Ability Draft Tier List

LSB

United States5171 Posts

May 25 2014 01:54 GMT

Random Ability Draft

Trade the organized chaos of Dota 2 for a taste of pure bedlam! Unlocked at level 5, in this mode each player is randomly assigned a hero, and each hero's abilities are placed into a pool. Players then take turns choosing which abilities their hero will bring into battle. Behold the majesty of a Pouncing Pudge, ~~witness Axe fumbling with Psi Blades~~, and experience the terror of ~~Illusory Orb Magnus~~.

Work in Progress

Table of Contents
I. Introduction
II. General Overview
III. Broken Abilities and Combos
IV. Ability Tier List

I. Introduction
Ability draft is a game mode that really tests your knowledge of the in game abilities and their interactions. Games are really 'stompy' and seem to be over in the early game, however this usually is because one team has a far superior draft. The draft is the most important part of ability draft. Having the correct abilities can make up for a lack of general dota playing ability.

II. General Overview
Know your hero. Certain heros have horrible stat gains and shouldn't be played as carries simply due to their innate scaling. In addition some heros have very small strength gains so make sure you buy HP boosting items. If you need a bloodstone to be effective you might want to reconsider your planned build.

However even if you have a good body, it doesn't mean you should tunnel vision yourself into being a carry. Likewise you should always grab S-Tier abilities no matter your body

Special Notes
Visage has 10% magic resistance (instead of 25% which is normal)
Silencer's int steal ability is innate (Each time he is in the vicinity of an enemy kill he steals 2 int)
Void will always be able to move in a chrono
Nightstalker's Ags ult upgrade is innate (And really good). So pick an ulti that has a good ags upgrade and you get double the abilities from an Ags.

Don't lose the game before it begins - If an enemy picks one of the two parts of a broken combo (see below), it is your responsibility to take the other part, even if it hinders your own draft.

Buy wards and courier - Everyone scales in ability draft so no one buys wards and courier (Oddly enough people are very good about buying detection). Wards are really cheap for what they offer and buy them, no matter what position you think you are.

Consider picking your ulti last - Most ultis in the game are pretty powerful. Even if you pick last you probably will get a good one

Keep in mind your build order - Unfortunately you can't max all of your skills by level seven. Try getting at least one skill that works great with a single point in it, or works great as a late game skill

Don't go four passives - Spells have a mana cost for a reason.

III. Broken Abilities and Combos
These abilities and combos are very good and are 'broken' in the sense that they can cause an 'unfair advantage' for one team. I will classify these abilities as S tier
Abilities
Chemical Rage - Best Standalone skill in the game. Early game it is amazing regen allowing yourself to avoid the fountain. Late game you get 1.0 BAT and even better regen making yourself a killing machine.
Shukuchi - Initiation, escape, manuverability, just amazing
Teleportation - global map presence and save on TP scrolls
Permanent Invisibility - Spells don't break invisability. Grab some stuns/slows/nukes and murder people
Burrowstrike - Blink + Stun
Berserker's Blood - Think old huskar, but on a hero with acceptable stat gains
Blink (Antimage) - Best blink in the game. Other blinks are also good

Melee-Specific Abilities
These abilities are really strong for melee heros.
Focus Fire - Combine this with a basher and you get almost perma stun
Frost Arrow/Poison Arrow/Burning Spears - Having a ranged autocast allows a melee unit to attack ranged with no projectile. Searing Arrows and Glaives of Wisdom are very good too
Take Aim - Grab an orb of venom

Ranged-Specific Abilities
Grow - Great Damage Steriod
Walrus Punch - Great Damage and kindof works as a stun
Tidebringer - The problem with glass cannon kunkka is that he is easy to kill. Range helps fix that
Take Aim/Elder Dragon form - Gives you 1000 range
Fury Swipes
Enchant Totem

Combos
These abilities when paired together can singlehandily win you the game. Prepared to be flamed if you don't deny these combos from the enemy, or deny them from your own teammates.
Ability draft is a game played to win, so there is no taboo for picking these combos

Rearm+Tomestone - You are no longer playing dota, you are playing left for dead. Either skill is really strong on their own too, lots of things combo with Rearm
Sticky Napalm Combos + Show Spoiler +

Best with
Rocket Barrage
Dark Pact
Ion Shell
Rhasta Shackles
Rot
Good but not broken
Torrent
Burning Spears
Avalanche

- Utterly broken dps
Tidebringer + Enchant Totem/Jinada/Drunken brawler - Rarely ever put together since all the abilities are very popular
Aftershock Combos+ Show Spoiler +

Arc Lightning
Quill Spray
Viscous Nasal Goo
Sticky Napalm
Ball Lightning
Rearm
Arcane Orb

- Perma Stun
Split Shot + Juxtapose + Phantom Edge + (Ranged Hero) - Each shot that comes out can create an illusion. Pick Juxtapose first

Other Combos
These combos are good. But not game losing if you don't deny it
Fiery Soul/Overload + Low cooldown Spell - Max attack speed or overload every hit? Yes please
Summon Familiar + Howl/Precision Aura - Lol 'backdoor regen'
Essence Aura/Overload + Toggle Ability - Both proc on toggles
Split Shot + Fury Swipes -> The non-main attacks increases the counter (but does not deal extra damage)
Overpower + damage steroid -> Burst Physical Damage is good, especially on a ranged hero

Useless Skills
Some skills are very bad if you don't get the other.
Phatom Edge without Juxtapose
Eclipse without Lucent Beam
Markmanship - + Show Spoiler +

Marksmanship is a very solid ability. 80 Agility is insane. However due ot the fact that the attack range is a 400 AOE, a lot of heros cannot use the ability. Unless you have a ranged orb/take aim (not liquid fire), marksmanship is only good on (Drow Ranger, Clinkz, Medusa, Mirana, Viper, Sniper, Razor (475 range), Venomancer (450 range), Weaver (425 Range). )

Moon Glaives if you are melee (Okay, it does work if two people are within your attack range)
Sanity's Eclipse if you have low int
Nether Strike without Greater Bash (You just do a little damage)
Also keep in mind Exorcisim lvl 1 without Witchcraft is pretty underwhelming

IV. Ability Tier List
These are all general guidelines.

Rating Scale
S-Tier- Instalock asap extremely good abilities that are pretty broken. (General guideline, melee abilities on ranged heros, and ranged abilities on melee heros)
A-Tier- Abilities that are worth instalocking regardless of your draft. This includes all reliable stuns, hexs
B-Tier- Very solid abilities, however consider synergies first rather than tier positions. This includes most other stuns and good nukes.
C-Tier- Acceptable abilities. As always consider synergies
F-Tier- Consider taking this last. Or even stats over this ability.

Ulties are rated on a different scale from normal abilities. Since most ultis are pretty good, a lot of them are rated B because you probably should be picking a good ability instead.
Generally you want to prioritize good teamfight ultis. Avoid useless ultis or ultis you will not be able to support the mana cost for.

+ Show Spoiler +

May not be comprehensive

Abbadon
Mist Coil - C
Aphotic Shield - B
Curse of Avernus - B (great on ranged)
Borrowed Time - B

Admiral Kunkka
Tidebringer - S (Ranged) A (Melee)
Torrent - B
X Marks The Spot -B
Ghost Ship - B

Alchemist
Acid Spray - C
Unstable Concoction - B
Goblin's Greed - C (If you want to carry, grab a carry passive)
Chemical Rage - S

Ancient Apparition
Cold Feet - C
Ice Vortex - C
Chilling Touch - B
Ice Blast - A

Antimage
Mana Break - A on ranged hero, B on Melee
Blink - S
Spell Shield - C/F (Depending on the magic damage of the opposing lineup)
Mana Void - F

Axe
Berserker's Call - B
Battle Hunger - C
Counter Helix - B (Allows you to jungle)
Culling Blade - B

Batrider
Sticky Napalm - Situational
Flamebreak - C
Firefly - B
Flaming Lasso - B

Bane
Enfeeble - C
Brain Sap - B (Great for Kill Securing)
Nightmare - B
Fiend's Grip - A

Bounty Hunter
Shuriken Toss - C
Jinada - A
Shadow Walk - A
Track - B

Bristleback
Viscous Nasal Goo - C (Generally you need something to combo with this)
Quill Spray - C (Generally you need something to combo with this)
Bristleback - B
Warpath - Situational

