EPT[TV/BOOK] *SPOILERS* Game of Thrones Discussion - Page 389
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SPOILER WARNING If you only watch the show, this thread will spoil you of future events in HBO's Game of Thrones. Thread contains discussion of all books of the series A Song of Ice and Fire Click Here for the spoiler-free thread. | ||
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spacer
Netherlands2786 Posts
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
On June 11 2013 09:25 VasHeR wrote: There's a lot of things about the show that have made no sense to me and I've been assured the books make more sense. Someone plz help me with this one thing for now.. I don't understand why Khaleesi out of nowhere suddenly decided that her cause is to free all the slaves etc... I think also from a readers standpoint most people would agree that Daenerys is one of the more stereotypical characters in the books. I don't think there's that much more to it than you already mentioned. She got enslaved by her brother, was always very just, hates wrong kings because she also thinks the iron throne is hers and that's basically it i guess. I might be a bit biased here because i don't like her character very much. I always felt like Daenerys was GRRM's 'Girl next Door' because she pulls moves that are even bolder than Ned's and she always does get away with it and basically no one dies or suffers no matter how much she screws it up. Not even considering that Essos is inhabited by even more dangerous and shady guys than Westeros is. | ||
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Irrelevant Label
United States596 Posts
On June 11 2013 09:25 VasHeR wrote: There's a lot of things about the show that have made no sense to me and I've been assured the books make more sense. Someone plz help me with this one thing for now.. I don't understand why Khaleesi out of nowhere suddenly decided that her cause is to free all the slaves etc. I saw on some director commentary after the episode on demand that their reasoning is that she had been treated as a slave by her brother, which seems like a kinda weak connection and the timing of this motivation seems worse than random. She saved that group of people from the whims of the Khal (or whatever those people are called, Khal Drogo's warriors) and she trusted that woman to heal her husband and that bitch betrayed her. Then, right after that, she's like "Hey, I should go free more slaves." Wtf....? Nothing she's done in the entire series so far (again, just TV) has seemed even remotely relevant, important, coherent, etc... I don't mind spoilers obviously She isn't exactly rational in the books either. It is more flushed out so that the reader can understand what she is thinking, but what she is thinking isn't very reasonable or well supported by fact. She is arguably a little mad-ish; greatness and madness being the same thing just depending on the perception of the observer, and regarding success vs failure, etc. This anti-slavery thing is, as you suspect, a bit of a dumb side-track she gets on after taking her Unsullied army in an act of emancipation. She has a certain altruistic sense for wanting to help "innocent people" which allows for it, but it doesn't make sense with her main goal of taking the Iron Throne. Nor does she actually have much of a sense of how to actually help people, what with simply trampling the economies of half the world with this pause in the slave trade. She is naive. On the other hand her reasons for her primary goal are a bit dubious as well. It seems to have simply been drilled into her that resuming the Targaryen dynasty is her duty and rule is her birthright. It is also propped along by the "win or die" principle which has caused her to be hunted her whole life. She needs to kill her enemies because they are out for her. Maybe that is enough. In any case, not much other thought went into establishing that goal. She wants to go "home", yet home isn't actually Westeros for her what with never having been there. Usually around this point people start talking about entitlement or greed, and this is true. It is also true of nearly every noble in the story and certainly all the big "mover and shaker" types, so it is hard to say that her sense of entitlement/greed holds any meaning in the context of this story. | ||
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VasHeR
166 Posts
