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No, Tobirama didn't break it. He said he was going and instantly was restrained by Orochimaru once he tried to leave. Hashi was the only one in the hokage group that broke it somehow, and we don't know HOW he broke it. IT WAS NOT EXPLAINED. So you cannot make conclusions.
The only conclusion we CAN make is that orochi can control them, but he's giving them some freedom (allowing them to move around and keeping their personalities intact) but not complete freedom in the slightest, which is exactly what Kabuto does - he allows them freedom but forces their bodies to move or not, for example he made itachi and nagato fight naruto and B. They even were telling naruto to look out and shit, but they had 0 control of their bodies. I can even get you the pages for proof if you'd like, since you tend to say stuff and just not even back up anything with any facts at all.
Please stop just randomly stating shit you made up as undeniable fact. It's gotten you banned before already and it's reallyyy annoying.
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Kind of an unrelated question, but I was rereading zabuza arc... are they ever going to do anything about jutsu with 1 hand, or even none? Haku was supposed to be a genius because of it, but it hasn't been mentioned since.
Back to the present. How are the old ninja so damn strong? You'd think that with each new generation, they'd be getting stronger (developing/improving techniques). I thought the Raikage (probably prime of his life) was strong, but the kage before him in addition to all the hokage seem to overshadow him. For comparison's sake:
Sasuke faced the Raikage head on, almost killed him (maybe, damn you Gaara). Sasuke has a heart attack the instant The Second getting pissed off.
I don't think Sasuke (or anyone else) is needed to stop Madara. Just send the first second and third in there. If I remember correctly, the Third was stronger than the first in his prime, so with infinite chakra he should be pretty strong even in his state.
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On February 14 2013 15:06 Dark_Chill wrote:
Kind of an unrelated question, but I was rereading zabuza arc... are they ever going to do anything about jutsu with 1 hand, or even none? Haku was supposed to be a genius because of it, but it hasn't been mentioned since.
Back to the present. How are the old ninja so damn strong? You'd think that with each new generation, they'd be getting stronger (developing/improving techniques). I thought the Raikage (probably prime of his life) was strong, but the kage before him in addition to all the hokage seem to overshadow him. For comparison's sake:
Sasuke faced the Raikage head on, almost killed him (maybe, damn you Gaara). Sasuke has a heart attack the instant The Second getting pissed off.
I don't think Sasuke (or anyone else) is needed to stop Madara. Just send the first second and third in there. If I remember correctly, the Third was stronger than the first in his prime, so with infinite chakra he should be pretty strong even in his state.
The Third was never stronger than the First. You're simply falling in the most common pitfall for Shounen, Hype and Feats/Capabilities. Hiruzen is almost entirely all hype, with little impressive showings because of his age. The First is a combination of both hype and feats
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Kind of an unrelated question, but I was rereading zabuza arc... are they ever going to do anything about jutsu with 1 hand, or even none? Haku was supposed to be a genius because of it, but it hasn't been mentioned since.
dude using hands for Jutsus is so passe everyone has at least one signless jutsu they can spam
No, Tobirama didn't break it. He said he was going and instantly was restrained by Orochimaru once he tried to leave. Hashi was the only one in the hokage group that broke it somehow, and we don't know HOW he broke it. IT WAS NOT EXPLAINED. So you cannot make conclusions.
The only conclusion we CAN make is that orochi can control them, but he's giving them some freedom (allowing them to move around and keeping their personalities intact) but not complete freedom in the slightest, which is exactly what Kabuto does - he allows them freedom but forces their bodies to move or not, for example he made itachi and nagato fight naruto and B. They even were telling naruto to look out and shit, but they had 0 control of their bodies. I can even get you the pages for proof if you'd like, since you tend to say stuff and just not even back up anything with any facts at all.
