. etc. which are getting the most viewers. And it probably all "started" with Big Brother. It's honestly sickening. Imo only the second part would be a problem. Yes there are shows that get fanservice slapped onto them because the show otherwise wouldn't be interesting enough. But Keijo is the former in that the fanservice wasn't an afterthought but instead the center of what this show is and how it gets its ridiculousness in the first place. Clearly this wouldn't be as much of a hit without that. And imo there's nothing wrong with that.
So if anime would largely shift towards being fanservice as the main object and some added clutter to fill space, that would be ok? Just hypothetical of course.
On November 06 2016 00:16 Sentenal wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2016 19:58 Miragee wrote:On November 05 2016 12:50 Slaughter wrote:On November 05 2016 12:36 Ferrose wrote:On November 05 2016 10:43 Slaughter wrote:
Kids can still have access to it, but that wasn't even what I was talking about. The demographic that it is targeted at is still influenced by media. Why do you think more balanced representation of minorities and women on TV/Movies has been something that has been pushed for in the US the last 15ish years? It isn't for the kids.
As I mentioned I don't even fully agree with the perspective the author of that article is using to critique Keijo, I just acknowledge the value it does have (about Keijo within the greater context of over abundance of it in anime and media in general) while adding in my own opinion on Keijo that outside of fan service the show is severely lacking in offerings. There are fan service heavy shows that I do like, but they sell themselves to me with other things and Keijo doesn't have anything to sell to me personally. It's still up to the audience to view things critically and to not be influenced by media. These are adults; they're capable of thinking for themselves. And if they aren't, that isn't the fault of an anime, or any other form of art. Also Toad I can't believe you unironically linked a Gawker article. Of course it's trash. In some sense yes but in many cases no. Even informed and intelligent people are influenced by media and most people are not informed nor intelligent. There are also varying degrees of influence that can reach into the conscious and the unconscious mind. Media and science have been looking into this issue for a while now and especially in the west you can see conscious efforts to change things over the last 20 years and it continues today. Media can normalize certain ideas within a culture if its a common message. So yes while there are certainly elements of personal responsibility many individuals for whatever reason can't or won't do it (or only selectively do it). This is a good point. Anime has been pushing fanservice at an increasing manner into the viewer's consciousness. The problem here isn't that a few individuals are able to still differentiate. The problem isn't even the fanservice in one show in general. The problem is the progress that is made and that more and more people become increasingly accepting towards fanservice. This leads to more and more shows build around that premise or that are using cheap fanservice to make up for the poor writing of plot and characters. Thus fewer shows, that are actually good, are being made because it's easier for the creators to shit some senseless script and add some fanservice than to actually create a good show. That happens in western TV as well btw. It has been creeping in here for the past couple decades. Now we have shows in germany like Bauer sucht Frau (Farmer is looking for a wife), Adam und Eva (basically naked dates), Dschungel Camp (stars in a jungle camp eating kangeroo shit) etc. etc. which are getting the most viewers. And it probably all "started" with Big Brother. It's honestly sickening. I agree with Toad, except that "fanservice" doesn't need media to push it and make it more accepted. It already is, and has been that way forever. Its acceptance is totally independent to fanservice anime like Keijo. Not to mention there are zero actual issues with it in the first place.
If some dude is watching asses while having a coffee in a bar, fine. You don't need to emphasis the one animalistic trait humanity still has in media. It's especially ironic in a society where being are getting hysterically defensive when you tell them humans are basically animals. Now, it might not be your opinion and you can enjoy your asses and boobs all day all you want, I don't care. But I personally expect from media, done by a race that views itself as all-knowing and superior, something that doesn't play to our animalistic instincts but to our intellects that brought humanity forward to where it is now. The intellect that enables us to learn something new and to link correlations.
And I think there is a huge issue with "fanservice" in the real world as well. People are being judged by their appearance and swayed by other people's appearance way too much. We should know better because we came so far as human beings that the inside should be worth more than the outside.
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On November 06 2016 07:39 Miragee wrote:
If some dude is watching asses while having a coffee in a bar, fine. You don't need to emphasis the one animalistic trait humanity still has in media. It's especially ironic in a society where being are getting hysterically defensive when you tell them humans are basically animals. Now, it might not be your opinion and you can enjoy your asses and boobs all day all you want, I don't care. But I personally expect from media, done by a race that views itself as all-knowing and superior, something that doesn't play to our animalistic instincts but to our intellects that brought humanity forward to where it is now. The intellect that enables us to learn something new and to link correlations.
