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Okay, I need input from high MMR brood players, here, which hero do you think counters Brood harder in lane?
As someone that played brood a lot, and I have been told, that Sand King is a much harder counter than Axe is
1) First off, SandStorm makes spiderlings almost impossible to get any kill potential on SK, and it kills Spiderlings really really fast
2) Creep skipping does not work as well, because SK can easily depush with higher levels of SandStorm
3) Sand King is a hero that does much better with farm than brood does, and can easily 1v1 a brood.
4) You can Q nuke Sand King out of the lane with sentries, but SK likewise can easily deward just as easily after pushing out the lanes with SS
5) Sand King's solo kill potential is much higher on brood, especially in earlier levels, where a burrow strike into Epic centre usually means a dead brood.
6) There is usually no good way for brood to kill a SK solo 1v1 if the SK plays it right
Heres why I think Axe, is not as strong in lane vs brood as SK is
1) Creep skipping works against axe to a certain extent.
2) spiderlings to creep skip then deal with axe via nukes is pretty valid, and you can easily nuke him out of lane
3) You have some form of killing potential against Axe, if you manage to trade hits with him using her ultimate after a missed call, and there are no creeps nearby.
So what do you guys think?
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Overall, I just feel that a SK gets a lot more out of the lane than Axe does, and it requires a lot more investment in terms of resources on the brood's part to even try to get him out of the lane, unlike some of the other heroes which can be played around to a certain extent...
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not to mention that Sand Storm makes last hitting with brood an absolute fucking hell...
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you forgot the part where the brood buys sentries against SK
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I don't really see how sand king does much better with farm than brood does
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Sand King does well vs brood but you're supposed to go Q and E in that lane. The 1v1 lane vs brood is like the only time Vanguard is decent on sandking.
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I hate playing against axe
crix you just buy detection and kill him but axe is more tedious
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On February 15 2015 01:35 Rawr wrote:
I don't really see how sand king does much better with farm than brood does
Neither do I, lol.
You can't just focus on the laning stage on its own; if you pick Sand King specifically to deal with brood, then you most often have to commit the ultimate to kill her later on. SK doesn't really have a good tool to deal with juking spiders either. Having a hero in your lineup pinned down to a single lane or a single enemy hero like this is certainly not good in most situations; in this case Axe does a much better job, since he can depush for a while, can catch and farm spiders with blink and still be useful elsewhere on the map with his 10s cd RP. I don't even think SK can shut her down well enough early to be able to stay in the lane alone against her later on.
So no, in my opinion the general answer to brood is not to stop her in the laning stage, but to keep her from going all out push against your T3 towers.
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because if you put points into Q and W, especiallt with higher ranks of SS, Spiderlings dont really do very much at all. And SK is much better at catching spiderlings pre blink dagger timings with burrow strike into SS. And SS can easily tp to help other lanes with Stuns just like axe does once she manages to get enough in the lane, ie a blink dagger.
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because if ur talking about catching spiderlings blink into burrow strike into max SS can easily clear out spiders just as fast if not easier than Axe's call. Besides it takes way more commitment to nuke SK out of lane in terms of detection and sentries, or what not.
Axe is significantly easier to kill than a SK pre blink dagger timing wise, because a SK has extremely high solo kill potential once he hits 6 with just burrow strike into ultimate. and extreme harass potential and even better at catching brood with just blink, burrow strike into SS.
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Because honestly, I feel SK is just as good if not better at depushing and even better at catching Brood out even though you have to commit an ultimate to kill her tho. Honestly, if you see an Axe, and you activate insatiable hunger right when he blinks in, assuming you are not caught completely off guard, you can probably out lifesteal the damage done. It is entirely different with SK, when the initation range is almost twice as far as axe's.
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I must also note that if u send mass spiders after SK, a simple lvl 2 burrow strike and lvl 2 SS will clear out all spiderlings. in the stun duration.
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You should play bristleback against brood
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I'm only a 3.2k player (just had a big leap up from 2.6k mmr as the last constant mmr) however 100+ games of brood.