Please stop just randomly stating shit you made up as undeniable fact. It's gotten you banned before already and it's reallyyy annoying.
how it seemed to me was the 2nd decided he was going to leave, and fought agaisnt the Edo Tensei and won, thats why Oro made the sign because he had to reinforce it more to rpevent him from leaving
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On February 14 2013 13:15 chipmonklord17 wrote:
How did Hashirama know anything about Itachi? Didn't he die before Itachi was even born? He calls Itachi a splendid ninja yet doesn't know who the 4th was.
Huh yeah that's a really good point
I have no idea...
The 4th is both older and more reputable than Itachi...
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On February 14 2013 15:06 Dark_Chill wrote:
Kind of an unrelated question, but I was rereading zabuza arc... are they ever going to do anything about jutsu with 1 hand, or even none? Haku was supposed to be a genius because of it, but it hasn't been mentioned since.
Back to the present. How are the old ninja so damn strong? You'd think that with each new generation, they'd be getting stronger (developing/improving techniques). I thought the Raikage (probably prime of his life) was strong, but the kage before him in addition to all the hokage seem to overshadow him. For comparison's sake:
Sasuke faced the Raikage head on, almost killed him (maybe, damn you Gaara). Sasuke has a heart attack the instant The Second getting pissed off.
I don't think Sasuke (or anyone else) is needed to stop Madara. Just send the first second and third in there. If I remember correctly, the Third was stronger than the first in his prime, so with infinite chakra he should be pretty strong even in his state.
Well, a lot of the older ninja technically were at war almost all to most of their lives, so that might have something to do with it. Hashi + Madara are special cases too because they're sage descendants and are "meant" to be strong. I also think part of it is hype. Like you hear how the first was the god of shinobi, 2nd was so amazing, 3rd was the best, 4th was such a genius etcetc but it's more like "best of their time" and that people tend to make legends out of those who are top tier. Just look at real life for examples like that.
And I'm still unsure if even the 4 kages together could beat zombie Madara, since zombie Madara is Madara + the 1st together essentially after Kabuto's tinkering. We have no idea of how strong everyone really is. DBZ made actual "power levels" so we could understand the strengths of people, but Naruto has nothing like that. It's just "he was a god" and "omg you're a genius." x_x
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On February 14 2013 15:23 BlackPaladin wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2013 15:06 Dark_Chill wrote:
Kind of an unrelated question, but I was rereading zabuza arc... are they ever going to do anything about jutsu with 1 hand, or even none? Haku was supposed to be a genius because of it, but it hasn't been mentioned since.
Back to the present. How are the old ninja so damn strong? You'd think that with each new generation, they'd be getting stronger (developing/improving techniques). I thought the Raikage (probably prime of his life) was strong, but the kage before him in addition to all the hokage seem to overshadow him. For comparison's sake:
Sasuke faced the Raikage head on, almost killed him (maybe, damn you Gaara). Sasuke has a heart attack the instant The Second getting pissed off.
I don't think Sasuke (or anyone else) is needed to stop Madara. Just send the first second and third in there. If I remember correctly, the Third was stronger than the first in his prime, so with infinite chakra he should be pretty strong even in his state. Well, a lot of the older ninja technically were at war almost all to most of their lives, so that might have something to do with it. Hashi + Madara are special cases too because they're sage descendants and are "meant" to be strong. I also think part of it is hype. Like you hear how the first was the god of shinobi, 2nd was so amazing, 3rd was the best, 4th was such a genius etcetc but it's more like "best of their time" and that people tend to make legends out of those who are top tier. Just look at real life for examples like that. And I'm still unsure if even the 4 kages together could beat zombie Madara, since zombie Madara is Madara + the 1st together essentially after Kabuto's tinkering. We have no idea of how strong everyone really is. DBZ made actual "power levels" so we could understand the strengths of people, but Naruto has nothing like that. It's just "he was a god" and "omg you're a genius." x_x
i think Hashirama is stong enough to at least force Madara to handle him alone (as in make Madara unable to focus on anyone else) and then with the second, third and fourth theyd be able to seal him
i wonder how happens if someone uses the reaper death seal while an edo tensie zombie
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On February 14 2013 15:19 Forikorder wrote:http://mangastream.com/read/naruto/12558312/9if you guys are talking about this page he only saids that after Sasuke explains everything about Itachi and i get the vibe Hashi is talking like he doesnt know Itachi at all
Exactly, he's merely saying that because he heard how Itachi sacrificed everything in life for the sake of the village and to protect it from harm. Why wouldn't the 1st, the guy who started the village be gracious for that. I got the vibe too that he was simply stating he was a good ninja for his ideals, not that he knew him personally or anything.
