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1) Learn to control creep equilibrium properly. Especially against a solo offlaner. It makes your supports job x10 easier to zone the offlaner out when you can freeze the lane perfectly, and not be a noob that feeds the enemy offlaner free xp.
2) Know if your support knows what the fuck he is doing or not. If your support is a total retard, and just sits in lane, creates dbl wave or doesnt attempt to zone out the offllaner it is best to ask him to f off from lane completely and immediately if your 1v1 matchup isnt completely shit, so at least he can be useful somewhere else, and you wont get f in lane because of him because of him soaking xp, and being useless.
3) Know when you are strong enough alone against the underfarmed offlaner. This means that when you have a good feel that you can solo the lane, ask the supports to be useful somewhere else, instead of him sitting in lane and taking your xp.
4) In a free farm lane, always build items that allow you to zone the enemy offlaner out by yourself. There are countless times where I have seen AMs rush a BF, skipping treads PMS, whatever and then absolutely get bullied around in the lane by the enemy offlaner despite them having free farm for the first 5-6 mins when their supports leave. DO NOT LET THIS HAPPEN TO YOU. Build items that let you sustain farming, and have enough solo kill potential to deter any offlaner from getting anything in lane, with your farm advantage early when your supports leave.
5) Create double waves by yourself or ask the support to create a double wave for you when you want to push down the tower. Check the enemy mid before to see if he has a tp ready to know if you are safe to dive past the tower to zone the offlaner out of xp range under his tower when you are pushing
6)Always pull the following wave yourself or ask the support to pull the wave after downing the tier 1 tower. This will keep lane equilibruim on your side, of the map, and not allow the enemy offlaner to farm under or near their t2 tower, allowing them to get nothing.
7) Know what is your recovery options as the carry if your lane is completely shit. ie if i am playing as a PL, and my lane is completely shit, what I do is that i swallow my pride, get a mask of death and leave the lane completely to go and jungle and just let the supports tank the lane. It is slow and shit, but its better than you getting nothing.
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I play with an alt in 3k and I tell supports to fuck off when I know they're contributing nothing, they don't leave. 3ks aren't even human.
Also its a good idea to pick heroes that can go into jungle asap if you face unhelpful situations like that.
User was warned for this post
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Number 2 is the key to pubbing as a carry. Manage expectations boys, work with what you've got.
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On October 09 2015 22:13 gaijindash wrote:
Number 2 is the key to pubbing as a carry. Manage expectations boys, work with what you've got.
Personally I'm having a hard time attempting to micromanage people even in such a non-invasive fashion since I'd rather they fuck around than have them stop cooperating when the game requires it later.
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On October 09 2015 13:49 Kaj wrote:
2) Know if your support knows what the fuck he is doing or not. If your support is a total retard, and just sits in lane, creates dbl wave or doesnt attempt to zone out the offllaner it is best to ask him to f off from lane completely
Worst possible advice. Dota is a team game it is best to not start insulting your teammates.
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On October 10 2015 10:37 PuercoPop wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2015 13:49 Kaj wrote:
2) Know if your support knows what the fuck he is doing or not. If your support is a total retard, and just sits in lane, creates dbl wave or doesnt attempt to zone out the offllaner it is best to ask him to f off from lane completely
Worst possible advice. Dota is a team game it is best to not start insulting your teammates.
There are many ways to say "fuck off"; for instance: hey [insert name of support hero] I feel like I'll be fine on my own - you could rotate elsewhere and gank x/protect y/secure z/stack camps".
There's no reason to go out of your way to point out just how awful you perceive them to be.
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On October 10 2015 11:19 14CC wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2015 10:37 PuercoPop wrote:On October 09 2015 13:49 Kaj wrote:
2) Know if your support knows what the fuck he is doing or not. If your support is a total retard, and just sits in lane, creates dbl wave or doesnt attempt to zone out the offllaner it is best to ask him to f off from lane completely
Worst possible advice. Dota is a team game it is best to not start insulting your teammates. There are many ways to say "fuck off"; for instance: hey [insert name of support hero] I feel like I'll be fine on my own - you could rotate elsewhere and gank x/protect y/secure z/stack camps". There's no reason to go out of your way to point out just how awful you perceive them to be.