Broodmother
Spawn Spiderlings - C
Spin Web - A
Incapitating bite - A (Works great on ranged)
Insatiable Hunger - S (Free satanic, works great on ranged)

Bloodseeker
Bloodrage - A
Bloodbath - B
Thrist - A (Very good, especially against invis)
Rupture - B/F (Might be good if your opponents don't carry tps)

Brewmaster
Thunder Clap - B
Drunken Haze - C
Drunken Brawler - A
Primal Split - A

Centuar Warrunner
Hoof Stomp - A
Double Edge - B (Even better if you have a good stun since it doesn't require mana)
Return - B
Stampede - B

Chaos Knight
Chaos Bolt - A
Reality Rift - B
Critical Strike - B
Phantasm - C (Try to get reality rift)

Clinkz
Strafe - B
Searing Arrows - A
Wind Walk - A
Death Pact - B

Clockwork
Battery Assault - B
Power Cogs - C
Rocket Flare - C
Hookshot - B

Crystal Maiden
Crystal Nova - B
Frostbite - A
Arcane Aura - B
Freezing Field- B (Make sure you have mana)

Dazzel
Poison Touch - B
Shallow Grave - B
Shadow Wave - B
Weave - B

Dark Seer
Vacuum - Situational
Ion Shell - B
Surge - B
Wall of Replica -B

Death Prophet
Crypt Swarm - B
Silence - B
Witchcraft - A (The problem with death prophet is you need witchcraft to make the other skills good)
Exorcism - B

Dragon Knight
Breath Fire - B
Dragon Tail - A (Even better with Ulti)
Dragon Blood - B
Elder Dragon Form - S (really good on ranged)

Drow Ranger
Frost Arrows - S (Melee) A (Ranged)
Silence - A
Trueshot Aura - C (A if you have familiars)
Markmanship - See note above. A (Drow Ranger, Clinkz, Medusa, Mirana, Viper, Sniper, Ranged Orb + Agi hero). B (Razor, Venomancer, Weaver). F (Everyone else)

Earthshaker
Fissure - A
Enchant Totem - S(ranged) A
Aftershock - S/B (If you can combo it, it is very good)
Echo Slam -B

Elder Titain
Echo Stomp - F (Without Astral Spirit or a good setup)
Astral Spirit - C
Natural Order - A
Earth Splitter - B

Enchantress
Untouchable - A
Enchant - B (Allows you to jungle)
Nature's Attendants - C (good if you have a low HP pool)
Impetus - A/B

Faceless void
Time Walk - A (not as good as a proper blink though)
Backtrack - B
Timelock - A (ranged) B (melee)
Chronosphere - B. F if the void is on the enemy team

Gyrocopter
Rocket Barrage - B
Homing Missile - C
Flack Cannon - B
Call Down - B

Huskar
Inner Vitality - B
Burning Spear - S (Melee) A (ranged)
Berserker's Blood - S
Life break - B

Jakiro
Dual Breath - C
Ice Path - B
Liquid Fire - B
Macropyre - B

Juggernaut
Blade Fury - A (Magic immunity)
Healing Ward - C
Blade Dance - B
Omnislash - B

Magnus
Shockwave - B
Empower - B
Skewer - B
Reverse Polarity - A

Leshrac
Split Earth - B
Diabolic Edict - B
Lightning Storm - C
Pulse Nova - B

Lich
Frost Blast - B
Ice Armor - C
Sacrifice - A
Chain Frost - B

Lifestealer
Rage - A
Feast - C
Open Wounts - B
Infest - B

Lion
Earth Spike - A
Hex - A
Mana Drain - C
Finger of Death - B

Luna
Lucent Beam - B
Moon Glaives - B (Ranged) F (Melee)
Lunar Blessing - F
Eclipse - B

Lycan
Summon Wolves- B (Allows you to jungle)
Howl - C (A if you have familiars)
Feral Impulse - B
Shapeshift - B (A if you are Spirit Breaker and Treant protector, as it changes your BAT)

Medusa
Mystic Snake - C
Split Shot - C (Much better with fury swipes as it increases the counter) F (Melee)
Spell Shield - B (Make sure you have the mana)
Stone Gaze - A

Naga Siren
Mirror Image - B
Ensane - A
Rip Tide - C (Better with Mirror Image)
Song of the Siren - A

Nature's Prophet
Sprout - B
Teleportation - S
Force of Nature - B (Allows you to jungle)
Wrath of Nature B

Mirana
Starstorm - B
Sacred Arrow- B
Leap - B
Moonlight Shadow - B
Nightstalker
Void - B
Crippling Fear - B
Hunter in the Night - A
Darkness - F (Unless you have hunter in the night). To be fair reduced vision is really good

Necrophos
Eath Pulse - C
Heartstopper Aura - F
Sadist - C
Reaper's Scythe - B

Omniknight
Purification - B
Repel - A (Better than magic immunity)
Degen Aura - C
Guardian Angel - B

Outworld Devourer
Arcane Orb - B (needs Essence Aura or Bloodstone)
Astral Imprisonment - B
Essence Aura - A
Sanity's Eclipse - B/F. Please do not get if you don't have good int scaling

Legion Commander
Overwhelming Odds - B
Press the attack - B
Moment of Courage - B (allows you to jungle)
Duel - S (if you have the strength gain to support it)

Lina
Dragon Slave - B
Light Strike Array - B (Better with setup)
Fiery Soul - Situational
Laguna Blade - B

Phantom Assassin
Stifling Dagger - C (Better with coup de grace)
Phantom Strike - B (Limited Blink)
Blur - A
Coup de Grace - A

Phantom Lancer
Spirit Lance - B
Doppelwalk - B
Juxtapose - B
Phantom Edge - B

Pudge
Hook - B
Rot - F
Flesh Heap - C/F there is probably a better skill out there
Dismember - B

Pugna
Nether Blast - B
Decrepify - B
Nether Ward - B
Life Drain - B

Queen of Pain
Shadow Strike - C
Blink - A
Sream of Pain - C
Sonic Wave - B

Riki
Smoke Screen - B
Blink Strike - B
Backstab - B
Permanent Invisibility - S

Sand King
Burrowstrike - S
Sand Storm - B (Short coodown invis)
Caustic Finale - C
Epicenter - B

Silencer
Curse of the Silent - C
Glaives of Wisdom - A (Melee or Int)
Last Word - B
Global Silence - A

Slardar
Sprint - C (Consider a different skill)
Slithereen Crush - A
Bash - A (Ranged) B (Melee)
Amplify Damage- B

Storm Spirit
Static Remnant - C
Electric Vortex - C
Overload - Situational
Ball Lightning - B

Spirit Breaker
Charge of Darkness - A
Empowering Haste - F
Greater Bash - A (on ranged)
Nether Strike - F (can be interrupted easily)

Tiny
Avalanche - A
Toss - B
Craggy Exterior - B
Grow - S

Razor
Plasma Field - B
Static Link - B (Better if you have a slow)
Unstable Current - C
Eye of the Storm - B

Shadow Shaman
Ether Shock - B
Hex - A
Shackles - B
Mass Serpent Ward - A

Skywrath Mage
Arcane Bolt - B
Concussive Shot - B
Ancient Seal - C
Mystic Flare - B

Slark
Dark Pact - C
Leap - A
Essence Shift - B
Shadow Dance - A

Sniper
Shrapnel - F (At least it gives sight)
Head Shot - B-F depending on if you are ranged and have a good attack speed
Take Aim - S
Assassinate - B

Sven
Storm Bolt - A
Great Cleave - C (Although it may sound like one, it isn't a battlefury)
Warcry - C
God's Strength - S

Tidehunter
Gush - C
Kraken Shell - B
Anchor Smash - B (Can do ancient stacks)
Ravage - A (Refresher is very good)

Timbersaw
Whirling Death - B
Timber Chain - B
Reactive Armor - C
Chakram - B

Tinker
Lazer - B
Heat-Seeking Missile - C
March of the Machines - F
Rearm - S

Treant Protector
Nature's Guise - B/A (Spells/Items do not break invis)
Leech Sead - B
Living Armor - A
Overgrowth - B