Legion commander is the hardest counter to brood in the game i think. You only need level 5 with level 3 skill 1 and you can kill all the spiderlites (note: not the spiderlings but still the majority and the spiderlings will be dead within like 10 seconds.
Sand king is an ok counter to brood. Note: OK, not good. This is because you will constantly have a pushed lane vs. brood, so if they rotate a support down, the brood goes into your jungle at level 3 or 4 (depends on when he picks up his level 2 web) and then you are stuck with a carry with no farm.
If a brood does buy sentries at going to lane, like i do to counter the sentries you bring to lane then SK is food at lower levels. Yeah, that's cute with the level 4 combo, but if you try to not be in lane and jungle, then you'll get a slow few levels and brood will have taken your t1, wherein it stops being your jungle, and starts being hers. If you try to lane SK against brood then sk either;
-leeches xp till 4, in which time brood will have taken your t1
-Tries to setup some ganks with burrowstrike, wherein brood will just sic spiders onto you when you burrow in as you then have no escape.
-Tries to setup some counter push with DA RUDE, brood drops a sentry ward preemptively got to counter your sentries, and then kills you with a no spider build.
-leeches xp till level 2, uses sandstorm, then when above scenario plays out, burrow away, but level 1 burrow is the length of a china mans cock, so brood laughs at your pathetic attempt, and with ms 400ish at level 1, just runs you down under your tower.
Axe again, is an ok counter to brood. I'd not write home about it though, since when brood pops ulti your call becomes just holding brood in place for 5 seconds. With other hero's, since brood is squishy, e z kill but it NEEDS other heros.
Bristlefag is a terrible counter to any decent brood. A bad brood, yes it is a counter, but a good brood will move the spiders through the web and just attack your front slowing you. It's a counter insomuch as there is low kill potential.
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That reminds me. What happened to Sand King in competitive games?
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On April 14 2015 02:33 BoesFX wrote:
That reminds me. What happened to Sand King in competitive games?
He makes your lanes a little predictable, and most carries in this meta need the jungle when he should be clearing his big stacks. His pick rate isn't abysmal though. He was at 11.7% for 6.83, but he's down to 8.7% for just April (for comparison, he's just under Rhasta, and he's ahead of Lich, Ogre, Visage, and Bane).
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United States47024 Posts
The problem with LC is that if Brood plays properly you lose so hard before level 5 that the fact that Spiderites instantly die PtA doesn't matter. By that point Brood can jungle with her spiders and basically lane against you purely with her farm/XP advantage.
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LC loses hard to Brood 1v1. 1 level in passive will completely fuck LC up and as long as the Brood keeps spiders away from the lane it's hopeless.
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United States2186 Posts
Timber seems to be the best by far. Neither person can kill the other, brood can't push, and it's quite easy to kill spiders out of nowhere even if brood is jungling.
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lc timber sandking bristle all lose
axe/centaur do better
source: muh 7k experience
also sandking is the worst... he gets completely stomped by a brood that knows the matchup well
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Northern Ireland22208 Posts
how does sk play against that? something tells me a combination of levelling sandstorm and caustic, but brood can always buy sentries (and often does)
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I really think Bristle is the best counter to Brood
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I'd go with axe, he can clear spiders ez, stop the push, prevent spider jungle farm, all you need to do is keep the hp high and prey for the spin. He needs very little items to achieve that and after the blink he can wreck the whole map. You can manfight his call after ulti but axe really limits what brood offer.
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On April 14 2015 12:29 Ver wrote:
Timber seems to be the best by far. Neither person can kill the other, brood can't push, and it's quite easy to kill spiders out of nowhere even if brood is jungling.
timber doesnt output enough damage to shrug brood off until level 5. pre level 3 brood will outcs, then post brood can just cut the lane and slowly nuke him down.
best hero is still axe
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Brood never loses any single 1v1 lane in that she always gets farm/levels. She can always creep skip and farm. But the thing is that if a Brood cannot shut down or put pressure on that hero, you can consider it a loss for brood.
