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On December 02 2013 23:03 evilfatsh1t wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2013 22:27 Nightmarjoo wrote:
Why are people (in pubs and progames) still building Linken's on Weaver in grossly inappropriate scenarios?
Linken's is completely useless in most scenarios, but people act like it's a core item on him. Except in scenarios where he needs to exclusively split push like a Furion there's no reason to build it as a first item. My favourite games are the ones where Weaver goes Linken's when it does nothing for him and then builds a BKB after, because it's the item he actually needed to make first (and not the Linken's at all). The irony is that there are far more scenarios where BKB first is best, and yet that build seems uncommon. For a while the Chinese seemed to switch away from Linken's builds, but the games I've seen recently suggest they've reverted for some reason.
Why are people delaying good items pointlessly by 5k gold? because people watch pros and blindly copy item builds. i remember when treads on naix was completely normal, and personally i still like it more than phase, but nowadays you see every single naix in pubs going phase (drums). same thing with weaver
To be fair, Linkens isn't strictly a pro thing for Weaver. I've had a fair share of S&Y Lifestealers who fail to comprehend it's essentially a once-ahead-get-more-ahead item that proscene picked up to chase down heroes with Naix's DMG output and for survivability and mobility around the tier 3-4 area. Dota is trendy at all levels. 
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Yeah but I'm not just talking about random pubs, I'm talking about professional dota 2 players also. I spent half of MLG cringing and complaining loudly as Loda and Havost and every other Weaver made a Linken's when it made absolutely no sense to build one at all, much less as a first item.
And while I can definitely see the reasoning behind treads on Naix, from my personal experience at least I really think phase is superior at least initially. There's always something to buy than switching from phase to treads until you complete Abyssal, at which point it might make sense to switch to treads after you soldily have saved buyback provided you can count on your team to initiate and/or hold things in place to some degree.
Speaking of phase vs treads, I was impressed by a game I watched where a farmed-out-of-his-mind antimage lost to a horribly underfarmed spectre, so I went into an empty game with cheats and did some 1v1 tests. If I remember my results correctly it was something like 4 slotted spectre will always win handily vs 5 slotted am, but lose to 6 slotted am, but 5 slotted spectre barely loses to 6 slotted am while using phase, but when switching to agl treads (not str treads) easily defeated 6 slotted am. I don't think I was using Spectre's ult in the test either. I definitely consider phase to be the better opening boots for Spectre however else you build her. So that's the test I'm thinking of when I say switching from phase to treads late may actually be a really good idea.
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Lalalaland34504 Posts
On December 02 2013 22:02 Surprise.820 wrote:
Not really an important or helpful question, but on Lion, do you guys prefer to get Arcane boots and Hex maxed by LVL 9/10 or Tranqs and an early two points of Mana Drain?
Situational. In a pure support position when levels might be difficult, having an earlier maxed Hex can be a very important, but it varies from game to game.
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On December 02 2013 23:03 evilfatsh1t wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2013 22:27 Nightmarjoo wrote:
Why are people (in pubs and progames) still building Linken's on Weaver in grossly inappropriate scenarios?
Linken's is completely useless in most scenarios, but people act like it's a core item on him. Except in scenarios where he needs to exclusively split push like a Furion there's no reason to build it as a first item. My favourite games are the ones where Weaver goes Linken's when it does nothing for him and then builds a BKB after, because it's the item he actually needed to make first (and not the Linken's at all). The irony is that there are far more scenarios where BKB first is best, and yet that build seems uncommon. For a while the Chinese seemed to switch away from Linken's builds, but the games I've seen recently suggest they've reverted for some reason.
Why are people delaying good items pointlessly by 5k gold? because people watch pros and blindly copy item builds. i remember when treads on naix was completely normal, and personally i still like it more than phase, but nowadays you see every single naix in pubs going phase (drums). same thing with weaver
Even worse is that if you build away from the generally accepted 'standard build' (ie Linken's on weaver) you'll likely get yelled at for having a bad item build. I've even been yelled at for taking pro item builds in a situation where it's paid off in spades (most recently Blink on Clinkz) because it's not what people expect.
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United States47024 Posts
On December 02 2013 22:55 Surprise.820 wrote:
No it isn't, because for this case and a lot of others, people are afraid to try alternatives.
Itemization is quite difficult because correct itemization requires foresight into how you expect the rest of the game to play out. That kind of prediction is hard even for pros to make correctly.