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On February 14 2013 15:15 Forikorder wrote:
how it seemed to me was the 2nd decided he was going to leave, and fought agaisnt the Edo Tensei and won, thats why Oro made the sign because he had to reinforce it more to rpevent him from leaving
I'm pretty sure that any time the jutsu user changes how much they are controlling (i.e. personality but no bodily free will => full control) they make some sort of handsign and manipulate chakra. That was how Kabuto acted anyway. As it stood, Orochimaru had left them full control over their bodies and over their personalities (because in the lore they are more effective that way) but when the 2nd decided to leave Orochimaru changed the control. It affected everyone, and only the first broke it.
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On February 14 2013 15:33 Foblos wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2013 15:15 Forikorder wrote:
how it seemed to me was the 2nd decided he was going to leave, and fought agaisnt the Edo Tensei and won, thats why Oro made the sign because he had to reinforce it more to rpevent him from leaving I'm pretty sure that any time the jutsu user changes how much they are controlling (i.e. personality but no bodily free will => full control) they make some sort of handsign and manipulate chakra. That was how Kabuto acted anyway. As it stood, Orochimaru had left them full control over their bodies and over their personalities (because in the lore they are more effective that way) but when the 2nd decided to leave Orochimaru changed the control. It affected everyone, and only the first broke it.
your wrong in at elast some regard, Orochimaru said that the first had been moving on his own will for quite some time so he must have had some sort of restriction on them before the 2nd tried to leave (considering hes in the same room as the Yellow Flash hed HAVE to)
http://www.mangareader.net/naruto/620/11
you can notice in the last panel it seems like the Third is trying to leave but cant but Tobirama easily waltz over the wall
http://mangastream.com/read/naruto/12558312/13
also based on the 2nds dialogue in this chapter it seems that the way to "break" edo tensei is imply be stronger then the user by enough to overpower his commands
which also explains why he didnt break it the first time he came back, and why the 1st and 2nd were such chumps then because Oro used an incomplete Edo Tensei to bring them back so they didnt come back nearly as strong as they were normally
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So many awesome characters in 1 room lol. I hope they work some stuff in for the 4th. He kinda is sitting back taking it all in. Right now Zombie Madara is probably many times stronger then he ever was while living so logically it follows that the 1st alone would not be able to beat him. Still the 4 hokages working together I don't see losing to anyone if they fought together.
I also kind of like this revival of them because it explains why they were pretty meh back when they were 1st shown (though imo when he originally wrote that they weren't "super OP mother fuckers" so they were toned down at that point). Thats the ONE thing that is meh for me. The earlier generations powers were played down because the theme was "new gen always surpasses the old" but now since he created super Madara Kishi had no choice but to scale them.