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On April 14 2015 18:58 ahswtini wrote:
how does sk play against that? something tells me a combination of levelling sandstorm and caustic, but brood can always buy sentries (and often does)
if u even get 1 point in caustic. u already lost
u just get xp and w.e farm u can by hiding in sandstorm and stunning away if u goes on u with sentries
if u try to aggressively stun brood she can just kill u. also nvr try to epi brood coz shes too fast and simply walks away after stun is over
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I'm not too experienced in going against Brood but I was always under the impression AOE high armour melee (stout) heroes tend to do well against her i.e. Troll and Naga (arcane/bottle).
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United States47024 Posts
Most heroes that fit that description end up too mana starved or their AoE needs too many levels to kill spiders.
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Yeah that's true but that's still 2 heroes. I don't see the problem in laning Troll regarding mana costs. I've tried to go against her last year as Naga with Midas rush (I deserved to lose for that alone) and failed. With Arcane in a separate game it was really easy to handle her if she went wild on me and I could sustain my costs.
(Now that I think about it, if I was too focused on countering a Broodmother I'd probs run support Naga too. Nuke, net and song doesn't sound that bad in the context of chasing one of them.)
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I find in terms of laning, axe and ds are the only scary enemies for brood. And even then, you can still win if you're careful with spiders.
On April 15 2015 04:55 ChunderBoy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2015 18:58 ahswtini wrote:
how does sk play against that? something tells me a combination of levelling sandstorm and caustic, but brood can always buy sentries (and often does) if u even get 1 point in caustic. u already lost u just get xp and w.e farm u can by hiding in sandstorm and stunning away if u goes on u with sentries if u try to aggressively stun brood she can just kill u. also nvr try to epi brood coz shes too fast and simply walks away after stun is over
Against old brood it was somewhat possible to get a few caustic explosions from her spiders if brood isn't being careful, but with spiders stacking now it just flat out doesn't work.
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On April 13 2015 23:10 bananaboy378 wrote:
but level 1 burrow is the length of a china mans cock
Bristlefag is a terrible counter to any decent brood.
Lol wow, shots fired
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Meepo!!
Poof has a pretty decent radius and absolutely destroys spiderlings
A lot of nuke damage to brood
Net prevents invis / escape
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No hero can solo brood other then axe. Lc probably is the closest.
Even when you counter brood with aoe casters he can simply go no spiderling build and still win the lane if you dont see it coming.
Troll meta is pretty good vs brood currently. The aoe for spiders and the mischance for broods lifesteal and slow. Ive lost the hardest to sven/pa trilanes tho. pa with the burst dmg and evasion can be really unbeatable with good supports.
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Also the about trying a 1on1 "counter mu" is that brood player has probably played that mu 50 times because everyone tries to pick it. Like im never losing to a BB mu I played i too much. I stomp axes too but not enough to make up for a brood pick
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Good trilanes are the only way to stop brood effectively without like a solo axe/bb/legion and winning your agro tri hard.
Thats why broods so awesome in allpick pubs because they never have strong trilanes even at high mmrs because everyones greedy.
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Just to throw them out there:
What about Darkseer? Basically a pushing contest.
What about Magnus? Decent nuke, escape...
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I am very uncomfortable to go 1v1 against brood excluding axe since she can skip spiders and manfight(regen+miss) which probably you'll lose anyways in low levels. Or she can mass nuke you with soul ring and probably out cs you anyways which results a lane loss.
Darkseer might work but it'd be a hell a lot hard lane for him too. Brood can ward him off.
I assume magnus'd lose the lane because of the massive level/mana requirement and again brood can easily skip spiders or nuke magnus.
I believe 3 stun disabler lane is the easiest way to deal with her. Axe + 2 stuns and a dust would wreck brood. After shutting down the brood, supports can roam while axe can deal with spider 1v1 anyways. Considering safe lane axe is not out of meta nowadays, it is the premium strategy imo.
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On April 22 2015 21:17 Velr wrote:
Just to throw them out there:
What about Darkseer? Basically a pushing contest.