Tusk
Ice shards - B
Snowball - B
Frozen Sigil - C
Walrus Punch - S (Ranged) A (Melee)
Ursa
Earthshock - C
Overpower - B
Fury Swipes - S (ranged) A (melee)
Enrage - F

Undying
Decay - B
Soul Rip - C
Tombstone - A
Flesh Golem - B

Viper
Poison Attack - S (melee) A (ranged)
Nether Toxin - B
Corrosive Skin - B
Viper Strike - B

Vengeful Spirit
Magic Missile - A
Wave of Terror - C
Vengeance Aura - B
Nether Swap - B

Venomancer
Venomous Gale - A
Poison Sting - B
Plague Ward - C (Better with poison sting)
Poison Nova - B

Visage
Grave Chill - B
Soul Assumption - B
Gravekeeper's Cloak - B
Summon Familiar - B
Weaver
The Swarm - C
Shukuchi - S
Geminate Attack - A (Works great on melee)
Time Lapse - B

Warlock
Fatal Bonds - C
Shadow Word - B
Upheaval - C
Rain of Chaos - B

Witch Doctor
Paralyzing Cask - A
Voodoo Restoration - B
Maledict - B
Death Ward - B

Windranger
Shackleshot - B (Better with positioning item/skill)
Powershot - B
Windrun - B
Focus Fire - S (Melee, buy a basher) B (Ranged)

Wraith King
Wraithfire Blast - A
Vampiric Aura - C
Critical Strike - B
Reincarnation - A

Zeus
Arc Lighting - C
Lightning bolt - B
Static Field - C/F (Not as good as you think, trust me)
Thundergod's Wrath - B (Refresher ags is really really good)

LSB

United States5171 Posts

May 25 2014 01:54 GMT

Discuss

Vesion 0.3
+ Show Spoiler +

Reworked the "know your hero section" thanks ZetaPulse.
Chemical Rage changed to best standalone skill in the game
Note on shapeshift added (Thanks Yango)
Make things pretty
Anchor Smash is now B -> Thanks Logo
Overpower combos noted -> QUEENT

Version 0.2
+ Show Spoiler +

Firey Napalm + Rhasta Shackles -> Thanks Yango!
SKC Suggestions
Ice Blast - A
Rearm - Situational
Tidebringer - S (Ranged)
Greevil's Greed - C
Essence shift - S (Ranged Agi), A (Melee Agi), B (Other)
Take Aim (Ranged S)
Added a note on toggle abilities
Split Shot + Juxtapose + Phantom Edge + (Ranged Hero)-> Thanks Belisarius
Aftershock + Arcane Orb ->Thanks Efane
Homing Missile - C -> Thanks Yurie

opterown

Australia54784 Posts

May 25 2014 02:09 GMT

nice list!

TheYango

United States47024 Posts

May 25 2014 02:21 GMT

Just FYI on Sticky Napalm, it "works" with any skill that does damage in 0.1s intervals, which is actually the case for a lot of weird spells one wouldn't expect. For example, Rhasta Shackles is actually bugged to do 4 damage ticking every 0.1s rather than 40 damage ticking every 1s.

Steveling

Greece10806 Posts

May 25 2014 02:28 GMT

I haven't played that mode even once.

SKC

Brazil18828 Posts

May 25 2014 03:36 GMT

Ice Blast is way too good for a B, I don't think Rearm is an S without any combo, games end way too quickly for you to do standard Tinker stuff and you need even more items if you are not an int hero. Tidebringer for ranged is an S for sure. I think your hate on Greevil's Greed is more about how people pick it and play it than about the skill itself, it's fine as a later pick for someone that has good farming skills, there are plenty of worse picks for a carry. It's worth mentioning that picking Chrono with a Void on your team is double goodness, but doesn't need to be an early pick since the opponents are probally not picking it anyway. Essence shift on an Agi Hero is on a complete diferent tier than for someone else, with a Ranged Agi it's first pick worth for sure.

Why would Liquid Fire be worse for Melee? If anything it's far better than for Ranged. I would say the opposite of Take Aim, you spend 4 skill points just to be a ranged hero. Orbs are great because they only require 1 skill point for the full range and give a great bonus. Take Aim is good for ranged because scaling to 1k range is far better. Same reason why Elder Dragon Form is better for ranged.

I think it's weird how almost every stun is an A, some are obvious first picks like Storm Hammer and Wraithfire Blast and some like Ice Path or Shackles are easily a tier or more below them. I would pick Hook or Sacred Arrow over either of them anyway day (again I think that's more about your hate on how people play Pudge/Mirana than the actual skill, both do a lot of damage and have great side effects). Some nukes are better than some stuns. You also undervalue big teamfight spells like RoC and RP. Just like in AP it's easy to group up and force teamfights.

Overall I think guidelines are farm more useful than tier lists. You don't have time to check a list in the middle of the draft, so they are more about people arguing forever about what's good.

Basically, the most common mistake people make is drafting a generic shitty carry with Crit/lifesteal that needs a few big items to do something. The game is over before you can do that. Carries need OP skills to be worth it, pick stuns and nukes and win lanes. If you need farm to be useful, you better be able to win the game by youself.

Dont tunnelvision your own hero and what you want to pick, look at what the other team is doing and don't cockblock your team. Often you see two average heroes that tried to do the same shit and ended up sharing skills.

Your body is only a guideline, it's better to pick suboptimal skills on a body than leaving OP skills for your enemy. I saw a guy refuse to pick Divided We Stand because he was too squishy. Don't be that guy. Mana boots solve most mana problems for Str/Agi heroes and if you building a carry it better be OP anyway, so it doesn't matter if it's an Enigma.

Belisarius

Australia6231 Posts

May 25 2014 04:18 GMT

I haven't played AD since they put meepo in. I'm considering it again now that he's gone.

Is stuff like dragon form still bugged on some heroes? And have they finally removed all the toggle+on-cast interactions? I remember at least mana shield and overload worked after the first pass of fixes.

I would agree that some of your melee/ranged splits are weird, like liquid fire, take aim, geminate and probably burning spears. I also wouldn't personally rate frost arrows an S when tidebringer is inexplicably an A.

imallinson

United Kingdom3482 Posts

May 25 2014 04:19 GMT

Another broken combo is split shot with juxtapose and phantom edge on a ranged hero. I'm not sure whether its that each split shot has its own chance to proc or that each time it procs it procs five times but either way it turns you into pl on crack. Also a good way to deal with rearm + tombstone (although this was better when zombies gave xp and gold).

Kirsed

9380 Posts

May 25 2014 05:36 GMT

Take aim + Impetus is pretty good. If you position correctly you can hit people for like 50% of their hp at level 7.

SafeWord

United States522 Posts

May 25 2014 06:52 GMT

#10

I think you should add if the abilities are great on Str, Int, or Agi heroes.

Efane

Russian Federation49 Posts

May 25 2014 09:48 GMT

#11

as far as i remember arcane orb is the only orb in the game which actually counts as a proper spell (been eaten alive by it+aftershock), which in my eyes makes it one of the strongest combo spells. i wonder how would it work with overcharge...

Yurie

11875 Posts

May 25 2014 10:59 GMT

#12

Does Mana Shield still proc things? Like overload?

Taters_

Finland123 Posts

May 25 2014 14:04 GMT

#13

Rearm + Netherward = hilarious

Taters_

Finland123 Posts

May 25 2014 15:06 GMT

#14

On May 25 2014 18:48 Efane wrote:
as far as i remember arcane orb is the only orb in the game which actually counts as a proper spell (been eaten alive by it+aftershock), which in my eyes makes it one of the strongest combo spells. i wonder how would it work with overcharge...

works with overcharge but if set on autocast the game doesn't recognize every autoattack with it so you might not get it on every attack.

SKC

Brazil18828 Posts

May 25 2014 17:32 GMT

#15

On May 25 2014 19:59 Yurie wrote:
Does Mana Shield still proc things? Like overload?

It's not Mana Shield that's the exception, it's Overload. So toggle abilities like Mana Shield, Split Shot, etc. will activate Overload but not other similar spells like Aftershock. Essence Aura also works with toggles, Essence Aura + Mana Shield + Mystic Flare with Aghs is one of the funniest things you can do.