Agreed. Especially when you're likely just as awful but just don't realize it.
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Flaming never works, that said, you are right, if supports aren't helping lane, telling them to go stack or gank mid politely can be a good idea.
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As for #4 - building items that let you sustain farming; bully the offlaner - can someone speak to some examples and exactly why?
You indicated building a BF isn't a great, however doesn't that allow you to farm better, it gives dmg and regen, isn't that allowing you to also stay in lane longer?
As I am still fairly new to dota (about 6 months in - somewhere around 800 matches) when people make statements sometimes I don't always understand the WHY. So I like to analyse. Thanks!
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He listed the alternatives in the statement. Instead of trying to go naked battlefury to literally finish it as soon as possible, go treads and poor man's shield, sitting on a quelling blade, and grab the ring of health as makes sense per the lane. So if you're taking a lot of harass, grab the ring of health early, if you're free farming get the pms treads before ring of health. If the lane is freefarm you can shove it into the tower and jungle before ring of health because you have leftover regen, and because the pms damage block and agl treads ias in conjunction with his lower than average base attack time resulting dps is strong on targets you can keep attacking (creeps and neutrals, who don't run away) even without manaburn. Tread swapping keeps your mana up despite blinking to maximize farm before you have void stone. If the offlaner gets enough levels to start to harass you after your support leaves lane you have strength treads and pms 100% chance damage block to minimize what he can do. So you create a dynamic where you're still pushing into the offlaner, he can't zone you because you've invested your farm into items that double for longevity and farming acceleration, and are able to farm jungle camps without missing out on lane creeps. That's when you go ahead and finish the battlefury and explode your farm.
The alternative is rushing out a battlefury, sitting on something like boots broadsword/perseverence, support leaves cuz you've been freefarming, offlaner gets the levels to hurt you, and your jungle rate isn't good yet because you only have pieces of battlefury, so you get zoned from lane, jungle poorly, and have to make fountain trips to heal after a few camps until you finally finish battlefury around the same time as if you had made treads, except you still have to go back and finish treads.
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If you tell them to f off then they get mad and start to be even more useless actually.
Best thing to do is: pick a hero that can lane by himself decently and ask for a solo safe from beginning. Even if you have jungler or people feed in the offensive trilane or mid or w.e, its better for you.
When I boost in 4k I usually block my own pull camp to prevent my own support doing single pulls and ruining the lane. Yes, its very efficient. They often start to single pull immediately on first wave, then do it 10 more times. After they are 3 levels below the offlaner they try to zone EleGiggle. Telling them to not do single pulls because its bad, they either ignore you completely or tell you that you have to pull as support and single pull is not bad or some other nonsense. :roll:
Yes you lose easy camp in first 6 minutes, and spend 75g, but its totally worth it over having the enemy offlaner to get free levels and farm, especially when the people in 4k have no clue at all what to do when they dont get free exp shoved into their ass by bad pulls as offlaner. You proceed to zone them by urself with proper equilibrium, they get underleveled, tilted, start to feed soon or do other mistakes.
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On October 16 2015 23:55 netcode wrote:
As for #4 - building items that let you sustain farming; bully the offlaner - can someone speak to some examples and exactly why?
You indicated building a BF isn't a great, however doesn't that allow you to farm better, it gives dmg and regen, isn't that allowing you to also stay in lane longer?
As I am still fairly new to dota (about 6 months in - somewhere around 800 matches) when people make statements sometimes I don't always understand the WHY. So I like to analyse. Thanks!
Well, with AM, you probably don't want to go naked BFury (which is to say, regular boots + BFury and nothing else) because you're very fragile in lane. If you build a poor man's shield and maybe get a ring of regen to build into Vlad's later, you have much more lane sustain which lets you more aggressively trade hits which gives you kill potential or just go for last hits without having to worry about your health as much.