What about Magnus? Decent nuke, escape...
They both lose.
Brood never loses to ANY hero in a 1v1 match up. Brood beats many heroes. Some heroes she goes even. The thing is that when you pick brood, you want to dominate. Going even or barely winning an axe/bristle 55-45 is akin to losing. You really have to justify the brood pick by destroying the lane.
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I don't see them winning too, but couldn't they hold their own?
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United States47024 Posts
DS classically was a Brood "counterpick" because he *can* do well if he understands the matchup a lot better than Brood does, but in general it's still unfavored.
Magnus has the aforementioned problem that his mana situation isn't good enough without bottle-crow (and safe lane bottle-crow puts pressure on mid) and his nuke isn't good enough until too late.
Like, a ton of heroes that have AoE that's *eventually* capable of dealing with spiders lose too hard early before their nukes are actually strong enough or their mana is good enough to actually do that. You can't really just get crushed till level 5 and start nuking spiders, because by then she'll have an item advantage and not need them to beat you (especially since she can take a rank of passive to just fuck you up), and just use them to kill neutrals on the side for extra farm.
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Sandking and Bristle are really good vs Brood.
Especially Sandking with early levels in Caustic Finale will zone Brood already on lvl 1 since she can not even go near creeps. Just hit every creep once to apply the debuff. On level two, you do the same but when cbrood goes near creeps, you stun her + the creeps debuffed to kill em off which will inflict huge dmg to brood 
Reapeat into oblivion.
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LC kind of suck balls vs brood.
A lot of times you think you have a kill on blink ult, but no, you miss like 60% of your attacks and don't get duel damage ;(
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Northern Ireland22208 Posts
On April 23 2015 10:18 Ler wrote:Sandking and Bristle are really good vs Brood. Especially Sandking with early levels in Caustic Finale will zone Brood already on lvl 1 since she can not even go near creeps. Just hit every creep once to apply the debuff. On level two, you do the same but when cbrood goes near creeps, you stun her + the creeps debuffed to kill em off which will inflict huge dmg to brood Reapeat into oblivion.
now ive heard opposite things from two BLUE POSTERS who is correct???
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On April 23 2015 17:53 evanthebouncy! wrote:
LC kind of suck balls vs brood.
A lot of times you think you have a kill on blink ult, but no, you miss like 60% of your attacks and don't get duel damage ;(
To be fair you would likely need at least one of your nukers to TP in anyway if you intend to gank anyone as early game LC.
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On April 23 2015 18:40 ahswtini wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2015 10:18 Ler wrote:Sandking and Bristle are really good vs Brood. Especially Sandking with early levels in Caustic Finale will zone Brood already on lvl 1 since she can not even go near creeps. Just hit every creep once to apply the debuff. On level two, you do the same but when cbrood goes near creeps, you stun her + the creeps debuffed to kill em off which will inflict huge dmg to brood Reapeat into oblivion. now ive heard opposite things from two BLUE POSTERS who is correct???
One is talking about an idealized 1v1 situation, and one is talking about what you would actually draft for your lanes. Solo safelane max Caustic Finale Sand King is not going to be winning prizes for innovative new laning choice any time soon.
Duck is right. Brood is such a lackluster hero for teamfights and highground push/defense that she needs to shut down the enemy laner and farm massively in order to be considered good. You don't want to be playing for late with a melee hero whose steroid skill does nothing past granting 100 damage and whose manfight potential is demolished by both BKB and MKB. Not when you have Troll and Juggernaut to worry about.
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why is nobody mentioning tide? I don't have much experience in the matchup, but getting w and e should mean the only way she can damage you is her nuke, right? So if you have enough regen you should be fine, and as others said, having an even lane with brood is pretty much winning. Or did I miss something?
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All heroes but axe needs levels and items in order to deal with her. Axe needs something but much more minimal. Blue posters and the others tell that brood will dominate the lane and extract much more than the opposition starting from level 1 1v1.
Tide can do something after level 7 but even he cannot win the lane.
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EPT