Fumanchu

Canada669 Posts

May 25 2014 18:13 GMT

#16

Simple is often best. People look for devastating combos, but simplicity is your friend. An ideal draft in my opinion would consist of one escape move, two nukes, and a defensive/support move.

A simple build of:

Breathe Fire
Shockwave
Blink
RoC/Ice Blast/MSW/Static Storm/Exorcism/Poison Nova

will be a very, very strong build. It will also, with the exception of blink, be a relatively easy build to make. Skills like Breathe Fire and shockwave usually get overlooked until the very end. But look at what they give you. Two 300 damage nukes with a 12 sec and a 7 sec cd respectively. Throw in a blink or a ww, and an ult that gives you team fight presence, and you're golden.

It doesn't possess a lot of flash, but it has great survivability, and superior farming potential. Simplicity is king.

Yurie

11875 Posts

May 25 2014 18:57 GMT

#17

Homing Missile - F

Any stun is worth more than F. It has also been buffed to hit invis now.

xxpack09

United States2160 Posts

May 25 2014 19:00 GMT

#18

I have only played like 20ish games in this mode, but Tidebringer is an S for SURE on ranged heroes--it honestly might be the best ability in the pool. (maybe Shukuchi is better)

LSB

United States5171 Posts

May 25 2014 19:14 GMT

#19

Thanks for all your comments, I'll update the guide with a lot of stuff.
Version 0.2
+ Show Spoiler +

I'll just quote things I have comments on.

On May 25 2014 12:36 SKC wrote:
Why would Liquid Fire be worse for Melee? If anything it's far better than for Ranged. I would say the opposite of Take Aim, you spend 4 skill points just to be a ranged hero. Orbs are great because they only require 1 skill point for the full range and give a great bonus. Take Aim is good for ranged because scaling to 1k range is far better. Same reason why Elder Dragon Form is better for ranged.

I don't really like Liquid Fire as melee, since you lose the ability to harass with it in lane. And it doesn't help you chase the enemy.

Question: When you are a melee hero and using a ranged orb, do you use Melee bash chance or ranged bash chance? If it is the latter I think Take aim is S tier for melee as you can OOV/Basher.

Overall I think guidelines are farm more useful than tier lists. You don't have time to check a list in the middle of the draft, so they are more about people arguing forever about what's good.

I don't think of the teir list as something you should investigate in the middle of the draft. I think it of something we can use to compare our evaluation of our abilities.

The sheer amount of mana required for this is insane, but it probably should be worth noting.

On May 25 2014 13:18 Belisarius wrote:
Is stuff like dragon form still bugged on some heroes? And have they finally removed all the toggle+on-cast interactions? I remember at least mana shield and overload worked after the first pass of fixes.

I would agree that some of your melee/ranged splits are weird, like liquid fire, take aim, geminate and probably burning spears. I also wouldn't personally rate frost arrows an S when tidebringer is inexplicably an A.

I'm not really sure what you mean by dragon form being bugged. I don't think it is 'bugged' in that I am sure it works by adding the effect and giving the extra range to all heros
I really like frost arrows since it does incorporate a slow. And unlike a drow you can't just run at her and kill her.

On May 26 2014 03:57 Yurie wrote:
Homing Missile - F

Any stun is worth more than F. It has also been buffed to hit invis now.

It's always very underwhelming, I guess it isn't that bad if you leave one point in it and use it to zone / delayed stun in teamfights.

SKC

Brazil18828 Posts

May 25 2014 19:18 GMT

#20

On May 26 2014 04:00 xxpack09 wrote:
I have only played like 20ish games in this mode, but Tidebringer is an S for SURE on ranged heroes--it honestly might be the best ability in the pool. (maybe Shukuchi is better)

Grow is better as well most of the time. You need an Aghs, but it's pretty decent even before that and it's just ridiculous on a ranged hero after it. Shukuchi is the very best one most of the time, depends a bit on how many disables there are in the pool. Chemical Rage can be better than Tidebring in low nuke pools or on a tanky hero, but can be quite unremarkable against Ice Blast or on a weak hero.

That's the issue with Tier lists in Ability Draft. Everything is so situational and depends on a lot of stuff. I've picked the "worse" skills several times because the best skill isn't gamebreaking on the opponents hero and if he doesn't pick it (and they often don't), your teammate will pick it.

On May 26 2014 04:14 LSB wrote:
Thanks for all your comments, I'll update the guide with a lot of stuff.
Version 0.2
+ Show Spoiler +

I'll just quote things I have comments on.

Show nested quote +

Elder Dragon Form is bugged in a lot of melee heroes because they don't have a ranged projectile speed iirc, so their attacks don't move and stick to a place in the map. It's a gamble if you pick it for a melee, and not that gamebreaking for most of them anyway. Same thing with Glaives from Luna.

Liquid Fire is ranged in melee like other orbs, I'm not sure what you mean. It's a no mana cost ranged skill and amazing for heroes that don't have mana to support two skills.

Fake ranged characters work like melee, so Vlads lifesteal, Basher and OoV are better, etc.

Severedevil

United States4839 Posts

May 25 2014 19:24 GMT

#21

As long as you folks keep letting me third or fourth-pick Enchant for an easy early-game, I'm happy.

SigmaoctanusIV

United States3313 Posts

May 25 2014 19:24 GMT

#22

Fury Swipes isn't on the range pick up list? it's so good on a ranged hero.

SKC

Brazil18828 Posts

May 25 2014 19:26 GMT

#23

On May 26 2014 04:24 SigmaoctanusIV wrote:
Fury Swipes isn't on the range pick up list? it's so good on a ranged hero.

He did list it as an S, but after the buff it could certainly also be listed on the intro. It's still not a ranged specific pick up, it's pretty good for melee as well.

Enchant totem for ranged is pretty good as well.

TheYango

United States47024 Posts

May 25 2014 19:28 GMT

#24

I'm not really sure what you mean by dragon form being bugged. I don't think it is 'bugged' in that I am sure it works by adding the effect and giving the extra range to all heros

Technically its a bug because Elder Dragon Form is a transformation skill, meaning it's supposed to change your base stats to those of the Dragon unit, rather than just adding to yours by whatever amount DK gets.

One question is how does Elder Dragon Form modify movespeed for heroes that don't have 290 base MS? Does it add 25 MS or does it set their MS to 315?

SKC

Brazil18828 Posts

May 25 2014 19:29 GMT

#25

On May 26 2014 04:28 TheYango wrote:

Show nested quote +

I believe it adds the movespeed like it adds the range. But I'm not 100% sure.

The most important part of the bug is that your attacks don't actually work as a ranged unit for some melee heroes, but work for others.

A fun side effect from Dota 2 is that Pulse Nova and similar skills work while invisible in Ability Draft, since in Dota 2 they are coded specifically to Lesh and not simply based on Immolation.

LSB

United States5171 Posts

May 25 2014 19:39 GMT

#26

On May 26 2014 04:18 SKC wrote:
Elder Dragon Form is bugged in a lot of melee heroes because they don't have a ranged projectile speed iirc, so their attacks don't move and stick to a place in the map. It's a gamble if you pick it for a melee, and not that gamebreaking for most of them anyway. Same thing with Glaives from Luna.

Liquid Fire is ranged in melee like other orbs, I'm not sure what you mean. It's a no mana cost ranged skill and amazing for heroes that don't have mana to support two skills.

Fake ranged characters work like melee, so Vlads lifesteal, Basher and OoV are better, etc.

Liquid Fire lets you attack as a ranged hero? Still, it isn't as good as a proper orb since you can only use it every 4 seconds
I'll demote take aim to a A as melee, I was too scared to test it out with orbs.

SKC

Brazil18828 Posts

May 25 2014 19:43 GMT

#27

On May 26 2014 04:39 LSB wrote:

Show nested quote +

It's better than some orbs like Glaives of Wisdom and Arcane Orb very often. The bonus are much better and it doesn't cost mana. For harassment you don't need to attack all the time and if you have something like Glaives you will spend too much mana if you use it too freely anyway. I may even take it over Poison Attack if I'm not a carry and in a shitty int body like Mortred, 20 mana is brutal. It's pretty damn good if you try it. It adds 150 damage on level 4 every 5 seconds in an Aoe.