OP isn't saying don't build a bfury, he's saying don't tunnel vision towards a bfury because those cheap early game items can help your game out
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SoCal8910 Posts
I think that the statement is relatively unclear because of the term "free farm"
You're not "free farming" if there's an offlaner forcing you off the creep wave.
More accurately with the AM example, if you're in a lane where the offlaner can harass you, OP's comments are true. If you're free farming on any hero, you still want little items in your build because they make your farm better and if you're not getting any small items, good players notice that and take advantage of you. The moment your support goes MIA, they're going to bother the crap out of you to delay your timing even further..now you cant farm AND you don't have any items.
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Free farm, as in when your supports are doing the job right, and babying you, and allow you to just hit creeps, while they try to zone the offlaner out of xp range. Usually, as a carry against a solo offlaner, if your supports know wtf they are doing, the first 6-7 mins is basically free-farm for you until rotations happen when supports or mid comes to fuck with you in your lane. However usually most of the time, good players are usually sufficient enough to handle the lane themselves so their supports can go f with their mid or carry so their supports in turn dont come to f with you.
Basically, in the example of the AM, going treads pms, ring of health, basically allows you to trade better and more efficiently, that something like, qb, boots, preservance. Why is this important? Its because lets just say hypothetically you could bring em down to 20% while you remain at 60% health with pms, treads, ring, whereas with the latter build, you can only bring them down to 20% with 35% health, when you trade hits with them. See the big difference there? because you dont build small items that help you win, or allow you to win trades convincingly, you in turn is afraid to be aggressive, which makes you play passively, and that in turn allows the enemy offlaner to f around with you, by taking potshots at you bullying you, because with your item build, you cannot make efficient trades, or dare to harass them. That in turn allows them even if they are not getting much cs to get a ton of xp, because you are playing scared of trades and being passive, whereas if you itemized correctly, they would be scared to even stay in lane against you, because you alone with your item and level advantage is enough to zone them out of xp range by yourself or harass them enough that they would have to leave the lane to go back to regen for fear of a solo kill.
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SoCal8910 Posts
I mean, the idea is definitely there. like I said above, there's just a couple nuances to laning AM that aren't quite right. don't get specific if you're going to make posts like these because there are a lot of situational decisions and choices as well as a couple misunderstandings that sorta get in the way of the point you're trying to make.
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I think the reference to AM was just an example. I know when I posted my question I was speaking more generally rather than specifically to AM. I haven't even played AM before, and I have zero interest to do so any time soon haha.
There is a lot of talk about zoning out the offlaner. Being new, I find this challenging (both as a support and carry) because as soon as I go past their creeps and try to hit the offlaner the creeps start attacking me. With 4 or so creeps, just one hit from each of them is enough to take away quite a bit of HP. Any suggestions here on how to effectively zone out that offlaner?
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If you're the support, don't be running through your creeps right clicking to zone. Either loop around the back so that you're out of creep aggro range when you attack, or simply run at the offlaner without attacking him. Once he backs up sufficiently so you're out of creep range, then attack him. Of course that's not going to work if he's manly and just hits you back because you're a weak support and he's beef, so you have to use some judgement.
If you're a melee carry, buy pms. If offlaner doesn't have one, you don't care about creeps. Trade hits with him, you'll come out on top usually. If you're a ranged carry, stand between the offlaner and the creeps so that you can attack him without drawing aggro. Force him back if he tries to get in xp range.
This all assumes of course, that the supports did their job and you're stronger in the lane.
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SoCal8910 Posts
On October 17 2015 06:25 netcode wrote:
I think the reference to AM was just an example. I know when I posted my question I was speaking more generally rather than specifically to AM. I haven't even played AM before, and I have zero interest to do so any time soon haha.
There is a lot of talk about zoning out the offlaner. Being new, I find this challenging (both as a support and carry) because as soon as I go past their creeps and try to hit the offlaner the creeps start attacking me. With 4 or so creeps, just one hit from each of them is enough to take away quite a bit of HP. Any suggestions here on how to effectively zone out that offlaner?
