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On June 20 2016 08:38 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2016 12:01 Zambrah wrote:
It would cause chaos in that territories currently under the protection of Big Mom would (in theory) become contested between other Yonkou. These territories would pretty much become semi-battlegrounds as Yonkou crews try and assert control over the island by removing/killing the opposing crew and causing collateral damage. For instance, say Big Mom died, and Whole Cake Island became up for grabs suddenly, then Kaidou and Blackbeard would hop in and attempt to assert control over that island, likely causing a ton of violent conflict.
Alternatively, one Yonkou would seamlessly slink in and nothing would really change, but that sort of relies on the temperament of the Yonkou and currently only Shanks doesn't seem to have a serious interest in aggressive expansion.
Now that isn't to say that Big Mom is necessarily GOOD, I mean the tribute demands and harsh punishment given to those who fail to adequately deliver tribute are pretty bad, but thats still more Lawful Evil then Chaotic Neutral. i dont think you understand how alignment works... she takes over countries purely based on the sweets/other food there capable of producing and basically hold the entire country hostage to force them to deliver the food, thats neutral evil its had to really say without a map of the new world and how the yonkou territories look but its unlikely Kaidou or Blackbeard have the forces to lay reasonable claim to a (presumably) large patch of ocean and considering Big Moms critea likely wouldnt want to its possible there would be more battles between Kaidou/Blackbeard (assuming they fight) since they have one less member in there "mexican standoff" but if we look at the bigger picture removing Big Moms reign of terror is much more likely to cause good events then bad ones
We're not arguing about good or bad, we're arguing about whether or not chaos would ensue from a Yonkou power vacuum.
Is an island being contested between two Yonkou not more chaotic than one being occupied by one Yonkou?
Now I'm not trying to get into the nitty gritty of the Yonkou with regards to HOW they rule and their personalities, just the core concept of an island controlled by a single Yonkou is inherently less chaotic than one being contested by 2+ Yonkou.
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On June 20 2016 11:31 Zambrah wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2016 08:38 Forikorder wrote:On June 19 2016 12:01 Zambrah wrote:
It would cause chaos in that territories currently under the protection of Big Mom would (in theory) become contested between other Yonkou. These territories would pretty much become semi-battlegrounds as Yonkou crews try and assert control over the island by removing/killing the opposing crew and causing collateral damage. For instance, say Big Mom died, and Whole Cake Island became up for grabs suddenly, then Kaidou and Blackbeard would hop in and attempt to assert control over that island, likely causing a ton of violent conflict.
Alternatively, one Yonkou would seamlessly slink in and nothing would really change, but that sort of relies on the temperament of the Yonkou and currently only Shanks doesn't seem to have a serious interest in aggressive expansion.
Now that isn't to say that Big Mom is necessarily GOOD, I mean the tribute demands and harsh punishment given to those who fail to adequately deliver tribute are pretty bad, but thats still more Lawful Evil then Chaotic Neutral. i dont think you understand how alignment works... she takes over countries purely based on the sweets/other food there capable of producing and basically hold the entire country hostage to force them to deliver the food, thats neutral evil its had to really say without a map of the new world and how the yonkou territories look but its unlikely Kaidou or Blackbeard have the forces to lay reasonable claim to a (presumably) large patch of ocean and considering Big Moms critea likely wouldnt want to its possible there would be more battles between Kaidou/Blackbeard (assuming they fight) since they have one less member in there "mexican standoff" but if we look at the bigger picture removing Big Moms reign of terror is much more likely to cause good events then bad ones We're not arguing about good or bad, we're arguing about whether or not chaos would ensue from a Yonkou power vacuum. Is an island being contested between two Yonkou not more chaotic than one being occupied by one Yonkou? Now I'm not trying to get into the nitty gritty of the Yonkou with regards to HOW they rule and their personalities, just the core concept of an island controlled by a single Yonkou is inherently less chaotic than one being contested by 2+ Yonkou.
the question is how much of it would actually be contested though, Kaidou is gearing up for war, Blackbeard already has all of whitebeards old territory and has to worry about Marco and crew coming after him plus the WG wont like the fruit he now has (theres a reason they purposely baited WB into a war) how many troops do either of them really have to lay claim to a bunch of islands whos main value is producing delicious food?