LSB

United States5171 Posts

May 25 2014 19:55 GMT

#28

On May 26 2014 04:43 SKC wrote:

Show nested quote +

I'd much rather have poison attack. Liquid fire doesn't solve fact that as a melee hero you can be kited and have to be very close to the enemy to attack them. You might need to buy more stat giving items, but drums should work pretty well.

I'll at least rate it at B, it's still a solid skill but I don't see myself prioritizing it that early, I'll see if I can pick it up in some Ability draft games and test it out since I haven't used it myself and it's more based on my friends experiences with it

Fumanchu

Canada669 Posts

May 25 2014 19:57 GMT

#29

On May 26 2014 04:43 SKC wrote:

Show nested quote +

Poison Attack is vastly superior, it's not even close. The only upside of taking liquid fire over poison attack is that you can target buildings.

SKC

Brazil18828 Posts

May 25 2014 20:03 GMT

#30

On May 26 2014 04:55 LSB wrote:

Show nested quote +

Being kited is an issue for carries, not supportive characters. If you carry is being kited it's often an issue with the whole draft. Depends a lot on the pool. Poison Attack is the better skill the vast majority of the time, but there are still situations I would pick Liquid Fire over it, like I said if you have something like a Bloodseeker with Liquid Fire + Magic Missile + an ult that spends a reasonable amount of mana. But this is mostly theorycrafting, in an actual game you choice will more often be something like Liquid Fire vs Brain Sap or Ice Path.

SKC

Brazil18828 Posts

May 25 2014 20:05 GMT

#31

On May 26 2014 05:03 SKC wrote:

Show nested quote +

On May 26 2014 04:57 Fumanchu wrote:

Show nested quote +

Poison Attack is vastly superior, it's not even close. The only upside of taking liquid fire over poison attack is that you can target buildings.

With some bodies you have no mana to use any other skill if you pick Poison Attack and you are not farming. Of course it's a much better orb, but Ability Draft is very situational. Grow is much better than Fury Swipes but I've picked Fury Swipes over it.

Fumanchu

Canada669 Posts

May 25 2014 20:27 GMT

#32

Grow vs Fury swipes is actually debatable depending on the situation. I really don't want to come off as a condescending ass here, but there are no situations in which you should take LF over PA unless you are dominantly a pushing hero. The mana cost isn't a huge drawback even on low int gain heroes, unless you are quite new to the game.

Even though the impact of both spells drop off the later the game goes on, PA still retains value through its 40% slow.

SKC

Brazil18828 Posts

May 25 2014 20:32 GMT

#33

On May 26 2014 05:27 Fumanchu wrote:
Grow vs Fury swipes is actually debatable depending on the situation. I really don't want to come off as a condescending ass here, but there are no situations in which you should take LF over PA unless you are dominantly a pushing hero. The mana cost isn't a huge drawback even on low int gain heroes, unless you are quite new to the game.

Even though the impact of both spells drop off the later the game goes on, PA still retains value through its 40% slow.

On a lot of heroes you want to be able to use you ability twice early game. Like leveling stats on Leoric or Sven. Poison Attack means you can't do that. Liquid Fire is free. I don't think I've ever had to choose between them, I'm just saying a lot of people underestimate the LF in the lanem and in this mode winning lanes win games. Glaives vs Liquid Fire would be a much fairer match up, but I still think there are situations where Liquid Fire would be better than Poison Attack.

Either way comparing orbs isn't even that useful in actual games. 99% of the time the choice is between an orb and another type of skill.

TheYango

United States47024 Posts

May 25 2014 20:44 GMT

#34

We've talked about this before, but honestly I think the biggest downside of Liquid Fire is that you have to level it for it to be good, whereas Poison Attack and Glaives give their predominant benefit at the first rank.

LSB

United States5171 Posts

May 25 2014 21:03 GMT

#35

On May 26 2014 05:32 SKC wrote:

Show nested quote +

That's the point of a tier list, if you have a choice between Poison attack and Liquid fire, a tier list is supposed to guide you.

In addition Liquid fire doesn't give you the solo kill potential that Poison Attack/Frost Arrows does. I can see your argument if we are deciding between burning spears and poison attack, but orbs are just way better than Liquid fire

rabidch

United States20289 Posts

May 26 2014 08:43 GMT

#36

you forgot sticky + rot, which makes rot not F (its more like D, situational anyway)

goody153

44176 Posts

May 26 2014 10:39 GMT

#37

On May 26 2014 17:43 rabidch wrote:
you forgot sticky + rot, which makes rot not F (its more like D, situational anyway)

sticky + quell spray works as well

rabidch

United States20289 Posts

May 26 2014 11:16 GMT

#38

On May 26 2014 19:39 goody153 wrote:

Show nested quote +

sticky + quell spray works as well

works, but its not really worth mentioning versus rot. rot ticks every 0.2 seconds, which makes every stack do 50/75/100/125 damage per second, which is utterly ridiculous.

goody153

44176 Posts

May 26 2014 11:57 GMT

#39

On May 26 2014 20:16 rabidch wrote:

Show nested quote +

works, but its not really worth mentioning versus rot. rot ticks every 0.2 seconds, which makes every stack do 50/75/100/125 damage per second, which is utterly ridiculous.

but you die with rot

and it depends on your hero if the hero has huge HP and strength gain while using quill spray reduces your chances of dying and you can kite better than rot ..

i think DS ion shell would work better

GGitsJack

New Zealand426 Posts

May 26 2014 12:12 GMT

#40

I know voodoo restoration works with overload / arcane aura. Anyone know if it works with aftershock or fiery soul?

SKC

Brazil18828 Posts

May 26 2014 15:38 GMT

#41

On May 26 2014 20:57 goody153 wrote:

Show nested quote +

but you die with rot

and it depends on your hero if the hero has huge HP and strength gain while using quill spray reduces your chances of dying and you can kite better than rot ..

i think DS ion shell would work better

You can't even compare sticky napalm with rot and sticky napalm with quill spray. Who cares if you take a little bit of damage when your enemy dies in 3s. Quill spray is also behind other worse combos like dark pact and diabolict edict. A 3s CD skill is not that broken with it.

On May 26 2014 21:12 GGitsJack wrote:
I know voodoo restoration works with overload / arcane aura. Anyone know if it works with aftershock or fiery soul?

It doesn't. All toggles work with Overload/Essence Aura, no toggles work with the other similar skills.

Taters_

Finland123 Posts

May 26 2014 17:15 GMT

#42

On May 26 2014 20:57 goody153 wrote:

Show nested quote +

but you die with rot

and it depends on your hero if the hero has huge HP and strength gain while using quill spray reduces your chances of dying and you can kite better than rot ..

i think DS ion shell would work better

sticky with pretty much any dot is good. And if rot is in the pool so is flesh heap, but it's not actually even needed you won't be rotting for ages when u have even a couple of stacks of napalm on the target.

Pazuzu

United States632 Posts

May 26 2014 17:33 GMT

#43

my friends are always trying to get me to play ability draft.....maybe ill swipe one of those broken combos and finally give in to their demands...>:D

Phelix

1931 Posts

May 26 2014 18:18 GMT

#44

Do you guys think that Mana Shield and Fiery Soul combo is good? Almost permanent move speed and attack speed bonus must be nice, but I guess those two picks are weak with two semi-passive abilities. It's fun when I get it, makes it a lot easier in the laning stage.

TheYango

United States47024 Posts

May 26 2014 18:25 GMT

#45

On May 26 2014 20:57 goody153 wrote:

Show nested quote +

but you die with rot

and it depends on your hero if the hero has huge HP and strength gain while using quill spray reduces your chances of dying and you can kite better than rot ..

i think DS ion shell would work better

Sticky+0.1/0.2s tick DoTs is specifically broken. Anything that ticks 1s or on cast like Quill Spray or normal DoTs simply is not comparable.

Between 0.1s tick DoTs (Shackles, Dark Pact, Rot, Ion Shell, Mystic Flare, etc.), which one is the most broken for your particular game depends on your base model and skill pool. Rot has the distinct advantage that it costs no mana, so you can do shit like 1-2 stack Napalm + 1-2s Rot tick to flashfarm with virtually zero cost.