Ya it's just that what he was saying isn't necessarily true even for am. There are lots of nuances to item selection for the hero so it's best to leave it at, "you don't always need to rush big items."
http://dota2.gamepedia.com/Aggro
There are rules to creep aggro so you might want to read up. If you can learn the mechanics of creep aggro, it might be more helpful than any small tricks for the hero you're playing
If you're a melee agI carry, you might consider picking up a poor man's shield to take less damage from creeps if you want to harass the off laner as they come up to last hit.
Another tip would be to try experimenting with 8 tangoes (2 sets) if you predict a hard lane so that you can be sure to have enough regen. Most people learning the game wind up dropping off in the lane bc they cant stay in the lane.
Finally, learn to orb walk. If you are playing a hero that has an attack modifier like clinkz' searing arrows or huskar's flame spears, you can use that to completely negate creep aggro. Instead of a clicking or right clicking an enemy, press your "orb" and then left click the hero. Creeps do not aggro when you do this.
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Thank you for the tips both you.
I will check out the additional resource on aggro and read up. I didn't really know this, I just thought they always went after you, but now that you say it, and I think about it, I can't believe I didn't pick up on this before.
Oh DOTA, its full of nuances.
I've never played a game before in my entire life of gaming that has such a steep learning curve.
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SoCal8910 Posts
Yep that's why some people love it and some people hate it. Thats also why you get babyragers bc they're the people that go out of their way to learn and improve while they have to put up with crappy junglers and feeders.
>Game is hard
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How to Play Safe Lane Carry:
Remember to fEEd a lot strategically
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On October 10 2015 10:37 PuercoPop wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2015 13:49 Kaj wrote:
2) Know if your support knows what the fuck he is doing or not. If your support is a total retard, and just sits in lane, creates dbl wave or doesnt attempt to zone out the offllaner it is best to ask him to f off from lane completely
Worst possible advice. Dota is a team game it is best to not start insulting your teammates.
"Hey I'm fine here can you gank mid/stack/ward" "hey you keep dying in this lane but I'm safe, can you go somewhere else" are not flames and won't lose the game. This advice is solid you just don't actually say "f off"
What worries me is if someone is REALLY bad I feel guilty sending them to another lane, or have them try to gank and feed instead
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expecting beesa's one liner response here any time now...
annnny time now...
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On October 20 2015 06:40 DavoS wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2015 10:37 PuercoPop wrote:On October 09 2015 13:49 Kaj wrote:
2) Know if your support knows what the fuck he is doing or not. If your support is a total retard, and just sits in lane, creates dbl wave or doesnt attempt to zone out the offllaner it is best to ask him to f off from lane completely
Worst possible advice. Dota is a team game it is best to not start insulting your teammates. "Hey I'm fine here can you gank mid/stack/ward" "hey you keep dying in this lane but I'm safe, can you go somewhere else" are not flames and won't lose the game. This advice is solid you just don't actually say "f off" What worries me is if someone is REALLY bad I feel guilty sending them to another lane, or have them try to gank and feed instead
Telling someone to f off when they're trying to help you is an awful thing to do. If that's honestly how you have to play DOTA then it would seem to me that only complete waste of life assholes who should be put down would enjoy it. You need to consider people's feelings a little and not just tell them to go away because they're being useless. Why not try and help them, respectfully, to get them to do what they need to do? If they leave your lane, where the hell else are they supposed to go? They can't jungle, so where does the XP come from? Instead of telling them to f off, respectfully give them some direction. Unless of course you have none to give them, which means you're just as noob as you think they are. And when I say direction, I mean REAL direction, not just "Hey gank mid/stack/ward." That doesn't actually mean anything. He can't ward without gold, which he isn't getting because he has no farm. Stacking gives him no XP at all, so how does that help him not be level 2 15 minutes into the game? And ganking mid can't be done with certain support heroes without some major direction, like when, where to come from, or smoking, or getting a rune before hand. Be more empathetic, stamping someone a retard immediately will 100% lose you games. And that is YOUR fault, not his.