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On February 14 2013 15:45 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2013 15:33 Foblos wrote:On February 14 2013 15:15 Forikorder wrote:
how it seemed to me was the 2nd decided he was going to leave, and fought agaisnt the Edo Tensei and won, thats why Oro made the sign because he had to reinforce it more to rpevent him from leaving I'm pretty sure that any time the jutsu user changes how much they are controlling (i.e. personality but no bodily free will => full control) they make some sort of handsign and manipulate chakra. That was how Kabuto acted anyway. As it stood, Orochimaru had left them full control over their bodies and over their personalities (because in the lore they are more effective that way) but when the 2nd decided to leave Orochimaru changed the control. It affected everyone, and only the first broke it. your wrong in at elast some regard, Orochimaru said that the first had been moving on his own will for quite some time so he must have had some sort of restriction on them before the 2nd tried to leave (considering hes in the same room as the Yellow Flash hed HAVE to) http://www.mangareader.net/naruto/620/11you can notice in the last panel it seems like the Third is trying to leave but cant but Tobirama easily waltz over the wall http://mangastream.com/read/naruto/12558312/13also based on the 2nds dialogue in this chapter it seems that the way to "break" edo tensei is imply be stronger then the user by enough to overpower his commands which also explains why he didnt break it the first time he came back, and why the 1st and 2nd were such chumps then because Oro used an incomplete Edo Tensei to bring them back so they didnt come back nearly as strong as they were normally
Your link didn't work, but I'm pretty sure I'm looking at the same page on a different reader. (http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/620/11)
I don't think that is the case though. I think that if the pannel artist(s) wanted to make that clear, which they probably would, Orochimaru would have been shown first setting them in place for Sasuke's conversation, but didn't.
I think it is possible that Orochimaru may have put a small amount of chakra in the jutsu to keep them from being able to instantly attack/kill and that may have been overcome, but when Orochimaru actually does the hand signs he isn't concerned at all. Rather, he is quite pleased with himself and doesn't look as though he is exerting any effort at all. He doesn't begin to look concerned at all until the first breaks control, but even then it is a look that doesn't indicate fear. If the second had easily broken the jutsu I should think he would look differently.
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On February 14 2013 15:12 Dakkas wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2013 15:06 Dark_Chill wrote:
Kind of an unrelated question, but I was rereading zabuza arc... are they ever going to do anything about jutsu with 1 hand, or even none? Haku was supposed to be a genius because of it, but it hasn't been mentioned since.
Back to the present. How are the old ninja so damn strong? You'd think that with each new generation, they'd be getting stronger (developing/improving techniques). I thought the Raikage (probably prime of his life) was strong, but the kage before him in addition to all the hokage seem to overshadow him. For comparison's sake:
Sasuke faced the Raikage head on, almost killed him (maybe, damn you Gaara). Sasuke has a heart attack the instant The Second getting pissed off.
I don't think Sasuke (or anyone else) is needed to stop Madara. Just send the first second and third in there. If I remember correctly, the Third was stronger than the first in his prime, so with infinite chakra he should be pretty strong even in his state. The Third was never stronger than the First. You're simply falling in the most common pitfall for Shounen, Hype and Feats/Capabilities. Hiruzen is almost entirely all hype, with little impressive showings because of his age. The First is a combination of both hype and feats
Well the third was awesome back when Jutsu mattered. Tactically strong and well rounded like kakashi. He did manage to handle Orochimaru with the summoned 1st and 2nd at an old age.
Rewatching the orochimaru fight.He's the one who created the shadowclone jutsu without a jinchuriiki to power him so he was probably a chakra fiend like mr shark.
Unfortunately when the manga began to focus on unique bloodline traits it naturally devolved resulting in legends with amazing techniques becoming greater than their successors.
that said it's what we have now and I am excited to see the fourth and now even the first play around.
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On February 14 2013 17:30 Sabu113 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2013 15:12 Dakkas wrote:On February 14 2013 15:06 Dark_Chill wrote:
Kind of an unrelated question, but I was rereading zabuza arc... are they ever going to do anything about jutsu with 1 hand, or even none? Haku was supposed to be a genius because of it, but it hasn't been mentioned since.
Back to the present. How are the old ninja so damn strong? You'd think that with each new generation, they'd be getting stronger (developing/improving techniques). I thought the Raikage (probably prime of his life) was strong, but the kage before him in addition to all the hokage seem to overshadow him. For comparison's sake:
Sasuke faced the Raikage head on, almost killed him (maybe, damn you Gaara). Sasuke has a heart attack the instant The Second getting pissed off.