On December 02 2013 23:49 Nightmarjoo wrote:
Speaking of phase vs treads, I was impressed by a game I watched where a farmed-out-of-his-mind antimage lost to a horribly underfarmed spectre, so I went into an empty game with cheats and did some 1v1 tests. If I remember my results correctly it was something like 4 slotted spectre will always win handily vs 5 slotted am, but lose to 6 slotted am, but 5 slotted spectre barely loses to 6 slotted am while using phase, but when switching to agl treads (not str treads) easily defeated 6 slotted am. I don't think I was using Spectre's ult in the test either. I definitely consider phase to be the better opening boots for Spectre however else you build her. So that's the test I'm thinking of when I say switching from phase to treads late may actually be a really good idea.
This isn't wrong, it's just that until you're 6-slotted, there's generally something better you could be doing with the ~1k gold you have to spend on switching Boots.
That is, Treads are definitively the better Boots for late-game man fighting, but for chasing/etc. Phase are still important, and the benefit of going from Phase to Treads even at that lategame point in time is pretty small for the cost.
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And by the time its mega-late you usually want travels anyway (although Spectre less than other heroes due to her ult).,
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On December 03 2013 00:54 Logo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2013 23:03 evilfatsh1t wrote:On December 02 2013 22:27 Nightmarjoo wrote:
Why are people (in pubs and progames) still building Linken's on Weaver in grossly inappropriate scenarios?
Linken's is completely useless in most scenarios, but people act like it's a core item on him. Except in scenarios where he needs to exclusively split push like a Furion there's no reason to build it as a first item. My favourite games are the ones where Weaver goes Linken's when it does nothing for him and then builds a BKB after, because it's the item he actually needed to make first (and not the Linken's at all). The irony is that there are far more scenarios where BKB first is best, and yet that build seems uncommon. For a while the Chinese seemed to switch away from Linken's builds, but the games I've seen recently suggest they've reverted for some reason.
Why are people delaying good items pointlessly by 5k gold? because people watch pros and blindly copy item builds. i remember when treads on naix was completely normal, and personally i still like it more than phase, but nowadays you see every single naix in pubs going phase (drums). same thing with weaver Even worse is that if you build away from the generally accepted 'standard build' (ie Linken's on weaver) you'll likely get yelled at for having a bad item build. I've even been yelled at for taking pro item builds in a situation where it's paid off in spades (most recently Blink on Clinkz) because it's not what people expect.
Yea when I first started playing Weaver, all my friends that I play DotA with would immediately say "Where's your Linken's!?!?" when they see I'd have Desolator or something first. Like ffs, how am I supposed to farm it when y'all put me in the solo offlane and I'm a position 2 or 3.
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When are the properties of a projectile or ability decided? When it hits, or when it's created?
For instance, let's say I'm playing Necrophos. I throw a projectile at someone when he's on low ground, but he's on the high ground when it hits. Does it have a chance to miss?
I throw a projectile, then Courier delivers me a +dmg item, then the projectile hits. Does it reflect the damage from the item?
I cast Death Pulse, then level up and rank up Death Pulse, then the projectile hits. Does it reflect the new rank?
I kill a guy with Sadist rank1, and get 10 stacks of the buff. Then I rank up Sadist. Does my buff reflect the new rank?
Thanks
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Your sadist buff won't change. The buff is placed on you and has a duration, ranking the skill doesn't affect that at all. Buffs that are placed on you for a duration don't check for ability level after they are originally placed.
AFAIK hit/miss chance is determined when the attack starts (easy case in point is windranger's windrun ability. If she casts after your projectile launches, she still gets hit. If you attack her when in windrun, it doesn't matter if it ends, you still miss).
Don't know when dmg is calculated.
I'm 99% sure the death pulse projectile is calculated at launch and levelling it up mid-flight won't change anything.
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On December 03 2013 00:57 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2013 22:55 Surprise.820 wrote:
No it isn't, because for this case and a lot of others, people are afraid to try alternatives. Itemization is quite difficult because correct itemization requires foresight into how you expect the rest of the game to play out. That kind of prediction is hard even for pros to make correctly.
Hey I didn't say it wasn't difficult, just confused as to why item choices are the hardest part of the game. Regardless, I agree with you entirely.
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Of all aspects of the game, item choices are by far the most situational of all the ones you do every game. It is also the most commonly underestimated one due to all the single itembuild guides and the trap of accidentally doing a perfect build once and always replicating afterwards.