Basically Number 2 is good advice to a point, what you need to do is tell them specifically what you want them to do instead of being in your lane. Unless of course standing in your lane IS the best thing for him to do, which in some cases it definitely is. It's never a GOOD thing, but sometimes it is the best. DOTA is a ridiculously situational game. If your team just gets dramatically out-picked you've already lost, so telling your support to f off because he's being useless, even though there is no possible way for him to be useful anywhere else, is just malicious, inconsiderate and blatantly wrong.
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You are wrong. A useless support in lane is just a xp sponge. Worse if he cant even pull properly, feeding the enemy offlaner ez xp, without him doing anything. And at the end of the game, the enemy offlaner will be spamming in allchat, ez offlane ez life, ez game. If a support sits in lane, doing nothing, the only thing hes fucking with is you and your team. Even sending him to help the offlaner will make himself x10 more useful than having in him in lane. Because its just easier to spam spells on their carries and stuff rather than have them learn the harder stuff like maintain creep equilibrium, pulling creeps properly and when to do it, and zoning out the offlaner. Unless all of the above are done properly, all the shit support do is detrimental to the team, by feeding the enemy offlaner, and ensuring that he has a good time in lane and not you.
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SoCal8910 Posts
woah woah woah
telling a support to just abandon the lane and go help the offlaner is not necessarily the right thing to do. remember the role of the offlaner - to not die, soak xp, and if possible, bother the enemy carry. if they're screwing up the safe lane, do you think it will be any better to have them go, underleveled, to the offlane where they can't, at the very least, stack?
now instead of taking experience from you, they're taking experience from the offlaner. instead of stacking camps for you to farm up, they're *maybe* doing something to the enemy carry.
what you should be doing (since you're more knowledgeable on how to play support than that person) is telling them what you need them to do. if they can't pull, have them stack. have them secure the rune for your mid.
if they don't listen, then oh well. but by doing that stuff, you're turning yourself into a leader and when you do that, often times 4 random players will realize that they can listen to you and rally around you. at least you can have that going for you instead of tilting yourself and the offlaner bc they're not playing 'perfectly' or 'ideally'
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If the support does not know how to pull decently, he won't be much better at ganging and stacking. So sending him away isn't doing anything. These strategies also revolve around non-retarded compositions in pub games and I have yet to see those on a regular basis. Be happy when the support knows what they are doing and if not just do it yourself. Telling people what to do in this game from minute one is never going to work. People listen to you, when you manage to get far ahead, otherwise they don't. Minute one no one is ahead, so no one will listen.
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SoCal8910 Posts
On October 22 2015 06:33 BlueSpace wrote:
If the support does not know how to pull decently, he won't be much better at ganging and stacking. So sending him away isn't doing anything. These strategies also revolve around non-retarded compositions in pub games and I have yet to see those on a regular basis. Be happy when the support knows what they are doing and if not just do it yourself. Telling people what to do in this game from minute one is never going to work. People listen to you, when you manage to get far ahead, otherwise they don't. Minute one no one is ahead, so no one will listen.
this is not true at all. telling someone to stack at :53 is completely different from the pull times and knowing the different pulls, when to pull, etc. they are two different aspects to support play. that's not to say they are not mutually exclusive, though.
and ANYONE can stack (and/or pull), you don't have to have a "non-retarded composition" to do these things.
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I guess this all comes down to what level you play on. I would asume it's a really uncommon thing for a 3k support to realise he is not doing anything useful in lane and so he goes stacking/roaming/whatever, but in higher level games that should be something the support players are aware of (not always the case though). Going through the process of explaining why a support should leave the lane and what he should do usually takes to much focus from the carry, since in most games there is always gonna be some arguing as well. I feel like it's one of those cases where either the support already knows what to do and why he should do it or he don't and there isn't much to do about it. A carry can't really afford to share his focus on both last hitting/watching the minimap etc and also trying to teach a guy how to play his role, that doesn't work for so many reasons.
Whenever a support is not actively winning the lane for his carry, he's pretty much actively helping their offlaner/s win the lane by taking xp from the carry. At least that's the way I see it.
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EPT