If you really care about the self-damage, you can just leave Rot at rank 1 and level your 3rd skill, because you really just need the damage ticks to trigger Napalm every 0.2s and apply the slow--the damage of the other ranks is pretty minor compared to the damage rate of Napalm.

goody153

44176 Posts

May 26 2014 18:31 GMT

#46

On May 27 2014 00:38 SKC wrote:

Show nested quote +

Idk never underestimate rot dude .. it only works on pudge because he got insane HP even with insane HP it still drowns you to the drain .. well it works if your hero has high HP like balanar or centaur you know the standard 1k hp at level 6 .. and you have to remember you have to stack napalm before you can go near and rot people it takes time .. i'd rather have quell spray despite lesser damage but you can safely damage than risky rot ..

Or maybe i am overestimating and completely wrong but just from what i observed rot is succesful due to the following reasons. Pudge has high hp and str gain. Rot cost nothing and he has ook. Without hook it's very hard to go near the enemy without the opponent doing something even with napalm unless you have high MS. And there is no hero that i can think of that has high MS and high HP.

TheYango

United States47024 Posts

May 26 2014 18:35 GMT

#47

Pudge has to level Rot because he doesn't have Napalm to trigger it. Napalm+Rot is such that if you really think the self-damage is bad for your base model, it still works with rank 1 Rot, which is miniscule self damage for monstrous damage to Napalmed enemies still.

Napalm+0.1/0.2s DoTs is a completely different level of broken. If you can get Napalm with any of the 0.1s/0.2s tick DoTs, you simply don't consider any of the other skills in the pool.

goody153

44176 Posts

May 26 2014 18:38 GMT

#48

Hmmm maybe i should try it on wc3 dota just to see .. finally a reason to play wc3 dota again besides techies :D but yeah if most of you guys believe it's fine .. then i should be wrong most likely

TheYango

United States47024 Posts

May 26 2014 18:45 GMT

#49

It doesn't work in War3 DotA because Napalm has a damage-based trigger threshold, so it fails to trigger on DoTs that trigger in small amounts like Rot or Ion Shell.

It specifically works in DotA 2 because Valve didn't use a damage-based threshold for Napalm, but rather hard-coded the exceptions like Radiance and Orb of Venom. In normal play this has minimal difference, it specifically affects ability draft because of how you can get Napalm with these skills.

LSB

United States5171 Posts

May 26 2014 20:11 GMT

#50

On May 26 2014 17:43 rabidch wrote:
you forgot sticky + rot, which makes rot not F (its more like D, situational anyway)

Had it in there, accidentally taken it out.

On May 27 2014 03:18 Phelix wrote:
Do you guys think that Mana Shield and Fiery Soul combo is good? Almost permanent move speed and attack speed bonus must be nice, but I guess those two picks are weak with two semi-passive abilities. It's fun when I get it, makes it a lot easier in the laning stage.

The combo works? I know someone grabbed voodoo restoration and Fiery Soul and did nothing with it recently in a game I played.

I think max attack speed is far superior on a melee character since you can pair a basher with it. It's a really good combo, but not completely broken

SKC

Brazil18828 Posts

May 26 2014 20:19 GMT

#51

On May 27 2014 05:11 LSB wrote:

Show nested quote +

Had it in there, accidentally taken it out.

Show nested quote +

No it doesn't work, but any low CD + fiery soul is a broken combo on any character. Low mana cost spells like Plague Wards or Quill Spray are the best ones. Shukuchi is hilarious but you shouldn't be able to get that. Blink is also pretty crazy.

SKC

Brazil18828 Posts

May 26 2014 20:29 GMT

#52

On May 27 2014 03:25 TheYango wrote:

Show nested quote +

I would say Rot and Ion Shell are clear winners. Which one is better depends if you have mana, Ion shell does is faster but you kill quickly enough with Rot for the no mana cost to be meaningful. But I don't think I would ever replace either of them with the others.

Manijak

Slovenia112 Posts

May 26 2014 22:37 GMT

#53

Nice list, but for the most of the S ranked abilities I would say it's highly situational (overrated imo). A lot of the S ranked abilities are frequently picked first and people tend to keep stacking them with other passives. While that is great in theory and has great late game potential it rarely goes that way. From my experiance stuns and disables (or just spells with low cd and high damage) tend to win more games than for example Tidebringer or Focusfire.

SKC

Brazil18828 Posts

May 26 2014 22:59 GMT

#54

On May 27 2014 07:37 Manijak wrote:
Nice list, but for the most of the S ranked abilities I would say it's highly situational (overrated imo). A lot of the S ranked abilities are frequently picked first and people tend to keep stacking them with other passives. While that is great in theory and has great late game potential it rarely goes that way. From my experiance stuns and disables (or just spells with low cd and high damage) tend to win more games than for example Tidebringer or Focusfire.

Focus Fire doesn't win games, solid stuns are ussually better. Tidebringer on ranged definatelly can. Also, just because you picked either of them doesn't mean you should keep picking passives. Fury Swipes + stun is much better than Fury Swipes + crit. Ussually if you pick a carry that needs a couple of items to start being decent, and it doesn't win the game singlehandely by that point, you probally shouldn't have built a carry. I do think that the most common mistake people do is drafting useless carries.

The thing is, if you pick a broken skill like Chemical Rage or Grow and all your other teammates try to build worse carries with suff like Coup de Grace or bashes, while your opponents pick all disables, you lose. It's a game mode where you depend a lot on what your teammates do, so it can be quite random if you don't stack.

Phelix

1931 Posts

May 26 2014 23:29 GMT

#55

On May 27 2014 05:19 SKC wrote:

Show nested quote +

Right, sorry. I believe that got fixed in a patch that affected Fiery Soul. Shows how much I know about ability draft that a I have not played in a while.

ykl

Malaysia541 Posts

May 28 2014 04:08 GMT

#56

Hero list is lacking Disruptor as far as I can tell. I'm pretty sure I got him before in one of my drafts.

On the spell tiering:
Rearm is a little bit too situational to your base hero model and your other skills to be S-rank.

There seems to be a little biased tilt to physical defensive passives (blur, craggy exterior, dragon's blood, all B) as compared to magical defensive passives (flesh heap, spell shield, both C). They're all fairly situational (read:terrible) and should be ranked the same. Backtrack is pretty good spell though.

Yurie

11875 Posts

May 28 2014 06:23 GMT

#57

Since this is a general tier list. How about tiers on heroes? Some heroes are just plain bad in the mode.

Tulanwarrior

Malaysia219 Posts

May 28 2014 07:12 GMT

#58

gosh should have read this thread before playing AD... just drafted Eclipse first 0.0

ZetaPulse

Canada59 Posts

May 28 2014 09:00 GMT

#59

On May 28 2014 15:23 Yurie wrote:
Since this is a general tier list. How about tiers on heroes? Some heroes are just plain bad in the mode.

Listing some notable heroes:

Alchemist: D - Garbage stat gain
Bane: B - Above average base damage, movement speed, and starting stats
Batrider: C - Garbage base damage
Centaur Warrunner: S - Strength
Clinkz: D - Garbage base damage and stat gain
Crystal Maiden: F - Garbage everything
Dark Seer: B
Enchantress: D - Clinkz tier
Gyrocopter: B
Legion Commander: A
Naga Siren: A
Night Stalker: S - Double Aghs upgrade
Pugna: B - High movement speed and intelligence gain, but very squishy
Silencer: S - Innate intelligence steal, Buffed agility gain
Skywrath Mage: B - Pugna tier
Timbersaw: C - Melee hero with no armor
Tiny: C - Melee hero with no armor - Above average base damage - Bad agility and intelligence gain
Treant Protector: S - Draft an orb, win game (120dmg searing arrows) - Good stat gain
Visage: C - Very squishy
Weaver: D - Combination of Clinkz and Crystal Maiden while trading range for damage
Windrunner: A - Great BAT and attack animation

Strength Heroes: B
Agility Heroes: C
Intelligence Heroes: B
http://dota2.gamepedia.com/Table_of_Hero_attributes

Belisarius

Australia6231 Posts

May 28 2014 09:15 GMT

#60

I don't feel a hero tier list is needed because there's nothing it actually does for you. You can't pick them; if you're stuck with CM, knowing that she's an F helps you not at all.