On June 11 2013 10:16 Irrelevant Label wrote: She isn't exactly rational in the books either. It is more flushed out so that the reader can understand what she is thinking, but what she is thinking isn't very reasonable or well supported by fact. She is arguably a little mad-ish; greatness and madness being the same thing just depending on the perception of the observer, and regarding success vs failure, etc. This anti-slavery thing is, as you suspect, a bit of a dumb side-track she gets on after taking her Unsullied army in an act of emancipation. She has a certain altruistic sense for wanting to help "innocent people" which allows for it, but it doesn't make sense with her main goal of taking the Iron Throne. Nor does she actually have much of a sense of how to actually help people, what with simply trampling the economies of half the world with this pause in the slave trade. She is naive. On the other hand her reasons for her primary goal are a bit dubious as well. It seems to have simply been drilled into her that resuming the Targaryen dynasty is her duty and rule is her birthright. It is also propped along by the "win or die" principle which has caused her to be hunted her whole life. She needs to kill her enemies because they are out for her. Maybe that is enough. In any case, not much other thought went into establishing that goal. She wants to go "home", yet home to her isn't actually Westeros for her what with never having been there. Usually around this point people start talking about entitlement or greed, and this is true. It is also true of nearly every noble in the story and certainly all the big "mover and shaker" types, so it is hard to say that her sense of entitlement/greed holds any meaning in the context of this story. thx, and congrats on your four hundred twentieth post | ||
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TheRealPaciFist
United States1049 Posts
On June 10 2013 19:27 Vindicare605 wrote: I wouldn't call him smarter necessarily. He has the benefit of being involved in a straight up war where he knows he cant trust anyone. Ned was soft, complacent in his closeness to Robert. The war hadn't started so he let his guard down just enough to get his head cut off. Stannis knows the game is already in full swing, that's why he's lived as long as he has. Although I very much doubt he'll be alive for long once Book 6 gets going, his march on Winterfell was fucking suicidal and definitely more an act of desperation than being smart. Good point. On June 10 2013 20:16 Redox wrote: I am totally confused by how people dont like the Stannis portrayal. I think the actor is perfect, and its overall very much on point. Yeah Renly's portrayal was weak, but Stannis not at all. edit: Maybe its this? People desperately want him to be the good guy or something? In the books, for me, he could go either way. He's a good guy, at least in his own eyes and the eyes of Davos, but he might be making bad decisions with the Red Lady, might not be the right man for the throne if he's too prickly and can't inspire his own people, might be a puritanical asshole... or he might be the one guy who gives a shit enough about the realm to actually bother to help out the Wall. My point is he's interesting. And in the show he's just lame. On June 10 2013 20:28 Doctorbeat wrote: Easily solved. Make Sansa+Tyrion get closer to eachother (they already are in the show), maybe start to fall in love, Shae gets jealous and betrays Tyrion at his trial and proceeds to sleep with Tywin. It's not better than the original, but it can work and it's nowhere near as much of a big deal as the character assassination of Stannis in his last scene. Book Stannis had difficulties sending Edric Storm to the slaughter because of his extremely rigid moral system. In the show he shrugs Gendry's death off his shoulders. Tyrion pays Shae to be his whore and to be his dream, even though he knows the entire time it's just for gold Tyrion then discovers that the one woman who he ever believed loved him, Tysha, was not a whore, and his father is a lying bastard who stole his love from him And he's also a hypocritical bastards who sleeps with whores himself Is waaaaaay more powerful than Oh no, Shae you loved me, but now you've betrayed me! How could you? Pobrecito yo! But I agree, it's not a character assassination, more of a plot kick-in-the-face. Unlike Stannis. On June 10 2013 20:30 OneThreeOne wrote: If she truly loves Tyrion, wouldn't she have followed Varys' advice and left? The show may reveal that she has been Tywin's bitch from the get go. But if she's a whore, why not take the diamonds and go? On June 10 2013 21:07 sickle wrote: Go re-read the chapters. Stannis is in no way Melisandre's lapdog. Many many times she and the other fanatics try to persuade Stannis to sacrifice the boy but he doesn't. He is also an outspoken atheist who always made japes about being surrounding by fanatics. Always being sceptical and conflicted about the Lord of Light and its powers. And only after the THIRD usurper died