when it comes down to it we dont know what kind of manpower Kaidou and Blackbeard have sitting idle but imo if Big Moms crew disapeared i dont think the vacuum would get filled very fast, taking out Big mom would be the same as taking out more then one quarter of pirates in the new world (since seems like Shanks doesnt have a big crew) it wouldnt be easy to lay claim to the area she controls even for a yonkou since they may even have trouble keeping the territory they have now properly claimed
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On June 20 2016 11:44 Forikorder wrote:
the question is how much of it would actually be contested though, Kaidou is gearing up for war, Blackbeard already has all of whitebeards old territory and has to worry about Marco and crew coming after him plus the WG wont like the fruit he now has (theres a reason they purposely baited WB into a war) how many troops do either of them really have to lay claim to a bunch of islands whos main value is producing delicious food?
when it comes down to it we dont know what kind of manpower Kaidou and Blackbeard have sitting idle but imo if Big Moms crew disapeared i dont think the vacuum would get filled very fast, taking out Big mom would be the same as taking out more then one quarter of pirates in the new world (since seems like Shanks doesnt have a big crew) it wouldnt be easy to lay claim to the area she controls even for a yonkou since they may even have trouble keeping the territory they have now properly claimed
Can someone remind me why the WG baited whitebeard to a war? The guy was pushing 70, he would have died / stopped being a threat soon anyhow. Blackbeard handing over Ace would not have been an issue if the WG executed him swiftly. There would have been a chance that whitebeard would have not done anything afterwards because why cry over spilled milk.
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Austria24422 Posts
Whitebeard himself, maybe. Ace and the other commanders are still pretty beast. Wiping them off the map is a big deal.
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I assumed it was better to take care of Whitebeard while he was at his weakest, and before the succession could be properly done. The entire WB crew minus only Whitebeard is a huge force, especially if you let people like Ace grow even more.
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ace would have ended up being a huge threat, to be quite frank
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On June 20 2016 18:36 herMan wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2016 11:44 Forikorder wrote:
the question is how much of it would actually be contested though, Kaidou is gearing up for war, Blackbeard already has all of whitebeards old territory and has to worry about Marco and crew coming after him plus the WG wont like the fruit he now has (theres a reason they purposely baited WB into a war) how many troops do either of them really have to lay claim to a bunch of islands whos main value is producing delicious food?
when it comes down to it we dont know what kind of manpower Kaidou and Blackbeard have sitting idle but imo if Big Moms crew disapeared i dont think the vacuum would get filled very fast, taking out Big mom would be the same as taking out more then one quarter of pirates in the new world (since seems like Shanks doesnt have a big crew) it wouldnt be easy to lay claim to the area she controls even for a yonkou since they may even have trouble keeping the territory they have now properly claimed
Can someone remind me why the WG baited whitebeard to a war? The guy was pushing 70, he would have died / stopped being a threat soon anyhow. Blackbeard handing over Ace would not have been an issue if the WG executed him swiftly. There would have been a chance that whitebeard would have not done anything afterwards because why cry over spilled milk.
his fruit was capable of literally destroying the world
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didn't they bait him in the first place because he was going to do an alliance with shanks ?
at this point it would have been really hard to deal with
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I thought the biggest reason the WG wanted the public execution of Ace was that he was Gold Roger's son which makes him a huge symbolic and potential power level threat
On June 20 2016 11:44 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2016 11:31 Zambrah wrote:On June 20 2016 08:38 Forikorder wrote:On June 19 2016 12:01 Zambrah wrote:
It would cause chaos in that territories currently under the protection of Big Mom would (in theory) become contested between other Yonkou. These territories would pretty much become semi-battlegrounds as Yonkou crews try and assert control over the island by removing/killing the opposing crew and causing collateral damage. For instance, say Big Mom died, and Whole Cake Island became up for grabs suddenly, then Kaidou and Blackbeard would hop in and attempt to assert control over that island, likely causing a ton of violent conflict.
Alternatively, one Yonkou would seamlessly slink in and nothing would really change, but that sort of relies on the temperament of the Yonkou and currently only Shanks doesn't seem to have a serious interest in aggressive expansion.