And I think there is a huge issue with "fanservice" in the real world as well. People are being judged by their appearance and swayed by other people's appearance way too much. We should know better because we came so far as human beings that the inside should be worth more than the outside.
+ Show Spoiler [off-topic] +Sure, humans are intelligent relative to the rest of the animal kingdom(Which we are still a part of, regardless of what certain individuals get offended by) but so what? Our most basic instincts are still there and people still act upon them and they'll continue to act upon them, which is completely unrelated to their intelligence.
To pretend otherwise would to me be an incredibly naïve point of view. I can enjoy stories, works and art created by the finest human minds but i sure as hell also enjoy me some tits and ass. Why would i pretend otherwise?
We can have both good and complex stories that rely on good storytelling and characterization and fun shows that rely on action and fanservice and we can enjoy both, maybe you only enjoy one of the two, and that's up to you. But i enjoy both and i'd dread the idea of anime existing in a state where only one of the two was being made. But just like most other mediums the majority of things made are garbage. The exact same thing applies to anime, however since anime is such a small medium relative to other mediums you're used to, you're able to be exposed to most if not almost all of what's being made over the course of a year.
Also, humans judging eachother based on appearance has nothing to do with fanservice, it's simply the result of hundreds of thousands of years of evolution. Sexual selection is a thing and it's fairly relevant, even for humans. It's a completely human thing to do and with modern humans being evolutionary stagnant it's unlikely to be something we'll ever get rid of, even if you got rid of all fanservice ever. So it has nothing to do with knowing better because we've come so far and everything to do with us simply being animals at the end of the day.
Edit: But this has gone fairly offtopic, so i'll probably just drop this here.
On a more relevant note, i have begun to watch Kimi ni Todoke and it's pretty damn adorable.
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On November 06 2016 07:39 Miragee wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2016 23:15 Toadesstern wrote:On November 05 2016 19:58 Miragee wrote:On November 05 2016 12:50 Slaughter wrote:On November 05 2016 12:36 Ferrose wrote:On November 05 2016 10:43 Slaughter wrote:
Kids can still have access to it, but that wasn't even what I was talking about. The demographic that it is targeted at is still influenced by media. Why do you think more balanced representation of minorities and women on TV/Movies has been something that has been pushed for in the US the last 15ish years? It isn't for the kids.
As I mentioned I don't even fully agree with the perspective the author of that article is using to critique Keijo, I just acknowledge the value it does have (about Keijo within the greater context of over abundance of it in anime and media in general) while adding in my own opinion on Keijo that outside of fan service the show is severely lacking in offerings. There are fan service heavy shows that I do like, but they sell themselves to me with other things and Keijo doesn't have anything to sell to me personally. It's still up to the audience to view things critically and to not be influenced by media. These are adults; they're capable of thinking for themselves. And if they aren't, that isn't the fault of an anime, or any other form of art. Also Toad I can't believe you unironically linked a Gawker article. Of course it's trash. In some sense yes but in many cases no. Even informed and intelligent people are influenced by media and most people are not informed nor intelligent. There are also varying degrees of influence that can reach into the conscious and the unconscious mind. Media and science have been looking into this issue for a while now and especially in the west you can see conscious efforts to change things over the last 20 years and it continues today. Media can normalize certain ideas within a culture if its a common message. So yes while there are certainly elements of personal responsibility many individuals for whatever reason can't or won't do it (or only selectively do it). This is a good point. Anime has been pushing fanservice at an increasing manner into the viewer's consciousness. The problem here isn't that a few individuals are able to still differentiate. The problem isn't even the fanservice in one show in general. The problem is the progress that is made and that more and more people become increasingly accepting towards fanservice. This leads to more and more shows build around that premise or that are using cheap fanservice to make up for the poor writing of plot and characters. Thus fewer shows, that are actually good, are being made because it's easier for the creators to shit some senseless script and add some fanservice than to actually create a good show. That happens in western TV as well btw. It has been creeping in here for the past couple decades. Now we have shows in germany like Bauer sucht Frau (Farmer is looking for a wife), Adam und Eva (basically naked dates), Dschungel Camp (stars in a jungle camp eating kangeroo shit) etc. etc. which are getting the most viewers. And it probably all "started" with Big Brother. It's honestly sickening. Imo only the second part would be a problem. Yes there are shows that get fanservice slapped onto them because the show otherwise wouldn't be interesting enough. But Keijo is the former in that the fanservice wasn't an afterthought but instead the center of what this show is and how it gets its ridiculousness in the first place. Clearly this wouldn't be as much of a hit without that. And imo there's nothing wrong with that. So if anime would largely shift towards being fanservice as the main object and some added clutter to fill space, that would be ok? Just hypothetical of course. Show nested quote +On November 06 2016 00:16 Sentenal wrote:On November 05 2016 19:58 Miragee wrote:On November 05 2016 12:50 Slaughter wrote:On November 05 2016 12:36 Ferrose wrote:On November 05 2016 10:43 Slaughter wrote:
Kids can still have access to it, but that wasn't even what I was talking about. The demographic that it is targeted at is still influenced by media. Why do you think more balanced representation of minorities and women on TV/Movies has been something that has been pushed for in the US the last 15ish years? It isn't for the kids.