I don't think Sasuke (or anyone else) is needed to stop Madara. Just send the first second and third in there. If I remember correctly, the Third was stronger than the first in his prime, so with infinite chakra he should be pretty strong even in his state. The Third was never stronger than the First. You're simply falling in the most common pitfall for Shounen, Hype and Feats/Capabilities. Hiruzen is almost entirely all hype, with little impressive showings because of his age. The First is a combination of both hype and feats Well the third was awesome back when Jutsu mattered. Tactically strong and well rounded like kakashi. He did manage to handle Orochimaru with the summoned 1st and 2nd at an old age. Unfortunately when the manga began to focus on unique bloodline traits it naturally devolved resulting in legends with amazing techniques becoming greater than their successors. that said it's what we have now and I am excited to see the fourth and now even the first play around.
That's not what happened exactly, Orochimary was playing around with the Third. Also Shodai and Nidaime weren't at full power. Did Third do an excellent job given the circumstance? Yes. Could he had really have lasted that long against those three if they were going all-out at full power? No, only Rikodou Sennin could
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calling it now sasuke will fight the 1st hokage. it equalizes with naruto having to fight madara
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On February 14 2013 15:25 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2013 15:23 BlackPaladin wrote:On February 14 2013 15:06 Dark_Chill wrote:
Kind of an unrelated question, but I was rereading zabuza arc... are they ever going to do anything about jutsu with 1 hand, or even none? Haku was supposed to be a genius because of it, but it hasn't been mentioned since.
Back to the present. How are the old ninja so damn strong? You'd think that with each new generation, they'd be getting stronger (developing/improving techniques). I thought the Raikage (probably prime of his life) was strong, but the kage before him in addition to all the hokage seem to overshadow him. For comparison's sake:
Sasuke faced the Raikage head on, almost killed him (maybe, damn you Gaara). Sasuke has a heart attack the instant The Second getting pissed off.
I don't think Sasuke (or anyone else) is needed to stop Madara. Just send the first second and third in there. If I remember correctly, the Third was stronger than the first in his prime, so with infinite chakra he should be pretty strong even in his state. Well, a lot of the older ninja technically were at war almost all to most of their lives, so that might have something to do with it. Hashi + Madara are special cases too because they're sage descendants and are "meant" to be strong. I also think part of it is hype. Like you hear how the first was the god of shinobi, 2nd was so amazing, 3rd was the best, 4th was such a genius etcetc but it's more like "best of their time" and that people tend to make legends out of those who are top tier. Just look at real life for examples like that. And I'm still unsure if even the 4 kages together could beat zombie Madara, since zombie Madara is Madara + the 1st together essentially after Kabuto's tinkering. We have no idea of how strong everyone really is. DBZ made actual "power levels" so we could understand the strengths of people, but Naruto has nothing like that. It's just "he was a god" and "omg you're a genius." x_x i think Hashirama is stong enough to at least force Madara to handle him alone (as in make Madara unable to focus on anyone else) and then with the second, third and fourth theyd be able to seal him i wonder how happens if someone uses the reaper death seal while an edo tensie zombie
The same which always happens, you seal the target and yourself in the belly of the death god.
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On February 14 2013 15:15 frogmelter wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2013 13:15 chipmonklord17 wrote:
How did Hashirama know anything about Itachi? Didn't he die before Itachi was even born? He calls Itachi a splendid ninja yet doesn't know who the 4th was. Huh yeah that's a really good point I have no idea... The 4th is both older and more reputable than Itachi...
He was told indirectly when sasuke asked the third about itachi, sheesh guys
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On February 14 2013 17:44 iKill[ShocK] wrote:
calling it now sasuke will fight the 1st hokage. it equalizes with naruto having to fight madara
yeah right, sasuke against 1st hokage at first power isn't even a fight. madara at his peak without hashi's cell, lost to hashirama in an epic battle, sasuke right now in no way or form can keep up against that.
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Don't know why nearly everyone mentioned Hashirama breakin the Edo-Tensei, Orochimaru merely mentioned that since reviving them he was the only one thats been moving on his own and that he should be careful with him.
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