Now that isn't to say that Big Mom is necessarily GOOD, I mean the tribute demands and harsh punishment given to those who fail to adequately deliver tribute are pretty bad, but thats still more Lawful Evil then Chaotic Neutral. i dont think you understand how alignment works... she takes over countries purely based on the sweets/other food there capable of producing and basically hold the entire country hostage to force them to deliver the food, thats neutral evil its had to really say without a map of the new world and how the yonkou territories look but its unlikely Kaidou or Blackbeard have the forces to lay reasonable claim to a (presumably) large patch of ocean and considering Big Moms critea likely wouldnt want to its possible there would be more battles between Kaidou/Blackbeard (assuming they fight) since they have one less member in there "mexican standoff" but if we look at the bigger picture removing Big Moms reign of terror is much more likely to cause good events then bad ones We're not arguing about good or bad, we're arguing about whether or not chaos would ensue from a Yonkou power vacuum. Is an island being contested between two Yonkou not more chaotic than one being occupied by one Yonkou? Now I'm not trying to get into the nitty gritty of the Yonkou with regards to HOW they rule and their personalities, just the core concept of an island controlled by a single Yonkou is inherently less chaotic than one being contested by 2+ Yonkou. the question is how much of it would actually be contested though, Kaidou is gearing up for war, Blackbeard already has all of whitebeards old territory and has to worry about Marco and crew coming after him plus the WG wont like the fruit he now has (theres a reason they purposely baited WB into a war) how many troops do either of them really have to lay claim to a bunch of islands whos main value is producing delicious food? when it comes down to it we dont know what kind of manpower Kaidou and Blackbeard have sitting idle but imo if Big Moms crew disapeared i dont think the vacuum would get filled very fast, taking out Big mom would be the same as taking out more then one quarter of pirates in the new world (since seems like Shanks doesnt have a big crew) it wouldnt be easy to lay claim to the area she controls even for a yonkou since they may even have trouble keeping the territory they have now properly claimed
You're jumping the shark here, ignore all of this stuff, this is stuff we get into after we debate the following premise:
Is an island controlled by a single Yonkou less chaotic than one contested by 2+ Yonkou?
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Is an island controlled by a single Yonkou less chaotic than one contested by 2+ Yonkou?
is freeing 99 islands worth having one island contested by 2+ yonkou?
theres no point contesting an island if you destroy it in the process most of the fighting would be on ships
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Answer the question, its a really simple one, you have A, B or C.
Is an island controlled by a single Yonkou less chaotic than one contested by 2+ Yonkou?
a. An island controlled by a single Yonkou is less chaotic than one contested by 2+ Yonkou.
b. An island contested by 2+ Yonkou is less chaotic than one controlled by a single Yonkou.
c. An island controlled by a single Yonkou is as chaotic as one contested by 2+ Yonkou.
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On June 20 2016 23:25 Zambrah wrote:
Answer the question, its a really simple one, you have A, B or C.
Is an island controlled by a single Yonkou less chaotic than one contested by 2+ Yonkou?
a. An island controlled by a single Yonkou is less chaotic than one contested by 2+ Yonkou.
b. An island contested by 2+ Yonkou is less chaotic than one controlled by a single Yonkou.
c. An island controlled by a single Yonkou is as chaotic as one contested by 2+ Yonkou.
this is ridiculous your just oversimplifying a complex situation to there point where your adding nothing to the conversation
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Its really simple, I'm boiling down this complex situation to it's bones because this is where we start, if we start off arguing about every last thing we don't know (and make no mistake we don't really understand the territorial boundaries and crew sizes enough to argue in a factual manner) then we're going to be arguing over one another and nothing is going to happen.
You said that a Yonkou's control didnt' provide more order to an island than if it weren't under a specific Yonkou's control, I'd like to argue from the core of this point and move outwards rather than beginning with every unknown variable that we have no way to verify. Start with concepts and move outwards building from evidence we can acquire to the best of our abilities from reliable sources.
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On June 21 2016 00:42 Zambrah wrote:
Its really simple, I'm boiling down this complex situation to it's bones because this is where we start, if we start off arguing about every last thing we don't know (and make no mistake we don't really understand the territorial boundaries and crew sizes enough to argue in a factual manner) then we're going to be arguing over one another and nothing is going to happen.
You said that a Yonkou's control didnt' provide more order to an island than if it weren't under a specific Yonkou's control, I'd like to argue from the core of this point and move outwards rather than beginning with every unknown variable that we have no way to verify. Start with concepts and move outwards building from evidence we can acquire to the best of our abilities from reliable sources.
its pointless to discuss the most unimportant part of the situation as if it actually matters with such devotion the argument is not so massive and complicated that discussing it piece by piece in such a way is necesary
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On June 19 2016 10:31 Forikorder wrote:
if they wiped out Big Mam it wouldnt cause chaos becuase shes not really protecting jack shit and unlike Whitebeard is actively participating i territorial disputes so by removing a ton of pirates from the sea would create more order
Look, you wrote this, I challenge it, in particular I challenge the bolded.
You can argue the minute detail that you and I don't fully understand but thats not arguing to any gain. If we can at least start from a conceptual starting point we can clarify ourselves with a strong foundation to prevent the non stop misunderstandings due to talking past one another that occurs on TL daily. 