As I mentioned I don't even fully agree with the perspective the author of that article is using to critique Keijo, I just acknowledge the value it does have (about Keijo within the greater context of over abundance of it in anime and media in general) while adding in my own opinion on Keijo that outside of fan service the show is severely lacking in offerings. There are fan service heavy shows that I do like, but they sell themselves to me with other things and Keijo doesn't have anything to sell to me personally. It's still up to the audience to view things critically and to not be influenced by media. These are adults; they're capable of thinking for themselves. And if they aren't, that isn't the fault of an anime, or any other form of art. Also Toad I can't believe you unironically linked a Gawker article. Of course it's trash. In some sense yes but in many cases no. Even informed and intelligent people are influenced by media and most people are not informed nor intelligent. There are also varying degrees of influence that can reach into the conscious and the unconscious mind. Media and science have been looking into this issue for a while now and especially in the west you can see conscious efforts to change things over the last 20 years and it continues today. Media can normalize certain ideas within a culture if its a common message. So yes while there are certainly elements of personal responsibility many individuals for whatever reason can't or won't do it (or only selectively do it). This is a good point. Anime has been pushing fanservice at an increasing manner into the viewer's consciousness. The problem here isn't that a few individuals are able to still differentiate. The problem isn't even the fanservice in one show in general. The problem is the progress that is made and that more and more people become increasingly accepting towards fanservice. This leads to more and more shows build around that premise or that are using cheap fanservice to make up for the poor writing of plot and characters. Thus fewer shows, that are actually good, are being made because it's easier for the creators to shit some senseless script and add some fanservice than to actually create a good show. That happens in western TV as well btw. It has been creeping in here for the past couple decades. Now we have shows in germany like Bauer sucht Frau (Farmer is looking for a wife), Adam und Eva (basically naked dates), Dschungel Camp (stars in a jungle camp eating kangeroo shit) etc. etc. which are getting the most viewers. And it probably all "started" with Big Brother. It's honestly sickening. I agree with Toad, except that "fanservice" doesn't need media to push it and make it more accepted. It already is, and has been that way forever. Its acceptance is totally independent to fanservice anime like Keijo. Not to mention there are zero actual issues with it in the first place. If some dude is watching asses while having a coffee in a bar, fine. You don't need to emphasis the one animalistic trait humanity still has in media. It's especially ironic in a society where being are getting hysterically defensive when you tell them humans are basically animals. Now, it might not be your opinion and you can enjoy your asses and boobs all day all you want, I don't care. But I personally expect from media, done by a race that views itself as all-knowing and superior, something that doesn't play to our animalistic instincts but to our intellects that brought humanity forward to where it is now. The intellect that enables us to learn something new and to link correlations.And I think there is a huge issue with "fanservice" in the real world as well. People are being judged by their appearance and swayed by other people's appearance way too much. We should know better because we came so far as human beings that the inside should be worth more than the outside.
1.) Which is exactly what Keijo does. Whats the problem?