Davos sent the boy away, and then persuaded Stannis himself of his duty - by in-depth discussion, of his duty, Davos said that by killing the boy Stannis would be in breach of the duty of the King to protect his subjects. In the show you get none of that, absolutely nothing. Instead only one usurper falls and already Stannis wants the boy killed. All Stannis does is puppet what Mel says, which is a spit in the face of his book counterpart. This is how it went down in the show: Stannis: Davos, I sentence u to die Davos: no we must go north Stannis: no u die Mel: no hes right Stannis: ok u live This is extremely patronizing. Why shit all over such a pivotal scene instead of using the wealth of GOOD dialogue and material from the books? Nor in the book does he ever get angry like he does in that scene. If anything he just gets perpetually more aggravated and grinds his teeth. In a rage, ordering Davos to death is the complete opposite of Stannis. Davos says it when he had his fingers cut off all Stannis had was an iron look of justice. On June 10 2013 21:25 Doctorbeat wrote: I'm quoting from the book here, just after Davos was taken out of prison (even before the leech sacrifice). That entire chapter shows how wrong the show portrayal is, but I'll just quote the bit where Stannis talks about Edric Storm: "Give me the boy, Your Grace. It is the surer way. The better way. Give me the boy and I shall wake the stone dragon." "I have told you, no." "He is only one baseborn boy, against all the boys of Westeros, and all the girls aswell. Against all the children that might ever be born, in all the kingdoms of the world." "The boy is innocent." "The boy defiled your marriage bed, else you would surely have sons of your own. He shamed you." "Robert did that. Not the boy. My daughter has grown fond of him. And he is mine own blood." "Your brother's blood," Melisandre said. "A king's blood. Only a king's blood can wake the stone dragon." Stannis ground his teeth. "I'll hear no more of this. The dragons are gone. The Targaryens tried to bring them back half a dozen times. And made fools of themselves, or corpses. Patchface is the only fool we need on this godforsaken rock. You have the leeches. Do your work." In the next Davos chapter, after they hear of the Red Wedding and Balon's death, Stannis is still extremely skeptical of the Red God's power. "Two is not three. Kings can count as well as smugglers." Davos saves Edric Storm not because of the sacrifice to gain the throne, but the sacrifice to become Azor Ahai. And later in the next chapter, Stannis still struggles with the prospect of killing the boy: "I know his name. Spare me your reproaches. I like this no more than you do, but my duty is to the realm. My duty . . ." He turned back to Melisandre. "You swear there is no other way? Swear it on your life, for I promise, you shall die by the inches if you lie." And after finding out Davos saved Edric: "Your Grace, you made me swear to give you honest counsel and swift obedience, to defend your realm against your foes, to protect your people. Is not Edric Storm one of your people? One of those I swore to protect? I kept my oath. How could that be treason?" Later on in ADWD Stannis reflects to Jon about how Davos was right. On June 11 2013 03:29 GGTeMpLaR wrote: You're wrong to say Stannis forsake the seven for the Red God. It's made clear in the epilogue of ACOK that Stannis stopped believing in the gods the day his parents died outside Storm's End as their ship sank to the sea upon returning home from Essos. He is very cynical about it and doesn't believe any gods could be so cruel as to do that. I might not call him an "atheist", maybe an "agnostic" but that's not really an important argument here and you get the point. Stannis doesn't follow the Red God, he finds Melisandre useful. It's a pragmatic decision. He values her council as a consequence but definitely doesn't follow her blindly. He even goes so far as to make death threats if she is wrong (and why else if he isn't still skeptical). A large portion of his power comes from soldiers and vassals who DO believe in the Red God and so he needs her. Even if he doesn't necessarily believe himself, he knows he must play some minor courtesies of the Game of Thrones even if he hates them. Throughout Davos chapters it's made pretty clear Stannis is surrounded by yes-men and he despises it, but he needs them. Perhaps you should read the Davos chapters from ACOK as well because show-Stannis is definitely a completely different character than book-Stannis. Stannis is intelligent, skeptical, cynical, just, hard, merciless, and committed to his duty. In the show, he's portrayed as desperate, ambitious, selfish, fanatical, and pussywhipped. If book Stannis had watched tonight's episode, he would have executed show Stannis for injustice. It's horrible. On a side note, I also hate how they seem to portray Davos as having only one son. Davos lost three sons but still has his wife and two or three living sons after the Battle of the Blackwater. Thank you three On June 10 2013 23:09 Requizen wrote: That would be really, really dumb. They've done some dumb shit to the show so far, but that I would legit stop watching if they fucked up Tyrion's arc like that. I'd haveta keep watching it 'cause I'll be watching with friends -.