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Why are people assuming that the Islands under Big Mom's control would rather not be under her control? I'd say that overall, they have a good thing going. You could say they are forced to produce sweets and are therefore held hostage. Replace "sweets" with money, and how is that any different from having to pay taxes? You could say that Big Mom goes on crazy rampages. Her presence also keeps Islands under her dominion free from most Pirate Raids that would do the same thing, so it sounds to me like it balances out. You can describe her rule as being a reign of terror in the least. Aside from having to produce sweets for her, Fishman Island enjoyed her protection. Aside from the occasional avoidable rampage, Totland seems to be one of the happiest, freest, and most inclusive place we have yet seen in the Grand Line with practically no discrimination. Not to mention in her more closely held Islands, like Totland, are free from the World Government and their bullshit.
Big Mom's rule isn't benevolent or perfect by any means, but it isn't a reign of terror where people are constantly oppressed and live in fear. As long as Big Mom gets her food, its been portrayed that her Islands get to live in relative peace and security.
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On June 21 2016 00:55 Zambrah wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2016 10:31 Forikorder wrote:
if they wiped out Big Mam it wouldnt cause chaos becuase shes not really protecting jack shit and unlike Whitebeard is actively participating i territorial disputes so by removing a ton of pirates from the sea would create more order Look, you wrote this, I challenge it, in particular I challenge the bolded. You can argue the minute detail that you and I don't fully understand but thats not arguing to any gain. If we can at least start from a conceptual starting point we can clarify ourselves with a strong foundation to prevent the non stop misunderstandings due to talking past one another that occurs on TL daily.
. If we can at least start from a conceptual starting point
okay true or false
1. Kaidou is planning on starting a war with the WG
2. Big mom likely has territory equal to or greater then Kaidou and/or Blackbeard
3. Shanks likely has less territory/crew members then the other 3 yonkous based on what we have seen
4. Big Mom loves delicious sweets to the point where she conquers/destroys countries based solely on the production of them
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That sure is a whole lot of assumptions
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On June 21 2016 00:57 Sentenal wrote:
Why are people assuming that the Islands under Big Mom's control would rather not be under her control? I'd say that overall, they have a good thing going. You could say they are forced to produce sweets and are therefore held hostage. Replace "sweets" with money, and how is that any different from having to pay taxes? You could say that Big Mom goes on crazy rampages. Her presence also keeps Islands under her dominion free from most Pirate Raids that would do the same thing, so it sounds to me like it balances out. You can describe her rule as being a reign of terror in the least. Aside from having to produce sweets for her, Fishman Island enjoyed her protection. Aside from the occasional avoidable rampage, Totland seems to be one of the happiest, freest, and most inclusive place we have yet seen in the Grand Line with practically no discrimination. Not to mention in her more closely held Islands, like Totland, are free from the World Government and their bullshit.
Big Mom's rule isn't benevolent or perfect by any means, but it isn't a reign of terror where people are constantly oppressed and live in fear. As long as Big Mom gets her food, its been portrayed that her Islands get to live in relative peace and security.
what you said is extremely interesting, remind me of the concept of enlightened absolutism
yea i just quoted something from les lumières in a one piece thread haha
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On June 21 2016 00:57 Sentenal wrote:
Why are people assuming that the Islands under Big Mom's control would rather not be under her control? I'd say that overall, they have a good thing going. You could say they are forced to produce sweets and are therefore held hostage. Replace "sweets" with money, and how is that any different from having to pay taxes? You could say that Big Mom goes on crazy rampages. Her presence also keeps Islands under her dominion free from most Pirate Raids that would do the same thing, so it sounds to me like it balances out. You can describe her rule as being a reign of terror in the least. Aside from having to produce sweets for her, Fishman Island enjoyed her protection. Aside from the occasional avoidable rampage, Totland seems to be one of the happiest, freest, and most inclusive place we have yet seen in the Grand Line with practically no discrimination. Not to mention in her more closely held Islands, like Totland, are free from the World Government and their bullshit.
Big Mom's rule isn't benevolent or perfect by any means, but it isn't a reign of terror where people are constantly oppressed and live in fear. As long as Big Mom gets her food, its been portrayed that her Islands get to live in relative peace and security.
well first of all, Fishman island was under her protection and was recently almost completely destroyed
you could replace "sweets" with "money" i suppose but generally if someone fails to pay there taxes there entire country is not put to death for it, one mistake in the manufacturing would mean every single one of them died
and "occasional avoidable rampage" is not actually avoidable, at least not consistantly, shell crave something completely random and start slaughtering people until that craving is filled
the WG only causes bullshit when the Tenryuubito are involved, if you avoid them then you can live just fine in safety
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EPT