I suppose a list of applications might be useful. Like, int heroes who are surprisingly okay to carry with, str/agi who have reasonable manapools/cast animations, that kind of thing.

LSB

United States5171 Posts

May 28 2014 17:26 GMT

#61

I don't want to include too much because it might create a perception that if you have a good body you should be a 'carry'. And if you have a bad body you should be a 'support'. You should always grab S-teir abilities no matter your body, I played a game where I was CM and grabbed chemical rage, it didn't stop me from 1v5ing.

Personally I like Pugna, I like int gain because it allows me to grab three spammy spells and use them early without much items. Certainty I will have to build HP afterwards.

But it may be important to note heroes that do get double ags upgrades, or have interactions with spells (void). Does tiny still get the double ags upgrade or was that purely cosmetic?

I also added that "Chemical Rage is the best standalone skill in the game".

It is great early game as it gives you regen and helps you farm (especially after the whole maelstorm change), you can easily support multiple nukes on any body. And lategame it is a ridiculously scary skill.

TheYango

United States47024 Posts

May 28 2014 18:16 GMT

#62

Batrider: C - Garbage base damage

It's not really base damage that's the model's problem, and I'd arguably put it lower than a C. His model has below-average MS, low attack range, and--probably most crippling--has low innate vision range to compensate the hero normally having Firefly to give him flying vision. Having 1200 vision range when everyone else has 1800 can screw you over a lot of times, especially since unlike Night Stalker, the tradeoff for it isn't inherently part of the model.

It's saving grace is having pretty good base stats/stat gains, but a lot of the other inherent properties of the model are pretty damning.

Treant Protector: S - Draft an orb, win game (120dmg searing arrows) - Good stat gain

Also worth noting that transformation skills override your BAT, so getting something like Chemical Rage or Shapeshift negates his 1.9 BAT.

Sn0_Man

Tebellong44238 Posts

May 28 2014 18:27 GMT

#63

Spirit breaker deserves a mention on that list as a mini-tree with more base HP and armor. A-tier if a bit slow without his aura.

TheYango

United States47024 Posts

May 28 2014 18:30 GMT

#64

Yeah, SB's base stats are amazing. The low BAT is annoying, but as I mentioned with Tree, you can get around this with a transformation skill.

Sn0_Man

Tebellong44238 Posts

May 28 2014 18:31 GMT

#65

Showing up in lane with a stout shield, 750 hp and 6 armor is just so unjust.

E: do you get random gold in AD? I forget. I mean, you random a hero sorta

LSB

United States5171 Posts

May 28 2014 18:38 GMT

#66

On May 29 2014 03:31 Sn0_Man wrote:
Showing up in lane with a stout shield, 750 hp and 6 armor is just so unjust.

E: do you get random gold in AD? I forget. I mean, you random a hero sorta

Unfortunately you don't

On May 29 2014 03:16 TheYango wrote:
Also worth noting that transformation skills override your BAT, so getting something like Chemical Rage or Shapeshift negates his 1.9 BAT.

Added note to Shapeshift

SKC

Brazil18828 Posts

May 28 2014 19:06 GMT

#67

Silencer deserves an S+++. Other heroes are more limited to what they can do, like Tree or SB are great if you get orbs, PL can be ridiculous lategame or with spells like God's Strenght, but they are still melee and need items for mana intensive builds. Silencer is just ridiculous.

OD is also a great overall body that wasn't mentioned. Razor is really bad. Clinkz stats aren't terrible with good range and great agi gain, it's just his str that is atrocious.

Getting a transformation skill to fix you BAT is good but not really reliable. The odds of being able to do that aren't exactly stellar.

On body specific powers, the most important ones are Silencer getting int, Void walking on Chrono and NS getting vision with Aghs. You can get 4 heat seeking missiles with Aghs as well as the upgraded ult, but it's not a skill you end up picking most of the time anyway. Aghs is tied to Grow, not Tiny, that's why any hero gets the cleave. Visage is pretty bad because of the lower magic reduction.

TheYango

United States47024 Posts

May 28 2014 19:44 GMT

#68

Night Stalker also has better-than-average vision even without Agha, since 1200 day + 1800 night vision is better than 1800 day 800 night. BH also has 1800/1000 vision and given his high base armor, 315 base MS, and decent stat gains can also be a decent base model. Sniper has 1800/1000 vision but this isn't a deal-breaker for his model really. Slark has full 1800/1800 vision but this doesn't really outweigh his extremely poor stat growths.

crunchbite

Australia70 Posts

May 28 2014 20:12 GMT

#69

My friend got Impetus and Take aim once, but the extra attack range did not seem to have an effect on the damage. Is it not easily noticable or does it not work? I could probably pull up the replay if anyone wants it to check.

SKC

Brazil18828 Posts

May 28 2014 20:13 GMT

#70

On May 29 2014 05:12 crunchbite wrote:
My friend got Impetus and Take aim once, but the extra attack range did not seem to have an effect on the damage. Is it not easily noticable or does it not work? I could probably pull up the replay if anyone wants it to check.

There is no reason why it wouldn't work. It checks the position on both heroes, even just moving back and forth or blinking change the damage. You were probally just overestimating how much damage it should do.

Are you talking about a melee hero?

Sn0_Man

Tebellong44238 Posts

May 28 2014 20:15 GMT

#71

The damage is calculated by how far away the enemy is thats all.

Note that Impetus has a set cast range when manual casting so if you have MORE range than that (aka with take aim), you may wish to use autocast.

SKC

Brazil18828 Posts

May 28 2014 20:20 GMT

#72

Yeah, if you are not actually attacking at 1k range, it wont do more damage, but that should look fairly obvious ingame. The combo is also pretty meaningless for melee, since you attack at around the same range you get from just manually casting the orb, they don't add up.

Logo

United States7542 Posts

May 28 2014 20:32 GMT

#73

Anchor Smash seems like it could be B ranking in 6.81 if you're already a melee model. A 4s CD 60% dmg reduction that deals 225 damage is pretty decent. The fact that you can pair the ability with an armor reduction ability for reasonably high damage or use it to clear ancient stacks really early seems valuable.

QUEENT

Canada53 Posts

May 29 2014 07:59 GMT

#74

I feel like Overpower+(Nethertoxin/Flak Cannon) for ranged deserve some mention in the 'Other combos' section. I've won several games on the back of them with just phase boots and random other crap on a mix of ranged heroes from Gyro to Furion. They're not even that mana-intensive either.

Gowerly

United Kingdom916 Posts

May 29 2014 10:39 GMT

#75

Does mana shield still proc fiery soul? That one was always insane. Permanent super attack/move speed for no mana cost.

Logo

United States7542 Posts

May 29 2014 14:28 GMT

#76

On May 29 2014 16:59 QUEENT wrote:
I feel like Overpower+(Nethertoxin/Flak Cannon) for ranged deserve some mention in the 'Other combos' section. I've won several games on the back of them with just phase boots and random other crap on a mix of ranged heroes from Gyro to Furion. They're not even that mana-intensive either.

Now that overpower isn't a UAM it should just be incredibly strong in almost any pool for ranged heroes, possibly even some melee kits. Searing Arrows, Glaives of Wisdom, Impetus, Arcane Orb, Burning Spear, Chilling Touch, or Mana Break would be all pretty good with overpower.

SKC

Brazil18828 Posts

May 29 2014 14:54 GMT

#77

On May 29 2014 23:28 Logo wrote:

Show nested quote +

You are thinking of Fury Swipes. Overpower is worse, but still pretty good.

Logo

United States7542 Posts

May 29 2014 15:25 GMT

#78

On May 29 2014 23:54 SKC wrote:

Show nested quote +

You are thinking of Fury Swipes. Overpower is worse, but still pretty good.

Er.. yeah, I always associate Overpower with Fury Swipe's changes for some reason. But still the point stands that Overpower should be good with any orb that's a flat or stacking damage boost like the ones I mentioned.

LSB

United States5171 Posts

May 29 2014 16:09 GMT

#79

On May 29 2014 05:32 Logo wrote:
Anchor Smash seems like it could be B ranking in 6.81 if you're already a melee model. A 4s CD 60% dmg reduction that deals 225 damage is pretty decent. The fact that you can pair the ability with an armor reduction ability for reasonably high damage or use it to clear ancient stacks really early seems valuable.