- lol On June 11 2013 00:08 Mafe wrote: Perfect cliffhanger for me would be catelyn getting fished out of the water, then showing it's infact the resurrection guy who found her. Would've been nice, but I guess deciding how the corpse looks would determine how Stoneheart looks, which they're probably not ready to settle on yet (is she going to need CGI for her decayed state, or just make-up?) On June 11 2013 02:25 Redox wrote: They probably just took what kind of people were around in Morocco where they were filming. No reason to worry about something as stupid as race. This is a little irrelevant because I agree that the depiction of slavers bay is not a big deal, but I wanted to point out that not worrying about something "as stupid as race" is what lets the dominant race unknowingly stifle multiculturalism. On June 11 2013 03:12 craz3d wrote: It makes perfect sense: Shae is a really skillful and smart prostitute. On June 11 2013 03:55 N3rV[Green] wrote: I still don't understand why more people don't think Shae is employed by Tywin in the first place. Tywin, knowing that his son has a love for whores, makes sure Shae runs into Tyrion at the war camp with the instructions of reporting to him whatever Tyrion does/says/writes/whathaveyou. I felt like finding Shae in Tywin's bed was damn near proof of it. So of course she wouldn't want to leave, she is in no danger at all if she is actually working under Tywin's orders. ...huh. Possible. But I don't think it's likely. But it's something to hope for On June 11 2013 04:07 Requizen wrote: There's another idea to follow then - what if Shae just wants to see Tyrion suffer? Think of it this way: She despises Tyrion for keeping her around but hiding her, for calling her his lady while still treating her like a whore he needs to hide. He basically sells her into slavery to Sansa, she's used as a spy for however many people and thrust into an insane and potentially dangerous life in Kings Landing, as compared to her relatively normal life as a camp follower. And who is to blame for all that? That's right, Tyrion, because he wanted to drag her along to spite his father. That's why she's sticking around. Varys wants her to leave so Tyrion can survive and do what needs to be done, Shae wants to stay and fuck up his life as much as he fucked up hers. That's why she betrays him during his trial, and ultimately ends up in Tywin's bed - as a final slap to Tyrion's pride. I don't think Book!Shae was this manipulative, but considering what we've seen about Show!Shae, she could very well end up as a conniving woman who just wants revenge of a sorts. Now I'm just getting confused. lol. | ||
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itkovian
United States1763 Posts
On June 11 2013 10:04 spacer wrote: ITT: I don't like the show, cause it's not 100% like the books Well, that, and its not really a good show. Honestly. Game of Thrones is not a good show. Its got acting thats all over the place in quality. A script thats all over the place in quality. And the shallow skimmings off the top of a novel that is made great by its detail. In ten seconds I could think of ten other tv shows that are better than GoT. In twenty seconds, I could think of twenty more. The only reason the show is worth anything, is because its based of GRRM's plot, and because they have a few good actors. So when they deviate from the book plot, things tend to get a lot worse. And when they've run out of Tywin/Tyrion scenes, the acting loses its punch. The cinematography of the show is nothing creative. The way they shoot scenes and use music is pretty boring and predictable. The Dany scenes feel like a fucking joke. And she's one of the three most important characters in the series. The only consistently good part of the series is the intro. Which is terrific | ||
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armada[sb]
United States432 Posts
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itkovian
United States1763 Posts
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sickle
New Zealand656 Posts