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Is there a program that analyses replays and get data and stats from the game?
Like damage each player dealt, damage each skill dealt. Who killed who more and more stats? Something like SC2gears or something?
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The weavers I guess you refer to are all position 1 weavers as I havent seen any offlaning weavers for awhile. Most of the guys playing weaver see linkens as a ranged agility battlefury. They need massive mana regeneration to constantly spam all of their spells to maximize farm efficiency and pressure. I am not saying I agree Im just saying how I believe they see the item. It might not be the best item for them right at this moment but it is in their mind the item that will help them the most in the long run.
It is also a counter to being insta hexed which is a huge problem to deal with when playing weaver like carries in the lategame.
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On December 03 2013 10:56 Jotoco wrote:
Is there a program that analyses replays and get data and stats from the game?
Like damage each player dealt, damage each skill dealt. Who killed who more and more stats? Something like SC2gears or something?
after a game, there's some stats in the console if you check
these are what i remember
total damage dealt
total damage this player dealt to to this player
total heals
total damage to towers (not sure)
total time the hero was stunned during the game
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On December 02 2013 10:44 igotmyown wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2013 01:47 TheYango wrote:On December 01 2013 22:56 DW-Unrec wrote:On December 01 2013 02:54 TheYango wrote:
It's still true, because it evens out your main hit damage with the cleave damage. Without a QB with your BF, you kill a lot of camps 1-2 hits slower because the cleave damage kills your secondary targets faster than your main hit target.
This is most obvious with the black dragon ancients--with QB+BF you kill the small dragons on exactly the same hit you kill the big one. With just BF, the small dragons die slightly earlier so you spend a little bit longer hitting the big dragon with nothing to cleave. shouldn't you hit the smallar dragons first? they have less armour, which means more pure damage being dealt to the huge ass dragon Cleave doesn't use anyone's armor value in determining damage. Neither the main target nor the cleaved target's armor apply. That's the point, the main target does have armor reduction for himself, so ignoring armor does more damage (if you had 100% cleave).
Cleaved damage has absolutely nothing to do with armor.
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United States47024 Posts
On December 02 2013 10:44 igotmyown wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2013 01:47 TheYango wrote:On December 01 2013 22:56 DW-Unrec wrote:On December 01 2013 02:54 TheYango wrote:
It's still true, because it evens out your main hit damage with the cleave damage. Without a QB with your BF, you kill a lot of camps 1-2 hits slower because the cleave damage kills your secondary targets faster than your main hit target.
This is most obvious with the black dragon ancients--with QB+BF you kill the small dragons on exactly the same hit you kill the big one. With just BF, the small dragons die slightly earlier so you spend a little bit longer hitting the big dragon with nothing to cleave. shouldn't you hit the smallar dragons first? they have less armour, which means more pure damage being dealt to the huge ass dragon Cleave doesn't use anyone's armor value in determining damage. Neither the main target nor the cleaved target's armor apply. That's the point, the main target does have armor reduction for himself, so ignoring armor does more damage (if you had 100% cleave).
But you don't. As Blitzkrieg said, you'd need 31 armor for a single Battle Fury's cleave to actually do more damage to cleaved targets than the main target.
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Well you should hit the one with the lowest armor or lowest health when using your Tidebringer swipe.
Edit: Unless you have qb just remembered where it all started^^
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United States47024 Posts
QB doesn't matter--QB doesn't apply to the splash, only to the main target.
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Spent like 15 minutes searching this trying to find it in the general section lol what an idiot ><
Now for the question.
Pretty much all the steam builds for Necro are similar, with a few key difference, but for the most part, bloodstone, scepter, shivas are all pretty common. Can I ask why people dont stack damage and attack spead on necro? I realize they dont affect his Q or ultimate, but the reality is he puts out a good portion of his damage with auto attacking.
Seems like Shadow blade situationally, Assault Cuirass, Radiance, Deso, mkb would all be good options depending on the circumstance. Bloodstone is always good, and i think its for the HP, but it seems like regen based items like it are wasted on him given his regen ability from last hits.
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You build Necro tanky with lots of mana because his damage comes from his really low cooldown Q and his aura. What benefit does Necro have from stacking damage? None of his skills boost his auto attacks and his stat growth and base stats are nothing special. (Well the int growth is kind of nice I guess?)
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EPT