2.) You know you are talking about an anime where really muscular women, and even really overweight ones, are portrayed in an extremely positive light, right? As in, getting protrayed as really talented, or as mentors, etc. Ability completely trumps appearance, at least in-universe in the anime. So again... I don't see a problem.
On November 06 2016 05:17 Emnjay808 wrote:
Im with Slaughter on this. Keijo is demeaning and sexist.
See, this is the side you people are on. And sadly, this is how most of the haters have reacted, without watching any of it at all too.
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Yea I watched 2 episodes of that crap. Obviously we just have vastly different perspectives and varying levels of knowledge on culture and humanity. Some of the arguments here are pretty telling.
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1. Just to make things clear: It's not like I don't enjoy asses and tits. But I heavily dislike getting them thrown into my face all the time. I also heavily dislike being taking for a fool by the industry a la "throw some cheap fanservice and you, the dumb viewer, will start throwing money at me".
2. Right now, we are in a state where basically only one is being made.
3. Of course it has something to do with each other. This kind of judgement is superficial and translates everywhere. That's why anime or games are widely judged by their visuals while the actual content is shit.
But yeah this is off-topic. But I really can't hold still when people keep saying Keijo is saving anime and how glorious it is, when it's actual a piece of shit with good art and some enjoyable asses, that is passively destroying anime further.
//this post is adressing Unleashing's post. Going to bed now, maybe I'll reply to your post later Sent.
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I'm likely in the minority, but I don't see Keijo as being merely a giant festival of breasts and boobs. The setting and characters are in part constrained by the conceit of the story, but I think it otherwise is just a school/sports anime. The characters are not constantly being sexualized - yeah they're in swimsuits and they have good physiques, but that's also part of the character backgrounds.
You could look at the show and see nothing but the girls in swimsuits, but I don't think that's all that there is.
I'm not going to say it's an astoundingly brilliant display of storytelling, but the writing (for puns at least) is clever enough to be funny. And it's an absurd comedy, which works.
TL;dr - I don't think it's shit. It will save anime, but not because of its brilliant story hooks.
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Its just downright unfair to say all it does is "throw some cheap fanservice at you, and you dumb viewers will throw money at me". There is a lot more too Keijo, and if it was just fanservice and nothing else, it wouldn't be nearly as popular as it is, and would be quickly forgotten. Whats actually happening here is people think its just cheap fanservice and nothing else, and they see it being praised, and so it triggers them, thinking "how can people praise something like this!?" Is it that hard to accept that perhaps there is more to it to the people who like it, than just fanservice?
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On November 06 2016 09:30 Miragee wrote:
1. Just to make things clear: It's not like I don't enjoy asses and tits. But I heavily dislike getting them thrown into my face all the time. I also heavily dislike being taking for a fool by the industry a la "throw some cheap fanservice and you, the dumb viewer, will start throwing money at me".
2. Right now, we are in a state where basically only one is being made.
3. Of course it has something to do with each other. This kind of judgement is superficial and translates everywhere. That's why anime or games are widely judged by their visuals while the actual content is shit.
But yeah this is off-topic. But I really can't hold still when people keep saying Keijo is saving anime and how glorious it is, when it's actual a piece of shit with good art and some enjoyable asses, that is passively destroying anime further.
//this post is adressing Unleashing's post. Going to bed now, maybe I'll reply to your post later Sent.
at the end of the day people watch anime for different reasons. I wouldn't want more of this as in everything turning into Keijo but I quite like my trashy comedies every now and then. Take Twintails, KoreZom etc as examples. I know you didn't like them but I did enjoy watching those and to me it's something I want to see like once a year and that's what Keijo is for me atm.
And I can think of tons of shows that had lots of fanservice lately that completly bombed so there's certainly more to it than just the fanservice.
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Every industry is like this. There's plenty of terrible movies, music, video games, etc. that cater to casual fans and the lowest common denominator. But if you dig deep enough eventually you'll find the truly artistic stuff.
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I'm gone for over a week and this is what happens? Not cool guys.
Calling non-sexist things sexist demeans real sexism in the world. What happens is you land up in a situation like we have now with radical feminism hijacking actual feminism to the point where people dismiss real issues do to how crazy the radicals are. It's important to discuss things as they are and not as one wants them to be.
edit: That hibike ep. Wow. Kyoani you just blow me away. Beautiful. Captivating.
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EPT