On June 11 2013 10:04 spacer wrote: ITT: I don't like the show, cause it's not 100% like the books Thank you for your intelligent, well thought-out, well argued, contribution. | ||
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Partha
New Zealand163 Posts
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SupLilSon
Malaysia4123 Posts
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jinorazi
Korea (South)4948 Posts
or get raped, i dunno, shes starving and stuff "It was a cruel fate, Yet not so cruel as Mago's will be. I promise you that, by the old gods and the new, by the lamb god and the horse god and every god that lives. I swear by the Mother of Mountains and the Womb of the World. Before I am done with them, Mago and Ko Jhaqo will plead for the mercy they showed Eroeh." (my guess, jhaqo tries to show off, gets burned, dany takes over khalasar, marches to meereen and gets involved in the nick of time with what ser grandfather is doing) | ||
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Irrelevant Label
United States596 Posts
On June 11 2013 15:07 jinorazi wrote: in the book it ended with daenerys running into khal jhoqo, could winds of winter start with daenerys commanding drogon to wipe out his khalasar? and through that she goes full mad or mentally strong, or whatever grrm wants to do. or get raped, i dunno, shes starving and stuff "It was a cruel fate, Yet not so cruel as Mago's will be. I promise you that, by the old gods and the new, by the lamb god and the horse god and every god that lives. I swear by the Mother of Mountains and the Womb of the World. Before I am done with them, Mago and Ko Jhaqo will plead for the mercy they showed Eroeh." I expect Drogon suffices as a rape prevention measure. The last chapter is weird because 1. her mental state is pretty abnormal and 2. it has all the trappings of a somewhat life changing introspection period. I'm a fan of the idea that she comes out of it ready to burn things, but it's only a theory and could easily be wishful thinking on the part of those of us who were starting to dislike her after Meereen. Jhaqo is toast, but I expect it happens after the 'fade to back' at the end of the chapter and before the next Dany PoV chapter. Drogon is big enough to be ridiculously dangerous but he is nowhere near invincible, and she is more or less naked. She couldn't actually take on a whole Khalasar. Remember these are all guys with bows. Even against the few dozen with Jhaqo her key tool is that they seem to be in awe of what they see. I doubt she would wipe out a whole Khalasar even if she could. Give anyone among Jhaqo's Kos and the like who would rather die than follow a Khaleesi-Khal their wish and take the rest as her own. | ||
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boxerfred
Germany8360 Posts
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Domus
510 Posts
As for the Shae stuff, personally I think she is a bit puzzling in the show. She always looks pissed off. But anyone who thinks nothing dramatic will happen to her is wrong. The last episode gave a clear hint that if she sticks around bad things will happen to Tyrion and her. | ||
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SpikeStarcraft
Germany2095 Posts
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Domus
510 Posts
On June 11 2013 18:03 SpikeStarcraft wrote: My problem with the show is that almost every change i notice is so bad compared to the original and so unneccessary when you could just go with the book version. Most of the times they change the entire meaning then... I always want to blurt out... But... But... It wasnt like that, its no the way they make it look like There is just a lot wrong with such a statement because it is basic human behavior to: - Focus on flaws - Overlook improvements - Think of a second version/adaption as the non-authentic/lesser version. They have an extensive crew on this production that have probably read the books 10 times as often as you have. I think it is unlikely they are making changes unnecessarily, although you might disagree with their reasons or not know them. | ||
Olli
Austria24422 Posts
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Sablar
Sweden880 Posts
On June 11 2013 12:19 TheRealPaciFist wrote: If she truly loves Tyrion, wouldn't she have followed Varys' advice and left? The show may reveal that she has been Tywin's bitch from the get go. Maybe she got a better deal from Littlefingers also. I hope for something like that. It seems stupid for the writers to remove something as dramatic as Tyrion being betrayed before killing, but at the same time the show seems to be pretty straightforward and not really mislead the audience so who knows. | ||
disciple
9070 Posts
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