Forgot about the whole ancient stacks thing, I'll upgrade it to a B

On May 29 2014 19:39 Gowerly wrote:
Does mana shield still proc fiery soul? That one was always insane. Permanent super attack/move speed for no mana cost.

No. Toggle abilities don't work with fiery soul. You can still get it with a low cooldown ability.

Overpower is very good for a ranged hero. I'll make a note of it

Belisarius

Australia6231 Posts

May 30 2014 02:01 GMT

#80

Overpower + flak counts each additional target as an attack, doesn't it? So it's gone instantly.

I agree overpower is strong on ranged heroes in general, but I'm pretty sure that specific combo is a fail.

QUEENT

Canada53 Posts

May 30 2014 06:18 GMT

#81

On May 30 2014 11:01 Belisarius wrote:
Overpower + flak counts each additional target as an attack, doesn't it? So it's gone instantly.

I agree overpower is strong on ranged heroes in general, but I'm pretty sure that specific combo is a fail.

I looked into it and found this: http://dev.dota2.com/showthread.php?t=133910

On Gyrocopter at least the flak projectiles are slow enough so that, while they count down the overpower when they hit, you can usually get several attacks off in the meantime which will still flak, so it's not really a fail combo if you've got a situation like that.

Belisarius

Australia6231 Posts

May 30 2014 07:35 GMT

#82

Yeah that's the one.

You're right, if you have it on lina or something you might even get the whole stack off before anything hits. If you're wisp or even like WD it's not so great. At the very least you have to be mindful of your positioning, because if there's a creepwave next to you they eat all the stacks asap and it does nothing.

Taters_

Finland123 Posts

May 30 2014 09:31 GMT

#83

On May 30 2014 16:35 Belisarius wrote:
Yeah that's the one.

You're right, if you have it on lina or something you might even get the whole stack off before anything hits. If you're wisp or even like WD it's not so great. At the very least you have to be mindful of your positioning, because if there's a creepwave next to you they eat all the stacks asap and it does nothing.

Flak has no target limits, it hits all enemy units in the 1000 range around the caster. The good thing with overpower + flak is the sudden burst of 6 autoattacks on everything though without dmg behind those attacks it's nothing special.
Also they're at least in my mind different types of skills that can work together to some extend, but benefit more paired with other skills that buff their strength.
For instance I'd say flak cannon is in the same category as enchant totem or tidebringer in the sense that you have a limited number of attacks that you want to do as much dmg as possible in the limited window so buffing your right-click dmg with things like crit or flat dmg increases like lunar blessing even will benefit you greatly.
With overpower on the other hand you have good constant dmg even though it also has a limited window, it's still quite spammable so it would fall in the same category as say strafe, maybe alch ult and others, so you'd want to increase your constant dmg with orbs and stackable dmg sources. Burning spears, fury swipes and nethertoxin especially work very well with overpower in that regard. Also you might want to consider what heromodel you have to play with picking overpower, if the hero has a poor BAT overpower can be a bit underwhelming. Tried it with a treant once, and you do get more attacks of with it, but the swings take ages still.

Taters_

Finland123 Posts

May 30 2014 10:05 GMT

#84

OP might also want to make a sidenote on Marksmanship to make sure you know your hero's attack range if you pick it, even if it's a ranged agi hero. Gyro, Luna and Venge all have their attack range shorter or at the same mark as the deactivation range is. So without take aim you won't be able to use it fully.

QUEENT

Canada53 Posts

May 30 2014 11:52 GMT

#85

On May 30 2014 18:31 Taters_ wrote:

Show nested quote +

We're talking about burning overpower stacks. There's a bug whereby projectiles landing on non-main targets due to flak reduces your remaining overpower charges. If your flak projectiles are slow (like gyro's), then you can still get off many of the overpower shots before the flak projectiles land and burn all your overpowers.

Also I don't think that flak and overpower lack synergy as you're suggesting. Both benefit very strongly from direct damage items. Sure, overpower works well with nethertoxin and fury swipes, but it also work really well with flak. It just depends on whether the single target damage or the AOE is better for your game. At level 8/9 having up to 6x your right click damage in 1000 AOE that comes out in around a second is pretty damn powerful. Even with just phase and aquila on Gyrocopter that's around 600 damage.

In general Overpower is much less exciting on melee heroes, regardless of their BAT. I would go so far as to say that on a melee hero it's likely not even worth picking early unless for some reason you're going to get a powerful orb or the like with it as well.

LSB

United States5171 Posts

May 30 2014 15:55 GMT

#86

On May 30 2014 19:05 Taters_ wrote:
OP might also want to make a sidenote on Marksmanship to make sure you know your hero's attack range if you pick it, even if it's a ranged agi hero. Gyro, Luna and Venge all have their attack range shorter or at the same mark as the deactivation range is. So without take aim you won't be able to use it fully.

Good point. Added

"Marksmanship is a very solid ability. 80 Agility is insane. However due to the fact that the attack range is a 400 AOE, a lot of heros cannot use the ability. Unless you have a ranged orb (not liquid fire), marksmanship is only good on (Drow Ranger, Clinkz, Medusa, Mirana, Viper, Sniper, Razor (475 range), Venomancer (450 range), Weaver (425 Range). )"

Can someone help me with Lifebreak instakill combos? Like how much magic boost from other skills in needed?

I'm getting Lifebreak + Decrypify + Ags + Ethereal blade needed to instagib.
Or LIfebreak + Decrypify + Natural Order + Ags for near instagib.

It doesn't seem practical

Rainling

United States456 Posts

May 30 2014 17:41 GMT

#87

Thanks for doing this! Would it be possible for you to make a list from highest to lowest tier, disregarding heroes? It would be nice to get a broader overview rather than a case-by-case basis for every hero.

SKC

Brazil18828 Posts

May 30 2014 17:54 GMT

#88

On May 31 2014 00:55 LSB wrote:

Show nested quote +

It's not practical. The best "one shot" combo is Enchant Totem + Walrus Punch (or similar worse skills like Jinada), followed by just having a shitton of nukes, like Decrepfy + Finger of Death/Laguna Blade + other 2 nukes.

Saying Marksmanship is good on 4xx attack heroes is a bit of a stretch, even if it technically works.

calh

537 Posts

May 31 2014 05:50 GMT

#89

Why is Sven cleave worse than battlefury?

LSB

United States5171 Posts

May 31 2014 17:22 GMT

#90

On May 31 2014 14:50 calh wrote:
Why is Sven cleave worse than battlefury?

Battlefury provides regen and damage bonus. It's just a reminder that you'll need more than just the skill if you want to farm jungle.

It's a decent late game skill, but compared to something like a simple nuke, for the early game and early farming you'd be much better off with the nuke

Fawkes

Canada1935 Posts

June 07 2014 04:11 GMT

#91

Sticky Napalm + Rupture seems to have an effect, even if the target is not moving. Don't know if this was ever mentioned anywhere.

LSB

United States5171 Posts

June 10 2014 20:14 GMT

#92

On June 07 2014 13:11 Fawkes wrote:
Sticky Napalm + Rupture seems to have an effect, even if the target is not moving. Don't know if this was ever mentioned anywhere.

Wait, how in the world is this supposed to work? Can anyone confirm this?

pingithefrosty

Hungary1 Post

June 13 2014 19:03 GMT

#93

http://dotametrics.wordpress.com/2014/06/11/random-ability-draft-hero-win-rates/

here is the hero tier list by phanpasmal

Sn0_Man

Tebellong44238 Posts

June 13 2014 19:18 GMT

#94

On June 14 2014 04:03 pingithefrosty wrote:
http://dotametrics.wordpress.com/2014/06/11/random-ability-draft-hero-win-rates/

here is the hero tier list by phanpasmal

Wow thats pretty ownage although I feel like in saying that "intelligence is good" he's forgetting that int heroes have high int growth and int heroes are (generally) ranged heroes, which IMO is a huge deciding factor. Combined with the fact that ranged agi heroes traditionally have some sort of huge drawback to prevent them from being "too good" generally via low range, or AWFUL stat growth, etc, it makes sense that int heroes would do well.

Sniper and gyro being so high is surprising to me though. I guess animations count for a lot

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